Here's the stats that shows dramatic drop in application

[BMBiology]

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Lets look at a well-established school (USC). Class size is 185.

According to link #1: in 2011, 7.6 applied to 1 enrolled ratio. Since the class size is 185, therefore 1406 applied.

According to link #2: in 2012, 1065 applied

Therefore, a drop of 341 applied (25%) in just one year! I bet 2013 will show a even more dramatic drop in application.

http://www.aacp.org/resources/stude...s/admissionrequirements/Documents/Table 8.pdf

http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/programs/pharmd/pharmdprogram/admission/class-profile/

 

[BMBiology]

I remember USC only had to admit about 200 students to get a class of 185. They admitted 282 in 2012 just to get the same class size! The students with options are ditching pharmacy. Makes you wonder about those who are still applying.

 

[BMBiology]

Just to be fair, lets take a look at one of the newer schools. I had posted this in another thread:

http://www.husson.edu/assets/husson-admissions-pharmacy-admissionsdata-2013-16.docx

c/o 2014 when compared to c/o 2016:

(1) Total applicant pool: 645 to 423 (almost a 33% drop in applicants)
(2) Bachelor degree or higher: 42% to 10%
(3) PCAT score: 52% to 34% (someone with a 6% even got accepted)
(4) GPA: 3.47 to 3.3 (If this is the GPA of those who got admitted then expect the class GPA to be even lower)

Only 10% have a bachelor degree? Did they do their pre-reqs at a community college or 4 year university?

Guess who is ultimately paying for the saturation and low admissions standards? The new grads who worked hard in undergrad and pharmacy school and did everything they were supposed to do.

 

[Ackj]

Hard to say what this really means though. Could mean less out of state students because they decided on a local school (because let's face it, there is one every 100 miles or less). Could have chosen a less expensive program. Could have read this forum and realized what would be on their plate 4 years down the line, then changed plans.

Now if you tell me nationwide applications are going down, that would be a different story altogether, but I highly doubt it.

 

[trailerpark]

They're thinking about opening up another pharmacy school in NY in Binghamton (we don't need anymore in NY, I didn't want D'Youville or even St John Fischer!) and no where in the article, where they talk about reason for doing so, do they mention a need for more pharmacists! Shouldn't that be a number one reason for opening a new school!?

http://www.bupipedream.com/news/168...acy-grad-school-school-open-5-years-proposal/

And can someone please explain why D'Youville added a pharmacy school?

 

[BMBiology]

Hard to say what this really means though. Could mean less out of state students because they decided on a local school (because let's face it, there is one every 100 miles or less). Could have chosen a less expensive program. Could have read this forum and realized what would be on their plate 4 years down the line, then changed plans.

Now if you tell me nationwide applications are going down, that would be a different story altogether, but I highly doubt it.

I am talking about a 25% drop in just one year. Most of the people who applied to USC are from California anyways. In addition, public universities in California charge like 35 k a year so USC is pretty comparable.

 

[SoylentGreen]

Therefore, a drop of 341 applied (25%) in just one year! I bet 2013 will show a even more dramatic drop in application.

Inference: 341 people read your posts.

Presumably the ones still entering pharmacy school will tend to be the weaker students, since those who can do something else will tend to do it (I could have and would have if 2007 had been like 2013). I'm not looking forward to the caliber of colleagues whose messes we'll have to fix in 5 years or so.

 

[BMBiology]

Looks like USC needs to update its FAQ section.

Q: How many students are accepted each year?

A: The USC School of Pharmacy receives approximately 1,300-1,600 applications each year, and interviews 400 to 500 applicants. Approximately 185 students matriculate into the program.

1600 sounds about right a few years ago. Last year it was just above 1000.

 

[y0ssarian87]

It's hard to tell, though, what these numbers really mean when they come from different sources. If one source is only counting completed applications or applications that met minimum requirements while another source is counting partially completed applications, the data is meaningless.

I wish the historical data were available, explaining methodology. That's the only way we would have valuable information. If only admissions were more transparent...

 

[pharmasaur]

there are definitely less qualified students in pharmacy school now...comparing my P1 class to P3s-P4s....seriously my class is such a fail compared to them!! caliber of applicants have gone down and school has taken notice and keeps telling our class we're not stronger than previous yrs academically

 

[BMBiology]

Fair enough. USC releases a news report on every class. So here're the numbers and links

Class of 2013 ("nearly 1400 applications"): http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/28648/Pharmacy-School-Welcomes-Class-of-2013

Class of 2014 ("some 1300 applicants"): http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/27286/Pharmacy-s-Class-of-2014-Suits-Up/

Class of 2015 ("1179 applicants"): http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/news/welcome-class-of-2015.html

Class of 2016 ("nearly 1100 applicants"; actual number per website: 1065): http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/news/school-of-pharmacy-welcomes-the-class-of-2016.html

That's 4 years of data and it shows a downward trend in the number of applicants.

 

[BMBiology]

If I am a betting man (and I am), I would bet the class of 2017 would have < 1000 applicants. I am talking about USC here. They started the doctor in pharmacy program. I am not talking about some stand alone, for profit, new pharmacy school.

 

[y0ssarian87]

Fair enough. USC releases a news report on every class. So here're the numbers and links

Class of 2013 ("nearly 1400 applications"): http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/28648/Pharmacy-School-Welcomes-Class-of-2013

Class of 2014 ("some 1300 applicants"): http://news.usc.edu/#!/article/27286/Pharmacy-s-Class-of-2014-Suits-Up/

Class of 2015 ("1179 applicants"): http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/news/welcome-class-of-2015.html

Class of 2016 ("nearly 1100 applicants"; actual number per website: 1065): http://pharmacyschool.usc.edu/news/school-of-pharmacy-welcomes-the-class-of-2016.html

That's 4 years of data and it shows a downward trend in the number of applicants.

Very good, interesting information. The average entering class GPA doesn't change at all in each of these reports. It stays around a 3.6. If the average matriculating GPA doesn't change, does the decrease in number of applicants matter much? I would guess it would matter in soft skills like interviewing and personality, but it's difficult to tell.

I know several of the individuals who review the applications and make the admissions decisions for USC. I'll try to ask them about this trend; it's very interesting and very drastic. I doubt I'll get any good answers, but it would be nice to understand. Thanks for getting that data. It's quite a precipitous drop.

 

[BMBiology]

That is a fair point about GPA. I would like to see the class of 2017 profile.

 

[y0ssarian87]

That is a fair point about GPA. I would like to see the class of 2017 profile.

Me, too. I'm sure it won't be long till they provide that information.

Interestingly I found this from AACP:

PharmCAS applicants and applications. The Pharmacy College Application Service (PharmCAS) completed its ninth cycle this year with 103 participating institutions, up from 96 last year. In the 2011–12 admissions cycle, PharmCAS experienced a 0.3 percent decrease in the number of applicants and a 5.0 percent decrease in the number of applications submitted, with an average of 4.65 applications per applicant. That decrease was mainly due to applicants applying to fewer schools. The accompanying tables display additional data.

Promoting student diversity and access to pharmacy education, AACP continued the PharmCAS fee waiver program for financially disadvantaged applicants.

http://www.aacp.org/news/2012/Pages/CriticalIssue1.aspx

 

[y0ssarian87]

Me, too. I'm sure it won't be long till they provide that information.

Interestingly I found this from AACP:

http://www.aacp.org/news/2012/Pages/CriticalIssue1.aspx

And more from archive reports:

The AACP Board of Directors doubled the number of PharmCAS fee waivers for financially disadvantaged applicants applying for enrollment in order to promote student diversity and access to pharmacy education. In the 2010–11 admissions cycle, PharmCAS experienced a 0.69 percent increase in the number of applicants and a 1.27 percent decrease in the number of applications submitted with an average of 4.89 applications per applicant.

PharmCAS
LEARN
Ensuring that all AACP member in- stitutions have a rich applicant pool of talented students is a top priority for AACP and led to the establishment of the Pharmacy College Application Service (PharmCAS) in 2003. PharmCAS successfully completed its seventh cycle in April 2010 with 86 participating institutions.

PharmCAS Applicant Data
The AACP Board of Directors has continued the PharmCAS fee waiver program for financially disadvantaged applicants applying for enrollment in
order to promote student diversity and access to pharmacy education. In the 2009–10 admissions cycle, PharmCAS experienced a 10.9 percent increase in 4.48 percent to 108,396 from 103,747 in 2007–08. The consistent increase in pharmacy applications since 1999 reflects a higher ratio of applications per applicant, as well as a strong interest in the profession.

In the 2008–09 admissions cycle, PharmCAS experienced a 2.125 percent increase in the number of applicants and a 10.8 percent increase in the number of applications submitted with an average of 4.86 applications per applicant. The number of applications for all pharmacy schools in 2007–08 increased by 6.17 percent to 103,747 from 97,714 in 2006–07. The consis- tent increase in pharmacy applications since 1999 reflects a higher ratio of applications per applicant, as well as a strong interest in the profession.

Edit: Here's the link: http://www.aacp.org/news/2012/Pages/Archive.aspx

 

[BMBiology]

It seems like 2011-2012 cycle was first year there was a decrease.

In the previous years, I am not sure if the increase is due to an increase number of schools participating in the PharmCAS.

 

[y0ssarian87]

It seems like 2011-2012 cycle was first year there was a decrease

It should be made very clear, though, that these are PharmCAS applicant numbers. As schools were transitioning to using PharmCAS, it may have caused the increase in applicant number to be inflated. We don't know how many pharmacy school applicants there were in total. I don't know how how to tell how many applicants were due to schools switching to PharmCAS.

 

[confettiflyer]

I'm curious if there's a confounder that we're not thinking about, like a progressive cutting of outreach and recruitment activities as a result of budget retrenchment.

 

[y0ssarian87]

It seems like 2011-2012 cycle was first year there was a decrease.

In the previous years, I am not sure if the increase is due to an increase number of schools participating in the PharmCAS.

Yeah, I agree totally on this point.

 

[y0ssarian87]

I'm curious if there's a confounder that we're not thinking about, like a progressive cutting of outreach and recruitment activities as a result of budget retrenchment.

I'm sure there is some factor. Ultimately though, I think we're either stuck with self-reported school data or PharmCAS data. Neither of which gives a great picture of the true numbers.

 

[rxlea]

Our school does not use PharmCAS and it's seen a substantial drop in the number of applicants in the last few years. Whether that's resulted in the acceptance of students less capable, I'm not sure. My class seems to be pretty good as a whole.

I think people are just realizing that college degrees, in general, might not be the pie in the sky they were told about. Four years of hell to have 100K+ in student loans and decreasing job opportunities? People might just say no thanks.

The number of newer schools may have something to do with it also.... Spreading out the applicants over 129 schools versus 90 is pretty significant.

I'm sure there are other reasons.

I don't believe it's limited to pharmacy, though. I've seen programs in other fields essentially dissolve due to lack of interest and reduction in the number of tenure track faculty positions.

 

[BelowTheMean]

Inference: 341 people read your posts.

Presumably the ones still entering pharmacy school will tend to be the weaker students, since those who can do something else will tend to do it (I could have and would have if 2007 had been like 2013). I'm not looking forward to the caliber of colleagues whose messes we'll have to fix in 5 years or so.

My gpa in 2005 got me rejected to all california schools but competition back then was so difficult and there werent like a gazzilion schools. We all were honor students in college with no C's or at most 1 or 2 C's. I too wouldve done and made at least a DO school. Funny thing is all my friends who graduated recently had much lower gpas and overall less impressive activities/stats/resume than mine and they all got into at least DO/MD or dds program while i was competing hard and not making it for pharmacy school in cali...oh how times have changed.

 

[297point1]

The number of newer schools may have something to do with it also.... Spreading out the applicants over 129 schools versus 90 is pretty significant.

This. The number of applicants has been stable the last few years- they are just spread around more. And as the odds of being accepted to at least one program have gone up, all but the weakest applicants aren't compelled to apply to 8-10 programs each year like they once did.

 

[tootoo30]

The number of applicants dropped at my school also I don't think there were enough to even fill all the seats

 

[Rattlergirl53]

Our school does not use PharmCAS and it's seen a substantial drop in the number of applicants in the last few years. Whether that's resulted in the acceptance of students less capable, I'm not sure. My class seems to be pretty good as a whole.

I think people are just realizing that college degrees, in general, might not be the pie in the sky they were told about. Four years of hell to have 100K+ in student loans and decreasing job opportunities? People might just say no thanks.

The number of newer schools may have something to do with it also.... Spreading out the applicants over 129 schools versus 90 is pretty significant.

I'm sure there are other reasons.

I don't believe it's limited to pharmacy, though. I've seen programs in other fields essentially dissolve due to lack of interest and reduction in the number of tenure track faculty positions.

This. I have a cousin who was never interested in college. He became an electrician. Has been working since 19. No debt and is doing good for himself.

A lot of people are realizing college is a business and these schools just want money and don't care about you actually getting a job.

 

[297point1]

A lot of people are realizing college is a business and these schools just want money and don't care about you actually getting a job.

Do you really believe this? It is in everyone's best interest to have graduates enter the workforce as productive members of society. Remember: unemployed alumni don't make donations back to their alma mater. 😎

 

[KasHfg]

This. The number of applicants has been stable the last few years- they are just spread around more. And as the odds of being accepted to at least one program have gone up, all but the weakest applicants aren't compelled to apply to 8-10 programs each year like they once did.

Agree!

 

[KasHfg]

This. I have a cousin who was never interested in college. He became an electrician. Has been working since 19. No debt and is doing good for himself.

A lot of people are realizing college is a business and these schools just want money and don't care about you actually getting a job.

I believe that amount of college students/graduates is on the rise not decline... More and more people go to college, because they are realizing that the competition for jobs is getting stiffer, and you need all you can get to give you an edge.

 

[rxlea]

A lot of people are realizing college is a business and these schools just want money and don't care about you actually getting a job.

I don't think I'd go that far. Maybe that's true for places like University of Phoenix but not for a state university and certainly not for ivy leagues.

I just think people realize there are other options or they are happy in positions that don't need a college degree.

Of course, they could be listening to NPR when Diane Rehm interviews PhDs who are on welfare 😀

 

[sde780]

Class stats are definitely going downhill at my school

 

[VP_Pharm2004]

Hopefully, this thread and the following video & comments will help pre-pharmers realize the current trend in pharmacy..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pt7Wq7W9QQo