Help!!!!!!!

[phishee]

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Hi everyone,
I know it's late but I hope that someone can give me some advice before morning time. I got an acceptance to medical school and my current boss wrote one of my LORs. There is a bit of turmoil at work and tomorrow I feel like I am either going to quit or be fired by the most incompetent man I have ever met (can you tell I'm angry?). I feel like I have been doing an excellent job and that this current situation is a result of a power trip. Anyway, I want to know if he can somehow write to the school and say something bad about me. And if the school will the retract my acceptance. If he does say something bad, will the school give me a chance to defend myself??
I used virtual evals through my current university if that makes a difference.
Please help! I need advice before tomorrow, because I would rather quit than have to grovel or be fired by him. But I don't want to do so if it means I will not get to go to medical school!

 

[brianmartin]

I don't know how it works, but I would think that if he already submitted the letter, there would be a certain date beyond which it couldn't be changed.

Also, how essential is the letter? Can you have it withdrawn?

 

[Falco2525]

Hi everyone,
I know it's late but I hope that someone can give me some advice before morning time. I got an acceptance to medical school and my current boss wrote one of my LORs. There is a bit of turmoil at work and tomorrow I feel like I am either going to quit or be fired by the most incompetent man I have ever met (can you tell I'm angry?). I feel like I have been doing an excellent job and that this current situation is a result of a power trip. Anyway, I want to know if he can somehow write to the school and say something bad about me. And if the school will the retract my acceptance. If he does say something bad, will the school give me a chance to defend myself??
I used virtual evals through my current university if that makes a difference.
Please help! I need advice before tomorrow, because I would rather quit than have to grovel or be fired by him. But I don't want to do so if it means I will not get to go to medical school!

unless you have done something really really bad (like steal or cheat) then you should be okay. If he does I am sure you would get your chance to explain to the school your side and it is highly unlikely it would affect your acceptance. I dont think you have anything to really worry about.

 

[Dzeteo]

Hi everyone,
I know it's late but I hope that someone can give me some advice before morning time. I got an acceptance to medical school and my current boss wrote one of my LORs. There is a bit of turmoil at work and tomorrow I feel like I am either going to quit or be fired by the most incompetent man I have ever met (can you tell I'm angry?). I feel like I have been doing an excellent job and that this current situation is a result of a power trip. Anyway, I want to know if he can somehow write to the school and say something bad about me. And if the school will the retract my acceptance. If he does say something bad, will the school give me a chance to defend myself??
I used virtual evals through my current university if that makes a difference.
Please help! I need advice before tomorrow, because I would rather quit than have to grovel or be fired by him. But I don't want to do so if it means I will not get to go to medical school!

I think you're fine. I think any intelligent adcom would see right through his tactics if he tried something underhanded like that. So unless you did something REALLY bad, I do not think he can touch you. Besides, the deadline for LORs is passed, I suppose they probably wouldn't even let him have a word in edgewise. I wouldn't worry...unless there is something you're not telling us. Did you kill someone?

 

[phishee]

I wouldn't worry...unless there is something you're not telling us. Did you kill someone?

LOL no. Honestly, I cannot really pinpoint what I did. I've been doing the same job I have been doing for the last year and a half. We received some stipulations from the IRB for one of our projects and I emailed the IRB coordinator back with some questions. And I cc'ed him on the email (this was my mistake I guess). Apparently, he felt this was overstepping my bounds, which is really confusing bc I talk to the IRB all the time about clarifying what they want to see in the paperwork. I usually don't cc him on it bc as most people in research know, PI's are kinda oblivious to most of what's going on.
The second thing I did was ask for clarification about who was supposed to fill out the paperwork for this particular project. To him, this showed that I was not interested in the project and did not understand my responsibilities.
Lastly, he asked me to come in yesterday for an impromptu & unnecessary meeting. But he told me this the night before. I have a sick dad, which he knows about, and had to take him to the doctor that day. I explained this to him and he says that I am "refusing to come in to the office". This is a part-time job btw, and the other participant couldn't go to the meeting either.
I could go on and on, but it's late and you guys probably don't want to hear me whine. I'm just upset bc I've been dealing with his antics and verbal and (minor) sexual harassment for a while now.

Thanks for the advice you guys. It makes me feel a lot better.

 

[gary5]

A written acceptance is a form of contract. I would not worry about the med school trying to retract the acceptance. If your boss wrote your LOR before, then he did recommend you then. You would have to do something concrete and severe for the med school to do a retraction, like a felony or flunking out of undergrad.

I think you're overreacting about your boss. There are many difficult people in this world and they can be very angry. Thus, there are lots of stressed employees in this world. You've heard of job stress - this is it. Anyway, don't quit your job. Do your best, if you are corrected, then be more careful next time.

 

[Pkboi24]

Threaten him with the sexual harrassment...lol

 

[GoLAClippers]

Threaten him with the sexual harrassment...lol

Phishee is a female?

 

[SemperFi]

If you were looking for another job, it would actually be illegal for him to give you a bad recommendation. As I understand it, the worst a superior can legally do is decline to give you a recommendation. I suspect there exists similar controls for your situation. Also, as most others have said here, you're likely safe since you have already been accepted. That one letter did not get you accepted, and I doubt it could get you unaccepted.

 

[cubbbie]

Ok, assuming he doesn't fire you ... I'd say give it a few days. Research sucks. Lots of research peons have experiences like this. But don't be too hasty here.

Can you're boss screw you over? Probably not. But in general, if at all possible, I think it is best to not burn bridges. There is an end in sight, so ride it out if you can and hopefully things will improve and you can leave on better terms. In the long run, that'll be better for you, even if it absolutely sucks right now. You never know how a brash decision might come back to haunt you (the medical community is a very, very small one), and you really have to weigh if it's worth destroying 1.5 years of solid work and a good reputation.

Just give it a few days is all I'm saying. I really think you'll be glad you did.

(And by the way -- don't think this is the last time you're going to have to deal with these kinds of people. Your boss is not an anomaly, and by starting med school you're about to enter into his world. You need to find a way to cope with these kinds of people without quitting.)

*** and let us know what happens! ***

 

[Depakote]

This, like most things, will blow over. I work with people that get fired up sometimes and it always cools down.

There were some great points mentioned before. If your boss decided to try to sabotage your acceptance (which is highly unlikely), he couldn't. A school that has already accepted you is not going to just un-accept you b/c somebody is being petty and taking their argument to them (which would be monumentally un-professional).

Just give this a few days, you'll be fine and you'll be out of there in a matter of months. Light at the end of the tunnel.

 

[TheAmazingGOB]

Yeah, I've been in a similar situation. Just out of curiousity, did your PI's attitude towards you change once you got accepted? My PI turned into a huge jerk after I was accepted. Why do so many PhDs have MD envy?

Anyway, what everyone else said is right on, a school can't withdraw your acceptance just because you have a petty boss.

 

[Depakote]

Yeah, I've been in a similar situation. Just out of curiousity, did your PI's attitude towards you change once you got accepted? My PI turned into a huge jerk after I was accepted. Why do so many PhDs have MD envy?

Anyway, what everyone else said is right on, a school can't withdraw your acceptance just because you have a petty boss.

(side note)
Interestingly enough... if I noticed a change it would be that my PI (MD, Ph.D.) started treating me a LOT nicer when he found out I was applying and was thrilled when I got in... now my immediate supervisor on the other hand? I'm not sure, but when I told him I was going to be leaving for med school in ~9 months or so, my workload roughly doubled over the next 6 weeks. Co-incidence?

 

[NickRiviera]

A written acceptance is a form of contract. I would not worry about the med school trying to retract the acceptance.

I disagree. What would stop a medical school from retracting your application? Students can get booted in MS-4 for cheating and never be able to get their degree. If a school sees risk in a student to their program or to the public as a physician, I'd think they would cut you.

If you were looking for another job, it would actually be illegal for him to give you a bad recommendation.

This is true for occupations only as these laws do not cover schools. Preventing someone from making a living is different from preventing them from attending a selective school.

I do think that a school could retract an acceptance if they receive and agree on evidence you would not be a good physician. This would have to outweigh everything else you've done, but it could happen. I think you might be underestimating how tight-knit the medical field is.

 

[sistahnik]

This is a good question and I would like to know also. 🙂

 

[sistahnik]

Sorry, my post ended up in the wrong thread! 🙄

 

[cubbbie]

I disagree.What would stop a medical school from retracting your application?

Yeah, they definitely can retract an acceptance, but they would have to have grounds for doing so, and while it is probably at their discretion, schools do try to formalize those grounds. Certainly you could get in trouble if you 1.) broke any laws 2.) lied on your application (or didn't include essential information) 3.) your academic performance dropped post-acceptance, or you didn't complete your requirements.

Obviously, those are largely open to interpretation, so if your boss were a total monster, he could try to find a way to get you kicked out and he may succeed if you or your record/application is not lily white. I really do not think this is going to happen to you, but as I said in my original post, the more "bad vibes" you accumulate in the course of your career, the more likely it is that eventually it will.

I think you might be underestimating how tight-knit the medical field is

I totally agree with this. As I said before, think very carefully before you take action.

 

[gary5]

I disagree. What would stop a medical school from retracting your application? Students can get booted in MS-4 for cheating and never be able to get their degree. If a school sees risk in a student to their program or to the public as a physician, I'd think they would cut you.

Yes, of course, a med school can retract an acceptance. However, adcoms are not whimsical. They receive applications, interview people, discuss applicants in committee, and offer acceptances. They are not likely to retract an acceptance because a manager who provided an LOR now is less supportive of the applicant. The original LOR speaks for itself.

As for med students getting thrown out of med school for cheating, this is one of the worst offenses that a med student can commit. Integrity is very important in medicine. It is standard practice to expel students who cheat. An individual who lacks integrity in med school will lack integrity when dealing with patients, and so this individual must be prevented from graduating.

 

[cal_girl]

It would be really unprofessional of your boss to withdraw the letter...
and what other ppl would say about that?
I dun think the boss would likely to do it unless he/she is an idiot... who takes back whatever he/she said it before.

Professional ppl usually think/decide before doing something, withdrawing something is so unprofessional.🙄

 

[NickRiviera]

Yes, of course, a med school can retract an acceptance. However, adcoms are not whimsical. They receive applications, interview people, discuss applicants in committee, and offer acceptances. They are not likely to retract an acceptance because a manager who provided an LOR now is less supportive of the applicant. The original LOR speaks for itself.

You truly believe an ADCOM wouldn't receive information about an applicant, review it, and reject them...even if it is just hearsay? Last fall someone's angry girlfriend posted lots of information on SDN pretending to be their boyfriend and he had interviews withdrawn because of it. Another student said some negative things at a residency interview and the interviewer called around to make sure they didn't get into other programs. Again, very tight-knit.

Lets say you're on an ADCOM and a student's recommender calls or writes. They say very negative things about the student and that they felt forced to write the original letter. Would you just ignore this? Would you call or write the student to have them dispute it, maybe elevate it legally? Would you reject them?

 

[NickRiviera]

It would be really unprofessional of your boss to withdraw the letter...
and what other ppl would say about that?
I dun think the boss would likely to do it unless he/she is an idiot... who takes back whatever he/she said it before.

Professional ppl usually think/decide before doing something, withdrawing something is so unprofessional.🙄

Yea, very unprofessional, but if you're the boss then who cares what some medical school ADCOM thinks about you. Your employee who you hate didn't get in so you got your sweet revenge. It's not about the boss, it's about the poor OP...if the boss actually were to do this, which seems unlikely.

 

[TheCybermen]

Yeah, I've been in a similar situation. Just out of curiousity, did your PI's attitude towards you change once you got accepted? My PI turned into a huge jerk after I was accepted. Why do so many PhDs have MD envy?

Anyway, what everyone else said is right on, a school can't withdraw your acceptance just because you have a petty boss.

given that the OP is referring to an IRB (institutional review board), it is unlikely that the PI under whom she works is an M.D., as IRBs are largely involved in human subjects research protection and ethico-legal issues that revolve around documents like the Nuremberg Code and Declaration of Helsinki/Belmont Report. IRBs do not generally oversee basic science research with the rigor that they do clinical and/or translational studies.

 

[PennStatMan11]

hi

 

[phishee]

Hi all,
Here are some respones and answers to some questions.
Yes, GoLaClippers I am a girl 🙂
I do clinical studies and my boss is an MD/PhD. He doesn't even know I have an acceptance at this point. Originally I did not tell him, because he would want to take me out to lunch and I would have to deal with the aforementioned harassment. Now, I figure it was a good move since he does not know which school to call. I'm just worried he will find out from someone else that I told, or if he could go through the letter service at my school and do something.
I want to have a break before medical school and I was planning to quit in May anyway, I had already told him this. However, being lazy and cheap he has refused to hire someone for me to train. I do not want to sound whiny and I know that I will have to work with a lot of people with these type of personalities in the future. This is why I have continued working there. Most people in the hospital know what kind of person he is and we've already had two other people quit in the last 6 months. I get comments all the time about how I could possibly still be working there with him.
But I just lost it, when he wrote an email to me commenting on the things I did wrong. It wasn't so much the email, as the fact that he also cc'ed someone from HR! He wanted it to go in my file. I figure if he's already trying to damage my reputation I might as well quit.
I actually tried to resign last night. He emailed me back saying he would not accept the resignation. And if I didn't meet with him to discuss my responsibilities I would be dismissed. To me, this seems like a big egotistical move. He won't let me quit so he can fire me. (Sidenote: it reminds me of the episode of the Office when Michael won't let the new guy quit and then promptly fires him). I offered to stay long enough to see the scheduled patients and he argued with me about how he was going to fire me. And he said I was "threatening him with patient care". What does that even mean??? He also said that being fired was not a good idea, especially for someone who is trying to get into medical school. Is this a veiled threat?? I couldn't tell and just let it go, and went and saw my patient today. This afternoon arrives, and I say "Do you want me to come in tomorrow and Monday". He asks if we have patients and I say yes. He then responds with a "well of course you need to come in if we have patients." I am the only person working there so I don't see how he can afford to fire me. But oh well. I am just trying to do what's in the best interest of the patients and explained this multiple times. Shouldn't he be the one that's worried about the patients? After all, he is the doctor.
I went to talk to HR this morning and they are not putting his mean email in my file. Thank goodness. I told them I was worried about who was going to see the patients, but they told me that it was my boss' problem and not mine. Especially since he refused to hire another person. But I've been seeing these people for over a year and don't think they should suffer.
In conclusion, I am working there till Monday. That is of course, unless something drastic happens....

 

[phishee]

Oh, and thanks to everyone for their input. I really appreciate it!!

 

[cubbbie]

Oh, and thanks to everyone for their input. I really appreciate it!!

I think you have the right attitude about all this, and it was a smart move going to HR. All you can do is be the bigger person. Even if he is being completely irrational, at least others around you will see and respect that you are behaving in a much more professional manner. He does sound a lot like the kind of person who may try to sabotage you, so if I were you, I would get all my ducks in a row before you leave and make sure everything is documented ... just in case.

Sorry to hear all this. Somewhere down the line you'll be able to chalk this up to a personal growing experience.

 

[TheAmazingGOB]

given that the OP is referring to an IRB (institutional review board), it is unlikely that the PI under whom she works is an M.D., as IRBs are largely involved in human subjects research protection and ethico-legal issues that revolve around documents like the Nuremberg Code and Declaration of Helsinki/Belmont Report. IRBs do not generally oversee basic science research with the rigor that they do clinical and/or translational studies.

Uh...yeah. Exactly my point. The OP's PI is NOT an MD and is treating her poorly because the PI has MD envy. I work for a PhD who has some sort of chip on his shoulder about MDs. Hence my theory on MD envy. I'm sure everyone here has experienced it with professors who look down on premeds because of their career goals (and because some premeds are really annoying).

[EDIT: Oops. I read above where the OP said her PI is an MD/PhD, so the MD envy theory does not apply.]

 

[beegeforty4]

I'm not sure if this has already been said or not because I haven't read all the responses, but if your boss does write a letter, etc. to your med school you have can take legal action against him (even if the medical school tells you're still fine to matriculate).

I'm not sure on the exact details (check with a lawyer or the Board of Wage and Labor) but I'm pretty sure your ex-employer cannot give any information bad about an ex-employee other than saying that the company would not re-hire you.

That said, he/she would be a capital a-hole to do so...

 

[beegeforty4]

Hi all,
Here are some respones and answers to some questions.
Yes, GoLaClippers I am a girl 🙂
I do clinical studies and my boss is an MD/PhD. He doesn't even know I have an acceptance at this point. Originally I did not tell him, because he would want to take me out to lunch and I would have to deal with the aforementioned harassment. Now, I figure it was a good move since he does not know which school to call. I'm just worried he will find out from someone else that I told, or if he could go through the letter service at my school and do something.
I want to have a break before medical school and I was planning to quit in May anyway, I had already told him this. However, being lazy and cheap he has refused to hire someone for me to train. I do not want to sound whiny and I know that I will have to work with a lot of people with these type of personalities in the future. This is why I have continued working there. Most people in the hospital know what kind of person he is and we've already had two other people quit in the last 6 months. I get comments all the time about how I could possibly still be working there with him.
But I just lost it, when he wrote an email to me commenting on the things I did wrong. It wasn't so much the email, as the fact that he also cc'ed someone from HR! He wanted it to go in my file. I figure if he's already trying to damage my reputation I might as well quit.
I actually tried to resign last night. He emailed me back saying he would not accept the resignation. And if I didn't meet with him to discuss my responsibilities I would be dismissed. To me, this seems like a big egotistical move. He won't let me quit so he can fire me. (Sidenote: it reminds me of the episode of the Office when Michael won't let the new guy quit and then promptly fires him). I offered to stay long enough to see the scheduled patients and he argued with me about how he was going to fire me. And he said I was "threatening him with patient care". What does that even mean??? He also said that being fired was not a good idea, especially for someone who is trying to get into medical school. Is this a veiled threat?? I couldn't tell and just let it go, and went and saw my patient today. This afternoon arrives, and I say "Do you want me to come in tomorrow and Monday". He asks if we have patients and I say yes. He then responds with a "well of course you need to come in if we have patients." I am the only person working there so I don't see how he can afford to fire me. But oh well. I am just trying to do what's in the best interest of the patients and explained this multiple times. Shouldn't he be the one that's worried about the patients? After all, he is the doctor.
I went to talk to HR this morning and they are not putting his mean email in my file. Thank goodness. I told them I was worried about who was going to see the patients, but they told me that it was my boss' problem and not mine. Especially since he refused to hire another person. But I've been seeing these people for over a year and don't think they should suffer.
In conclusion, I am working there till Monday. That is of course, unless something drastic happens....

Actually now that I read this, it's clearly slander or libel or whatever those law dorks call it, and if you don't have enough money for med school you can sue...I'll take a finders fee if need be 🙂.

 

[TheCybermen]

Uh...yeah. Exactly my point. The OP's PI is NOT an MD and is treating her poorly because the PI has MD envy. I work for a PhD who has some sort of chip on his shoulder about MDs. Hence my theory on MD envy. I'm sure everyone here has experienced it with professors who look down on premeds because of their career goals (and because some premeds are really annoying).

[EDIT: Oops. I read above where the OP said her PI is an MD/PhD, so the MD envy theory does not apply.]

haha -- no you and I are both at fault. i was the idiot here and said the "Pi is unlikely an M.D." where I meant "the PI is likely an MD..." in any case, wasn't taking issue with your post from earlier either, not at all!

 

[NickRiviera]

I'm not sure on the exact details (check with a lawyer or the Board of Wage and Labor) but I'm pretty sure your ex-employer cannot give any information bad about an ex-employee other than saying that the company would not re-hire you.

This applies to work/occupations, not schools. Schools have to mind the common laws (non-labor/wage) like age discrimination, gender discrimination, race discrimination, etc. If there is libel involved, the case is against the person and not the school. The school can still reject you either way...why would they want an applicant that is already in legal trouble? Even if you win the libel case the school might not let you in.

The OP probably did the best think. Contact HR directly about the situation as this gets a 3rd party involved and documents that you were taking action, regardless of what your employer does.

 

[beegeforty4]

This applies to work/occupations, not schools. Schools have to mind the common laws (non-labor/wage) like age discrimination, gender discrimination, race discrimination, etc. If there is libel involved, the case is against the person and not the school. The school can still reject you either way...why would they want an applicant that is already in legal trouble? Even if you win the libel case the school might not let you in.

The OP probably did the best think. Contact HR directly about the situation as this gets a 3rd party involved and documents that you were taking action, regardless of what your employer does.

I'm not disagreeing with your post by any means (since I really don't know much about it), but why would it be legal trouble for the person who is suing the "non-school" entity that libelled? Isn't any form of documented misrepresentation of one's character grounds for committing libel?

I kinda got off the subject of the topic but now I'm curious...


P.S. I totally agree that the OP did the correct thing, too. Talking to the school directly was very important.

 

[gary5]

Well, your boss cannot refuse to accept your resignation, no more than an employee who is being fired can state that they are not fired. All you have to do is email him or type up a letter that states that you are resigning and when your last day will be, and give it to him, and it's done. He has no option to refuse it. In this case, since he's difficult, I would use email, and cc: human resources and bcc: your own non-business email account. I resigned once by sending the email and then handing the printed copy to my boss when we met.

Anyway, it's unfortunate that this was a poor work experience for you, but you have been accepted to a medical school, so the important part has worked out for you.