Help With Loupes

[DentalPersian]

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I'm a DS1 that will be starting school this June. I've been informed that I will need to procure a pair of loupes during my first year. After reading many posts on this website regarding loupes (most were old) I have found that it is in my best interest to research what loupes to buy now during my off time before school. I've already spoken with my school and they told me to not buy them yet since they have a "technology day" when we have Surgitel and Orascopic reps come to the school and talk to us about loupes. So I'm looking to educate myself and learn the differences between them all so I can make an informed investment for my future. I've also been in contact with a Zeiss rep since he lives close to me and he's currently trying to get me a demo unit.

If you guys could let me know about your loupes research, or about your experiences with the loupes you currently have/are going to get. As well as what you like/dislike about them. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

 

[TeethRgreat]

I'm a DS1 that will be starting school this June. I've been informed that I will need to procure a pair of loupes during my first year. After reading many posts on this website regarding loupes (most were old) I have found that it is in my best interest to research what loupes to buy now during my off time before school. I've already spoken with my school and they told me to not buy them yet since they have a "technology day" when we have Surgitel and Orascopic reps come to the school and talk to us about loupes. So I'm looking to educate myself and learn the differences between them all so I can make an informed investment for my future. I've also been in contact with a Zeiss rep since he lives close to me and he's currently trying to get me a demo unit.

If you guys could let me know about your loupes research, or about your experiences with the loupes you currently have/are going to get. As well as what you like/dislike about them. I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks in advance!

Surgitel and Orascopic are both good in their own ways.

Surgitel flip downs are very convenient, and light. However they do feel pretty flimsy and I have heard some quality control issues; but the majority of the people i know that have them LOVE them.

Orascoptic TTL loupes are great too. Very "affordable" and strong.'

One MAJOR difference between the two brands is the scope of field (in other words, how much you see). TTL loupes that orascoptic offers have the scope much closer to your eye, so you can see WAYYYY more than surgitel. That's been the only thing holding me back from purchasing a pair of surgitels as a backup pair(and the high price tag of $1500ish for 3.5s...the oracoptics were around $1200 for 3.5s.)

Also make sure you buy a light

 

[dmdluffy]

You want the best combo for you in terms of magnification (see things bigger), working distance (the distance between your eyes and your hands) and field of vision (how much you can see). Things to keep in mind are the higher the mag, the more important a light becomes as well as the decreasing amount of depth of field you'll get. There are other brands to check out too for TTL (Design for Vision) or Flip Ups (Zeiss). It's hard to know what you'll really like without wearing them and working with them so you may try to get in contact with any dental student friends or reps.

 

[aznboi89x]

i have TTL from surgitel 2.5X and seems comfortable for me. I have the oakley flak jackets.

 

[DukeW]

In regards to magnification, I would never recommend getting anything lower than 3.0x. Within weeks of using them, you're hungry for higher mag. Most students are happy at 3.5x and they allow a variety of work.

I'm also not a fan of FLM. I first owned a pair of Surgitel micro FLM 3.0x on their standard Aero frame. They are an excellent pair of loupes - light, good field (not spectacular though), flexible working distance. However they were tedious to clean and in my opinion, more moving parts is not a good thing if you can avoid it. They're also a bit bulkier and, a minor consideration, a little more confronting for patients (particularly paeds).

 

[SoColdInTheD]

If anybody has purchased the orascoptic 2.5x how much did they run? around $1,000-1,200 im guessing?

 

[Odontos2015]

The general consensus on loupes, info I've gathered from SDN, classmates, and experience:
-don't by them before starting school, wait until all the vendors visit to promote their products.
-generations of dentists never used loupes, so any magnification will be of benefit.
-start with low mag (2.5x) and move up if needed. (I started high and had to downgrade).
-2.5x is sufficient for common general dental procedures (supported by Gordon Christensen, one of the world's foremost experts on prosthodontics)
-Very tall people might want a higher mag
-Flip up pros: versatile, convenient, adjustable, easy Rx changes, can adjust declination depending on positioning for a specific procedure (most docs just use the deepest angle).
-Flip up cons: heavy, more breakage, need to readjust, narrower field.
-TTL pros: lighter, wider field, always adjusted correctly, less breakage
-TTL cons: need to look over magnifiers to see the whole mouth, complicated Rx changes, complicated adjustments if needed. Stuck with one declination setting.
-Surgitel, orascoptic, DFV, Q-optics, are of good and similar quality. The similarities outnumber the differences. DFV only offers TTL.
-Some say Carl Zeiss and Heine are a grade above the other 3 (Zeiss is a few hundred $more), but most beginner students probably can't tell the difference. Both only come in flip-ups.
-Those who go with the lesser known brands (peri-optix, sheer, sally g, zoom optix) seem to be equally satisfied.
-Those who buy the least expensive ones from ebay, amazon etc usually upgrade before seeing patients.
-http://www.zoomoptix.com/ might be a good "middle of the road" option for anyone not sure about loupes.
-Use of a light is beneficial, and necessary for higher mags (3.3 and up) due to the physics of magnification (higher mag=smaller field=less natural light passing through).

Read Gordy's article:
http://www.saudident.com/album/data/media/2/magnification_in_dentistry.pdf

 

[dmdluffy]

Why would a taller person want more mag? Wouldn't they need increased working distance?
Zeiss is awesome. The clarity of the optics they use are better and help with eye fatigue/strain.

 

[andysfl]

Can someone recommend a good sports frame to mount the Zeiss prismatic? The OEM frame is not providing enough coverage for me. Thanks guys.

 

[Flipper405]

Why would a taller person want more mag? Wouldn't they need increased working distance?
Zeiss is awesome. The clarity of the optics they use are better and help with eye fatigue/strain.

Theoretically both will help because at the increased working distance, the image will still be smaller due to being further away. The working distance only relates to the focus...

Anyway, I used DFV throughout dental school - started with 2.5x and got 3.5x when I got to clinic. Love them and recommend them. Just as important is to get a headlight to mount on your loupes... really helps when probing those distobuccal pockets on #16 😎

 

[txaggie03]

Heine.

I cant say enough good things about them. The clarity alone sold me.

I havent tried another pair that comes remotely close the the depth of focus.

 

[Bereno]

Heine.

I cant say enough good things about them. The clarity alone sold me.

I havent tried another pair that comes remotely close the the depth of focus.

Heine would have been my first choice... if they made a TTL lol

OP: I like my Orascoptic 3.8s 👍

 

[txaggie03]

Heine would have been my first choice... if they made a TTL lol

OP: I like my Orascoptic 3.8s 👍

I can understand wanting TTL for simplicity and weight.



That said, I really use the features of the flip ups quite often though:

Depending on where in the mouth I am working or where I am sitting, I can change the angle of the lens and not the angle of my neck.

Sometimes I dont want magnification and I just want good light, and they allow the lenses to flip up out of the way and still have the light centered where I need it.

Clean up of the safety lenses and the magnification lenses is easy, as there is no "seam."


They were pricey at 1675, but I feel they were money well spent, and hopefully will last a long while.


When I eventually get a higher mag (5 or 6) pair for endo, I will take a hard look at Heine. Although another German manufacture in in the radar...

 

[Bereno]

I can understand wanting TTL for simplicity and weight.



That said, I really use the features of the flip ups quite often though:

Depending on where in the mouth I am working or where I am sitting, I can change the angle of the lens and not the angle of my neck.

Sometimes I dont want magnification and I just want good light, and they allow the lenses to flip up out of the way and still have the light centered where I need it.

Clean up of the safety lenses and the magnification lenses is easy, as there is no "seam."


They were pricey at 1675, but I feel they were money well spent, and hopefully will last a long while.


When I eventually get a higher mag (5 or 6) pair for endo, I will take a hard look at Heine. Although another German manufacture in in the radar...

Zeiss? You make wonderful points - can't ignore those. The decision for me was the field of view with the TTL. I could not find anything that could show as much of the mouth with the zoom I wanted in a flip up. The other perks are like you mentioned, lighter, less moving parts, but also the lens is so much closer to the eye. When I reach full clinical hours in my third year, the flip up might become attractive when moving between the mouth and things like paperwork. Who knows haha 🙂

Side Note: I have always wondered how to keep the flip ups sterile when working... You have a method that works for you?

 

[dmdluffy]

Zeiss? You make wonderful points - can't ignore those. The decision for me was the field of view with the TTL. I could not find anything that could show as much of the mouth with the zoom I wanted in a flip up. The other perks are like you mentioned, lighter, less moving parts, but also the lens is so much closer to the eye. When I reach full clinical hours in my third year, the flip up might become attractive when moving between the mouth and things like paperwork. Who knows haha 🙂

Side Note: I have always wondered how to keep the flip ups sterile when working... You have a method that works for you?

My flip ups came with a little detachable plastic piece that snaps onto the body and can be used to move the the whole setup. Detach and clean after.

 

[txaggie03]

My flip ups came with a little detachable plastic piece that snaps onto the body and can be used to move the the whole setup. Detach and clean after.

Mine, too, have the autoclaveable handle that can be removed. However, I've found it is much easier to put some of the sticky blue plastic on it.




Also, OP, the good thing about loupes is that you're not married to them. You can have several pairs and pick what suits your fancy for a particular procedure or a particular day. 2-3k on equipment you'll use every day over your 30+ years of practicing is the least of your worries.

 

[ultraspec]

Out of curiosity, when you look for loupes has anyone been concerned with the distortion? For instance, if you stare at a piece of lined graph paper with your loupes do you see the lines straight and clear or are they bent and warped? I image the more lens elements you have, then the less distortion regardless of galilean or prismatic.

 

[txaggie03]

Out of curiosity, when you look for loupes has anyone been concerned with the distortion? For instance, if you stare at a piece of lined graph paper with your loupes do you see the lines straight and clear or are they bent and warped? I image the more lens elements you have, then the less distortion regardless of galilean or prismatic.

I was. Not only was I worried about distortion, but chromatic aberrations. I first noticed it with a pair of surgitel loupes (not trying to single any manufacture out); I looked down at a piece of paper with type on it, and the lenses broke out the yellows and blues from the black on white-background typeface.

I went home to my optometrist, and she explained it was due to crummy lenses.

Most loupe lenses are cast glass. Higher end loupe lenses are ground. Casting the lenses into their final shape causes discrepancies at the edges due to the material cooling at different rates. Ground lenses start as a cube of glass and grind away the imperfections. Heine, in particular, uses glass from Schott.

 

[ultraspec]

I was. Not only was I worried about distortion, but chromatic aberrations. I first noticed it with a pair of surgitel loupes (not trying to single any manufacture out); I looked down at a piece of paper with type on it, and the lenses broke out the yellows and blues from the black on white-background typeface.

I went home to my optometrist, and she explained it was due to crummy lenses.

Most loupe lenses are cast glass. Higher end loupe lenses are ground. Casting the lenses into their final shape causes discrepancies at the edges due to the material cooling at different rates. Ground lenses start as a cube of glass and grind away the imperfections. Heine, in particular, uses glass from Schott.

Cool. I thought I was the only person who was bothered by chromatic aberrations. I refused to wear polycarbonate eye glasses, instead opting for high index plastic when I was a kid, because of the purple fringing.

Good to know about how it occurs in the manufacturing process, I will definitely ask if the lenses are ground or cast when I buy my loupes. Do you know of any other companies that also grind their lenses?

 

[txaggie03]

Do you know of any other companies that also grind their lenses?

Zeiss likely does.
I also know Keeler uses Schott glass. I tried and liked the Keeler loupes, but they are noticeably heavier than the Heines.

 

[ultraspec]

Zeiss likely does.
I also know Keeler uses Schott glass. I tried and liked the Keeler loupes, but they are noticeably heavier than the Heines.

Thanks for the research txaggie03. 🙂 I'll have to try to find out.

 

[FlyingSky]

Out of curiosity could you guys share your height and working distance? Would really appreciate.

 

[FlyingSky]

Out of curiosity could you guys share your height and working distance? Would really appreciate.

anyone? 🙂

 

[Bereno]

Heine an Zeiss grind their own lenses from what I understand. My biggest complaint is chromatic aberrations as well, especially for color, however I think my Orascoptic do pretty well (not as well as Heine and Zeiss though), so the trade-off was worth it for me.

I believe my working distance is 19.5 inches.

 

[OhioDMD]

Out of curiosity could you guys share your height and working distance? Would really appreciate.

I use the Zeiss Eye Mag Pro 3.5x with a 400mm (14in) working length. I am 5'10" probably too close for someone who wants erect sitting posture but it works for me.

 

[iiiiiiii]

.

 

[iiiiiiii]

I bought Designs for Vision TTL 2.5x, yeoman frame. The first few months the working distance was too short and the declination angle wasn't steep enough, it was causing me to hunch over and made my back hurt after an hour or two of working (opposite of what they are supposed to do lol). I sent them in and had them adjusted and they are waaaaaay better.
Take advantage of the free adjustments if needed.
Pay attention to your posture while while using them, most people in my class have horrible posture even while using loupes.

 

[DukeW]

I truly think that if you're willing and able to fork out some cash for a high end pair of loupes it is silly to get 2.5x. I think 3.0x should be minimum and while you're at it, get a decent headlight.

I agree with the comments above mentioning moving parts issues with FLMs. I have a pair of Surgitel Micros 3.0x FLMs and recently got a pair of 3.5x TTLs. Love them both, but find the TTLs much easier to maintain and keep clean.