Hematology/Oncology 2024-2025 Application Cycle

Started by Phoenix628
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Phoenix628

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Hello all! I haven't been on SDN in quite a long time but have heard from a friend that the spreadsheet was super useful to them last year when applying heme/onc. Does someone tech-savvy feel up to the task of creating a spreadsheet for those of us applying this year? 🙂
 
Good luck everyone! I think this year it might be worth encouraging discussion on the open forum as much as possible.

I took a look at the spreadsheet from last year just now (cause I haven't really touched that in a long time mainly because I have a life that I want to live and a lot of better things to do) but it really looks like a lot of "the blind leading the blind and yelling at each other"

Take for example, a great engagement from the "tier list" (which is all kinds of wonky in and of itself but I won't get into that right now) of people debating the merits of Hopkins' program and whether or not single boarding is a requirement there. It's a bunch of people arguing 'this and that' about whether the Hopkins culture discourages double boarding and whether or not that's just as bad as forcing people to single board. It's kinda hilarious honestly.

Thing is, I don't think anyone on that thread even knows really what they're talking about. I don't think they even know what the pros and cons of double boarding are (which, admittedly, is something I didn't know until I started looking for jobs). If this were posted on the general thread I would've chimed in and said something along the lines of "it's a national ACGME requirement for trainees to do 1 year of clinical training to be eligible to single board and 1.5 years to be eligible to double board, (which is one reason why heme/onc programs historically used to be two years long), but some folks who absolutely know that they want to go into research would prefer to take that 6 months and pump out some more research or participate in national workshops to further their goals. I don't think anyone's 'forced' to do that beyond peer pressure but even that can be remedied if you change your mind third year and choose to spend your last half of the year doing as many clinics as possible. Double boarding is something that private practices value because board certification is a requirement for medicare/insurance credentialing and reimbursement, so most private practices prefer you to be double boarded if you're on their partnership track because they can optimize their billing that way. That said it's not a hard and fast requirement as there are plenty of private practitioners who are single boarded, and it's not like no one's going to hire you if you're only single boarded. Just choose the onc board if you're going to choose a single boarded pathway and that should leave all avenues open."

Tricky thing with anonymous responses is that even though it encourages engagement, you have no idea who's responding nor do you know how credible the response is. And most of the people who -do- know what they're talking about don't care enough to are too busy to post on the spreadsheet

EDIT: tl;dr, yeah please feel free to start a spreadsheet someone, but if you have any serious questions that need answering, you should just post to the thread.
 
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MifflinDunder said:
I was on it last year. Someone posted about the new programs that opened and looking for fellows and it kept getting deleted.

That spreadsheet is NOT healthy. It's 90% high-achieving MDs and IMGs crying about why they didn't get the first-wave invites from MSK and NIH.
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That’s true. I’m actually going through the spreadsheet and I feel I can not gauge which are my realistic choices to apply to.
 
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Any advice on researching programs while applying outside of just window shopping the websites? Any way we can find which programs sub-specialize in a certain field, or are well known (i.e. multiple myeloma, head and neck cancer etc.). Any resources out there?
 
RSBNKCBY said:
Any advice on researching programs while applying outside of just window shopping the websites? Any way we can find which programs sub-specialize in a certain field, or are well known (i.e. multiple myeloma, head and neck cancer etc.). Any resources out there?
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Other than directly asking academic hem/oncs in the said subspecialty, which would be best, one way to get a sense of whether a program is a leading institution in terms of research and reputation is to search the recent annual ASCO, ASH, or major subspecialty conferences to find out the quantity and quality (oral presentations, first and corresponding authors, etc.) of work being published from the institution. Know that when an institution is said to be "strong" in a certain subspecialty, this reputation often hinges on one or a few renowned senior level KOLs who is/are the main driver of the research program in said institution, which can change drastically in short periods of time if they leave. More importantly, prominence in a subspecialty for an institution does not necessarily translate into great mentorship nor individual success for you during fellowship. Of course, this is probably only relevant for pursuing academic careers with sub-specialization.
 
I have a somewhat complex question re: letters. One program states, "Three letters of recommendation: one letter of reference from the program director of the residency program in which the applicant has most recently served; and two letters of reference from members of the medical staff of the hospital affiliated with the sponsoring institution of that residency program"

The hospital my program is at does not have a Heme/Onc dept so we rotate at the other local hospital, but those oncologists still have privileges at ours. Is it ok to get them to write letters as "members of the medical staff of the hospital affiliated with the sponsoring institution of that residency program" even though it's not the same hospital?
 
Also, I see that some programs *require* 4 letters. Does anyone have a complete list/how to know which ones do besides searching every single program's website? Or is it ok to just send 4 to every program?
 
mtc2018 said:
I have a somewhat complex question re: letters. One program states, "Three letters of recommendation: one letter of reference from the program director of the residency program in which the applicant has most recently served; and two letters of reference from members of the medical staff of the hospital affiliated with the sponsoring institution of that residency program"

The hospital my program is at does not have a Heme/Onc dept so we rotate at the other local hospital, but those oncologists still have privileges at ours. Is it ok to get them to write letters as "members of the medical staff of the hospital affiliated with the sponsoring institution of that residency program" even though it's not the same hospital?
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Those physicians are members of the medical staff of the sponsoring institution. You're overthinking this. At one point in my career, I was a member of the medical staff of all but 3 of the hospitals in my metro area (the VA, Kaiser and one tiny community hospital part of a system that I had privileges at 2 of their major hospitals...this is out of 13 hospitals in the area). Any trainee at any of those hospitals (only 4 of them actually had trainees, but that's neither here nor there) could have asked me for a LOR and been within the rules as outlined.
 
mtc2018 said:
Also, I see that some programs *require* 4 letters. Does anyone have a complete list/how to know which ones do besides searching every single program's website? Or is it ok to just send 4 to every program?
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Again...overthinking. If they don't explicitly state "no more than 3 letters" send 4 if they're all great.
 
if you are applying to community programs, is it bad idea to write about sub-specializing in Breast cancer in your personal statement?
 
orthomyxostudent said:
if you are applying to community programs, is it bad idea to write about sub-specializing in Breast cancer in your personal statement?
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No, but you'll have to make a convincing case for why you're interested in breast. That said, there's such a demand for breast oncologists right now that the bar is low for convincing people (it's like convincing people that you want to be a PCP, folks come in wanting to believe you because there's such a demand for PCPs).

Edit: Sorry I misread this question, and read it as "if you're applying -FROM- a community program" instead of "applying -TO-". For breast, this probably isn't bad, since most of your general onc panel is going to be breast anyway. But if you're interested in something specific, like EGFR mutated lung cancer or sarcoma, then a community program probably won't have the resources or patient population to support you in this endeavor. Just be honest in your desires. Remember, it's not just programs weeding you out, you should be weeding programs out too that may not be able to support your aspirations. The match goes two ways.
 
gutonc said:
Those physicians are members of the medical staff of the sponsoring institution. You're overthinking this. At one point in my career, I was a member of the medical staff of all but 3 of the hospitals in my metro area (the VA, Kaiser and one tiny community hospital part of a system that I had privileges at 2 of their major hospitals...this is out of 13 hospitals in the area). Any trainee at any of those hospitals (only 4 of them actually had trainees, but that's neither here nor there) could have asked me for a LOR and been within the rules as outlined.
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ok awesome. I figured I was overthinking, but this is so high stakes I wanted to make sure I didn't screw up a whole LoR!
 
If you're very strong at a top 30 IM program, you only need to apply to 20-30 programs.

If you're at a weaker IM program but US grad, probably 50-60 programs.

Things are sadly more competitive now, and if you're DO/FMG at a community program, aim for near 100 if not more.

Don't just blindly apply everywhere, you should know where you are, and ask your program mentors and PD for guidance on the approximate number, erring on the higher side.
 
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fightthatebola said:
If you're very strong at a top 30 IM program, you only need to apply to 20-30 programs.

If you're at a weaker IM program but US grad, probably 50-60 programs.

Things are sadly more competitive now, and if you're DO/FMG at a community program, aim for near 100 if not more.

Don't just blindly apply everywhere, you should know where you are, and ask your program mentors and PD for guidance on the approximate number, erring on the higher side.
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What are usually the sweet spot for interviews for IMG's?
 
fightthatebola said:
If you're very strong at a top 30 IM program, you only need to apply to 20-30 programs.

If you're at a weaker IM program but US grad, probably 50-60 programs.

Things are sadly more competitive now, and if you're DO/FMG at a community program, aim for near 100 if not more.

Don't just blindly apply everywhere, you should know where you are, and ask your program mentors and PD for guidance on the approximate number, erring on the higher side.
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For DO/FMG, can you elaborate on that point? Have you heard of any success stories for DO/FMG?
 
Sorry unrelated question to the current chat but I came across the fellowship for City of Hope and I had never previously heard of this program. Does anyone have thoughts/know someone who trained there?
 
Phoenix628 said:
Sorry unrelated question to the current chat but I came across the fellowship for City of Hope and I had never previously heard of this program. Does anyone have thoughts/know someone who trained there?
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Perfectly good opportunity. Referral center. Kind of a weird hybrid setting. Lots of zebras and 5th line 2nd opinions.
 
Phoenix628 said:
Sorry unrelated question to the current chat but I came across the fellowship for City of Hope and I had never previously heard of this program. Does anyone have thoughts/know someone who trained there?
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Agreed with Gutonc. COH is an NCCN center and has a very strong reputation in SoCal. They pull a huge referral base from Kaiser.

The reason you haven't heard of them before is because they used to be tied to Harbor UCLA. Harbor UCLA fellows would (and still do) rotate through COH and could choose a clinical care/Harbor UCLA based track or a research/COH based track. Recently however, they decided that they wanted to formally branch off and start their own program. They just opened a few years back but their reputation, especially in the region, has been firmly established for many decades (similarly to when UT Austin started their med school a few years back, it was instantly popular because UT Austin was just so well established to begin with).
 
Awkward question: I applied several years ago very narrowly (yeah dumb), didn't match, took a break, And am now back at it. AMG from a solid med school, reputable IM program but had to expand 6 mo. I have an updated letter from the CMO of my hospital, And I have the option of substituting a letter from a hem-onc I work with now versus sticking with a letter from a research "mentor" (I use quotes because they were a not...great mentor. I can only assume they write ho-hum letters as well. All of my research is with their name as last author or whatever.

I have little interest in research and am focusing my efforts on community and hybrid academic/community programs. Am I better off with a new letter from a hem/onc that knows me but I did no research with, or sticking with the old letter to cover the research base

Follow-up question: Due to my previous geographic bend, I am in a bit of a desert with regards to viable options. The closest program is a national powerhouse that I have zero chance at. I'm trying to switch coasts to be close to wife's family. How do I make myself visible as a "Yes I am 100% willing to move 2700 miles to be part of your program and you should pick me over the boatload of New Englanders you have to chose from" candidate?
 
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@amakhosidlo From the sound of it, your stats are actually quite good, and as long as you're not too picky, you should have a decent chance.

Go with the stronger letter. No one, especially not the program leadership who screen through a bajillion apps a day are going to go through your application with such a fine tooth comb as to not interview you because you didn't get a letter from the last author on the random paper in your application. As a fellow, I used to go through these applications and I would barely sift through the publications section and speed read the letters before an interview because it was either that or not finish my 8 notes from clinic in the morning. Reviewers are humans too and your application is not the center of their universe as it may be the center of yours for a while

To answer your follow up question, you can make yourself a viable candidate by applying to the program. It sounds like a joke but it's not really. During the interview, they will expressly ask why you want to move, and you can explain your situation at that point. If it doesn't look like you're getting an interview in the first round, consider emailing the program director and explain why you're interested in their program for family reasons.
 
Is it better to use one strong onc letter and one strong letter from the IM Chair vs 2 onc letters- one strong one and one from outside program(mostly not as strong as Chair letter)
 
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If my LOR were uploaded today will programs be able to see them 7/17?

I know it says “All documents will take up to five (5) business days to process to ERAS from the date they are uploaded through EFDO Online Services, MIDUS, or the AAMC’s Letter of Recommendation Portal (LoRP).”
 
mtc2018 said:
If my LOR were uploaded today will programs be able to see them 7/17?

I know it says “All documents will take up to five (5) business days to process to ERAS from the date they are uploaded through EFDO Online Services, MIDUS, or the AAMC’s Letter of Recommendation Portal (LoRP).”
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No, until they are processed they won't be able to see them. Usually if the letters are green in ERAS then you're good to go.
 
mtc2018 said:
Ok thanks. Will the programs be able to see my application though without them being processed?
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Depends. Programs can see all apps that meet whatever criteria they set on their filters for screening. LORs uploaded is one of the criteria they can set, but I maintain that it's a stupid one since it's on of the very few things that applicants have almost no control over.

You're overthinking this though. If your app is complete, you've done all you can do. Programs constantly fiddle with their screening criteria as the season goes on, since they have no way of knowing, a priori, how many apps will meet any particular set of screening criteria.
 
One out of 4 letters are in process, so are the MSPE and MS transcript. Should I apply once all the letters are processed or apply before 9 AM on 7/17 regardless of the letters bring uploaded?
 
Just apply. There's no penalty for applying and having your app ready to view on Day 1. You can never know what things programs do/don't screen on and how often they re-review or edit and rerun their screens. Having whatever part of your app is complete available on day 1 is the best way to maximize your chances.

Don't try to read the tea leaves or chipmunk entrails and don't assume that whatever you read on the spreadsheet if someone makes one (shudder) or Reddit (double shudder) bears any resemblance to reality.
 
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@gutonc if one or more of the LOR is uploaded after 9am ET tmrw (but arrive sometimes tomorrow), should I email the program coordinators to make sure they are aware of that letter?
 
The vast majority of programs do not download apps for at least a week or 2, if not longer!. I think it’s overkill to email saying your letter came after 9am.
 
1) are most interviews virtual still?
2) are any second looks happening typically, esp in person?
3) for residency programs, do they count days taken off for interviews against vacation time or what?
 
mtc2018 said:
1) are most interviews virtual still?
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I hope not, but they probably are. If so, I'm sorry.
mtc2018 said:
2) are any second looks happening typically, esp in person?
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No clue. But a virtual 2nd look is dumber than a virtual interview.
mtc2018 said:
3) for residency programs, do they count days taken off for interviews against vacation time or what?
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Ask your PD. That's the only person's opinion that matters.
 
When should we start sending letter of interests to places where we haven't received any interview invites from? I was thinking 10/1?
 
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MifflinDunder said:
I was on it last year. Someone posted about the new programs that opened and looking for fellows and it kept getting deleted.

That spreadsheet is NOT healthy. It's 90% high-achieving MDs and IMGs crying about why they didn't get the first-wave invites from MSK and NIH.
Click to expand...
FYI we as PDs know all about the SDN spreadsheet and many of us have seen previous versions. In fact, it even was discussed at the PD retreat last year. Consensus opinion is that it is not particularly reflective of reality.
 
randomhemoncpd said:
We are officially recommended to do interviews virtually by ASCO / ASH. https://society.asco.org/sites/new-...-ASCO-ASH-Interview-Guidelines-2023-FINAL.pdf
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So…stupid….

Taking the COVID issue completely out of it, I think the money I spent on interview travel for both residency and fellowship was probably the best money I spent during my training. I can’t imagine committing to a hospital and city for 2-5 years without actually getting to see what it’s like there.

I’m almost 20 years out from my residency interviews and I can still tell you the good and bad things about the interview process at a dozen or more places.
 
gutonc said:
So…stupid….

Taking the COVID issue completely out of it, I think the money I spent on interview travel for both residency and fellowship was probably the best money I spent during my training. I can’t imagine committing to a hospital and city for 2-5 years without actually getting to see what it’s like there.

I’m almost 20 years out from my residency interviews and I can still tell you the good and bad things about the interview process at a dozen or more places.
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Frequent air travel, in this economy?
 
gutonc said:
So…stupid….

Taking the COVID issue completely out of it, I think the money I spent on interview travel for both residency and fellowship was probably the best money I spent during my training. I can’t imagine committing to a hospital and city for 2-5 years without actually getting to see what it’s like there.

I’m almost 20 years out from my residency interviews and I can still tell you the good and bad things about the interview process at a dozen or more places.
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There's definitely good and bad. Not seeing the city and hospital in person is obviously a gigantic minus. However, the financial impact of in-person interviews can be really rough for residents who aren't bankrolled by family, so I think it does help with equity and access.
 
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