Here we go again... seen circulating on FB

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teacher2md

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Most recent iteration of CRNA/MD comparison studies:

Here's the lay version:http://newswise.com/articles/study-...n-have-no-impact-on-anesthesia-patient-safety

And heres the paper: http://journals.lww.com/lww-medical...pe_of_Practice_Laws_and_Anesthesia.98905.aspx

What do you guys think about this? Of course, it was a retrospective study and the patients weren't randomized. Also, from what I can tell in the paper, they're still using the QZ modifier to determine supervision status.
 
The fact that only 8 complications are reported for every 10,000 operations is all I need to know. That is so far off I don't even know what to say. And we haven't even gotten into pain control/patient satisfaction scores, time to hospital/pacu discharge, or long-term morbidity and mortality.
 
"the study also concluded that while state SOP restrictions and physician supervision do not increase anesthesia safety, they do reduce patient access to quality care and increase costs of healthcare services."

wtf where does it say this anywhere in the study?
nurses just be making things up
 
"the study also concluded that while state SOP restrictions and physician supervision do not increase anesthesia safety, they do reduce patient access to quality care and increase costs of healthcare services."

wtf where does it say this anywhere in the study?
nurses just be making things up

It's what they do.
 
I was friends on Facebook with some ICU RNs and PACU RNs. Some of them love to post messages about how "MDs know nothing..." I've deleted them, too.
 
Lol at the news article stating that the paper was published by an "independent" journal. The journal itself might be independent, but the paper itself says it was funded by the AANA and thanks Mr. Quintana himself. There is nothing "independent" about it.

More than that, I would encourage all medical students and residents to actually read these hack jobs so that you can be prepared to rebut their claims.

Past the obvious conflict of interest and retrospective design, as well as the ridiculously low complication rate pointed above, did you know...?

The patient population was 75% outpatient and the most common inpatient procedure was a vaginal delivery? The authors cherry-picked a population where they would be least likely to find a difference.

They only control for 6 comorbidities: "arrhythmias," aortic stenosis, HTN, DM, COPD, and cancer. Because you know how hard it is to keep alive those patients with a little HTN, mild AS, and paroxysmal AF...

They control for complexity by using Base Units, which I guess they are using as a surrogate for ASA status?

Just terrible, on so many levels...
 
Thing is that midlevels don't care about how good the study actually is. All they look for is the little quotes like "nurses are just as good or even better than doctors" even if the study doesn't support that conclusion. I've seen them post a link to a nps are great study and claim that it says that nurses are better than doctors and be like "it's the cochrane review, it's the gold standard". First of all, no it's not it's just a meta-analysis. You read the study and it says that no meaningful conclusions can be obtained from the available low quality data so it's the opposite of what they claim. They don't care though.

These people are unteachable. It is futile to argue about scientific evidence against people who are not trained to evaluate it. Their thought process doesn't go beyond "uh this is a science based journal with scientific data and I thought you believe in evidence based medicine? btw I practice advanced care nursing not medicine"

Man there was one time when I critically evaluated the 6 month asthma/htn study done by mundinger and some np posted the study as a reply and said "hey your own journal disagrees with you nurses are just as good if not better at primary care this is your medical journal". I was like dude...I just tore that apart though?

You can't drown out stupid catchphrases and garbage reasoning with well thought out responses. Whoever shouts the loudest gets their message out. It's all about pandering to the lowest common denominator these days.
 
From the article:

"Given that the doctors don’t have any evidence of their own to support their arguments, their actions are really quite reckless and selfishly put our nation’s veterans in a most precarious position,” said Quintana.

So my question to you, teacher2md, is: Why are you being so reckless with our vetarans' health?
 
Policy / Management
APRIL 15, 2016
QZ Modifier Found Not Representative of CRNA-Only Care


In stark contrast to a 2010 investigation suggesting that nurse anesthetists frequently provide care unsupervised by physician anesthesiologists, researchers at the University of Texas Medical Branch and the American Society of Anesthesiology’s (ASA) Department of Health Policy have found that the Medicare billing code at the center of that trial—modifier QZ—does not seem to be a valid surrogate for care in which no anesthesiologist is present. These findings, the investigators concluded, call into question the validity of prior research.

“The Dulisse and Cromwell study [Health Aff 2010;29:1469-1475] started with a false premise,” said Amr Abouleish, MD, MBA, professor of anesthesiology at the University of Texas Medical Branch in Galveston. “They assumed that the QZ modifier only represents CRNAs working without an anesthesiologist—and we all know that is wrong.”

Coding Options

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Indeed, as Dr. Abouleish reported, nurse anesthetists have two coding options—modifiers QX and QZ—when billing for care of Medicare patients. Modifier QX is used when a physician anesthesiologist provides medical direction, a high level of care. Modifier QZ, in contrast, is used when care is provided in several different ways, including when:

  • a nurse is supervised by a physician anesthesiologist or another physician;
  • a nurse works without supervision; or
  • a physician anesthesiologist provides high-level care with limited documentation.
To test the hypothesis that modifier QZ represents solo nurse anesthetist care, the investigators examined claims from 538 hospitals where every anesthesia claim used the QZ modifier. Yet despite the fact that all 9,071 anesthesia claims used only the modifier, physician anesthesiologists were affiliated with 47.5% of these hospitals.

“Our premise,” Dr. Abouleish said in an interview with Anesthesiology News, “is that if there’s an anesthesiologist on staff for those facilities, he or she is going to be providing anesthesia care for at least some Medicare cases. It would not be logical for these hospitals to have anesthesiologists on staff and not provide any patient care.”

As Dr. Abouleish explained, nurse anesthetists and physician anesthesiologists working at the same institution typically have a formal working relationship that may include collaboration, consultation, rescue from critical events or supervision.

“I want to make it clear that I strongly appreciate nurse anesthetists working in the anesthesia care team model,” he said. “I think they’re great partners; we work great as a team.”

The problem, Dr. Abouleish explained, lies with Medicare billing policies, which hinder physician anesthesiologists from billing when supervising nurse anesthetists. “The challenge is that if you employ and supervise nurse anesthetists, the nurse anesthetist is going to bill out the QZ modifier and get 100% payment allowed from Medicare. If the physician anesthesiologist bills out the supervision code, all of a sudden Medicare is paying more than 100% of allowable. That’s a quandary, because these groups don’t want Medicare to pay them for more than the 100% allowable for a service,” Dr. Abouleish said.

Hospital Staffing Issues

The issue becomes even more acute when the Dulisse and Cromwell study, along with a 2003 trial that was built around the same premise (AANA J2003;71:109-116), are cited as evidence that nurse anesthetist stand-alone care is equivalent to care involving a physician anesthesiologist. As such, these trials are frequently used to influence hospital staffing policies. “The upshot of this is that we really shouldn’t be using Dulisse and Cromwell as the foundation of policy since the study results are based on a false premise,” he said.

Using the 2003 and 2010 trials in this way may ultimately diminish patient care by allowing nurse anesthetists to administer anesthesia without the supervision of physician anesthesiologists. “If you ask me what’s the best way to provide care, I say it’s demand matching,” Dr. Abouleish noted. “And if that means I have to be in the room 100% of the time, then I have to be in the room 100% of the time. And if I don’t have to be there 100% of the time, I’ll work with my team to do that, too.”

Dr. Abouleish was quick to disclose that the current trial was funded by the ASA. “Nobody is claiming that ours is the best study,” he said. “We just wanted to answer a simple question. This analysis is our way of showing that the billing modifier QZ is invalid as a surrogate for nurse anesthetist stand-alone practice. Therefore, it’s impossible to use modifier QZ to compare patient outcomes from nurse anesthesia–alone care to physician anesthesiologist care.”

—Michael Vlessides
 

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You can't drown out stupid catchphrases and garbage reasoning with well thought out responses. Whoever shouts the loudest gets their message out. It's all about pandering to the lowest common denominator these days.
“Never argue with an idiot. They will only bring you down to their level and beat you with experience.” (George Carlin)
 
Last edited by a moderator:
Lol at the news article stating that the paper was published by an "independent" journal. The journal itself might be independent, but the paper itself says it was funded by the AANA and thanks Mr. Quintana himself. There is nothing "independent" about it.

More than that, I would encourage all medical students and residents to actually read these hack jobs so that you can be prepared to rebut their claims.

Past the obvious conflict of interest and retrospective design, as well as the ridiculously low complication rate pointed above, did you know...?

The patient population was 75% outpatient and the most common inpatient procedure was a vaginal delivery? The authors cherry-picked a population where they would be least likely to find a difference.

They only control for 6 comorbidities: "arrhythmias," aortic stenosis, HTN, DM, COPD, and cancer. Because you know how hard it is to keep alive those patients with a little HTN, mild AS, and paroxysmal AF...

They control for complexity by using Base Units, which I guess they are using as a surrogate for ASA status?

Just terrible, on so many levels...


I saw an article yesterday talking about how cRNA independence was cheaper. Numbers looked convincing. Then I read the fine print, they put an all physician practice at a price tag of $350,000/physician and an all cRNA at $170,000/nurse. Seems legit, but then you think "Wait." That is the going rate for a clock-punching cRNA. If you want overnight coverage, holiday coverage, and weekend coverage, then proceed to throw in state licensing fees and malpractice they would now need to carry, you are pretty much getting close to the cost of a physician. It actually would be about the same. Funny how misleading these are in very, very tricky ways.
 
I saw an article yesterday talking about how cRNA independence was cheaper. Numbers looked convincing. Then I read the fine print, they put an all physician practice at a price tag of $350,000/physician and an all cRNA at $170,000/nurse. Seems legit, but then you think "Wait." That is the going rate for a clock-punching cRNA. If you want overnight coverage, holiday coverage, and weekend coverage, then proceed to throw in state licensing fees and malpractice they would now need to carry, you are pretty much getting close to the cost of a physician. It actually would be about the same. Funny how misleading these are in very, very tricky ways.
Of course it's cheaper. Not by 50%, but maybe by 25-30%. And, if you add up 25% here and there, it gets to big numbers that make bean counters dizzy about all the year-end bonuses they can give themselves.

And the patients will still pay the same, or more.
 
From the article:

"Given that the doctors don’t have any evidence of their own to support their arguments, their actions are really quite reckless and selfishly put our nation’s veterans in a most precarious position,” said Quintana.

So my question to you, teacher2md, is: Why are you being so reckless with our vetarans' health?

The fact that he can say that with a straight face is proof that they don't deserve to work independently. It's like 1984 in here.

Freedom is Slavery, Ignorance is Strength, Nurses is Doctors
 
Of course it's cheaper. Not by 50%, but maybe by 25-30%. And, if you add up 25% here and there, it gets to big numbers that make bean counters dizzy about all the year-end bonuses they can give themselves.

And the patients will still pay the same, or more.

At places where they practice independently, this does not appear to be the case.

Go to Iowa and do 3 weeks on and 1 week off with many days "just a few cases" and get $280,000. 13 weeks vacay. Lots of new grads aren't getting that. I didn't get that my first year out. Shoot- academic programs are almost behind that.

http://gaswork.com/mobile/post/view/196499/
 
At places where they practice independently, this does not appear to be the case.

Go to Iowa and do 3 weeks on and 1 week off with many days "just a few cases" and get $280,000. 13 weeks vacay. Lots of new grads aren't getting that. I didn't get that my first year out. Shoot- academic programs are almost behind that.

http://gaswork.com/mobile/post/view/196499/
damn, 13 weeks?
 
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