I have gotten into all of the above schools (MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova) and want some of your opinions. Right now I am between NOVA and MSPP. I live in Miami so NOVA seems like a good fit for me but when I went to the MSPP interview I knew I would have to make a tough decision. The main reason holding me back from MSPP right now is their 2 half year internships I saw on their website in lieu of the full year internship. And to clarify, the Argosy University I was accepted to is the university located in Tampa, Fl.
HELP! MSPP, FIT, Argosy, Uni of Hartford, Nova
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If you do a search on the forum, you will come up with a plethora of threads about the above schools. You may not find a thread about the exact comparison of schools, but there should be enough info about each school to get a good feel. With that being said, there *might* be an MSPP v. NSU, as that seemed to ring a bell...I'm not sure though.
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I see this is your first post on this website. Knowing this, my guess is you are not aware of all of the threads over different types of programs (PhD versus PsyD) (University based versus Professional School based) (Research versus Clinical) etc... There are pluses and minues either way but I am also relatively new to this forum, so it is my perspective that most of this posters on this forum have a bias towards PhD, University, and Research oriented programs. Also, you probably are not aware of APA versus APA accredited programs and also about the current internship shortage and the requirement of most APA accredited doctoral programs requirement for APA accredited internship sites for their students.
I believe all of the programs you have been accepted by are all APA accredited PsyD programs so you don't have to worry about the non APA accredited part of the equation. If you are interested in clinical practice of psychology than you are on the right course by looking at PsyD programs. I've heard good things about all of these programs, so I don't believe you can go wrong and you are very fortunate to have these options to decide from.
I believe all of the programs you have been accepted by are all APA accredited PsyD programs so you don't have to worry about the non APA accredited part of the equation. If you are interested in clinical practice of psychology than you are on the right course by looking at PsyD programs. I've heard good things about all of these programs, so I don't believe you can go wrong and you are very fortunate to have these options to decide from.
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I interviewed and was accepted to MSPP and Nova as well, so congratulations! 😀
Just some considerations that have been floating through my head:
Where do you plan on working? MSPP has a fantastic reputation in the Northeast, but good luck finding people who have heard of it anywhere else. Same thing applies to Nova: some of my family live in the Southeast and they all know Nova has a great reputation, but I'm from the Northeast and no one seems to have heard of it.
MSPP seemed a little wishy-washy with their building situation. I had actually discussed this with other MSPP applicants at my Nova interview: they made it sound like they were in the process of the move to the building in Newton for the 2012 incoming year, but in fact nothing has been signed yet (I was told within the next two weeks at the early-decision interview and they told the same thing to the later interviewees). This means they wouldn't move until 2013. It also concerned me that on interview day there were no students around besides the one who interviewed me...
MSPP has an incredible amount of placements at prestigious institutions, however. And its faculty are well-regarded.
Also, think about what kind of population you want to work with. If I go to Nova, I would be going down their Psychodynamic path. Thing being, the types of people you will find in the Ft. Lauderdale and Miami areas aren't going to be very accepting of a psychodynamic approach to therapy. In this sense, I am considering other programs in more urban-based environments because of the focus I am aiming to acquire.
My supervisor tells me that in the end, every APA accredited program is going to give me the same basic training. What I need to look for are students and professors that I work well with. What was the feeling you got from meeting students at each program?
Just my $0.02! Best of luck!
Just some considerations that have been floating through my head:
Where do you plan on working? MSPP has a fantastic reputation in the Northeast, but good luck finding people who have heard of it anywhere else. Same thing applies to Nova: some of my family live in the Southeast and they all know Nova has a great reputation, but I'm from the Northeast and no one seems to have heard of it.
MSPP seemed a little wishy-washy with their building situation. I had actually discussed this with other MSPP applicants at my Nova interview: they made it sound like they were in the process of the move to the building in Newton for the 2012 incoming year, but in fact nothing has been signed yet (I was told within the next two weeks at the early-decision interview and they told the same thing to the later interviewees). This means they wouldn't move until 2013. It also concerned me that on interview day there were no students around besides the one who interviewed me...
MSPP has an incredible amount of placements at prestigious institutions, however. And its faculty are well-regarded.
Also, think about what kind of population you want to work with. If I go to Nova, I would be going down their Psychodynamic path. Thing being, the types of people you will find in the Ft. Lauderdale and Miami areas aren't going to be very accepting of a psychodynamic approach to therapy. In this sense, I am considering other programs in more urban-based environments because of the focus I am aiming to acquire.
My supervisor tells me that in the end, every APA accredited program is going to give me the same basic training. What I need to look for are students and professors that I work well with. What was the feeling you got from meeting students at each program?
Just my $0.02! Best of luck!
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Your supervsior is from a different era of psychology training then...
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My apologies! This was not to speak negatively of non-APA accredited programs. I had applied to all APA accredited programs and was just relaying his response to my inquiry about them.
Sorry for any misunderstanding. 🙂
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No problem and I wish you success beginning your doctoral studies.
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Sadly, this appears to be the case nowadays. Look at the various outcome measures available for each of the programs, with the most currently-pressing probably being APA-accredited internship placement rates. EPPP pass and licensure rates can also give some information, as can outcome placements (i.e., where are past graduates currently working). That should give you a head start on figuring out how students fare pre- and post-graduation.
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Actually the other side of the equation is not true either. APA accreditation was never meant to be a gold standard, above which programs can just relax. It is a minimal standard, which means that programs vary widely once they have met the standards for accreditation (many of which are often left up to a wide array of interpretation).
One example is MSPP encouraging students to do two years of part-time internship instead of a year of full-time, paid, accredited work. BTW, nc1112, this is a big red flag.
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And actually, MSPP does not require an internship to graduate. Students do another practicum (called an internship) in their 4th or 5th year and call it a day. Students can do an internship if they want to, but are not required to. I work with an MSPP student at my current practicum..her "internship." We do the same exact thing and I think she is only there about 5 or 6 more hours than I am each week.
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That does *NOT* sound like sufficient training. They they take the above path, do they just forgo the APPIC process then?
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Yes, this is my understanding.
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Yup. It's optional for the students. I know they have a dissertation requirement but I'm not sure of the intensity of that either.
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MSPP basically has a captured internship spread out over two years during the third and fourth years of study. UTSW does this as well as do some of the other professional schools. This does not imply that the process of these internship experiences is not high quality. I would have much rather been in a program where I did not have to participant in the APPIC process. This is really the model of how doctoral programming should be---that is to do your internship while you are in the program during year 3 and 4 and once you graduate after year 5 you begin your postdoctoral training. I agree with the concept of internship being optional and allowing for people to graduate with the doctorate degree and then doing the internship afterwards.
I think APA needs to look at changing the model of doctoral training to include programs like MSPP who have the internship spread out over two years during the third and fourth year of training. At one of my practicum sites there was a student from Walden University and they had practicums rotations of three months long over a year and then they qualified for internship application. She set up her year-long internship with a private practitioner and she is already finished and licensed. The program I am attending has three years of practicum and requires application for internship through APPIC. I would have basically been finished had I switched programs and finsihed up at Walden.
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From what I understand UT Southwestern is APA accredited and sends their students to reputable internship sites. I agree that having this model doesn't necessarily mean that there's a lack in the quality of experiences those students are having.
I should note that all of these internship sites are APA/CPA accredited (though not members of APPIC).
I should note that all of these internship sites are APA/CPA accredited (though not members of APPIC).
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True, UTSW is APA accredited but their students do no go through APPIC application as the UTSW students all do their internships at UTSW in a captured internships. No one else can apply to the UTSW APA accredited internships in the UTSW system except for UTSW students. Based on their practicums, all in the UTSW system they basically select which one they want to repeat for a year long internship, much like the MSPP internship part-time their third and fourth years. Most of the UTSW students do post docs at UTSW as well, so basically they can go through UTSW program without ever having to go outside their system before gaining licensure.
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No, the MSPP program does not have a captured internship. Students compete for placements along with other area schools, only the students from other schools are doing practica, not internship. The quality of training is in no way guaranteed.
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deleted176373
No question, look at the Match Statistics.
NOVA 77.4%
MSPP 51.8%
You're good at math, right?
NOVA 77.4%
MSPP 51.8%
You're good at math, right?
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What??? I had no idea about MSPP. That is crazy! How can they retain APA accreditation if they forgo the APPIC internship process?
Edit: Oh, wait, I just remembered that APA likes money.
Edit: Oh, wait, I just remembered that APA likes money.
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deleted176373
That's just matching for internship, finding a job comes after that... However, without an internship you cannot get licensed... How do you think that affects the overall job search?
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Unfortunately in many respects practicum and internship are one in the same. I have done two years of practicum rotation for 25-30 hours a week alongside students from other programs, Fielding, Walden, Argosy, SMU, UNT, and other program with students doing their internship in either counseling, counseling psychology, or clinical psychology. We are doing the same duties or responsibilities, except for they are working an additional day per week or 8 to 10 more hours per week than I was in my full-time practicum. We were both getting quality experiences and training but theirs was called an internship while mine was called a practicum.
Actually the whole system is somewhat flawed as internship responsibilities and roles should be different than practicum roles and responsibilities. I've even encountered practicum rotations at the same time that doctoral counseling students with the PhD degree and LPC-I or LMFT-I on intern status are being paid $40,000 and doing the same duties and responsibilities as the clinical psychology practicum student who is not paid and the clinical psychology interns who is paid $18,000 for their internship. What is wrong with this picture as the counseling PhD allows for LPC-I status so the independent practitioner may bill for their services and they are give more responsibility and sometime better cases due to their reimbursement status than the clinical psychology practicum student or intern.
Many of these LPC-I and LMFT finish up their PhD degree and lo an behold end up working at UTSW or other medical facility making $70,000 per year after finishing up their doctorate degree in 3-4 years and here I am in year 6 just getting ready to begin internship and I have two more years before I will be fully licensed.
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Where I work, I have students from APA internship and from programs who call it internship. I can say with certainty that those students who are not in the APA internship program definitely do not gain the same training. They receive less supervision, are used more as work horses, go to fewer didactics, and overall, are treated as practicum students rather than junior colleagues (meaning less respected, and less attention is paid to their training experience).
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This speaks to the quality of the 2 sites you have been trained in, and obviously, n=1 does not allow for such a global proclamation.
But, of course, we have come to expect this from you.
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Uh...I did not claim to imply that I am in agreement of such a system, but for most of us who do not have captured practicum or internship rotations similar to UTSW this is reality. Clinical psychology practicum and interns working side by side with LPC-I and LMFT-I completing their doctoral program and doing their internships at the same sites we are doing our practicum or internship.
You are in severe denial if you do not see this happening across the board in mental health training. To imply that the quality of sites is somehow inferior due to the cross breeding of Clinical Psychology, LPC, and LMFT students reflect a level naivete or narrowness of your training perspectives. UTSW has doctoral level LPC and LMFT who are coordinators of programs and very competent practitioners and they completed their doctorate at TWU or UNT and they are not from APA accredited programs but rather MFT or cacrep approved programs.
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1. In my internship, I do not have the same duties and job description as master level clinicians, If you do, then i feel sorry for you and your training.
2. Although I know they exist, my program did not approve practica sites where masters level folks are/would be interchangeable with myself. Apparently your program placed you in such places and I think that a shame and as sign of poor oversight of training.
I again think much of this difference has to do with your exposure to (and view of) the doctorate as some sort of advanced masters program and your lack of understanding about doctoral level training in traditional university based Ph.D. programs.
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They should be quite different. Practica is a place where you should build a strong foundation of training, develop your style, etc. The internship year is meant to provide regular didactics, offer more 'real life' type of training, and act as a capstone to your training. Working 25-30hr/wk at a practica site is WAAAY too much. That sounds like a site that is taking advantage of free labor. Graduate training needs to have a better balance than that.
That is a problem with the legislation around licensure and how insurance companies bill in response to the legislation. It is definitely not setup in our favor. However, if an LMFT is doing the same job you are...that is a problem of either the job not differentiating duties or the clinician not fighting to have a job on par with their training.
It is inferior...for a student training in clinical psychology to be a clinical psychologist. It is helpful to learn from different disciplines, but the vast majority of training needs to be tailored for clinical psychology students.
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Haha, exactly. 😉
OP, do any of the programs offer funding? AFAIK, U Hartford has the smallest cohort, and offers some limited funding, both pluses. They have the highest APA internship placement rate out of the schools you listed, too, which is a *major* plus.
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MSPP's pages state that a CASE STUDY is acceptable for their "doctoral project."
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/doctoral-project.asp
I checked their students' dissertations via the ProQuest diss search, and thankfully it appears most of the students from the recent disses I pulled actually do a research project. But, that it is not a requirement is insane.
Their FAQ and PsyD versus PhD pages appear to show some selective information dissemination, especially about internship.
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/psyd-vs-phd.asp
And the internship applicant numbers are mindblowing
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/outcomes.asp
I don't see on their page where they describe the actual process of the two-year internships. It does appear that this is somehow built into their program:
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/curriculum.asp
Yikes.
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/doctoral-project.asp
I checked their students' dissertations via the ProQuest diss search, and thankfully it appears most of the students from the recent disses I pulled actually do a research project. But, that it is not a requirement is insane.
Their FAQ and PsyD versus PhD pages appear to show some selective information dissemination, especially about internship.
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/psyd-vs-phd.asp
And the internship applicant numbers are mindblowing
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/outcomes.asp
I don't see on their page where they describe the actual process of the two-year internships. It does appear that this is somehow built into their program:
http://www.mspp.edu/academics/degree-programs/psyd/curriculum.asp
Yikes.
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This is the norm at every internship site where I interviewed, which includes my current location. Practicum students and interns often work in the same setting (which I suppose counts as side-by-side), but the levels of supervision and responsibility differ fairly significantly, as do the expectations from supervisors.
In my opinion, if you're an intern and doing the same things as doctoral practicum students, and especially as trainees in master's programs, then something is wrong with your internship site. Period.
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Case Study or single cell designs are very common in PsyD programs and they provide valuable information. My supervisor at my second practicum site did a single cell using ABA with a child having severe Autism. She completed her program at the Forest Institute and finished her Dissertation in two semesters. There is nothing restricting a case study as a dissertation.
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2010-2011 Internship #'s
Applicants: 174(!)
APA-Acred: 6 (3.4%)...they listed 4%.
APPIC: 0 (0%)
Unacred: 160 (91.9%)...they listed 96%. This is the 2 yr part-time option.
Paid: 50 (28.7%)...they wrote 30%.
They noted that students who applied to APPIC/APA acred. sites matched at 50%.
2009-2010 Internship #'s
Applicants: 125(!)
APA-Acred: 5 (4%)
APPIC: 0 (0%)
Unacred: 117 (93.6%) This is the 2 yr part-time option.
Paid: 38 (30%)
😱
Are you kidding me? It looks like they are having their students circumvent the ENTIRE match process, and instead students are going to sites that are not even APPIC members. To put this in perspective, they have put almost 300 students into the internship pool in TWO years. Let me type that again...almost 300 students, in two years. Of those almost 300 students, a total of 11 secured a spot through the match. This data supports my complaint that the internship imbalance is even far worse than the APPIC Match Stats suggest because there are hundreds of students that aren't even counted in it. Just based on this alone...NO ONE should consider MSPP, as they aren't even bothering with the match, which is a huge red flag.
From a licensure perspective that is short-sighted, but I think what is worse is that the vast majority of those spots are UNPAID. Talk about taking advantage of students....
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Case study =/= single case research.
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This needs to be shown to anyone who touts voluntary reduction of students as viable.
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That's what I was worrying as well. I'm generally a proponent of quantitative, larger-N, experimental designs for dissertation projects, although I suppose I could possibly be talked into single-case research. However, the cynic in me wonders if MSPP's "case study" is essentially just a glorified case summary combined with a basic lit review.
And yes, it's horrible that MSPP is pushing two-year, half-time, unpaid internship positions on its students. None of those descriptors is a positive, and one would have to guess that this is occurring at least in part because MSPP isn't preparing its students adequately to be competitive in the APPIC match (perhaps because they're turning out so many of them).
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They also allow "theoretical reviews" or whatever, so I doubt they mean anything other than case study.
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Given that they list 30% of their students secure paid internship, it sounds like they are squeezing out 2 years of free labor from hundreds of students...wow.
I'd be curious to see the average salary of that 30%.
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The more that comes out in this thread, the worse the program sounds. And I'm saying that while attempting to remain as objective and unbiased as possible.
Edit: As T4C mentioned, the substantial portion of what is basically free labor they're securing via two-year unpaid internships just seems unconscionable to me. I can understand wanting to ensure your students land an internship spot, but if they're having that hard a time getting so many students into APPIC spots, then stop training so many students, and instead start focusing on better-preparing trainees by re-allocating your resources to a smaller group of individuals.
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It is the practicum site that accepts interns and not the specific program a student may or may not be attending. These are students doing internships from both PsyD and PhD programs not just PsyD programs. Some of the interns from the PhD programs doing internships at these sites are from APA accredited programs but they did not match from the APPIC and their program did not require them to re-apply so they found a local internship. I actually did one of my practicum rotations and they had a number of BS degree students that went through the BCBA assistant training and they were basically involved doing similar activities as MS level practicum, doctoral level interns and post-doctoral interns at one of the agencies I did my practicum rotation during my second year. We were all involved in doing intakes, behavioral assessments, individual and group sessions, office based and home based sessions, and supervised by two doctoral level psychologists. We were all from different programs and the site met the requirements of our educational program regarding training and supervision. We had weekly group and individual supervision and weekly didactics. This was in a well respected Community Mental Health Center with million dollar grants for research.
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You just proved my point. I'm sorry your training site did not differentiate you or your training from masters level trainees. It shows.
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I actually had that written originally...but then I wasn't 100% sure they pay for the credits. I did see something that if they went over the amount of time set for the internships they have to pay 0.5 credits per semester.
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I'd say that if all those people are doing the exact same work, then either the interns aren't doing enough, or the BS- and MS-level folks are doing too much. Whatever the case, it just doesn't sound like a great training environment. But that's just my opinion.
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A strong single-case design should ideally involve multiple baselines (across subjects, setting, or behaviors), multiple treatment conditions, measurement of distal as well proximal outcomes, logging of external events, etc, as well as statistical analysis of results. If people are passing off, say, progress monitoring as an acceptable dissertation study, then just no, period. That being said, I work with a lot of SCR people (my [R1] department has probably one of the most prominent collections of SCR methodology faculty in the country), and all of the grad students I know who have focused on SCR have done meta-analyses of SCR articles for their dissertations. I don't know if the faculty would actually accept a single-case research study as a full diss or not, tbh.
FWIW, I've been involved with and published both group and single case research, and originally was pretty dismissive of SCR for the reasons many people are. I have to say, I have a lot more respect for SCR after seeing what truly methodologically rigorous SCR looks like, and also seeing that respected and well-trained SCR scholars look at individual SCR studies not as conclusive statements but more as steps forward to meta-analysis after a sufficient number of studies have been conducted and published. I'll probably always be a group researcher (or meta-analyzer 😉 ) first, but I think well-done single case research can and does make significant contributions to knowledge, especially when examined meta-analytically across studies.
Most people I've known have done correlational studies for their dissertations--I've only known two who actually did RCTs for their dissertations, and only one was a tx RCT, with a fairly small n (about 60). Tbh, while I love treatment RCTs, I really don't think they are practical for a diss due to the time and money required.The only way I could see one realistically working would either be a small pilot RCT, latching onto an advisor's already in-progress RCT, or having your only grant to do one and a willing to take a year or two extra (if not more!) to graduate. I always encourage people to use pre-collected data if they can, as I've known people who got incredibly delayed by recruitment issues. To paraphrase one of my mentors, your dissertation should be a solid, strong study, not the capstone of your career.
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Oh, trust me, I agree with everything you've said. I wasn't at all trying to appear to be dismissive of single-case research designs; quite the contrary, as for me, those are some of the more interesting studies I read, and they definitely provide a view that isn't capture by large-N research.
And yes, pre-collected data for a dissertation, if at all possible, is the way to go. My advisor essentially said the same thing as yours, although with his own sense of humor added in ("it's just your dissertation, you don't have to win the Nobel Prize with it").
Anybody on this site a student at MSPP who can tell us how they feel about the training they are getting? Do these concerns about MSPP make the choice between MSPP and Nova Southeastern's Psy.D programs an easy decision?
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deleted176373
Granted but that's not hideous in itself.
The Navy is circumventing the match process for the HPSP and USUHS students by running a captive APA accredited internship. Believe me, it's ridiculously rigorous. Circumventing the match with an APA accredited and high quality internship doesn't really bother me... but as you point out, that does not appear to be what is happening in this case.
I love this line :
"5th Year Optional APA/APPIC Internship (Full Time) Extended Internship Optional APA/APPIC Internship."
LMAO.
Then you can get the optional job in year 6.
