oncmdphd
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Hello! July 16th was the day that programs gained access to ERAS applications -- when are interview invitations typically sent out?
And...I'm out. Good luck everyone.
Or...you know...just post stuff here where it can't get hijacked, deleted, spammed or otherwise hosed.It appears that the hem/onc spreadsheet stopped working as no one can edit it anymore. I created a new one so people can continue adding the updated information. Please go to this link and SHARE!
https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/1AWOJ_mfJj6TW-tKaXUG4QZ41DH-lwZBIgZLpSZK8pn0/edit?usp=sharing
The signaling thing has been interesting for us on the program side (to say the least!)Anyone else feel that interviews this year have been way random. Compared to residency, it's even more of a crapshoot.
Would you go so far as to call it stupid?The signaling thing has been interesting for us on the program side (to say the least!)
Couldn’t agree more. Head is spinning a bitThe signaling thing has been interesting for us on the program side (to say the least!)
Would love to hear how the programs feel once the match is over. Honestly, I didn't know what to expect, but I am getting a very interesting spread. There really is no predicting where you are going to get an interview based on invitations you already have.The signaling thing has been interesting for us on the program side (to say the least!)
Would you go so far as to call it stupid?
I'll be the first to admit that the system needed a solution to the application spamming problem. But aside from cranking up the costs beyond 10 or 20 programs, signaling is probably the 2nd stupidest way to manage it.
It has created the scenario where programs can entirely eliminate non signaling applicants. That saves a tremendous amount of time. I agree with @randomhemoncpd that some applicants are likely to be harmed with this. Also there is risk with moderately competitive programs in my opinion (similar to less competitive applicants being at a disadvantage)Would you go so far as to call it stupid?
I'll be the first to admit that the system needed a solution to the application spamming problem. But aside from cranking up the costs beyond 10 or 20 programs, signaling is probably the 2nd stupidest way to manage it.
100000%It has created the scenario where programs can entirely eliminate non signaling applicants. That saves a tremendous amount of time. I agree with @randomhemoncpd that some applicants are likely to be harmed with this. Also there is risk with moderately competitive programs in my opinion (similar to less competitive applicants being at a disadvantage)
The thing I hate is the two tiered program — getting a silver signal is hard to interpret (i.e. we like you but no better than 6th). This tips the applicant’s hand slightly (whereas this information would have been strictly confidential before) and I think has zero benefit to the applicant or program.Would you go so far as to call it stupid?
I'll be the first to admit that the system needed a solution to the application spamming problem. But aside from cranking up the costs beyond 10 or 20 programs, signaling is probably the 2nd stupidest way to manage it.
Kind of what I figured. Definitely puts more power in the programs hand, which is antithetical (IMO) to the whole idea of the Match, which used to put more power in the hands of the applicants, who are already very much at a disadvantage.100000%
The thing I hate is the two tiered program — getting a silver signal is hard to interpret (i.e. we like you but no better than 6th). This tips the applicant’s hand slightly (whereas this information would have been strictly confidential before) and I think has zero benefit to the applicant or program.
The absolute top tier programs and fellows always get what they want, and smaller regional programs will probably always match some internal candidates that they really like, but of course this leaves out a wide swath of programs in the middle. At the end of the day for competitive fields, it's a zero sum game of musical chairs and unfortunately some will be left out. Now if we're seeing programs not filling *and* an unmatched rate that is going up (it was 22% IIRC last year), then yes, the process would be the problem.Kind of what I figured. Definitely puts more power in the programs hand, which is antithetical (IMO) to the whole idea of the Match, which used to put more power in the hands of the applicants, who are already very much at a disadvantage.
I'm not an economist or statistician, nor am I a PD or applicant at this point. But I think a more fair system would be one in which applicants can only apply to a certain number of programs at a time (20, 30, whatever) and programs have to keep their active applicant list to some multiple of available spots (5x, 10x, 20x, whatever). At certain timepoints in the season, programs have to either offer interviews or reject applicants so they know where they stand. Then applicants having < some number (10, 15, whatever) interview invites can apply to some additional number of programs (5, 10, whatever). Lather, rinse, repeat, etc, etc. Probably not that much extra work for programs, would require a little more work on the part of applicants. Most of the work would be on the ERAS backend.
This might be a terrible idea. But it's probably not any worse than this mystical "signaling" system than neither applications, nor programs, seem to understand.
This is definitely what I was alluding to above. Top programs and top applicants will always be fine. You just don’t want a mismatch to occur whereby applicants and programs that otherwise would’ve matched with each other (sounds weird? ) are not because of some unique aspect of the new systemThe absolute top tier programs and fellows always get what they want, and smaller regional programs will probably always match some internal candidates that they really like, but of course this leaves out a wide swath of programs in the middle. At the end of the day for competitive fields, it's a zero sum game of musical chairs and unfortunately some will be left out. Now if we're seeing programs not filling *and* an unmatched rate that is going up (it was 22% IIRC last year), then yes, the process would be the problem.
It's not that a silver means a program is necessarily 6th on our list. Personally I used golds to try and lock in interviews places I was a good competitive and "fit" match on paper. That was a different list than my top choices. Which is why tiered signaling is stupid, because you have to try and discern strategy.100000%
The thing I hate is the two tiered program — getting a silver signal is hard to interpret (i.e. we like you but no better than 6th). This tips the applicant’s hand slightly (whereas this information would have been strictly confidential before) and I think has zero benefit to the applicant or program.
It's not that a silver means a program is necessarily 6th on our list. Personally I used golds to try and lock in interviews places I was a good competitive and "fit" match on paper. That was a different list than my top choices. Which is why tiered signaling is stupid, because you have to try and discern strategy.
Depends on geo preference;Asking for help understanding, please don't burn me.
I'm someone who has recently gotten into myeloid disease AML/MDS and cellular therapy. I work with an MD/PhD, but whenever I ask them about programs, they admit that they never really had to worry about shopping around since they short tracked. With interviews too - they say they don't really know anyone at the institutions I've been invited to interview. Outside of the general advice, I'd really like to ask what programs (in your opinion) would have the resources and faculty to support someone with my research interest (AML/MDS, cellular therapy in basic/translational science as an MD only applicant).
I get the assumption though - having received a second wave interview invite at a program, I assume I'm a backup to their preferred options when that might not be the case!Thanks for the clarification -- and yes, it adds an unnecessary layer as now programs are all trying to guess the intent of applicants with signals (and clearly we don't always get it right as you point out).
Thanks so much for the help. Geo preference would really be East coast (VA to MA) and Midwest (Chicago, StL) and willing to go to West Coast for strong programs. Out of the above I will be interviewing so far at DFCI, Cornell, Fred Hutch, NW, and UNC. Applied to all those programs except for Cleveland Clinic. If you have any insight into the NIH program that would be great too as I will also interview with them - just nervous about funding given the current admin. Also Columbia.Depends on geo preference;
Generally speaking however the below meet your requirements as will others;
DFCI
Upenn
Cornell
MSKCC
Fred Hutch
MDACC
UChicago
Northwestern
Possibly Cleveland Clinic
UNC
U Colorado (though unsure of their cart translational/clinical expertise)
Vanderbilt
Mayo
if you provide a geographic preference I can narrow the list
NIH is great though maybe not quite the same tier as dfci/mskcc. You will not get great clinical training there though. So I would only entertain that highly if you have no interest in a clinical career.Thanks so much for the help. Geo preference would really be East coast (VA to MA) and Midwest (Chicago, StL) and willing to go to West Coast for strong programs. Out of the above I will be interviewing so far at DFCI, Cornell, Fred Hutch, NW, and UNC. Applied to all those programs except for Cleveland Clinic. If you have any insight into the NIH program that would be great too as I will also interview with them - just nervous about funding given the current admin. Also Columbia.
I recognize that these are all excellent programs, so I don't want to come off as yucky, but I know that some programs are stronger in certain areas (solid vs liquid, clinical vs wet...) and I can't really discern that by the information online.
The issue with the NIH program has historically been that it is extremely research focused with the clinical training/care being largely secondary. So it's a great place to become a zebra rancher, but not a great place to learn bread and butter oncology, even just bread and butter AML.Thanks so much for the help. Geo preference would really be East coast (VA to MA) and Midwest (Chicago, StL) and willing to go to West Coast for strong programs. Out of the above I will be interviewing so far at DFCI, Cornell, Fred Hutch, NW, and UNC. Applied to all those programs except for Cleveland Clinic. If you have any insight into the NIH program that would be great too as I will also interview with them - just nervous about funding given the current admin. Also Columbia.
I recognize that these are all excellent programs, so I don't want to come off as yucky, but I know that some programs are stronger in certain areas (solid vs liquid, clinical vs wet...) and I can't really discern that by the information online.
And of course agree with the aboveThe issue with the NIH program has historically been that it is extremely research focused with the clinical training/care being largely secondary. So it's a great place to become a zebra rancher, but not a great place to learn bread and butter oncology, even just bread and butter AML.
ETA: Apparently @whoknows2012 and I were typing at the same time.
I'm not sure I'd go that far.Given your options the only program worth going to the west coast for would be Fred hutch.
I was wondering why Roswell Park doesn’t seem to be highly regarded here. I don’t see many US MDs on their roster, and I’ve heard bits about fellows struggling with quality of life. Do you feel it prepares people better clinically, or more for academics or either at this rate? Why are they mainly recruiting IMGs?I'm not sure I'd go that far.
Stanford is at least as good on the research side. Utah (not "West Coast" per se but West) is arguably stronger than Colorado for heme mal. And CoH, despite having an odd sort of quasi-academic setup and an unclear (to me at least) academic affiliation, has a very robust BMT/Cellular therapy program.
There are plenty of other mid-tier West Coast programs that would be more than adequate as well.
1 word...BuffaloI was wondering why Roswell Park doesn’t seem to be highly regarded here. I don’t see many US MDs on their roster, and I’ve heard bits about fellows struggling with quality of life. Do you feel it prepares people better clinically, or more for academics or either at this rate? Why are they mainly recruiting IMGs?
Wait I am lost, is the medical system bad or is it the location? I feel like there are decent medical systems in less than desirable locations. Mayo comes to mind......1 word...Buffalo
Another question for the PDs. Now with signaling being a thing, do letters of interest have any value (unsure if they ever had value)? Or are they annoying and applicants should just let the system do its thing? I had GI friends from last year who swear they are helpful...
I was wondering why Roswell Park doesn’t seem to be highly regarded here. I don’t see many US MDs on their roster, and I’ve heard bits about fellows struggling with quality of life. Do you feel it prepares people better clinically, or more for academics or either at this rate? Why are they mainly recruiting IMGs?
This was what I was getting at. It's a fine training program. Buffalo is Buffalo though.They have excellent alumni and train people well for both. Buffalo is a hard sell.
It’s 99% location.I was wondering why Roswell Park doesn’t seem to be highly regarded here. I don’t see many US MDs on their roster, and I’ve heard bits about fellows struggling with quality of life. Do you feel it prepares people better clinically, or more for academics or either at this rate? Why are they mainly recruiting IMGs?
I'm not sure I'd go that far.
Stanford is at least as good on the research side. Utah (not "West Coast" per se but West) is arguably stronger than Colorado for heme mal. And CoH, despite having an odd sort of quasi-academic setup and an unclear (to me at least) academic affiliation, has a very robust BMT/Cellular therapy program.
There are plenty of other mid-tier West Coast programs that would be more than adequate as well.
Agree with aboveYeah I agree, and there are stronger disease groups in certain areas at certain places. My personal bias is: leukemia, Fred Hutch; lymphoma, Stanford; myeloma, UCSF; and transplant, CoH.
I matched at my program from their second wave of invites and was later invited to stay on as faculty 🤷🏼♂️I get the assumption though - having received a second wave interview invite at a program, I assume I'm a backup to their preferred options when that might not be the case!
During my time, some programs didn’t send rejection letters. If you didn’t get an invitation, that was generally understood to mean you were not selected.Are programs interviewing significantly less applicants this year? It seems like most programs have sent out invites. Just wondering if there is going to be another wave of interviews or if it’s all done for the year. I still haven’t been outright rejected from some programs but not sure if I should be optimistic or consider my chances over and expect a letter sometime close to the cycle ending.
Interesting, I've been told it's often unwanted spam. Do you look for it being sent to the PD, the coordinator, each person the applicant interviewed with, what's the expectation? I feel like if I was going to send one I'd send to the PD at most.Obviously send a thank you note. We notice when applicants don’t.
Short and sweet, to the PD alone. If you want to send a LOI of sorts (i.e. I'm ranking you #1) that's fine, but we certainly don't expect anything like that.Interesting, I've been told it's often unwanted spam. Do you look for it being sent to the PD, the coordinator, each person the applicant interviewed with, what's the expectation? I feel like if I was going to send one I'd send to the PD at most.
I would not mention this explicitly. You have very little to gain and it could make you come off as a complainer (please note I’m not saying you are that at all — just that you only have a few minutes to make your pitch and first impressions matter).Question: if we're primarily interested in onc (little interest in benign heme, not a lot of experience with malignant heme) is that ok to say/is there a good way to say that in interviews?
This is most heme/onc applicants but I wouldn’t announce it right now. Just tell everyone how you love academia, passionate about all of heme/onc, then do your own thing once you’re in.Question: if we're primarily interested in onc (little interest in benign heme, not a lot of experience with malignant heme) is that ok to say/is there a good way to say that in interviews?