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I'm interested in hearing how the DO gas folks chose to rank programs considering the osteopathic match is before the allopathic match. Did you skip applying to the 11 DO gas residencies and gamble with the allo match? apply to both?

I'd also like to hear any info you might have on the osteopathic gas residencies (education, people, locations, etc.) Cheers!
 
If you do decide to apply for both matches and you match through the Osteopathic match, you will automatically be pulled from the Allopathic match. There are previous posts concerning matching the preliminary year through the DO match that are pretty informative. However, it is hard getting any feedback for the Osteopathic programs. Very few in this forum (if any) have rotated or interviewed there.
 
My concern is not matching. If someone has great grades and great board scores, I can understand why they wouldn't participate in the DO match. But I want to make sure I match to the career field.

So, if nobody wants to apply to DO gas residencies, they must be a pretty easy match, right?
 
I am sorry, but I don't know much about the level of competitiveness of the D.O. programs. the only one that I have heard about was Riverside and people said that it was generally competitive. In addition, since there are a very limited number of spots, I would imagine they would all be pretty competitive. If you just want to match and don't care where you end up, then apply for both. Sorry I can't be more informative, but if you are a fairly decent applicant you should have no trouble matching somewhere.
 
Even though the DO gas programs are not very well known, within the past three years they have gotten competitive. There's not many DO gas programs and gas has become quite popular in recent years so even small places like Kirksville have 80 applications for 2 or 3 spots.
 
Heeed! said:
I'm interested in hearing how the DO gas folks chose to rank programs considering the osteopathic match is before the allopathic match. Did you skip applying to the 11 DO gas residencies and gamble with the allo match? apply to both?

I'd also like to hear any info you might have on the osteopathic gas residencies (education, people, locations, etc.) Cheers!
Click to expand...

Heeed!, I am in the exact same boat as you about how to go about matching allopathic vs. osteopathic. My plan is to go through both matches right now, although at present I hope to match DO. If I interview at an allopathic program that I adore, then this plan might change.

I have rotated at two Osteopathic anesthesia programs thus far: Grandview Hospital in Dayton, OH and Doctors Hospital West in Columbus, OH. Both seem to be good programs, and each have certain strengths and weaknesses. For example, Grandview has a much higher case load (and chances for experience), while Doctors has a better didactic program. Also, I preferred the atmosphere at Doctors over Grandview, but that is purely a matter of personal preference. Next month, I'll be rotating up in Cleveland at South Pointe, so it'll be interesting to see how much I like it there.

The D.O. programs are very small, and most take only 1 or 2 per year at most. Some program directors claim that you will have ZERO chance of matching into their program unless you rotate with them, but I don't know how true that is. I won't be doing any rotations at allopathic programs either, so if I match that way...it will be sight unseen.

Hope this helps! 😎

Dr. S
 
I would not even consider an allopathic program with 1-2 residents per year. I was kinda leery of ones with 6-7 residents. That is my own opinion. I matched at a place with 15+ per class. Being a DO and applying for gas was pretty frustrating because I got NO advice from my school. So I shotgunned it and applied to maybe 50 programs. I got far more interviews than I could handle including "big ones" like JHU and Penn, also other solid programs like Kentucky, Vanderbilt and Baylor. My step II helped me tremendously because I pulled it up a bunch from Step I. Don't know how you will fare w/COMLEX only. I suspect it will shut a few doors for you, but if you apply widely you should be fine. this is assuming your record is decent otherwise. My hard stats were 200/241, top 40% of class, stellar LOR's from big name gas guys and P/HP/H mix on clinicals. EC's include television, golf, women and beer. Don't sell yourself short. Hope this helps.
 
I am not sure (so someone correct me if i am wrong), but i thought that the DO programs were difficult to match at. Although they are not high-caliber programs, there seems to be LOTSA DO's going for gas now-a-days... Therefore with the few spots that they offer, its seems tough to match at DO programs.
 
I imagine if you rotate at a couple of DO programs and do a little reading each day you'll get into one of them as long as you are amiable.

Many osteopathic programs are willing to downplay boards if you can prove yourself clinically and personally.

Zat iz zee DO way, no?
 
I don't know much about most of the AOA gas residencies except for the one here in Riverside, CA. It is very competetive (its the only AOA gas program in the western us). They offer 4 positions each year, including the rotating transitional year now. I was told by one of the current residents that in 2003 they had 250+ applicants, and that increased in 2004. He also told me that it was very competetive and if I wanted to be considered seriously for their program I would need to rotate with them.

Here's a suggestion for those of you debating: why not rotate in anesthesia at both an osteopathic program and an allopathic program to compare the two.

Furthermore, why don't you apply to BOTH osteopathic and allopathic residencies. It doesn't cost that much more, and heck, you're already in debt 100+ I'm sure. So apply to both, take a look at them, and get a feel for the programs. In the end if you don't care where you go enter both matches--it can't hurt. If you match aoa, hey--you matched. If not you still have a chance at ama. But if you aren't particularly interested in aoa programs after interviewing there, you don't have to rank them in the match and you won't get dropped from the allopathic match.

That actually works out as a beneficial "second match" from an osteopath's point of view.
 
VentdependenT said:
I imagine if you rotate at a couple of DO programs and do a little reading each day you'll get into one of them as long as you are amiable.

Many osteopathic programs are willing to downplay boards if you can prove yourself clinically and personally.

Zat iz zee DO way, no?
Click to expand...

And of course they look at the "whole picture"
 
It seems like anesthesiology is very popular among DO's! Does anyone have a theory on this??
 
please don't go to a DO program. your training needs to involve sheer volume of cases. you also need lots of attendings to learn from. that way you'll develop your own methods. you need experience in trauma, hearts, neuro, OB, and peds. basically...everything. don't sell yourself short and settle for a DO program. stick with the allopathic programs.
 
gas-x said:
please don't go to a DO program. your training needs to involve sheer volume of cases. you also need lots of attendings to learn from. that way you'll develop your own methods. you need experience in trauma, hearts, neuro, OB, and peds. basically...everything. don't sell yourself short and settle for a DO program. stick with the allopathic programs.
Click to expand...

I wholeheartedly second the above advice. I really find it hard to believe that didactics can be very good w/only 1-2 residents per class.
 
gas-x said:
please don't go to a DO program. your training needs to involve sheer volume of cases. you also need lots of attendings to learn from. that way you'll develop your own methods. you need experience in trauma, hearts, neuro, OB, and peds. basically...everything. don't sell yourself short and settle for a DO program. stick with the allopathic programs.
Click to expand...

I have to agree! I rotated at both allopathic and osteopathic programs. The difference in didactics was night and day. In comparison, the osteopathic programs' didactics did not even come close. For this reason, I did not do the AOA match. I did match in the allopathic match with no problems that I could see.
 
Gas-X,

Just curious, are you a DO? Did you rotate at some AOA residency programs? If so which ones?

I know from talking directly with residents here at Riverside County (CA) that they get a large volume of surgeries, but they definately seem to lack in terms of variety (i.e. cardio, neuro, transplant, peds). As for the didactics I have heard mixed responses and really don't feel like I can accurately comment on that.

I am not considering AOA myself for many reasons, but I am curious as to your reasons for your post.
 
Can MDs enter into DO gas programs outside of the AOA match? And, if so, can you get Board-certified through the ABA? :idea:
 
no they cant enter DO residencies. dont see why they would want to either since md ones, from what i read, reign supreme.
 
Lefty,

Yes, I'm a DO. i have plenty of reasons for picking only allopathic programs. No, I did not rotate through any DO anesthesia programs. I didn't even think about osteopathic programs. So, perhaps my opinion is skewed, but I wasn't going to waste a month out of my third or fourth year to visit a small community hospital (which many DO hospitals are anyways).

1. Like I said before, you need volume of cases to learn from. A variety of patient populations. You need to learn from the sickest of the sick, the poorest of the poor. Sure, most of your patients will be healthy in the private sector, but what do you do when someone really sick comes through? You need confidence, otherwise you're toast. Also, you need to fulfill a certain number of cases in each rotation to graduate. the last thing you want is to be shipped off to another hospital far away just to get the volume you need. do you plan on paying for those hotel fees?

2. You need a ton of attendings to learn from. Whether they're great teachers or not might be another question. But you need to pick up practice habits from different people. Everyone has a different style. you need to develop your own. also you'll learn which attendings are dangerous/risky and which attendings are very conservative.

3. didactics might be better at an allopathic program. i don't know about that. if you have some famous attending lecturing to you in the OR, perhaps you might learn something useful. i assume everyone studies from the same books anyways, so i'll leave this one open.

4. You need a curriculum that will allow you to rotate through every type of surgery out there. That means you need to go through general anesthesia (uro, GI, etc..), OB, peds, neuro, cardiovascular, transplant, burns, ICU, regional anesthesia, trauma and so forth. you need exposure to them all. sure you might not want to do OB later, but how the hell do you know at this point in life?

4. if nothing else, you need a program that carries weight in the community. that means your program name will help you get your first job. anesthesia groups out there know which programs are pretty good. it doesn't mean you can't find a job if you're not in a top ten program. it simply means that groups want to be able to advertise that their docs are from the best programs in the country.

5. having very few residents in your program probably means more call for you. that really sucks. no back up. if you need time off, who's going to cover for you? the remaining two people who are already on q4? forget it. besides, how fun is happy hour with only one other resident?

6. location..is important. i think big cities are better. more exposure like I said in #1. if everyone in your hospital coverage area is caucasian, you might miss out on taking care of someone with diseases that are only common in african-americans, hispanics, etc...

7. if none of the above reasons makes sense, then consider the possibility that you might want to do a fellowship. how many DO programs offer stuff like CT/OB/neuro/ICU/pain/trauma fellowships? i doubt many do. If you do want to do a fellowship for whatever reason (job security, knowledge, procrastination), don't you at least want to have a secured position at your home base? I would.

besides, if i'm in a DO hospital, i might have to do some rib raising prior to starting the ventilator, or some HVLA prior to intubation. no thanks. 🙂
 
Gas-x,

I'm leaning against doing the AOA match myself, and my biggest gripe is that matching to a DO spot precludes matching to an ACGME residency. But I think it's easy to paint an overly negative view of DO anesthesia programs.

I'm curious what DO Anesthesia residencies you are referring to - the two that I have had any experience with - Tulsa Regional (TRMC) and Grandview in Dayton, OH are both in relatively large urban areas with plenty of non-white patients. "The sickest of the sick, the poorest of the poor" - that's the trademark patient of the DO hospital!

My impression is that with the exception of occasional times during internship, no one is going to hastle you to do OMT on anyone during a DO anesthesia program.

At TRMC, the residents start doing CV during the CA-1 year. It is standard in allopathic programs not to do hearts until halfway through CA-2. Because there are fewer residents, there are plenty of cases to go around, so volume per se is not an issue.

I do agree with you that there are sometimes holes with regard to specialties such as neuro, that require away rotations to gain experience. The didactics are definitely weaker at the smaller DO programs. And there is certainly the issue of how a DO residency is viewed. But hey, hopefully we all came to terms with the occasional bias against DOs before going to an osteopathic medical school.

While in the balance of things allopathic anesthesia programs may be preferable, I feel that the DO programs are getting unfairly slammed in this forum on some charges of which they are innocent.
 
Cmon man. I'm sure the DOs read the same Miller and Barash anyone else does and deliver the same anesthetics. Also, I can't see any reason that they can't teach some didactics. 😳
 
inductionagent,

certainly if you feel that those two hospitals provide most of what you need to get an excellent education, that's great. what i do worry about are those programs in the middle of nowhere that carry anesthesia residencies. for instance, some in the earlier posts mentioned that kirksville received 80 applications for 2-3 spots. kirksville is in the middle of nowhere. i would not feel comfortable at all if i had to do residency there.

the main reason i chimed into this thread was because heed and drsleepytime were worried about not matching. they wanted to go through the DO match as as safety measure, but they knew that if they matched then they would be pulled out of the MD match. that's their dilemma. it sounded like they were "settling." my argument is to not sell yourself short and give it a shot. you'll be surprised where you'll get interview spots. i did.

my other argument for not doing the DO match is because they simply have a few programs. let's say i wanted to live in texas. which DO program would be the closest? Tulsa. that's crap. there are 7 programs in the state (if you count lubbock). certainly more choices. i would play the odds. what if you live in california? how many programs are out there? i'd take a chance to apply to every ACGME program in that state. they have at least 10.

in regards to the comment about doing CV anesthesia as a CA1 in Tulsa. Maybe that's great. But I sure as hell don't want to be stuck in a room right now doing CV. It's too damn complicated. I would much rather take my year of CA1 doing more basic things like general anesthesia and OB. i want to have my fundamentals down solid before I muck around in difficult cases. but, maybe you're right. it might be great to to CV early. i'll let you know later. then again, maybe they have you doing CV as a CA1 because they don't have enough residents to cover?

lastly, in regards to the bias DOs get from time to time. For the past two years, i have recieved NO biases from anyone. Not a single comment. and i have to deal with a program that is a surgical powerhouse. I never got the feeling of inferiority throughout my training. Nobody cares. as long as you get your patients through the surgery smoothly, that's all that matters.
 
I agree 100% with gas-x. I am glad someone finally speeled it out. I encourage all DO's out there to not sell themselves short. I applied to a ton of programs and was pleasantly surprised at a number of the interviews I got. None of the DO programs were anywhere near where I wanted to live - VERY geographically challenged. I rotated at a bunch of DO hospitals during my clinical years (none had gas) and I was really not impressed with any of them. I hate to generalize, but whu should others be any different. A large tertiary academic medical center blows away a community hospital in terms of resources, patholgy, numbers, etc. I will be at an extrememy strong program that has had DO's before and has others coming in with me.
 
While I agree with most of Gas-X's arguments I can still see why someone might be interested in an AOA residency if it fulfilled all of the necessary requirements and did provide proper training. The issue about having to travel to another hospital to do neuro or cardio cases I don't think is an issue specific to DO programs. There appear to be many ACGME residencies that have to do the same thing--ship residents out of their main hospital to get specialty training. In fact, this seems very common for pediatric training to send residents to a pediatric hospital.

However, my biggest complaint is that the AOA match is exclusive. You might find an AOA residency that fits your needs, but if it isn't one of your top choices (if it falls behind AMA residencies) then you are screwed if you match there and have to take your chances on the AMA match. 😱 Getting kicked out of the AMA match b/c you match AOA is a very pathetic way of protecting AOA residency spots 😡 , as opposed to real market competetion, which would mean creating and maintaining QUALITY training programs.

So, if you're thinking AOA, there might be some programs that fit your needs, but if there aren't you could shoot yourself in the foot by not applying AMA.

P.S. I am not disputing Gas-X's fundamental argument.
 
I must also add that completing an ACGME residency at an AMC in the general geographic area where I want to practice is very important for me. I know that the market is very good now, but things change. Anyway if a large group were gonna hire me I KNOW that they would rather me trained at the large well-known university program rather than Riverside CA or Doctors General or Tulsa or whatever. Nothing against these places but I want somewhere that is well-known. I know that the groups in the area I wish to practice most if not all have graduates from my program.
 
i also completely agree with Lefty's argument regarding the AOA match rules. It's completely set to protect its own. that's a great reason to NOT go through the match. Sure, you might find an AOA program that will train you well. But, exactly how many programs out there will fulfill your training needs, location needs, fellowship opportunities? Not many. And if it's not your #1 choice (comparing DO and MD programs), then what do you do? I will still play the odds and go for the numbers. unless the AOA program is my number one choice, i would simply kiss them goodbye and go through the ACGME match because simply because of the number of programs in any given area. it's your life and your training. i would never do anything to screw up my chances in getting what i want. if that means pissing off the AOA, then it's cool with me.
 
Along the same lines -- if you are planning for an AOA approved internship year, do you think it will hurt your chances of attaining an AMA CA-1 position. There are less 3 year than four Anesthesia spots. What type of success have people had trying to get non-AOA programs approved for the requirements of internship year?
 
Hi everyone!!

This post may be interpreted several ways, and I realize this before I get started.

I graduated from TCOM this past May (DO). Bottom half of my class, average COMLEX 1 and 2, "respectable"(as per chairman of current residency program)
USMLE Step 1, awesome LORs from big names at my school, and from my Dean, Marc Hahn,D.O. Anesthesiologist (who by the way provided anesthesia for Ronald Regan when he was shot several years ago). Did two away rotations at MD institutions in gas, and matched categorical at OU Health Science Center in OKC.

Also, DOs do not worry too much: FOUR of SIX incoming Anesthesiology Categorical Interns are DOs at OUHSC this year!
I know there is some MD out there who reads this and clenches his or her fist and says "Aha, OU is desperate!" :laugh: Go ahead, it doesn't matter, my conclusion is apparently the matched actually were the best fit for the job! Either way, we will ALL become board-certified Anesthesiologists well qualified to take care of patients someday! The Intern Team we have is a close-knit group of young docs eager to learn Anesthesiology.

For the DO students, I agree with previous posts, skip the DO anesthesia programs, apply to many NRMP programs (I applied to 35);go to every interview, and rank each place. The goal is to become an Anesthesiologist-you can always go wherever you want afterwards!
 
Hi,

I didn't even know there were Osteopathic residencies in Anesthesiology until I came across this thread. Does anybody have any links I can go to to read more about these residencies? I'm having a hard time finding them on google.

Thanks.
 
globalism said:
Hi,

I didn't even know there were Osteopathic residencies in Anesthesiology until I came across this thread. Does anybody have any links I can go to to read more about these residencies? I'm having a hard time finding them on google.

Thanks.
Click to expand...

If you are a SOMA/AOA member, go to
http://do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm
(ordinarily, just type www.do-online.org)

Here's a list of the DO Anesthesia Residencies:

Program Type Hospital Name State/Province City
Anesthesiology Des Peres Hospital MO St. Louis
Anesthesiology Doctors Hospital North OH Columbus
Anesthesiology Grandview Hosp & Medical Ctr OH Dayton
Anesthesiology Heart of Lancaster Regional Med Ctr PA Lancaster
Anesthesiology Ingham Regional Medical Center MI Lansing
Anesthesiology Northeast Regional Med Ctr MO Kirksville
Anesthesiology POH Medical Center MI Pontiac
Anesthesiology Riverside County Regional Medical Center CA Moreno Valley
Anesthesiology South Pointe Hospital OH Cleveland
Anesthesiology Sun Coast Hospital FL Largo
Anesthesiology Tulsa Regional Medical Center OK Tulsa
 
InductionAgent said:
If you are a SOMA/AOA member, go to
http://do-online.osteotech.org/index.cfm
(ordinarily, just type www.do-online.org)

Here's a list of the DO Anesthesia Residencies:

Program Type Hospital Name State/Province City
Anesthesiology Des Peres Hospital MO St. Louis
Anesthesiology Doctors Hospital North OH Columbus
Anesthesiology Grandview Hosp & Medical Ctr OH Dayton
Anesthesiology Heart of Lancaster Regional Med Ctr PA Lancaster
Anesthesiology Ingham Regional Medical Center MI Lansing
Anesthesiology Northeast Regional Med Ctr MO Kirksville
Anesthesiology POH Medical Center MI Pontiac
Anesthesiology Riverside County Regional Medical Center CA Moreno Valley
Anesthesiology South Pointe Hospital OH Cleveland
Anesthesiology Sun Coast Hospital FL Largo
Anesthesiology Tulsa Regional Medical Center OK Tulsa
Click to expand...

tanks.
 
Does anybody have any links I can go to to read more about these residencies? I'm having a hard time finding them on google.
Click to expand...

One of my other pet peeves about the DO residencies--there is not much info on them!!! :mad

The MD residencies have FREIDA website/booklet that gives quite a bit of information. The AOA residencies have the "Opportunities" link through the AOA website. It does not give the same statistics, which makes it more difficult to compare. Plus, I have had technical difficulties pulling up info on the AOA site EVERY time I have used it.

In general the AOA anesthesia websites are also lacking in the amount of information they provide as compared to AMA programs. I don't know if they mean to make it so difficult to compare their programs to AMA programs or not, but it makes it difficult to find out about their programs. If you're lazy, like me, then if its difficult to find out about a program I'd rather not apply.
 
VentdependenT said:
I also find it ridiculous that these programs make absolutely no effort to promote themselves. Their loss.
Click to expand...

I have rotated at 3 D.O anesthesiology residency programs in OH this summer for short periods of time, and can't guess why they do what they do. It may be mere supposition, but since they have a small number of positions available each year that they have no problem getting more than enough applicants for those few positions without having to do much promotion.

Just my $0.02.
 
VentdependenT said:
I also find it ridiculous that these programs make absolutely no effort to promote themselves. Their loss.
Click to expand...

I think that this is the problem with the whole osteopathic establishment. While I am not crazy about the number of new medical schools popping up, I am very excited that Virginia Tech has an osteopathic medical school. Virginia Tech has the reputation of being one of the best engineering/science universities on the Eastern Seaboard. Now, I feel that more people will be informed about what a DO is in that area. I don't feel that the AOA is aggressive enough in getting the word out and supporting scientific research.
 
Doctors Hospital in Columbus, Ohio somehow still carries itself on past reputation. It is a place that has definitely had a drastic "fall from grace" in recent years. Many, many students, interns, residents leave Doctors bitter & unhappy at their experience there. The hospital & DME have actually been sued several times. Ask Dr. Hilliard (the DME) about the lengthy law suit by an ex-ENT track intern by the name of Vern Reynolds, D.O. Trust me, look elsewhere for any D.O. training.
 
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