Hidden costs of DO schools

This forum made possible through the generous support of SDN members, donors, and sponsors. Thank you.
I agree that this is the mentality of most DO admin. And it doesn’t change after your accepted either.
Your school is clearly a different experience than mine and most students I have interacted with.

Your school would reject a student for asking where rotations are located? Because you just said that one should ask that question.
 
Look at your admission package. Next question.

Any further probing would come across as being a future trouble maker.

Really? That's what the other students said too? If your school really greeted you that way, then I have to wonder why you went there in the first place.

I was involved in the admissions of two separate DO schools and this was absolutely NOT my experience at either one.
 
Your school would reject a student for asking where rotations are located? Because you just said that one should ask that question.
No, they would reject for tough questions tho, which is what I was addressing in that comment. If my school got any inkling you were difficult: I.e. asking too many questions, circling back to questions they brushed off/gave incomplete answers or even flat out stated verifiably not true answers like the old stand in: ‘our board pass rate is above the national average.’ Those would definitely be a demerit, they do not want students who do anything other than ‘shut up and move along.’

I have known students who got sent to SPC for challenging test questions and trying to advocate for improved resources like UWorld. I am gonna stop here tho, I just am not interested in discussing this anymore. Onaways I have found my experience was not unique, but more power to anyone whose DO school is not like mine.
 
Last edited:
No, they would reject for tough questions tho, which is what I was addressing in that comment. If my school got any inkling you were difficult: I.e. asking too many questions, circling back to questions they brushed off/gave incomplete answers or even flat out stated verifiably not true answers like the old stand in: ‘our board pass rate is above the national average.’ Those would definitely be a demerit. I have known students who got sent to SPC for challenging test questions.

yup. I have been asking a lot of tough questions on my residency interviews and I have gotten positive feedbacks from most places, very unlike the DO militant way.

we will see if I match on mid March. If not, scrambling into an IM slot isn’t the end of the world.
 
Somebody who's going to dump $250K on a med school should at least have enough brains to ask the students about rotations.

At some part of this process, you have to go in eyes open.

The Board review course bit is questionable, I agree. Adult learners should be free to pick thier best Board resource.

At any rate, OP, you'll make it back as an attending.

I do not how they do things at your school. At my school, the student guides and panels are all first and second years. They don't even know what is going to happen in the 3rd or 4th year. Even if they do know, they themselves are not even sure of what their sites are going to be like. You yourself should know that the majority, particularly the newer, DO schools have questionable rotation sites. The range of quality is so variable that asking about them is not even that helpful!
 
This is definitely true at my school. I was brought in so many times for questioning our administration’s policies (mainly the mandatory boards prep course and timing of COMSAE’s - some people hadn’t even finished half their 3rd year rotations by the time they gave the “qualifying” comsae’s) that it became a running joke between me and my family. The admin makes you feel like a criminal for saying you can do things another way, even if you have a learning disability. I passed Level 2 CE in spite of them, and would’ve come back from aways to do practice OSCE’s for PE if I wasn’t so fed up with my school’s administration.

Basically how my school is. I used to ask relevant questions to the administration. I don't anymore. The vague e-mails saying "it's all in the syllabus" or getting a reply 2 weeks later to piss me off further. There's no point and it's not worth my time. I'm just trying to get through my 4 years without being noticeable and getting my degree.
 
This is definitely true at my school. I was brought in so many times for questioning our administration’s policies (mainly the mandatory boards prep course and timing of COMSAE’s - some people hadn’t even finished half their 3rd year rotations by the time they gave the “qualifying” comsae’s) that it became a running joke between me and my family. The admin makes you feel like a criminal for saying you can do things another way, even if you have a learning disability. I passed Level 2 CE in spite of them, and would’ve come back from aways to do practice OSCE’s for PE if I wasn’t so fed up with my school’s administration.
This is true at my school as well; it's not unique to just DO schools. I've been publicly shouted down at by administrators for questioning certain mandatory attendance policies (certain team-based activities that actually had no team component at all). I guarantee that if an applicant started to ask too many questions at an interview they would definitely be flagged.
 
This is true at my school as well; it's not unique to just DO schools. I've been publicly shouted down at by administrators for questioning certain mandatory attendance policies (certain team-based activities that actually had no team component at all). I guarantee that if an applicant started to ask too many questions at an interview they would definitely be flagged.
How do you have a team-based activity without a team???
 
How do you have a team-based activity without a team???
Trust me I had the same reaction.

It's labeled as a team activity because you're supposed to attend with your team, but in reality there is no necessary team interaction.

:bang:
 
If a school looks poorly upon an applicant for being informed and asking pointed questions regarding important policies then I'm not sure thats a school I'd want to get into anyways.

You are right but unlike residency where it is more of a buyer's market. Med schools are sellers' market. Students are just desperate to get into a med school. I know that I was.
 
@FutureSunnyDoc To not hijack and take away the narrative of your thread, but how are you planning to prep up for your retake? It seems to me that you are doing it very soon and I just want to make sure that you will blow the thing out of water the next time you are doing it.

@Epilepsy365 has written a good script regarding humanism in his previous post and you should check it out. And I hope that this won't come up as a shameless plug but I have written up a post about how to succeed with PE after failure. COMLEX PE Failed

I hope that either resources will be helpful for you and I wish you all the best!!! I am so sorry that this has happened to you but you are so close to the end now. Keep fighting through!!!
 
@FutureSunnyDoc To not hijack and take away the narrative of your thread, but how are you planning to prep up for your retake? It seems to me that you are doing it very soon and I just want to make sure that you will blow the thing out of water the next time you are doing it.

@Epilepsy365 has written a good script regarding humanism in his previous post and you should check it out. And I hope that this won't come up as a shameless plug but I have written up a post about how to succeed with PE after failure. COMLEX PE Failed

I hope that either resources will be helpful for you and I wish you all the best!!! I am so sorry that this has happened to you but you are so close to the end now. Keep fighting through!!!
Thank you so much. I scored low in just one area due to timing so I should be able to handle preparing for it I’ve over the next three weeks. Really appreciate you sharing those resources!
 
If a school looks poorly upon an applicant for being informed and asking pointed questions regarding important policies then I'm not sure thats a school I'd want to get into anyways.

Exactly. I don't know what shady things the newer schools are doing, but I asked very specific questions at all my interviews and I got into every school that interviewed me. Shrug. I've also been involved in two separate schools' admissions and I haven't seen anyone blacklisted due to asking questions. I actually welcome questions when I'm in the role of an interviewer and think those who only ask silly superficial questions to be polite are going to be in for a world of hurt since they're not appropriately screening schools they're interviewing at to make sure it's a good fit.
 
Exactly. I don't know what shady things the newer schools are doing, but I asked very specific questions at all my interviews and I got into every school that interviewed me. Shrug. I've also been involved in two separate schools' admissions and I haven't seen anyone blacklisted due to asking questions. I actually welcome questions when I'm in the role of an interviewer and think those who only ask silly superficial questions to be polite are going to be in for a world of hurt since they're not appropriately screening schools they're interviewing at to make sure it's a good fit.

Many people asked about rotations on my interviews and if they did it in a non-grilling/accusatory way (saw a couple of those honestly and I cringed a bit) it didn't seem to adversely affect anyone. The majority of students we interacted with were 2nd years though, so short of where the rotations were and how many students went, they had limited info, as they had not gone on rotations yet.

As for this thread, I agree that many of the "hidden costs" are either well-known (e.g. taking Steps in addition to COMLEX), are school-specific (e.g. requiring you to pay for a specific board prep, expensive/non-existent rotation housing, etc.), are things that are present at a lot of medical schools in general (e.g. VSAS costs), or are individual specific (e.g. retaking PE, which costs the same at CS and has a similar failure rate - CS fail rate is like 5-6% now... after MDs complained that it was a pointless exam with a 98%+ pass rate).

DO schools are generally more expensive (not all of them), and I think more DO school students and MD state school students don't have the type of saving/family support that most other MD students have, which makes it even more painful. There definitely are added costs, and its one of the many reasons why we still recommend going US MD if you can. That said, comparing it to your next option (i.e. Carib MD) for becoming a doctor, DO is still a much cheaper/easier path.

OP, your situation sucks, and I'm sorry you have to go through all this. Just realize this is all just a bump. Regardless, you are still closer to finishing and all of this will be a distant memory when you are in residency. Focus on doing what you need to do for the PE, and don't look back.
 
Many people asked about rotations on my interviews and if they did it in a non-grilling/accusatory way (saw a couple of those honestly and I cringed a bit) it didn't seem to adversely affect anyone. The majority of students we interacted with were 2nd years though, so short of where the rotations were and how many students went, they had limited info, as they had not gone on rotations yet.

As for this thread, I agree that many of the "hidden costs" are either well-known (e.g. taking Steps in addition to COMLEX), are school-specific (e.g. requiring you to pay for a specific board prep, expensive/non-existent rotation housing, etc.), are things that are present at a lot of medical schools in general (e.g. VSAS costs), or are individual specific (e.g. retaking PE, which costs the same at CS and has a similar failure rate - CS fail rate is like 5-6% now... after MDs complained that it was a pointless exam with a 98%+ pass rate).

DO schools are generally more expensive (not all of them), and I think more DO school students and MD state school students don't have the type of saving/family support that most other MD students have, which makes it even more painful. There definitely are added costs, and its one of the many reasons why we still recommend going US MD if you can. That said, comparing it to your next option (i.e. Carib MD) for becoming a doctor, DO is still a much cheaper/easier path.

OP, your situation sucks, and I'm sorry you have to go through all this. Just realize this is all just a bump. Regardless, you are still closer to finishing and all of this will be a distant memory when you are in residency. Focus on doing what you need to do for the PE, and don't look back.

All of this, especially the bolded. Agreed that it will hurt you if you're interrogating people (I have also seen this). But asking questions in a professional way should not hurt anyone.
 
Maybe it's just my school but my interview offered no info and all info was gained by speaking to 4th years or alumni that I knew outside of school. You couldn't even ask these questions because interviews are largely conducted with preclinical faculty that know nothing useful or "company men" students who aren't really gonna tell you the things SDN would... Basically what I'm saying is that it would be useless and only likely a red flag. Best to lie about being a rural family med doc and eating your cold sandwich then going home.
 
Many people asked about rotations on my interviews and if they did it in a non-grilling/accusatory way (saw a couple of those honestly and I cringed a bit) it didn't seem to adversely affect anyone. The majority of students we interacted with were 2nd years though, so short of where the rotations were and how many students went, they had limited info, as they had not gone on rotations yet.

As for this thread, I agree that many of the "hidden costs" are either well-known (e.g. taking Steps in addition to COMLEX), are school-specific (e.g. requiring you to pay for a specific board prep, expensive/non-existent rotation housing, etc.), are things that are present at a lot of medical schools in general (e.g. VSAS costs), or are individual specific (e.g. retaking PE, which costs the same at CS and has a similar failure rate - CS fail rate is like 5-6% now... after MDs complained that it was a pointless exam with a 98%+ pass rate).

DO schools are generally more expensive (not all of them), and I think more DO school students and MD state school students don't have the type of saving/family support that most other MD students have, which makes it even more painful. There definitely are added costs, and its one of the many reasons why we still recommend going US MD if you can. That said, comparing it to your next option (i.e. Carib MD) for becoming a doctor, DO is still a much cheaper/easier path.

OP, your situation sucks, and I'm sorry you have to go through all this. Just realize this is all just a bump. Regardless, you are still closer to finishing and all of this will be a distant memory when you are in residency. Focus on doing what you need to do for the PE, and don't look back.
All of this, especially the bolded. Agreed that it will hurt you if you're interrogating people (I have also seen this). But asking questions in a professional way should not hurt anyone.

I’m with you guys. At the interview for the school I currently attend (so obviously wasn’t rejected), one of the assistant deans asked us as a group before the campus tour if there was anything else we wanted to know/wanted included/they could have done better. I said I would have liked a 3rd or 4th year around to ask about rotations, though I understood why that was difficult. She then said she would do her best to answer, and to ask all my questions. So I did. Yes I still would have liked 3rd or 4th year, but I wasn’t rejected for asking.

Also, I talked to upperclassmen on SDN. Because of that I always try to pay it forward to the M1s, M2s, (who message me via text or FB) and applicants at my school (who message me on SDN). Even when ~50% don’t even bother to acknowledge or thank me for my response that I thoughtfully typed up despite being busy and exhausted.
 
A 3% hike in tuition is right around the annual inflation rate. Regular increases in tuition aren't unique to DO schools.

This will be offset, at least partially, by an increase in mean compensation over time. Per the Medscape compensation reports:
2012 Family Medicine (Male): $174,000
2016 Family Medicine (Male): $220,000
2019 Family Medicine (Male): $253,000

2012: 2016: 2019:
Besides the fact that the logic behind your reply is terrible,
 

Attachments

  • F9AB3B2D-A4B0-4221-8CB5-BFFA246D78B3.png
    F9AB3B2D-A4B0-4221-8CB5-BFFA246D78B3.png
    275.1 KB · Views: 107
This is paranoid thinking. Just because the nail sticks out, it doesn't mean it's going to get hammered.
That's absolutely what that means. While it didn't happen during the admission process, once admitted during the course of schooling we as a class and as individuals asked several similarly invasive questions about policy, procedure, and consistency within. With few exceptions we were answered with language akin to:

"your behavior in addressing our school has been deemed unprofessional, and we would like to remind you such ongoing unprofessionalism will result in a dismissal hearing."

Of course that's not advertised on interview day, but those deep dark secrets are usually not discovered until it's too late, and you're locked into a relationship with an abusive, gaslighting spouse.
 
That's absolutely what that means. While it didn't happen during the admission process, once admitted during the course of schooling we as a class and as individuals asked several similarly invasive questions about policy, procedure, and consistency within. With few exceptions we were answered with language akin to:

"your behavior in addressing our school has been deemed unprofessional, and we would like to remind you such ongoing unprofessionalism will result in a dismissal hearing."

Of course that's not advertised on interview day, but those deep dark secrets are usually not discovered until it's too late, and you're locked into a relationship with an abusive, gaslighting spouse.
My sympathies that you are at a penal colony instead of a real medical school.

Things work differently here, our Dean is very student-centric, and students have even gotten a clinical Dean fired!

Do you have trusted faculty who can Lobby on your behalf?
 
My sympathies that you are at a penal colony instead of a real medical school.

Things work differently here, our Dean is very student-centric, and students have even gotten a clinical Dean fired!

Do you have trusted faculty who can Lobby on your behalf?

False. Roxas graduated from a well known DO school here -- in fact, a top 3-5 in term of Step 1 average, match rate, and residency placement.

So, your assumption is not legit.
 
My sympathies that you are at a penal colony instead of a real medical school.

Things work differently here, our Dean is very student-centric, and students have even gotten a clinical Dean fired!

Do you have trusted faculty who can Lobby on your behalf?
I'm done now, so it doesn't matter. I have my 300k piece of paper. But from talking to all the people I've met along the way and assuming you are correct, then your school appears to be the exception and mine the rule.
 
They sure didn't treat Roxas well
I'm not trying to go on about poor old me. There were several cases I think of where classmates got screwed way harder than I did. It was more the disdain with which we were talked to as a whole. Which goes to support the reality of many of the above comments.
 
I'm not trying to go on about poor old me. There were several cases I think of where classmates got screwed way harder than I did. It was more the disdain with which we were talked to as a whole. Which goes to support the reality of many of the above comments.
Thank you, I feel like half the posters work for COCA sometimes with all the gas-lighting. Ah ‘DO school isn’t that bad, no one really likes med school.’ Bull crap! At my academic aways their chairs were talking about creating transition years out of thin air for unmatched students so they had full Medicare funding available to try and match again. Compare that to my school where they won’t even give you official time off rotations if you don’t match. They literally told me to ‘work it out’ if I fail to match. I have no intention of not matching but the difference in response is amazing.

But on SDN I can count on the OMS zero brigade to be here soon to tell me how I should be ‘grateful to be a doctor’ and that my school is doing me ‘favors.’ Lol, little twerps, the only person who is trying tI do favors is me trying to warn them, I guess in a way they deserve what’s coming tho when they don’t listen. The DO penalty is much more than just prestige.
 
Yeah, I've seen some DO School administrative behavior which is reprehensible in my opinion. Specifically, unwarranted disciplinary actions against various students. Then, even after the so-called problem is resolved, they have the audacity to mention it in the student's MSPE (Dean's Letter) which produces a real negative impact matching-wise. I've seen this MSPE (Dean's Letter) behavior at various DO schools across the country, but not once at the MD schools I'm familiar with.
 
Thank you, I feel like half the posters work for COCA sometimes with all the gas-lighting. Ah ‘DO school isn’t that bad, no one really likes med school.’ Bull crap! At my academic aways their chairs were talking about creating transition years out of thin air for unmatched students so they had full Medicare funding available to try and match again. Compare that to my school where they won’t even give you official time off rotations if you don’t match. They literally told me to ‘work it out’ if I fail to match. I have no intention of not matching but the difference in response is amazing.

But on SDN I can count on the OMS zero brigade to be here soon to tell me how I should be ‘grateful to be a doctor’ and that my school is doing me ‘favors.’ Lol, little twerps, the only person who is trying tI do favors is me trying to warn them, I guess in a way they deserve what’s coming tho when they don’t listen. The DO penalty is much more than just prestige.

Ditto here.

Some examples from PDs of my aways are:
"Oh, you haven't thought about what you're doing. No worry. I have a job lined up for you right here while you're thinking about fellowship options."

"Oh, you guys haven't maximized your educational funds. Let me see if we can categorize it in some other way for you to use them."

"Oh, you're taking your five days off here... Let us work the schedule to give you the weekends before and after off."

"Oh, you guys have residency interviews lined up. Take as much time as you need during this rotation to take care of that stuff."

I could go on and on. Those things aren't happening at a DO led regime for sure. It's either "my way or the unprofessionalism highway."
 
Ditto here.

Some examples from PDs of my aways are:
"Oh, you haven't thought about what you're doing. No worry. I have a job lined up for you right here while you're thinking about fellowship options."

"Oh, you guys haven't maximized your educational funds. Let me see if we can categorize it in some other way for you to use them."

"Oh, you're taking your five days off here... Let us work the schedule to give you the weekends before and after off."

"Oh, you guys have residency interviews lined up. Take as much time as you need during this rotation to take care of that stuff."

I could go on and on. Those things aren't happening at a DO led regime for sure. It's either "my way or the unprofessionalism highway."
Right? What galls me is the 2 days off per rotation rule for interviews. The MD PDs at away I attended didn’t give a flip if I took days off to attend interviews. They even encouraged it. The 4th yr I was rotating with at an MD school in a specialty elective was present maybe 10 days the whole rotation since she left so often for interviews.
 
Thank you, I feel like half the posters work for COCA sometimes with all the gas-lighting. Ah ‘DO school isn’t that bad, no one really likes med school.’ Bull crap! At my academic aways their chairs were talking about creating transition years out of thin air for unmatched students so they had full Medicare funding available to try and match again. Compare that to my school where they won’t even give you official time off rotations if you don’t match. They literally told me to ‘work it out’ if I fail to match. I have no intention of not matching but the difference in response is amazing.

But on SDN I can count on the OMS zero brigade to be here soon to tell me how I should be ‘grateful to be a doctor’ and that my school is doing me ‘favors.’ Lol, little twerps, the only person who is trying tI do favors is me trying to warn them, I guess in a way they deserve what’s coming tho when they don’t listen. The DO penalty is much more than just prestige.
Thank you for calling it like you see it.

If it’s an individual students’ well being vs a DO handbook, the handbook always wins out. My school had no problem interrupting away rotations with meetings that could have been emails. I had to ignore their calls at times or risk missing rounds at a program I really wanted to match at. I will match in spite of my school, not because of them.
 
Last edited:
That's absolutely what that means. While it didn't happen during the admission process, once admitted during the course of schooling we as a class and as individuals asked several similarly invasive questions about policy, procedure, and consistency within. With few exceptions we were answered with language akin to:

"your behavior in addressing our school has been deemed unprofessional, and we would like to remind you such ongoing unprofessionalism will result in a dismissal hearing."

Of course that's not advertised on interview day, but those deep dark secrets are usually not discovered until it's too late, and you're locked into a relationship with an abusive, gaslighting spouse.
I'm so glad to see your post and posts by others who've endured the same abuse (that is the appropriate label) at the hands of DO school administrators. I really thought I was going insane in the thick of things this year. They make you feel like a criminal with how impersonal and punitive the process feels. It was a huge strain on me, mentally and emotionally, and very distracting during a time in which I needed to concentrate.

Someday when we're attendings we should create a tell-all youtube video.
 
Last edited:
@FutureSunnyDoc To not hijack and take away the narrative of your thread, but how are you planning to prep up for your retake? It seems to me that you are doing it very soon and I just want to make sure that you will blow the thing out of water the next time you are doing it.

@Epilepsy365 has written a good script regarding humanism in his previous post and you should check it out. And I hope that this won't come up as a shameless plug but I have written up a post about how to succeed with PE after failure. COMLEX PE Failed

I hope that either resources will be helpful for you and I wish you all the best!!! I am so sorry that this has happened to you but you are so close to the end now. Keep fighting through!!!
I found your post. Thanks so much!

@Epilepsy365 care to share a link to your humanism post? I could not find it searching through your recent post history. Thanks so much for your help.
 
Seriously goro? What premed thinks to ask about a mandatory board prep course. I don’t think any school was doing that when I applied, so why would I have asked. Nobody knows to ask any of these things unless it posted on places like SDN. It’s ridiculous to try and use ‘buyer beware’ when DO schools are constantly adjusting their curriculums and coming up with new ways to shaft students.
N=1 i asked about board prep during my interview and what the school does to support students during dedicated. Interviewer was an MD and told he how he was sad because students sometimes didn’t attend his class even though he wanted to share his experience as a physician (tips and tricks) before “this old computer stops working.” During interview day, school was very transparent about board prep and material given.
 
Top