Help with decision making? Possible to be an MD and a good mother?!?!?

[Medhopeful22]

Hi Everyone,
I am knew to this forum and was wondering if you could give some input? I have checked out some of the other posts about this issue but thought I would still post my thoughts.
I am currently 22 and happily married. I am an RN and work in a hospital setting. I enjoy nursing, but really want to be a doctor (have my whole life!). Nursing was a great first, clinical degree and now I am ready to do something more.
I want the autonomy that medicine provides. Being an NP just isn't the same. Would it be suffiencent? I am sure. Just not so sure if it would be as fufilling Here is where I am at, and my options. I am planning on going to medical school in Australia or New Zealand (NZ) (I am citiizen of NZ, and get a much reduced cost of tution). The program in Australia is 4 years, in NZ it is 6. All of my family and friends live in NZ so obviously that would be the better choice for having a support system.
Here is what I am worried about - I will be 24 starting the program, so (in NZ) I will be 30 finishing. Then 34 by the time I am done with residency. I really want to have children, but don't really want to do that during school (I think that would emotionally traumatize my children!!!). Is 34 too old to start having children?!?!?!
I would just work part time after that so I could enjoy spending time with my children. Some of my friends are like, ' whats the point of doing all that training to work PT?". The point is that once my children are older I already have my education done and then can just enjoy working.

Here are my thoughts though....if I knew I would be just as happy being a Nurse Practitioner as I would a doctor, then I would totally do it. It takes less time (we could have children sooner), its more flexible and requires very little on call time. I could do it in midwifery, and be able to deliver babies, which is my dream.
but how do I know I will feel that way? Becoming a doctor gives you this amazing breadth of knowledge that NP school could never provide. and its what i have always wanted

Is it possible to have children during med school/residency and have them be normally functioning later in life?

How do you know you are making the right decision? do you take the safer route (which for me would be NP because of the reasons above), or do you take the riskier route and just trust it will work out?

I just don't want to regret being a doctor, but I don't want look back 15 years from now and think, "gee, I could have been an NP and been just as fulfilled".

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[LingoLaine]

How do you know you are making the right decision? do you take the safer route (which for me would be NP because of the reasons above), or do you take the riskier route and just trust it will work out?

You take the riskier route and trust it will work out, or you'll be back here in the non-trad forum in about 15 years wishing you had. Life is all about choices but it's much more common to regret the things you DIDN'T do than the things you did.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

You take the riskier route and trust it will work out, or you'll be back here in the non-trad forum in about 15 years wishing you had. Life is all about choices but it's much more common to regret the things you DIDN'T do than the things you did.

Effectively succinct.

But to the notion of "good motherliness." My opinion is no. But it won't be your fault at all. Children are not intended by the nature of our species, to be raised in overly stressed nuclear families. (Dr. Gabor Mate's work) They are, however. All the time. Most of the time.

The medical career puts an undeniable absence on any scenario, but child-rearing by it's constancy is an example of extreme disparity. My mother was a full-time working/ full time student. She's now an NP. Parental absence provided for me a certain space of independence and mischief. Which I had long ago learned to prefer. And when it came time to do the same--work/school full time--I had a model of inspiration for my efforts.

But, I think there is a huge chance of environment and personality, that you bargain with. Some children require much more attention than others. And some will wind up seriously f'd up in neglectful scenarios. Furthermore some environments are so corruptive on a kid's chances in life that without constant guarded rearing they will follow the call of the streets. Many drug abusing sons and daughters of the neglectful wealthy come to mind. Many bright misguided and oppressed youth rotting in our prison system come to mind.

I'd take a look at your support system for watching out for your kids. SO, parents etc. And by no means is 34 too late. But consider that you might be getting a distorted view of which part of your training would be best for an infant. Maybe that's tougher for women. I've seen enough mom/baby love to know that's some intense chemical **** going on.


good luck.

 

[ruraldocmom]

Bplaysitcool... I hope you know how totally offensive that was. Mom in med school = prison and drugged kids? WTF?

OP, read this website, it rocks. http://www.mothersinmedicine.com/. And look through the archives for the awesome Mom doctors out there that have been there and done that. Surf SDN for the good bits of wisdom and ignore the ridiculous advice anonymity breeds. I've got several awesome bits from SDN Mom-students-residents-doctors that I keep at my desk. Totally inspiring.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Bplaysitcool... I hope you know how totally offensive that was. Mom in med school = prison and drugged kids? WTF?

OP, read this website, it rocks. http://www.mothersinmedicine.com/. And look through the archives for the awesome Mom doctors out there that have been there and done that. Surf SDN for the good bits of wisdom and ignore the ridiculous advice anonymity breeds. I've got several awesome bits from SDN Mom-students-residents-doctors that I keep at my desk. Totally inspiring.

I'm having touble understanding your offense. What I meant was that mothers are put in the unfair position of being pressured to be supermoms in unreasonable situations. One such unreasonable situation is a mom and medicine doing it on her own. Without the support of the tribe.

So if my sociological point of view offends. I guess there's nothing I can do about it. Keep in mind. I didn't stop you in your white coat at the park with your stroller to tell you my opinion. I responded to a thread.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Additionally. As we are clearly in sensitive shark infested waters.

If you're a single working mother. Not getting the support you deserve. And medicine is what you are doing to keep you're family on the right side of the tracks.

Then you have my hearty cheers! And good wishes. You will make a fine example of grit and determination to your offspring.

And yet for the child. All I'm saying is how much more ideal to have dad, grandma, or grandpa, or Uncle B, or anyone who gives a crap, around while mom attempts the Herculean task of becoming a physician.

I turn on myself even. B? Would you make a better father working 80 hours a week or 40. Hmmm. I'm gonna say 40. But if I'm not happy and sane and positive, maybe it wouldn't matter. And maybe the singularity of being a good father is a weird way of looking at it. Maybe I should to some extent just be the best B I can be. And love my family while I'm at it.

Still If I were placing bets on myself. I'd bet on the 40/week B. Cause that's just common sense.

That's the flavor of my thoughts.

If you're still offended. You're a professional at it.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

You know you're offense is offensive come to think of it.

So women are joining the work force and ascending the ranks. Busting glass ceilings at unprecedented rates. Good. Good for vagina kind. Good for all of us in the knowledge economy where female socialization patterns are much more useful.

But you know. You're gonna suck as a parent more. Just like men have for the last century as a false and unhuman nuclear family life entered the mainstream. We use to at least live on family farms with extended relations of all sorts. And the more you're taking the weight and stressing out more. You're also gonna die earlier. Have heart disease more. Start eating on corporate accounts, woofing down steaks more. Start smoking cigars more and taking strippers back to the hotel for some pathetic attempt to fill the void more. Because you just spent the day convincing people about the meaningfulness of the unmeaningful more.

Welcome.

But. The supermom mythology of the bygone eras will not survive. The dwindling numbers of wealthy suburban pro moms can no longer sustain it. And the media will raise your kids. With their peers playing the largest role in what they think is important.

All the more so. When you're at the hospital.

These are facts. Not the slanderous offense of the internet mongers seeking to undermine your sense of self.

thanks. I think spending the last couple of years before medical school in the pretense of isn't-johnny-cute just to avoid offending the overly sensitive when Johnny is a little f'n prick of a sorry human...created the need for this rant.

 

[DrMidlife]

Timely article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

I hate this article, I hate that the subject never gets discussed rationally nor reaches anything like a resolution, I hate that there's no peace of mind to be had if one has ovaries as well as physician ambition, and I hate that there's nothing to say when my female classmates are agonizing over when/how to start a family. I also hate that there's no traction in attempting to make it a genderless issue - there's no point in trying to say that men should be just as miserable about balance. They're not and they never will be.

In particular, the author of the op-ed is critical of a female med student who wants to know if anesthesiology can be done part time or in a 40 hour week. Of course the student wants to know if there are specialties that allow for a normal family life. Why wouldn't she be looking for such a thing? A practicing physician-parent is the only source of info for how to be both physician and parent. So pony up and help the young woman figure this mess out. At least let her know she's not alone.

It's an intractable problem. The least likely person to thoughtfully consider family vs. medical training is a 21 year old gunner of either sex - so you're in med school before you can possibly know what you want. The most likely thing that the average med student is going to do is procreate. This is completely inconsistent with an efficient and standardized medical training system. It's completely inconsistent with easy-to-manage scheduling and best practice patient care. Allowing med students, residents and physicians to have families without grief cannot possibly lower the cost of US healthcare.

The only solution that looks any good to me is to have every possible physician-parent talk about it in such a way that the critical info gets to premeds and med students. Just like the OP, help them figure out whether it's a career choice that will/won't make them miserable.

 

[NightGod]

Is 34 too old to start having children?!?!?!

Is it possible to have children during med school/residency and have them be normally functioning later in life?

How do you know you are making the right decision? do you take the safer route (which for me would be NP because of the reasons above), or do you take the riskier route and just trust it will work out?

I just don't want to regret being a doctor, but I don't want look back 15 years from now and think, "gee, I could have been an NP and been just as fulfilled".

34 is definitely not too old to start having children. Friends of mine had their first child last summer at ages 36/37. My 37 yr old ex-wife has a child turning three at the end of this month (in addition to the 14 and 16 yr old from our marriage) and another friend has one turning five a couple of weeks later (in addition to their 12 year old).

Can you have children during med school and not screw up their lives? While I don't know from personal experience, I suspect the answer is "yes, if you work at it". Of course, that applies for any parent not screwing up their kids lives, doesn't it?

I can say this: parenting is both the hardest and easiest thing you'll ever do. It takes a lot of work, but the work that it takes comes naturally (at least for the most part). We're pretty well hardwired to raise good children and for their part, kids are pretty resilient. I think the single most important thing is to be able to be completely in the moment with your kids when you have the time to spend with them. Of course, that holds true for any serious relationship, really. If your child is raised knowing that mommy is busy a lot of the time but that the time they do spend with her is high quality, then I don't believe they will grow up with any major issues.

If you go to school in NZ and have a strong family/friends support crew to help you out, then all the better. My children never spent time in a day care (though they did attend a couple hours a day pre-school starting at age 3 to give them social interaction) because I had my parents close by to watch them after their mother started working and I've seen a huge difference in how they behave compared to many other kids.

 

[QofQuimica]

Bplaysitcool... I hope you know how totally offensive that was. Mom in med school = prison and drugged kids? WTF?

Rural, there's no denying that B has a, well, unique way of expressing himself sometimes. Certain posts of his might even be fairly called worthy of the MCAT VR section in terms of the inscrutability of their message. He's also unapologetically irreverent and anti-authority. But two things he is not are sexist or misogynistic.

There's no doubt that premeds and medical trainees who are mothers face prejudices, stereotypes, and bias along the way. So do those of us who aren't mothers; if I had a nickel for every time I've been given The Look or called "selfish" for choosing not to have kids, I could probably fund a few of you through med school. We all struggle so hard against the inherent dehumanization we face as we move down this path that it's easy to see hostility and enmity all around. But the more offense you look for out there, the more you will succeed in finding. I would humbly propose that when a familiar person (online or off) says something that seems out of sorts, it's worth taking the time to ask them what the heck they meant by that, instead of immediately just assuming the worst.

 

[gman33]

Plenty of my med school classmates had kids during school. I honestly don't know how they did it, but they did and I'm sure the kids will turn out just fine. You are plenty young enough to put it off until after training if you so desired.

NP v. MD. The training is different, but the actual practice part can be pretty similar depending on your field. Primary care. Most of what you see you will be able to handle fine as a NP. (not bashing my PCP collegues).
If you want something more specialized, MD is probably needed.
Being a mid-wive is cool as long as you don't want to do c-sec and other gyn surg. (i don't think they do that, excuse my ignorance).

Are you in the US? Going overseas because it's cheap is great.
It will just make it harder to get back to the US for residency, much, much harder.

Plenty do it each year, but just make sure you are making a well informed decision.

 

[NuttyEngDude]

Timely article: http://www.nytimes.com/2011/06/12/opinion/12sibert.html

I hate this article, I hate that the subject never gets discussed rationally nor reaches anything like a resolution, I hate that there's no peace of mind to be had if one has ovaries as well as physician ambition, and I hate that there's nothing to say when my female classmates are agonizing over when/how to start a family. I also hate that there's no traction in attempting to make it a genderless issue - there's no point in trying to say that men should be just as miserable about balance. They're not and they never will be.

In particular, the author of the op-ed is critical of a female med student who wants to know if anesthesiology can be done part time or in a 40 hour week. Of course the student wants to know if there are specialties that allow for a normal family life. Why wouldn't she be looking for such a thing? A practicing physician-parent is the only source of info for how to be both physician and parent. So pony up and help the young woman figure this mess out. At least let her know she's not alone.

It's an intractable problem. The least likely person to thoughtfully consider family vs. medical training is a 21 year old gunner of either sex - so you're in med school before you can possibly know what you want. The most likely thing that the average med student is going to do is procreate. This is completely inconsistent with an efficient and standardized medical training system. It's completely inconsistent with easy-to-manage scheduling and best practice patient care. Allowing med students, residents and physicians to have families without grief cannot possibly lower the cost of US healthcare.

The only solution that looks any good to me is to have every possible physician-parent talk about it in such a way that the critical info gets to premeds and med students. Just like the OP, help them figure out whether it's a career choice that will/won't make them miserable.

Hey DrMidlife,

It certainly does appear of an old guard vs new guard mentality. ie. "I had it this tough and you should too." I'm also guessing she's displaying the culture that has been ingrained in her since her induction as a resident. It will be interesting to see if and how the culture of medicine changes in the future, especially as more and more women enter the field.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Hey DrMidlife,

It certainly does appear of an old guard vs new guard mentality. ie. "I had it this tough and you should too." I'm also guessing she's displaying the culture that has been ingrained in her since her induction as a resident. It will be interesting to see if and how the culture of medicine changes in the future, especially as more and more women enter the field.

Either that or the author is jealous and trying to pass off her response as something else.

I like how in that article the quality of the physician was measured by hours worked and number of patients seen Somehow I don't see either of those as being accurate quality indicators for patient care. Some people are more productive in a shorter amount of time. Maybe the female physicians see fewer patients because they take more time and listen better which could result in better patient management and more accurate diagnosis. It's quality of care, not quantity, that determines whether or not the tax paying public is getting a good return on it's investment.

 

[lizzo76]

Well here's my advice as a 34-year-old... no, it's not too old to start having children. You're actually the extreme exception in already being married at 22 (especially among educated people) and so being married for 12 more years and not having kids in that time probably seems like a LONG time to you. But I found that among the people I went to college with, 32-ish was the time when a lot of people finally got married (I got married a few months before turning 33), with children coming a little afterward. This is a totally "normal" age to start having kids, although yes, fertility does begin to drop after 27 (though most dramatically after 35). I wouldn't worry too much about waiting to have kids. (I have no kids.) The issue of going through med school and residency only to work part-time rather than building a firm base for your career is a whole other issue, which I won't advise about. FWIW - my sister-in-law had her first kid at 36, with 3 kids in 4 years, the last one being born when she was 40. I think she's a super-fertile, though.

In my opinion (purely my personal opinion) having kids WHILE in med school or any other demanding grad program is unnecessarily making things much, much, MUCH more difficult for yourself (even if you have a big support system), and not creating an ideal environment for the child. I know people my age who have a more pressing problem... have kids NOW, before school, or wait until they're over 40 when chances are they will have difficulty conceiving? You're actually comparatively in great shape, being only 22. You've got the time to get in your schooling and training and still be relatively young when you come out of it.

 

[wavewheel]

Good question, and some good answers so far. One thing to be aware of is that by posting on a forum for pre-med students, you're likely to get answers that are a bit more pro-MD than pro-NP. I think the reality is that both can be good career paths, and if you're interested in primary care, the NP/nurse midwife route is something that's worthy of serious consideration. I'm working towards going to medical school because I'm interested in specializing and/or doing research, but my girlfriend is heading towards becoming a mid-level practitioner (either NP or PA) because she's interested in primary care and thinks that the relatively small increase in pay and scope of practice between an NP/PA and a family practice MD aren't worth the extra years (and dollars) invested in education. My only point is that you ought to talk to both physicians and NPs in making this decision, preferably ones that you know and trust.

Also, I don't know what medical education is like in New Zealand, but if it's simliar to the American system, your final year of medical school might be a reasonable time to have a baby. And if you're going into a field in which women are well-represented (ob/gyn, family practice, peds) your residency directors will probably be sympathetic to you being a mom while in training.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Either that or the author is jealous and trying to pass off her response as something else.

I like how in that article the quality of the physician was measured by hours worked and number of patients seen Somehow I don't see either of those as being accurate quality indicators for patient care. Some people are more productive in a shorter amount of time. Maybe the female physicians see fewer patients because they take more time and listen better which could result in better patient management and more accurate diagnosis. It's quality of care, not quantity, that determines whether or not the tax paying public is getting a good return on it's investment.

Indeed. And in fact I've seen a study cited that had female physician outcomes as a notch better than males. Perhaps because of this.

To double back on a tangent. I think those of us in the ambitious game fail to consider two aspects of both demands.

That parents after some time look like ****. And that residents after some time do as well. Probably some freshman medical students when the stress hits the fan start eating like Takeru Kobayashi. Now in combination. That's a recipe for physical disaster. Fat, uncomfortable, achy, underslept hot messes of physical atrophy.

I'm just sayin. Nobody admits the obvious sometimes. As someone who struggles with MSK pain. These things would tank me. Hence my reservation to do what's being proposed here. But if you think you won't suffer physically from doing the impossbile prove me wrong. With pictures. And I'll be impressed and congratulatory.

Further, if you think a 30 something body handles the wtf'ness of child bearing as good as the biologically designed age of 15-22 you're kidding yourself. Or chasing after toddlers in your 40's. Have fun with that. My brother's kids wear me out in 15 min.

Back to the subject of the impossible. Another thing I don't like about the mythology that surrounds the realness of these question, as Drmidlife elegantly expressed, is that if you dig deeper into all of these supposed super hero stories, you find without exception. That there is either the money to pay for nannies. Or their is a live in grandma, etc. And so you ask the 2 year old to point to their parent and they say "nana," or whoever spends the most time with them. Fine, cool. If you have that going for your team. But how insidious to play superhero when not everybody does.

 

[Emerald84]

Medhopeful, I think that because you are concerned about this, you will have more awareness than you give yourself credit.

I have two excellent classmates who came from nursing careers, one with a 2 year old. I was 26 and started medical school. Let me know if you want me to put you in touch with one of them if you want some perspective on coming from a nursing career and having children. I can tell you one thing, neither regrets their decisions. Nor do I. You're not going to be happy unless you make this happen.

 

[BPlaysItCool]

Medhopeful, I think that because you are concerned about this, you will have more awareness than you give yourself credit.

I have two excellent classmates who came from nursing careers, one with a 2 year old. I was 26 and started medical school. Let me know if you want me to put you in touch with one of them if you want some perspective on coming from a nursing career and having children. I can tell you one thing, neither regrets their decisions. Nor do I. You're not going to be happy unless you make this happen.

That's a heavy statement. Given the ambiguity of the OP. I think looking at the questions gravely. And making careful decisions. Would be better than tunnel vision. On what in the end. Is just a very good job.

 

[NightGod]

Further, if you think a 30 something body handles the wtf'ness of child bearing as good as the biologically designed age of 15-22 you're kidding yourself. Or chasing after toddlers in your 40's. Have fun with that. My brother's kids wear me out in 15 min.

As I told people when I had my first kid at 21 "I'm young enough to keep up with her now and I'll be young enough to enjoy life when she's moved out." Of course, I didn't realize then that I meant I would be going back to school to become a doctor

That said, I'll throw a wrench into my own statement and say this: keeping up with my ex-wife's 2-almost-3 year old (my ex and I get along great, he's basically like a grandchild to me, without all the drama of having had a teenage daughter get preggers) has been extremely easy for me. What I lack a bit in the speed I had 16 years ago I more than make up in patience and the knowledge to get things done with my words rather than my hands. I admit that some of that is because I *did* already raise two children, but I don't believe that it's solely based on that. As you get older you often develop a certain amount of calm that most people just don't have in their 20s, or at least I did. The 3 year old can do things now that I barely pay any mind to that would have driven me insane 16 years ago.

 

[lizzo76]

As I told people when I had my first kid at 21 "I'm young enough to keep up with her now and I'll be young enough to enjoy life when she's moved out." Of course, I didn't realize then that I meant I would be going back to school to become a doctor

That said, I'll throw a wrench into my own statement and say this: keeping up with my ex-wife's 2-almost-3 year old (my ex and I get along great, he's basically like a grandchild to me, without all the drama of having had a teenage daughter get preggers) has been extremely easy for me. What I lack a bit in the speed I had 16 years ago I more than make up in patience and the knowledge to get things done with my words rather than my hands. I admit that some of that is because I *did* already raise two children, but I don't believe that it's solely based on that. As you get older you often develop a certain amount of calm that most people just don't have in their 20s, or at least I did. The 3 year old can do things now that I barely pay any mind to that would have driven me insane 16 years ago.

Your statement as a 21-year-old, though, was made from the perspective of a 21-year-old, who must think that 50-something is too old to enjoy life. I would have to disagree with that, and as you are older now, perhaps you also disagree with that. Having children in one's 30s is NOT the same as having them in one's 40s. If women are still able, pretty easily, to get pregnant at 34, with no medical help, then that means women are biologically meant to have children at that age, and not just at 18. (15 is actually NOT a peak fertile time, biologically-speaking, despite what another poster said.) It's very common these days and it's not extreme - we're not talking about people who were so career-driven that they find themselves in their 40s without children needing IVF - we're talking about people who took a decade or a little longer for themselves, and now are having children at a time when most can still easily do so. I would advocate for the OP waiting, if she truly wants to go to medical school (which I don't think is a given.) Someone in their mid-30s who has taken care of herself should have a decent amount of energy. Sure, trying to balance work and a child is hard, but it's hard for people at any age - a 25-year-old who is in med school and is raising a baby will probably be just as run-down, and maybe more so, than a 34-year old who works and is raising a baby.

Other issues to consider are financial stability (generally greater when one is older) and, as the poster I quoted said, patience, and other intangibles like that. In my experience, older people actually make somewhat better parents for a number of reasons. Of course that is a very controversial statement, but in any case, there are pros and cons to having children at either age.

I'll again stress that I would not unnecessarily saddle myself with extra responsibility while in med school if I could avoid it. And, being only 22 (which I don't really consider non-trad, except for the fact that you're married) puts you in a great situation to wait.

 

[NightGod]

Your statement as a 21-year-old, though, was made from the perspective of a 21-year-old, who must think that 50-something is too old to enjoy life.

To be clear, what I meant when I said that was that I thought I would be able to do a lot more fun things as a 40 year old with a grown child than as a 21 year old with no children. Better money, better connections, better life experience in general. Basically I was saying that I thought 40-49 was a better time to party than 21-30. Trust me, I know that 50+ (and 60+) plus people can have plenty of fun. I met a couple recently who were retired and were coming back to their favorite vacation spot because it was within driving distance of white water rafting and multiple zip-line tours and I've known people like that for most of my life. Baring catastrophic injury, I have (and always have) plan on being exactly that type of person as I age.

All that is a bit of an aside, of course. In short, for the OP, anyone who says you are selfish or crazy for putting off stating a family to finish med school is short-sighted or wildly inexperienced. Children are a wonderful thing and I wouldn't trade mine for the world, but they're far from the only dream worth pursuing in our lives.

 

[Medhopeful22]

Thanks for your message. I really appreciated the input.

 

[Medhopeful22]

Lizzo76 - thank you for your input. Especially coming from where you are!

 

[Medhopeful22]

Emerald84 - I would REALLY appreciate you putting me contact with those nurses. I think that would provide an excellent opportunity for discussion and input!

 

[MedSchoolMa]

I think that we are only limited by what we limit ourselves from doing. I disagree with that article too (So much so, that I wrote about it on my blog...lol)

I am a mother and full time medical student who just finished her first year. I am not the only mother in my class either. By the grace of God I found balance and not only excelled in school, but didn't compromise my role as mom to a toddler either. I think that when your commitment to being a mother is a priority, you will not short-change your children at the expense of your career; and with that being said, who says that you have to? Men make the decision all the time to pursue professional interests "at the expense of family" and no one questions them. But I think that women are wired not to do this, and to do the best of their ability to overcompensate. I feel that because I am able to simultaneously pursue my dream, I have become a better mother. And when I am practicing medicine, I will be a great doctor when I feel that I am first a great wife and mother at home...

I think if being an MD is your dream, you should go for. Set the standard for yourself and not look back.

 

[Velocity]

What ever you choose, don't look back. I was born during my mother's last year of medical school, after she had completed her PhD (she was in her late 20's). She went on to do a residency and a fellowship in a field that isn't too time-demanding, yet I didn't see as much of her as my classmates saw of their own mothers. Speaking to my mother now, I can tell that she's frustrated by the fact that she couldn't spend more time "being a mother" and she feels that her job got in the way. Yet if you asked her if she would go back and change anything, she would tell you no. She loves what she does, and things have turned out just fine.

Maybe you'll end up in a specialty or a position where you can spend as much time with your children as a "normal" parent; maybe you'll end up such that you get barely any time with your children. Nobody can say for certain, just as nobody can say for certain that your children would "turn out OK" no matter how much or little time that you spend with them. There are too many variables involved. Don't try to calculate the outcomes - decide what's right for you, and if you have it in you, do it and make the rest work out as best you can. Such is life.

 

[mommy2three]

is it possible for your children to be normal?
i think mine survived first year relatively intact
no they did not get to do every activity that they wanted, no they did not get to go to every friend's birthday party or last minute invite for a gathering....but yes we made sure we had dinner together ever night and we made sure we did our family lunch on the weekends.

what have they learned??
they have learned that anything is possible if you put your mind to it.
they have seen what hard work, dedication and sheer determination can get you places your mind can only dream of.
they have seen you are never too old to follow your dreams.
that sometimes, to get where we want, we have to make sacrifices but we will never sacrifice the things that are most important at the sake of everything. we will never put anything above our family

and they are so proud of me. my 8 yr old son tells everyone that his momma is going to be a doctor. even complete strangers

so are they normal??? yes....although the amount of body aches and pains and "mommy fix this please" has dramatically increased since last august

 

[NightGod]

so are they normal??? yes....although the amount of body aches and pains and "mommy fix this please" has dramatically increased since last august

I get that with my 14 & 16 year old, as well as chunks of my family and friends and I just completed my first year of pre-reqs! I've gotten tired of prefacing everything with "you DO realize I haven't even taken the most basic of medical classes, RIGHT?" and just give them whatever info I have from the entirely too much reading I tend to do.

 

[ruraldocmom]

You know you're offense is offensive come to think of it.

So women are joining the work force and ascending the ranks. Busting glass ceilings at unprecedented rates. Good. Good for vagina kind. Good for all of us in the knowledge economy where female socialization patterns are much more useful.

But you know. You're gonna suck as a parent more. Just like men have for the last century as a false and unhuman nuclear family life entered the mainstream. We use to at least live on family farms with extended relations of all sorts. And the more you're taking the weight and stressing out more. You're also gonna die earlier. Have heart disease more. Start eating on corporate accounts, woofing down steaks more. Start smoking cigars more and taking strippers back to the hotel for some pathetic attempt to fill the void more. Because you just spent the day convincing people about the meaningfulness of the unmeaningful more.

Welcome.

But. The supermom mythology of the bygone eras will not survive. The dwindling numbers of wealthy suburban pro moms can no longer sustain it. And the media will raise your kids. With their peers playing the largest role in what they think is important.

All the more so. When you're at the hospital.

These are facts. Not the slanderous offense of the internet mongers seeking to undermine your sense of self.

thanks. I think spending the last couple of years before medical school in the pretense of isn't-johnny-cute just to avoid offending the overly sensitive when Johnny is a little f'n prick of a sorry human...created the need for this rant.

OP, I've got two pre-school kids. If I didn't get into med school this year, I planned to apply to PA & NP programs next year. However, don't think I would be truly fulfilled there. I value the autonomy of being a physician among other things. But it was tempting... the less intense schooling and residency being primary inducements! But, its a trade-off. Even though my husband is totally on board, the lion's share of day-to-day kid rearing will be his for the next 8 years. We have a plan to give me as much time as possible with the kids, and I think the during the Med School years, its going to be do-able, but those residency years are going to be pretty awful. Anyway--I can't imagine doing this without my saint of a husband.

B, I'm only on here weekly-ish, sorry for the delay in response... I do realize I probably jumped to offense at your statement. And I appreciate you taking the time to explain yourself. And I see what you are saying from a theoretical standpoint.

However, in these matters of shall we say, female decision making... I just find that SDN offers a lot of theoretical male opinions, and a lot of practical life-applicable, been there done that female ones. I guess I'm mostly asking for a little less fear-mongering theoreticals & stereotyping. Based on your self analysis, you do seem to realize that parenthood is freaking hard, and it is such a raw place full of emotion. I felt like your original post made it seem like a Mom choosing med school with kids was tantamount to a risk of child neglect & endangerment, unless the child happens to miraculously turn out like you? I think maybe you just didn't explain the entirety of your opinion, since your follow-ups appear more nuanced. I'm glad you have a sociological point of view, and I'm sorry that I'm offensed, by your offense at my offense. As you needed a rant, apparently, I also needed to rant against the theoretical sociological crap that doesn't take individuality into account.

Anyway, I'm just glad Dr. Midlife posted, because I was trying to think of her to tell the OP to read her stuff.

And, B-- I think we are probably on the same page on this one. I agree that the supermom is a myth, support is totally critical to raising kids, there is always a trade-off when a parent works long hours (med-school or otherwise), and often moms end up shouldering most of the childcare burdens (though I have to say, not always, and not in my case, where my husband does far more than his share). Deep breath, and moving right along...

 

[sindadel]

I can't really speak to whether or not NP/midwife would be fulfilling enough to you; however, usually, if you are asking the question, the answer is no. So probably pursuing the MD route is more likely to give you the career satisfaction you are looking for.

Regarding the timing of children, I think there are several good reasons to consider having them before medical school:

1. Fertility does decline quite substantially by the mid-thirties, and although many women are choosing to postpone childbearing till then such that it is the new normal, that doesn't mean that doing so doesn't have a cost.

2. You are currently in a career which (unlike medicine) is quite flexible and supportive of young women with young families.

3. Unlike most 22-year-olds, you are married and (presumably) in a position to reasonably consider having children with your life partner.

4. Having children before pursuing medicine gives you the opportunity to:
a) find out what is important to you as a parent, and then do it. You may discover that it is vitally important to you to be there for all the 'firsts' or you may find out that the day-to-day tasks of parenthood bore you to tears and you can't wait to get back in the saddle, spend some quality time with your babies at the end of the day and get on with your career. This may in fact answer the question of NP vs MD for you in itself!
b) pursue medicine full-time once you begin because you are no longer in the infant/toddler years of sleepless nights, runny noses and diapers.
c) have an invaluable grounding system to keep the inevitable stresses and panics of medical school in perspective.

*I have three children and am in my final year of MD school. I think I'm still a pretty good mom, but there's no denying that med school has asked a lot of my family. I certainly couldn't have done it without the incredible support of my husband*

 

[anotherteenmom]

I know I'm jumping in late, but honestly, its a choice that you have to make. There is no "right" or "wrong" answer. Only what is right and wrong for YOU and YOUR situation.

I'm married and I have three kids. I'm in school (undergraduate) and even that dominates a lot of my time. I breastfeed, I cloth diaper, I sew, I cook, I clean, and I make it work. I was torn on the decision too, but if I put the effort in now, my children won't remember how we struggled before. I can finish, before they're old enough to remember. On top of that, I have my husband's support. The way I see it, I'd be setting a bad example by not reaching for my goals, and not taking the "risk."

Is it easy? No. But babies don't come with manuals, and what's right for me, could be wrong for you.

 

[muhali3]

read it. balancing both is hard...but possible.

 

[pinkzebra]

my close friend's parents are both physicians. her mother is a pedi optho and her father is in academic medicine and teaches at a prestigious local university. her mother had her first child (my friend's older sister) three years before she began medical school (so she entered med school with a 3 year old)...had my friend when she was a 2nd year med student...and my friend's younger sister when she was a 1st year resident. my friend and her siblings are all bright, responsible, truly wonderful people. her parents are my inspiration

 

[ucsfstudents]

Yes, it is possible to be an MD and a good mother. But it's not easy. Check out MomMD and some other women physician sites.

 

[BlestMama]

what have they learned??
they have learned that anything is possible if you put your mind to it.
they have seen what hard work, dedication and sheer determination can get you places your mind can only dream of.
they have seen you are never too old to follow your dreams.
that sometimes, to get where we want, we have to make sacrifices but we will never sacrifice the things that are most important at the sake of everything. we will never put anything above our family

This! This made me all weepy. This is what helps me deal with the time I miss spending with my daughter. This is what keeps me going.