"Hidden Curriculum" in Veterinary School?

Started by Gemgrrrl
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Rwwilliams said:
Yeah, I don't have a problem with it and actually almost prefer it to being asked one or two questions and then being left alone. I want my knowledge to be probed and I want preceptors to ask me to know more and more and test the limits of my comfort zone. I can see how some more sensitive classmates would feel bullied, however.
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I got pimped about 5 times today during chicken necropsy. It definitely happens in vet school. And there's nothing wrong with it. If they do it nicely and in a way that is conducive to learning, I usually get something out of it. Unfortunately, some people are afraid to be wrong, and see this probing of questions to be somewhat of an attempt to make you look like a fool. I don't think that's what instructors are trying to do. Most just want to see what you know...and then tell you what you don't know, but SHOULD know.
 
psilovethomas said:
I got pimped about 5 times today during chicken necropsy. It definitely happens in vet school. And there's nothing wrong with it. If they do it nicely and in a way that is conducive to learning, I usually get something out of it. Unfortunately, some people are afraid to be wrong, and see this probing of questions to be somewhat of an attempt to make you look like a fool. I don't think that's what instructors are trying to do. Most just want to see what you know...and then tell you what you don't know, but SHOULD know.
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That's the thing, though. The PIMPing I've heard about from med school friends is definitely not nice in any way, shape, or form. Of course, it's always what you make of it! We're picking our third year rotation sites at the moment and there's a couple sites that are pretty well-known as being just awful. Our faculty members are telling us to keep an open mind. If you walk in to an equine rotation saying "I'm never going to use this. I want to be a small animal internist. Horses are dumb," yeah, you'll have a bad time, they'll probably PIMP you, and they won't like you.
 
I guess you can say my current boss does that as well. She asks us about what she's doing, or something off the wall that's related to a case. If it's a question ahe expects us to be able to answer (especially the techs), she tells us to look it up snd get back to her.

One of my first questions was why we never allow a dog to roll in a full circle (say, we were doing a cysto and the dog was on its back). I went down the wrong track and though it was because we could lose control of the dog, but the answer was torsion risk lol.
 
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psilovethomas said:
I got pimped about 5 times today during chicken necropsy. It definitely happens in vet school. And there's nothing wrong with it. If they do it nicely and in a way that is conducive to learning, I usually get something out of it. Unfortunately, some people are afraid to be wrong, and see this probing of questions to be somewhat of an attempt to make you look like a fool. I don't think that's what instructors are trying to do. Most just want to see what you know...and then tell you what you don't know, but SHOULD know.
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Exactly.

On rotations, we have to grade not only on performance, but also on walkaround knowledge. Asking questions is the only way to do it. We're not trying to be dicks; we're trying to see what you know.

I do admit though....I do enjoy asking students very firmly if they sampled the horse's gallbladder, and watching the ensuing initial scramble :laugh:
 
Rwwilliams said:
That's the thing, though. The PIMPing I've heard about from med school friends is definitely not nice in any way, shape, or form. Of course, it's always what you make of it! We're picking our third year rotation sites at the moment and there's a couple sites that are pretty well-known as being just awful. Our faculty members are telling us to keep an open mind. If you walk in to an equine rotation saying "I'm never going to use this. I want to be a small animal internist. Horses are dumb," yeah, you'll have a bad time, they'll probably PIMP you, and they won't like you.
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If you walk in with that type of attitude, you (the generic "you") deserve to have a bad time.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Exactly.

On rotations, we have to grade not only on performance, but also on walkaround knowledge. Asking questions is the only way to do it. We're not trying to be dicks; we're trying to see what you know.

I do admit though....I do enjoy asking students very firmly if they sampled the horse's gallbladder, and watching the ensuing initial scramble :laugh:
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So the sooner you answer wrong, the sooner you quit getting interrogated, got it... 😉
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Exactly.

On rotations, we have to grade not only on performance, but also on walkaround knowledge. Asking questions is the only way to do it. We're not trying to be dicks; we're trying to see what you know.
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Oh whatEVER. You know that at least 25% of the time you're not doing it for the purpose of assessment but for your own evil entertainment. You've already decided on a grade 30 seconds after meeting the students. Lying liar that lies.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
Talk to the grad students, interns, or residents themselves. Can't stress than enough. Don't meet with just the PI and have him paint a beautiful picture of the lab. Try to tour for a full day or attend a lab meeting to see what the atmosphere is like.
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When I read this I was thinking that the horror story labs would never let anyone attend a lab meeting or spend a day in the lab. They are super secretive about their work, and don't want anyone in their lab talking about their work. I always thought this was kind of strange, but I've only had experience in one lab, so what do I know?
 
Gemgrrrl said:
When I read this I was thinking that the horror story labs would never let anyone attend a lab meeting or spend a day in the lab. They are super secretive about their work, and don't want anyone in their lab talking about their work. I always thought this was kind of strange, but I've only had experience in one lab, so what do I know?
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Student enrollment and stuff is also public record. If someone was making it that difficult (which is already suspicious) it wouldn't be that hard to find some grad students on the school directory and email them to ask about that lab/PI. I know some people in some not so good situations and they go out of their way to warn anyone who will listen to avoid that lab and the PI like the plague...
 
lailanni said:
The SA side of the hospital had some ego issues at times, but was generally ok. At least it was for the amount of time I spent there. 2 weeks in a rotation and out. I did see some interns get some fairly rude talkings to from residents. But I would have never wanted an internship for a million other reasons.

The LA area of the barns was always very friendly. TOTALLY different in the equine barns. One of the Equine surgeons had a reputation for being extremely hard to work with. He'd throw things at people, even during surgery, and it would be very ballsy for a student to attempt to talk to him. There has been many rumors about sexual harassment and gender bias (male residents getting more opportunities). The residents would take most of the heat and talk to him so he wouldn't have to deal with students. We were also told not to bother him, don't try conversation and even to avoid eye contact. I can't personally vouch for any of the rumors since I limited my equine time, but I could see how everyone was visibly more tense and on edge when he was around. Supposedly he's a great/famous surgeon and that's why he's gotten away with so much. It's a shame that's acceptable in an educational institution.
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Why do I think I probably know who you are talking about? Penn?
 
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DVMDream said:
So the sooner you answer wrong, the sooner you quit getting interrogated, got it... 😉
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I wish that was the case. I'm not afraid to say "I don't know" but I always make a good effort to answer as best I can. I understand continued questioning to see what I do know, fine. But I find it excruciatingly stupid when a clinician drags it out past the point where it is abundantly clear that I have zero freaking clue. Guessing is not a learning strategy.
 
LetItSnow said:
Wait, it's not? TRH, it's been my entire strategy for fourth year. Answer quickly in rounds so you're "participating," but answer wrong so they can't keep following up! 😉
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Unless they just keep asking you the same question in different ways trying to trigger your memory. Which is what I do to my kids.

Of course, it doesn't usually work with them either... but I still have hope!
 
Gemgrrrl said:
Unless they just keep asking you the same question in different ways trying to trigger your memory. Which is what I do to my kids.

Of course, it doesn't usually work with them either... but I still have hope!
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Well, usually in the time it takes me to answer wrong, some rotation mate has googled the answer and tries to look smart by correcting me.
 
Gemgrrrl said:
Unless they just keep asking you the same question in different ways trying to trigger your memory. Which is what I do to my kids.

Of course, it doesn't usually work with them either... but I still have hope!
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I get the idea behind it, and I'm not opposed to trying to phrase it different ways, but there comes a point where it is clear I have no fxing clue and I wish they would just drop it already. Give them three tries and move on. (Having just been dragged through another microscope session at my current rotation where I literally almost began sobbing into the eye pieces, I'm feeling particularly irritated...)
 
that redhead said:
I get the idea behind it, and I'm not opposed to trying to phrase it different ways, but there comes a point where it is clear I have no fxing clue and I wish they would just drop it already. Give them three tries and move on. (Having just been dragged through another microscope session at my current rotation where I literally almost began sobbing into the eye pieces, I'm feeling particularly irritated...)
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But how else are we supposed to harvest student tears to bathe in?
 
that redhead said:
I get the idea behind it, and I'm not opposed to trying to phrase it different ways, but there comes a point where it is clear I have no fxing clue and I wish they would just drop it already. Give them three tries and move on. (Having just been dragged through another microscope session at my current rotation where I literally almost began sobbing into the eye pieces, I'm feeling particularly irritated...)
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You know the three poke rule that comes up for trying to get blood from an animal? That should apply to vet students. Poke us threee times with questions, and then move on because past that, you're just torturing us.
 
WhtsThFrequency said:
But how else are we supposed to harvest student tears to bathe in?
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Just wait around until I spill formalin on my gown during gross and my eyes start burning and don't allow me to go change my gown because you "don't see anything on [my] gown, it's probably just that you (are an idiot and) didn't leave your mouse over the fume hood" :yeahright:

Sorry, I need to stop. Deep breathing.
 
that redhead said:
Just wait around until I spill formalin on my gown during gross and my eyes start burning and don't allow me to go change my gown because you "don't see anything on [my] gown, it's probably just that you (are an idiot and) didn't leave your mouse over the fume hood" :yeahright:

Sorry, I need to stop. Deep breathing.
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That person sounds like

AisOYaOZdrS1i.gif

 
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