Help Save The Profession

[misery]

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DO Anes,

Thanks for taking up this cause. I really think we need someone with your leadership, tenacity, and status to help this move forward. I'm a MS3 and have since my first day in my DO school seen through the smoke and mirrors at my established COM, one intimately associated with this new enterprise.

The funny thing is I got my AOA membership card in the mail a couple weeks back. I immediately thought I should return to sender. But, this thread has given me a new idea. I'm going to send it tomorrow to the person mentioned in this thread with a note. Why do I need a membership card for an organization that doesn't represent the interests of its members. I encourage you all to do the same.

PM Me if I can help in any way

 

[Old_Mil]

Time to bump the most important Osteopathy related thread to grace the SDN message boards.

Everyone should give DO Anes a round of applause for playing point guard on this one.

 

[misery]

per above

 

[CatsandCradles]

If you would really like to save the profession, I think there are many other problems that need attention first. We need to tackle curriculum problems in "established" schools first. The laughable amount of education I've received in embryo and genetics comes to mind. Also, 3rd-year Family Practice clerkships based out of offices where the doctor does majority cash-only pain management is another issue that comes to mind. I'd also like to trade one of my required THREE months of rural rotations for a neurology rotation (but I guess neuro is not important??). Or perhaps I'm wrong and that pain.. err I mean Family Practice clerkship covered everything that particular M3 needs to know about neurology. I'm sure the rest of the DO schools out there aren't perfect either.

Good post and I even dare say good complaint - but I think DO Anes has had several related editorials in the JAOA about what you are talking about There was quite a lot angry responses to the letter I recall. But he does have interesting points.

Here's one of them: http://www.jaoa.org/cgi/content/full/106/5/252

 

[Playmakur42]

.

 

[DO Anes]

Of course, if a student wants a very good shot at getting that competitive plastics/radiology/neurosurgery/opthalmalogy residency available to only RVU students, then they must pay the tuition at RVU, which I assure you will charge as much as the market will bear.

Does anyone actually believe there are 300 additional residency slots in Colorado, much less slots in plastics/radiology/neuro, etc.? I grew up in Colorado and have practiced medicine there. The vast majority of hospitals in that state (outside of Denver) could barely support an internship, much less any sort of a residency. Neurosurgery/opthalmology? Time for a reality check.

 

[Krazykritter]

DO Anes,

I read your letter & now this month's response in the JAOA or The DO (I can't remember which one it was in for sure) & I thought that the Dean of RVU's response was completely skirting the issue. His response was so filled to the brim w/ idealism & wishful thinking that I got sick of reading it.

It seems that many in favor of RVU are unable to be objective about the situation & how it will be viewed by those outside the profession (let alone those in it). Its ties to the Carribean schools, viewed widely as diploma mills where only your credit is important, should not be overlooked the way that the Dean wants it to be.

Just curious as to your opinion on his response to your letter if you have a moment? Thanks.

 

[toothless rufus]

...I'm a MS3 and have since my first day in my DO school seen through the smoke and mirrors at my established COM, one intimately associated with this new enterprise...

Say what!!??? 😱

 

[Gene Genie]

Does anyone actually believe there are 300 additional residency slots in Colorado, much less slots in plastics/radiology/neuro, etc.? I grew up in Colorado and have practiced medicine there. The vast majority of hospitals in that state (outside of Denver) could barely support an internship, much less any sort of a residency. Neurosurgery/opthalmology? Time for a reality check.

Absolutely! The combination of hospitals and clinics throughout the state that are currently not affiliated with residencies (Memorial Hospital, Colorado Springs; Penrose St. Francis System Hospitals, Colorado Springs, etc.) with those that currently have established residencies that will be added to (Denver Health, Denver; St. Anthony, Denver; etc.) will provide 300+ new residency positions. Seven of the affiliated hospitals have 500+ beds, so I'm pretty sure they could support an internship - Feel free to call Dr. Greg Smith - Associate Dean of Clinical Sciences to confirm. ALL SPECIALTIES! Maybe its just been awhile since you were in Colorado?

Time to face reality, DOAnes!

 

[SOUNDMAN]

How about funding for those 300 residency slots? Now that's a whole new ball of wax isn't it?

 

[DO Anes]

Neurosurgery, anesthesiology, CV surgery, dermatology? Since the AOA requires osteopathic board certification, where will the program directors and DME's come from? RVU's immagination? Huge difference between a flexible internship in a community hospital and a specialized, non-primary care residency. Pediatric nephrology anyone?

 

[Yourmother]

Neurosurgery, anesthesiology, CV surgery, dermatology? Since the AOA requires osteopathic board certification, where will the program directors and DME's come from? RVU's immagination? Huge difference between a flexible internship in a community hospital and a specialized, non-primary care residency. Pediatric nephrology anyone?

and the band plays on, and on, and on....

 

[bth7]

I am an academic physician and AOA Health Policy Fellow. Osteopathic medicine is in trouble and your help is needed. Our colleges are rapidly expanding without regard to preposterous levels of tuition, postgraduate education or overall quality. The Rocky Vista shcool in Denver will be the first for-profit medical school in the US since 1935, when all for-profit schools were intentionally closed. It is owned by the same investors who own the American University of the Caribbean in St. Maarten. When this becomes widely known, it will destroy our credibility in the medical world. DO's will be seen as the lowest of the low and the profession will be regarded as just another money making scheme. THIS CANNOT BE ALLOWED TO STAND. We are a concerned group of DO's, trying to get the following resolution across:

Whereas the Flexner Report of 1910 is widely regarded as having helped reform both osteopathic and allopathic medical education and has served as a continuing reference for judging the quality of contemporary medical schools, and
Whereas Abraham Flexner was highly critical in his Report of for-profit medical education, noting : “Such exploitation of medical education, is strangely inconsistent with the social aspects of medical practice. In modern life the medical profession is an organ differentiated by society for its highest purposes, not a business to be exploited.", and
Whereas all for-profit schools of osteopathic and allopathic medicine in the U.S. were either converted into not for profit institutions, or were forced to close by 1935, and
Whereas osteopathic medical education should be held to a standard at least equal to, if not exceeding, allopathic medical education, and
Whereas the accreditation standards of the Liaison Committee on Medical Education (LCME) explicitly prohibits for-profit medical schools, therefore be it resolved that,
The House of Delegates strongly disapproves the establishment of any college of osteopathic medicine operated on a for-profit basis.

Get the word out and write to everyone you know. Get involved. At any official gathering, wear the following name badge:
I DISAPPROVE!
DOCTORS NOT DOLLARS
If this generation does not act, the profession will perish.

👍👍

 

[JayneCobb]

and the band plays on, and on, and on....

Yes, please enlighten us who aren't as intelligent as you how you create new spots with no money and a new massive need of AOA trained physicians for DMEs and PDs?
Have you ever read the AOA guidelines and what it takes to start a program?

 

[CatsandCradles]

Absolutely! The combination of hospitals and clinics throughout the state that are currently not affiliated with residencies (Memorial Hospital, Colorado Springs; Penrose St. Francis System Hospitals, Colorado Springs, etc.) with those that currently have established residencies that will be added to (Denver Health, Denver; St. Anthony, Denver; etc.) will provide 300+ new residency positions. Seven of the affiliated hospitals have 500+ beds, so I'm pretty sure they could support an internship - Feel free to call Dr. Greg Smith - Associate Dean of Clinical Sciences to confirm. ALL SPECIALTIES! Maybe its just been awhile since you were in Colorado?

Time to face reality, DOAnes!

and the band plays on, and on, and on....

Gene Genie and Yourmother

Can someone please explain to us how we will get the federal government to fund all those specialist spots? And ontop of this, do you think the federal government will fund residencies associated with a for profit institution?

In 1997, Congress pretty much put a limit of post graduate education expenditure - does anyone here actually think that will change in the next 5 years?

Heck, they can't even pass a $35 billion dollar expansion for SCHIP for poor children - so what makes you think they'll expand AOA residencies that are specialties? I highly doubt they'll get funding for primary care spots either. Everything cost money - and it sure doesn't help RVUCOM out that they're a for profit institution either. Our country is in a very trying situation in Iraq as of right now. We also face a very large sub prime banking crisis - and the US dollar now trades at just $0.94 Canadian cents.

Our country is having some budget difficulties - and I would not be suprised if we saw cuts in federal funding for AOA and AGCME programs.

Thus I have difficulty believing RVUCOM cheerleaders who say they will open up all these brand new residencies. The JAOA ran a past article with the dean stating that they planned on sending 50% of their students to specialties. That statement is hard to believe. They are trying to make their OPTIs appear out of thin air.

Even the state/public osteopathic institutions have some level of difficulty problem with aquiring and maintaining residencies. Just to give you an idea of the cost, I looked up several old budget books at my school - it would cost well over $450,000 some thousand dollars to start up and open a OPTI pediatric residency program that will take 2 or 3 post graduates each year. That was the start up cost - I have no clue how much it would cost to maintain the program - and I have no clue where the money comes from whether it was from state or federal funds. I suspect it the a lot of schools are trying to open programs up directly out of their own budget.

Is a brand new for profit school going to fund this out of there pocket? I doubt that since a large portion of whatever they do get from tuition is going back to that investor from Taiwan. And keep in mind that RVU will be paying those loans off for the construction as well - for many years to come.

 

[DO Anes]

As part of the AOA health policy I did a paper on GME funding and presented it at the AOA Bureau of Federal Affairs meeting this year. Anyone interested can PM me with an address and I can forward a copy.
Basically, CMS wants to get out of funding GME, osteopathic and allopathic. Their administrator at the time I wrote the paper stated that they shouldn't be funding GME and perhaps some other dept, like education, should fund. The Commission on the Future of Medicare also recommended eliminating of GME funding. Although everyone agrees GME is a public good, Medicare is having to make tough choices about where to spend their money as the baby boomers retire. They are going to choose clinical care over resident education and the lowest hanging fruit (undersubscribed residency programs, subspecialties) is going to be cut first.

 

[Yourmother]

Gene Genie and Yourmother
Can someone please explain to us how we will get the federal government to fund all those specialist spots? And ontop of this, do you think the federal government will fund residencies associated with a for profit institution?
quote]

I'll be honest, I don't know.

No doubt you have a valid argument and I won't question your position. I am a premed, so natually I am in favor of any new school. If it is for profit, non profit or profit-less, regardless.

You're skirting the issue. It is obvious that the real matter is not about federal government funding or residency slots. It's about what motivates you and others; money and status, both which you feel that RVU will somehow dimish. Everything else is smoke and mirrors.

Do we not have a physician shortage? Who is going to take care of the 80,000,000 babyboomers entering retirement? Do residency slots ever go unfilled?

 

[Yourmother]

Gene Genie and Yourmother

Can someone please explain to us how we will get the federal government to fund all those specialist spots? And ontop of this, do you think the federal government will fund residencies associated with a for profit institution?

In 1997, Congress pretty much put a limit of post graduate education expenditure - does anyone here actually think that will change in the next 5 years?

Heck, they can't even pass a $35 billion dollar expansion for SCHIP for poor children - so what makes you think they'll expand AOA residencies that are specialties? I highly doubt they'll get funding for primary care spots either. Everything cost money - and it sure doesn't help RVUCOM out that they're a for profit institution either. Our country is in a very trying situation in Iraq as of right now. We also face a very large sub prime banking crisis - and the US dollar now trades at just $0.94 Canadian cents.

Our country is having some budget difficulties - and I would not be suprised if we saw cuts in federal funding for AOA and AGCME programs.

Thus I have difficulty believing RVUCOM cheerleaders who say they will open up all these brand new residencies. The JAOA ran a past article with the dean stating that they planned on sending 50% of their students to specialties. That statement is hard to believe. They are trying to make their OPTIs appear out of thin air.

Even the state/public osteopathic institutions have some level of difficulty problem with aquiring and maintaining residencies. Just to give you an idea of the cost, I looked up several old budget books at my school - it would cost well over $450,000 some thousand dollars to start up and open a OPTI pediatric residency program that will take 2 or 3 post graduates each year. That was the start up cost - I have no clue how much it would cost to maintain the program - and I have no clue where the money comes from whether it was from state or federal funds. I suspect it the a lot of schools are trying to open programs up directly out of their own budget.

Is a brand new for profit school going to fund this out of there pocket? I doubt that since a large portion of whatever they do get from tuition is going back to that investor from Taiwan. And keep in mind that RVU will be paying those loans off for the construction as well - for many years to come.

Look, I'm ignorant on the subject but my question is sincere.

Why are you guys railing against RVU about limited residency slots and government funding? Why not rail against FMGs that take the slots? Why not rail against outsourcing of rads? Why not rail against the allied healtcare taking over the primary care territory? Or their massive lobby arm? Why not a fight against the CRNAs?

Besides, there is nothing you can do about RVU. We can come back to this very post next year and I promise RVU will still be here.

~Mofo

 

[Yourmother]

Your focus needs to be on Hillarycare 2008, not RVU. A Democratic Congress, and Democrat President, a pissed off public! Can you imagine the bills they'll pass? National health will be a cinch.

I promise, RVU will be the last thing on your mind in a couple of years. After Hillary gets done NPs and CRNAs will have privileges. Normally I'm saracastic but I honestly feel that healthcare will change forever in the next decade.

 

[Gene Genie]

... Is a brand new for profit school going to fund this out of there pocket? I doubt that since a large portion of whatever they do get from tuition is going back to that investor from Taiwan. And keep in mind that RVU will be paying those loans off for the construction as well - for many years to come.

I've said it before, I'll say is again - it will be approximately 20 years before the school begins to turn a profit.

I don't know why you people think that the money from tuition and fees is going to be funneled directly into the pockets of the investor. This investment doesn't work that way. The only way he will make money is if after 20+ years he sells the school for more than he paid to build it.

 

[cyclohexanol]

Gene Genie --

You sure seem to know a lot of 'inside' information about RVU. You talk about all of these proposed residencies and confirmed rotation sites (which have apparently been disputed by the sites themselves), you know about RVU's finances and their business plan, etc... Where you got all this info, I have no clue, it doesn't seem like something that would be talked about at length during an interview. And every post you have made on SDN is about RVU. Now... there is nothing wrong with taking pride in being accepted to a school and being excited about it. I post mostly on COMP threads because I go there and I have a lot of info to share, no biggie, I can see where you're coming from if that is the case.

However, to me, you come off as one of two things:
1) A real pre-med who is super excited about going to medical school in your home state, but who comes off a little naive seeming to believe everything told to them by RVU without question.

OR

2) An insider who isn't a student at all, never applied, and just wants to try to nullify the negative comments about RVU on this forum (because googling for RVU comes up with this thread)

Of those two choices, I'd like to think that you are the pre-med and I would wish you luck in your future endeavors.

However, if you are the insider... I would suggest you are trying too hard, but good job changing the google PageRank for RVU since these threads used to come up as the top hits. I would also tell you to stop impersonating applicants, its getting old. 👎

 

[JayneCobb]

I've said it before, I'll say is again - it will be approximately 20 years before the school begins to turn a profit.

I don't know why you people think that the money from tuition and fees is going to be funneled directly into the pockets of the investor. This investment doesn't work that way. The only way he will make money is if after 20+ years he sells the school for more than he paid to build it.

The investor said 17 years, and there was a nice piece not to long ago where they openly said he will be making more money by building condo/apartment complexes and with other ancillary land development around the school.

That still doesn't sit well with me. If he was primarily looking to make money off of the ancillary stuff, why bother making the school for-profit in the first place?

 

[bth7]

With due respect to everyone's opinions,


I have no interest in "railing" on RVU. I don't think that osteopathic medicine will fall apart, and I'm not here to debate health care reform.

I am a proud student of an osteopathic medical school and I am deeply concerned about the decision to allow a school organized as a "for-profit" corporation.

First and foremost, this action represents a failure of leadership to share a vision with the osteopathic membership. The community of osteopathic physicians and students, do not want "for profit" medical schools. Not a one has existed in the United States for the past 100 years, and I see no compelling reason why that should change, and none has been offered by the AOA leadership. By permitting a for-profit school to open, the AOA and COCA made a decision that effects all of us within the community.

Though many choose not to acknowledge this fact, the accredidation standards for opening a new school of osteopathic medicine are less rigorous than those for an allopathic school. This was true before RVU was granted provision approval, and there were many in the community already concerned about this fact. By allowing RVU to begin admitting students, COCA loosened those standards even further.

Ultimately, medicine is a function of a trust that exists between doctors and their patients. Any individual physician can gain or lose this trust, due to their own diligence or negligence, but the foundation of this trust rest on a contract between the public and the medical establishment. That contract says that we as a profession will police ourselves to ensure a minimum level of competence, compassion and knowledge.

The osteopathic profession has worked hard to achieve independence and equality in negotiating this public trust, and now enjoys wide acceptance within the US medical establishment for it separate set of standards to educate physicians.

This is not to be taken for granted. Already, the trust of osteopathic graduates for the standards of their own community has eroded to the point that over 2/3rds choose not to continue their training within the osteopathic community after graduation. Two-thirds is an awfully big number. One can rhetorically dismiss this fact with platitudes, but the overwhelming fact remains, the overwhelming majority of D.O. graduates feel they can get better training in an ACGME accredited program, not an AOA accredited one.

At a time when osteopathic graduates lead the nation in amount of debt upon graduation, (link) why is the AOA not responding to this by asking for greater reinvestment of revenue into financial aid programs, and to build the endowment of existing schools to ensure financial stability into the future?

At time when many of these new schools struggle to find a reasonable number of quality comprehensive clinical rotation sites for their 3rd and 4th year students, why is the AOA supporting the creation of even more schools that will have the same problems?

There are serious problems within the osteopathic community that require a vision and strong leadership. There are an increasing number of us that realize that not only is that vision and leadership lacking, but that our leaders are actively pursuing a course of action that takes the profession in the wrong direction.

Osteopathic leadership should raise the bar in the standard of pre and post graduate osteopathic medical education. The quality of the indication is the best asset in ensuring a healthy future for the osteopathic profession in the future.

The DO-difference must be that Osteopathic medical education makes better doctors for patients, not better profits for investors.

bth

 

[cyclohexanol]

Epic win, bth 👍

With due respect to everyone's opinions,


I have no interest in "railing" on RVU. I don't think that osteopathic medicine will fall apart, and I'm not here to debate health care reform.

I am a proud student of an osteopathic medical school and I am deeply concerned about the decision to allow a school organized as a "for-profit" corporation.

First and foremost, this action represents a failure of leadership to share a vision with the osteopathic membership. The community of osteopathic physicians and students, do not want "for profit" medical schools. Not a one has existed in the United States for the past 100 years, and I see no compelling reason why that should change, and none has been offered by the AOA leadership. By permitting a for-profit school to open, the AOA and COCA made a decision that effects all of us within the community.

Though many choose not to acknowledge this fact, the accredidation standards for opening a new school of osteopathic medicine are less rigorous than those for an allopathic school. This was true before RVU was granted provision approval, and there were many in the community already concerned about this fact. By allowing RVU to begin admitting students, COCA loosened those standards even further.

Ultimately, medicine is a function of a trust that exists between doctors and their patients. Any individual physician can gain or lose this trust, due to their own diligence or negligence, but the foundation of this trust rest on a contract between the public and the medical establishment. That contract says that we as a profession will police ourselves to ensure a minimum level of competence, compassion and knowledge.

The osteopathic profession has worked hard to achieve independence and equality in negotiating this public trust, and now enjoys wide acceptance within the US medical establishment for it separate set of standards to educate physicians.

This is not to be taken for granted. Already, the trust of osteopathic graduates for the standards of their own community has eroded to the point that over 2/3rds choose not to continue their training within the osteopathic community after graduation. Two-thirds is an awfully big number. One can rhetorically dismiss this fact with platitudes, but the overwhelming fact remains, the overwhelming majority of D.O. graduates feel they can get better training in an ACGME accredited program, not an AOA accredited one.

At a time when osteopathic graduates lead the nation in amount of debt upon graduation, (link) why is the AOA not responding to this by asking for greater reinvestment of revenue into financial aid programs, and to build the endowment of existing schools to ensure financial stability into the future?

At time when many of these new schools struggle to find a reasonable number of quality comprehensive clinical rotation sites for their 3rd and 4th year students, why is the AOA supporting the creation of even more schools that will have the same problems?

There are serious problems within the osteopathic community that require a vision and strong leadership. There are an increasing number of us that realize that not only is that vision and leadership lacking, but that our leaders are actively pursuing a course of action that takes the profession in the wrong direction.

Osteopathic leadership should raise the bar in the standard of pre and post graduate osteopathic medical education. The quality of the indication is the best asset in ensuring a healthy future for the osteopathic profession in the future.

The DO-difference must be that Osteopathic medical education makes better doctors for patients, not better profits for investors.

bth

 

[Gene Genie]

Gene Genie --

You sure seem to know a lot of 'inside' information about RVU. You talk about all of these proposed residencies and confirmed rotation sites (which have apparently been disputed by the sites themselves), you know about RVU's finances and their business plan, etc... Where you got all this info, I have no clue, it doesn't seem like something that would be talked about at length during an interview. And every post you have made on SDN is about RVU. Now... there is nothing wrong with taking pride in being accepted to a school and being excited about it. I post mostly on COMP threads because I go there and I have a lot of info to share, no biggie, I can see where you're coming from if that is the case.

However, to me, you come off as one of two things:
1) A real pre-med who is super excited about going to medical school in your home state, but who comes off a little naive seeming to believe everything told to them by RVU without question.

OR

2) An insider who isn't a student at all, never applied, and just wants to try to nullify the negative comments about RVU on this forum (because googling for RVU comes up with this thread)

Of those two choices, I'd like to think that you are the pre-med and I would wish you luck in your future endeavors.

However, if you are the insider... I would suggest you are trying too hard, but good job changing the google PageRank for RVU since these threads used to come up as the top hits. I would also tell you to stop impersonating applicants, its getting old. 👎

WOW. Paranoid much? 😉 I am a pre-med who is excited and well-informed about the school. The information that I have I received during my interview, in my own research on-line, and my communication with the school's Deans. Anyone could do it - its not that tough - "It's called the Freedom of Information Act, Kate. The hippies finally got something right! Ha-ha! Just kidding. But not really.."
Just do a little research. Dig a little deeper. 🙂

I had NO IDEA SDN existed before my interview with RVUCOM - they were the ones who brought it up, and so my curiosity brought me here. That's why my posts are about RVUCOM. Also, I could really care less about the unimportant venting of frustrated kids - that's why I don't post anywhere else. I have a job (full time, in fact) that prevents me from spending hours scanning numerous posts about god knows what. That's why I just stick to a few. No hidden agenda. No underlying motive. Really.

Finally, I don't know why you seem to think that I haven't questioned anything about RVUCOM. I actually have. A lot. But before I fly off the handle and jump on an opinion bandwagon, I would rather get the FACTS through research, conversations, etc. Then I can make an informed decision/opinion.

 

[Gene Genie]

The investor said 17 years, and there was a nice piece not to long ago where they openly said he will be making more money by building condo/apartment complexes and with other ancillary land development around the school...

Ok, sorry, 17 years not 20. My bad.

But I'm not really understanding your point about the ancillary land development. There are a great deal of businesses that will benefit from RVUCOM being established in the area:

"Rocky Vista University and Rocky Vista University College of Osteopathic Medicine will provide direct economic impact in excess of $75 million annually by the year 2012 and more than $200 annually by 2020." (www.forbes.com)

 

[cyclohexanol]

As I said, if you are the pre-med (not the insider) I wish you luck in your future endeavors. No explanations needed

WOW. Paranoid much? 😉 I am a pre-med who is excited and well-informed about the school. The information that I have I received during my interview, in my own research on-line, and my communication with the school's Deans. Anyone could do it - its not that tough - "It's called the Freedom of Information Act, Kate. The hippies finally got something right! Ha-ha! Just kidding. But not really.."
Just do a little research. Dig a little deeper. 🙂

I had NO IDEA SDN existed before my interview with RVUCOM - they were the ones who brought it up, and so my curiosity brought me here. That's why my posts are about RVUCOM. Also, I could really care less about the unimportant venting of frustrated kids - that's why I don't post anywhere else. I have a job (full time, in fact) that prevents me from spending hours scanning numerous posts about god knows what. That's why I just stick to a few. No hidden agenda. No underlying motive. Really.

Finally, I don't know why you seem to think that I haven't questioned anything about RVUCOM. I actually have. A lot. But before I fly off the handle and jump on an opinion bandwagon, I would rather get the FACTS through research, conversations, etc. Then I can make an informed decision/opinion.

 

[Gene Genie]

As I said, if you are the pre-med (not the insider) I wish you luck in your future endeavors. No explanations needed

Thank you, and the same applies.

 

[Gene Genie]

With due respect to everyone's opinions,


I have no interest in "railing" on RVU. I don't think that osteopathic medicine will fall apart, and I'm not here to debate health care reform.

I am a proud student of an osteopathic medical school and I am deeply concerned about the decision to allow a school organized as a "for-profit" corporation.

First and foremost, this action represents a failure of leadership to share a vision with the osteopathic membership. The community of osteopathic physicians and students, do not want "for profit" medical schools. Not a one has existed in the United States for the past 100 years, and I see no compelling reason why that should change, and none has been offered by the AOA leadership. By permitting a for-profit school to open, the AOA and COCA made a decision that effects all of us within the community.

Though many choose not to acknowledge this fact, the accredidation standards for opening a new school of osteopathic medicine are less rigorous than those for an allopathic school. This was true before RVU was granted provision approval, and there were many in the community already concerned about this fact. By allowing RVU to begin admitting students, COCA loosened those standards even further.

Ultimately, medicine is a function of a trust that exists between doctors and their patients. Any individual physician can gain or lose this trust, due to their own diligence or negligence, but the foundation of this trust rest on a contract between the public and the medical establishment. That contract says that we as a profession will police ourselves to ensure a minimum level of competence, compassion and knowledge.

The osteopathic profession has worked hard to achieve independence and equality in negotiating this public trust, and now enjoys wide acceptance within the US medical establishment for it separate set of standards to educate physicians.

This is not to be taken for granted. Already, the trust of osteopathic graduates for the standards of their own community has eroded to the point that over 2/3rds choose not to continue their training within the osteopathic community after graduation. Two-thirds is an awfully big number. One can rhetorically dismiss this fact with platitudes, but the overwhelming fact remains, the overwhelming majority of D.O. graduates feel they can get better training in an ACGME accredited program, not an AOA accredited one.

At a time when osteopathic graduates lead the nation in amount of debt upon graduation, (link) why is the AOA not responding to this by asking for greater reinvestment of revenue into financial aid programs, and to build the endowment of existing schools to ensure financial stability into the future?

At time when many of these new schools struggle to find a reasonable number of quality comprehensive clinical rotation sites for their 3rd and 4th year students, why is the AOA supporting the creation of even more schools that will have the same problems?

There are serious problems within the osteopathic community that require a vision and strong leadership. There are an increasing number of us that realize that not only is that vision and leadership lacking, but that our leaders are actively pursuing a course of action that takes the profession in the wrong direction.

Osteopathic leadership should raise the bar in the standard of pre and post graduate osteopathic medical education. The quality of the indication is the best asset in ensuring a healthy future for the osteopathic profession in the future.

The DO-difference must be that Osteopathic medical education makes better doctors for patients, not better profits for investors.

bth

I think I may have just fallen in love with you. 😉 Maybe.

 

[bth7]

The information that I have I received during my interview, in my own research on-line, and my communication with the school's Deans.

Also, I could really care less about the unimportant venting of frustrated kids - that's why I don't post anywhere else.

Finally, I don't know why you seem to think that I haven't questioned anything about RVUCOM. I actually have. A lot. But before I fly off the handle and jump on an opinion bandwagon, I would rather get the FACTS through research, conversations, etc. Then I can make an informed decision/opinion.

Genie Genie,

You seem like a really motivated well-informed pre-med and I applaud your efforts to get multiple sources of information and to do your own research. You are most correct, SDN is not always a reliable source, and a great deal of what gets passed around here as fact is distorted hearsay.

I am just one person, but I feel really compelled to share with you what I know. The admissions and dean's of any school, though they may be incredibly wonderful people, definitely have an agenda - that of filling their school with the best possible candidates they can find.

I wish this was not the case, but I can tell you from first hand experience, the dean's of a new school will have no choice but to make promises that they cannot keep. It is very difficult to explain the level of resources, both financial and human, that are required to create 2 years of clinical education for a medical school. It requires dozen of people working to secure spots with many hospitals and preceptors. All of them must be appropriately trained and approved to teach. There are financial issues and insurance issues in great abundance to be worked out before a single student can even greet a patient in a real-world clinical setting.

I'm sure the officials at RVU will give you a glowing perception of the status of their clinical education program. But I can assure you, there is a wide divide between plans on paper for clinical education, and the actuality of providing quality 3rd & 4th year rotations.

This has been a major problem for every new school that's opened in the past five years (Touro=NV, Bradenton, PCOM-Atl, even TUCOM-CA and AZCOM). The rotations are not there, not in the numbers the student's need, not with the level of oversight the students need, not with the established didactics programs in place. These schools send their students across many states and hundreds of miles, trying to piece together a meaningful clinical experience for their students. There is no way the staff of these new, small schools can even visit every site, let alone ensure a rigorous curriculum for the students.

I'm not saying the students of these schools are not getting an excellent education. I'm saying that for many students, they are put in the difficult position of carving out their own education amidst a very chaotic, poorly regulated system.

Any dean of clinical education that tells you otherwise, that makes you a promise that all the rotations you'll need will firmly be in place, this person is not disclosing the situation to you. They are not disclosing the reality of the massive task a new school is faced with in creating a 3rd and 4th year experience, and the real challenges the students of these schools face.

Consider this, if only for the sake of your own happiness. Please bear in mind, I am speaking from the position of being a very motivated 3rd year medical student, who very much believes in the osteopathic profession.

bth

 

[Gene Genie]

Genie Genie,

You seem like a really motivated well-informed pre-med and I applaud your efforts to get multiple sources of information and to do your own research. You are most correct, SDN is not always a reliable source, and a great deal of what gets passed around here as fact is distorted hearsay.

I am just one person, but I feel really compelled to share with you what I know. The admissions and dean's of any school, though they may be incredibly wonderful people, definitely have an agenda - that of filling their school with the best possible candidates they can find.

I wish this was not the case, but I can tell you from first hand experience, the dean's of a new school will have no choice but to make promises that they cannot keep. It is very difficult to explain the level of resources, both financial and human, that are required to create 2 years of clinical education for a medical school. It requires dozen of people working to secure spots with many hospitals and preceptors. All of them must be appropriately trained and approved to teach. There are financial issues and insurance issues in great abundance to be worked out before a single student can even greet a patient in a real-world clinical setting.

I'm sure the officials at RVU will give you a glowing perception of the status of their clinical education program. But I can assure you, there is a wide divide between plans on paper for clinical education, and the actuality of providing quality 3rd & 4th year rotations.

This has been a major problem for every new school that's opened in the past five years (Touro=NV, Bradenton, PCOM-Atl, even TUCOM-CA and AZCOM). The rotations are not there, not in the numbers the student's need, not with the level of oversight the students need, not with the established didactics programs in place. These schools send their students across many states and hundreds of miles, trying to piece together a meaningful clinical experience for their students. There is no way the staff of these new, small schools can even visit every site, let alone ensure a rigorous curriculum for the students.

I'm not saying the students of these schools are not getting an excellent education. I'm saying that for many students, they are put in the difficult position of carving out their own education amidst a very chaotic, poorly regulated system.

Any dean of clinical education that tells you otherwise, that makes you a promise that all the rotations you'll need will firmly be in place, this person is not disclosing the situation to you. They are not disclosing the reality of the massive task a new school is faced with in creating a 3rd and 4th year experience, and the real challenges the students of these schools face.

Consider this, if only for the sake of your own happiness. Please bear in mind, I am speaking from the position of being a very motivated 3rd year medical student, who very much believes in the osteopathic profession.

bth

I appreciate everything that you have to say.

I can understand that the "admissions and dean's of any school, though they may be incredibly wonderful people, definitely have an agenda." This agenda is no different for RVUCOM or any other medical school. Every institution is interested in making their statistics the best they can and producing numbers that will bring in future applicants and students.

But you also say that the inability of the school to live up to its rotation promises "has been a major problem for every new school that's opened in the past five years (Touro=NV, Bradenton, PCOM-Atl, even TUCOM-CA and AZCOM)." It seems to me that there is more to this issue than the establishment of a new for-profit school.

 

[bth7]

This agenda is no different for RVUCOM or any other medical school. Every institution is interested in making their statistics the best they can and producing numbers that will bring in future applicants and students.

But you also say that the inability of the school to live up to its rotation promises "has been a major problem for every new school that's opened in the past five years (Touro=NV, Bradenton, PCOM-Atl, even TUCOM-CA and AZCOM)." It seems to me that there is more to this issue than the establishment of a new for-profit school.

Yet it is different. Other schools have results to back up their statistics. RVU has none. They will downplay this, but they cannot change it. But this is insignificant compared to RVU's for-profit status and reaction that status has already provoked.

This school does not enjoy the support of the osteopathic community, many of whom are opposed to its organization as a for-profit institution. Many within the community are working to have this school stopped before it gets started - to allow COCA to reconsider its process. This lack of broad support places the school on extremely shaky footing within its own osteopathic family, and its bigger family as part of medicine.

I am a fighter, I love a good challenge and I love proving the experts wrong. But this is not a challenge worth taking on, not as a medical student. Anyone will tell you, medical school is challenging enough without this additional nonsense; no one should have to attend a school whose accredidation status and support from its community is anything but rock-solid. Officials will dismiss these concerns as the voice of some rebellious minority. I assure you, they are not.

This is a silly situation that the AOA brought upon itself. They failed to properly gauge the beliefs of the osteopathic community. No other school has created this level of protest and questioning before the doors even opened. There is no reason that incoming, bright, hopeful medical students should have to suffer with the challenged status of their school because of an AOA administrative oversight.

bth

 

[Jpc984]

Yet it is different. Other schools have results to back up their statistics. RVU has none. They will downplay this, but they cannot change it. But this is insignificant compared to RVU's for-profit status and reaction that status has already provoked.

This school does not enjoy the support of the osteopathic community, many of whom are opposed to its organization as a for-profit institution. Many within the community are working to have this school stopped before it gets started - to allow COCA to reconsider its process. This lack of broad support places the school on extremely shaky footing within its own osteopathic family, and its bigger family as part of medicine.

I am a fighter, I love a good challenge and I love proving the experts wrong. But this is not a challenge worth taking on, not as a medical student. Anyone will tell you, medical school is challenging enough without this additional nonsense; no one should have to attend a school whose accredidation status and support from its community is anything but rock-solid. Officials will dismiss these concerns as the voice of some rebellious minority. I assure you, they are not.

This is a silly situation that the AOA brought upon itself. They failed to properly gauge the beliefs of the osteopathic community. No other school has created this level of protest and questioning before the doors even opened. There is no reason that incoming, bright, hopeful medical students should have to suffer with the challenged status of their school because of an AOA administrative oversight.

bth

True... but do you think the COCA will reverse their accreditation to RVU?

 

[Yourmother]

This is all just posturing and conversation, nothing more and nothing less. I doubt these threads will change anything.

Sure, your arguments are strong and sentiments brimming with conviction. But it does not matter in the end. RVU will be the shining city on the hill. Your only recognizable success will be in a graduation speech, when they speak of the naysayers.

Just remember, they will be talking about you. So go ahead, respond with your typical thirty paragraph response. Edit it. Work on your agrument, make sure it reads well.

 

[bth7]

This is all just posturing and conversation, nothing more and nothing less. I doubt these threads will change anything.

Sure, your arguments are strong and sentiments brimming with conviction. But it does not matter in the end. RVU will be the shining city on the hill. Your only recognizable success will be in a graduation speech, when they speak of the naysayers.

Just remember, they will be talking about you. So go ahead, respond with your typical thirty paragraph response. Edit it. Work on your agrument, make sure it reads well.

And what will they say? That we made a strong argument? That we hold strong convictions? That we care enough to edit our own writing, and can carry a logical argument over 30 paragraphs?

To the hypothetical graduation speech-writer, best of luck with your medical career, and thanks for the compliments.

I'm not a naysayer; I'm an osteopathic medical student who cares about his profession.

bth

 

[JayneCobb]

Ok, sorry, 17 years not 20. My bad.

But I'm not really understanding your point about the ancillary land development. There are a great deal of businesses that will benefit from RVUCOM being established in the area:

Though Martin estimated annual revenue at $40 million once the school reaches full capacity, he pointed out that Tien probably won't make a lot of money from the school for the first 17 years.
"But [Tien] didn't get to be a good businessman by being dumb -- he's looking at developing between three and four hundred apartments and housing around it," Martin said. "There's not very good margins in operating a medical school, but if you put a thousand people on a campus, all of a sudden you have a small town. That's where the real money is."
​

So they're looking at 40 million per year after four years, but he's going to be milking the student loans by renting you time-shares and selling you milk. 🙄. yay for capitalism.

 

[Gene Genie]

bth7,

I understand that there is some controversy surrounding RVUCOM, but there are other new schools that do not have statistics yet either and are not being judged so harshly as RVUCOM. I find it strange that tax-status could incite such a heated debate, don't you?

The COCA accreditation is provisional, as it is for all new institutions, and the school is already in the process of acquiring regional accreditation. The possibility that RVUCOM will not receive accreditation is incredibly small, as long as the school upholds the same standards to which other osteopathic schools are held. Those parties involved DO NOT want to see the school fail.

I honestly question what percentage of the osteopathic community is really so opposed to the school. Funny how it seems that SDN is the primary site of discussion about the issue. Furthermore, it is completely possible, and I'll even say probable, that the argument looks bigger than it is due to multiple user names leading to the same person. Its just not a reputable forum to be the voice of the osteopathic community.

In the context of some members of the osteopathic profession RVUCOM may seem like a joke, but still others are highly anticipating RVUCOM success.

Only time will tell...

 

[Gene Genie]

...So they're looking at 40 million per year after four years, but he's going to be milking the student loans by renting you time-shares and selling you milk. 🙄. yay for capitalism.

Well, that is if they construct the "village" within four years 😉 Didn't someone once say "it takes a village to raise" a doctor, or wait, maybe it was child - whatever...

However, as a Colorado resident I can assure you that there is plenty of affordable housing outside the potential RVUCOM compound!

 

[JayneCobb]

Well, that is if they construct the "village" within four years 😉 Didn't someone once say "it takes a village to raise" a doctor, or wait, maybe it was child - whatever...

the 40 million has nothing to do with the off campus land development, that's the yearly income from the school

 

[Gene Genie]

the 40 million has nothing to do with the off campus land development, that's the yearly income from the school

Right, the revenue which is what the school will use for development and cost of operations. The actual profit from the school will not be that much.

Revenue : The amount of money that a company actually receives during a specific period, including discounts and deductions for returned merchandise. It is the "top line" or "gross income" figure from which costs are subtracted to determine net income.

Profit : Total income or cash flow minus expenditures and taxes.


So any profit would have to come from constructing the ancillary sites (i.e., the village)

 

[JayneCobb]

So any profit would have to come from constructing the ancillary sites (i.e., the village)

Really? damn those accounting classes failed me. (this is sarcasm fyi) But the real question isn't how much they say they're making, but how much they slower themselves with excessive crap under the perks column.. private jets, fancy dinners and other junk has been frequently rumored to occur in the other not-for-profit schools we already have in our osteopathic rank.

I don't buy this crap, if the profit was only coming from the ancillary investments, why bother making the school for-profit if all the real profit was elsewhere?

J. Cobb D.O.

 

[Gene Genie]

Really? damn those accounting classes failed me. (this is sarcasm fyi) But the real question isn't how much they say they're making, but how much they slower themselves with excessive crap under the perks column.. private jets, fancy dinners and other junk has been frequently rumored to occur in the other not-for-profit schools we already have in our osteopathic rank.

I don't buy this crap, if the profit was only coming from the ancillary investments, why bother making the school for-profit if all the real profit was elsewhere?

J. Cobb D.O.

Wait, I got the sarcasm - I'm not trying to insult you, and I'm sorry if you felt as such.

But I've got to say, the argument against RVUCOM squandering money seems hypocritical if others "shower themselves with excessive crap under the perks column.. private jets, fancy dinners and other junk has been frequently rumored to occur in the other not-for-profit schools we already have in our osteopathic rank."

You mean, the faultless not-for-profit medical education model has flaws? (also a little sarcasm 😉)

They aren't claiming that the school won't be profitable at some point. They're just saying it will take 17 years to be so.

 

[MacGyver]

Keep dreaming about those 300 residency slots guys. You obviously dont know who the decision makers are regarding new residency slots (hint: none of them have any affiliation with RVU)

I'm going to be laughing my ass off in 5 years when it turns oout that RVU and its cooperating hospitals have only added a single residency program in FP that has 100% FMGs in it.

 

[bravotwozero]

I'm not sure if this is such a doomsday scenario. If RVU digs too deep into the applicant pool, their students bomb the boards and don't match, or it fails to provide significant rotation sites/residency programs, it'll simply crash and burn, and that'll be the end of it.

If however, this doesn't happen, and grads end up matching somewhere, and RVU puts together decent clinical curriculum/residency spots, then RVU's earned its place, and fears of the for-profit model may be unwarranted.

The only major issue here is whether or not COCA (or whoever the accrediting body is) actually waits until RVU graduates its first class, before approving another for profit medical school, to see how they end up doing, which would be the smart thing to do. If they don't, things could get messy.

 

[Shinken]

I'm going to be laughing my ass off in 5 years when it turns oout that RVU and its cooperating hospitals have only added a single residency program in FP that has 100% FMGs in it.

You won't be laughing much. If RVU adds any residency, it has to be AOA-approved which means that only DOs can apply to them. No MDs can complete AOA residencies, and that includes FMGs.

 

[Gene Genie]

First off, the average stats of accepted RVUCOM applicants is GPA: 3.6, MCAT 26 - so they aren't digging too far down in the applicant pool - that is the same or higher than other D.O. schools.

MacGyver - old argument. I wouldn't count on losing that ass in 5 years!

Good thing, too. Asses are essential - especially to SDN! 😉

 

[Gene Genie]

You won't be laughing much. If RVU adds any residency, it has to be AOA-approved which means that only DOs can apply to them. No MDs can complete AOA residencies, and that includes FMGs.

As far as I've been told the residencies are dual-accredited.

 

[EastWestN2grt]

First off, the average stats of accepted RVUCOM applicants is GPA: 3.6, MCAT 26 - so they aren't digging too far down in the applicant pool - that is the same or higher than other D.O. schools.

Where did you get these stats??

According to the released stats for the inaugural classes of Touro-NY, Debusk COM, and ATSU SOMA the averages for the incoming classes were approximately 3.4 GPA and 24-25 MCAT.

I highly, highly doubt RVU has the "accepted student stats" you are claiming. Either you made it up, or the school is feeding you exaggerated information.

Your above claimed stats would get a prospective student into most of the COMs. With politics/profit issues aside, a student with these stats would probably have multiple acceptances. In comparing schools, the issues of lack of federal financial aid, new school vs an established school, and then of course the negativity RVU has generated in the profession would I beleive make most students with multiple acceptances choose another COM. The exception being students who for whatever reasons wanted or needed to stay in CO.

Thus I believe the first class, or classes will be composed of mostly students with only one med school accpetance (RVU) or have multiple acceptances and want to be in CO.

I really cant get over the irony, or maybe hypocrisy of a for-profit school claming to want to create physicians for the "underserved of CO". I lived in Colorado through Middle school, High school and undergrad college, and I realize the serious issue of the medically underserved in Colorado. I feel so strongly about working with the medically underserved that I chose my med school most especially because it truly acts on its mission by sending its students to Community health centers and getting us to learn and work in the trenches of the medically underserved. But for RVU to try and use the marketing ploy of training physicians whose practices will have an "emphasis on those underrepresented in Colorado and the Mountain West region" just seriously disturbs me.

BTW, Gene Genie whats the deal? All of your posts are only about RVUCOM. I thought it convenient that your first post was when you got an 'acceptance' from RVU, and since then you have been one of its main defenders. Are you really an 'accepted student' or are you RVU admin. I havent seen you post about other interviews or other acceptances like most of us who have gone through this med school process. (?)

 

[Jpc984]

I wouldn't be surprised if there if the school has mostly Colorado students. I think they have an in state preference. Also, I am sure there are a lot of premeds that don't know about the controversy behind RVU.

 

[mig2k]

The recent rapid explosion of new DO schools really has me disgusted. The other residents and attendings at my hospital feel the same way. RVU is just another kick in the nuts for our profession. It seems to me that the AOA really is NOT looking out for the interest of our profession, but for their damn pocket books instead.

If AOA membership wasn't a requirement for residency, you bet I would no longer support them.

Disgusting, simply disgusting.