Hiding an academic past?

[ShayRay]

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I'm currently working on my associate's at a community college. Afterwards I expect to transfer to a 4-year university to finish up my Bachelor's...then (hopefully) off to med school!

One of my classmates is also planning on med school. He told me that he used to be an undergrad at some university, but dropped out after flunking a few of his classes. That was several years ago. Now he's started everything over and has a 4.0 GPA. When he's done with his associate's, he wants to transfer to a (different) university to get his bachelor's. However, he told me that he isn't going to report his previous coursework when he transfers and later when he applies to med school. Now, I was pretty appalled when I heard this. I mean, beyond the obvious moral offense, won't he get caught? He's aware that he might be questioned about the "gap" between high school and community college, but seems pretty confident he can keep his previous undergrad work a secret. Seriously, aren't there databases (or some other means) to screen applicants on where they've been enrolled previously? I haven't been able to find anything like that, but maybe somebody out there knows. It just seems too easy to hide one's academic past 🙁

 

[drizzt3117]

You should tell "your classmate" that there's a national clearinghouse that schools can consult to look up a list of schools attended.

 

[maxwell0]

You should tell "your classmate" that there's a national clearinghouse that schools can consult to look up a list of schools attended.

+1

You need to tell this guy to be honest about his coursework. If he matriculates, and then is found out, he will be dismissed from his medical school and be out the tuition he has paid. I'm not sure about this, but there maybe even be legal ramifications for lying on an application.

 

[Parts Unknown]

I mean, beyond the obvious moral offense, won't he get caught? He's aware that he might be questioned about the "gap" between high school and community college, but seems pretty confident he can keep his previous undergrad work a secret. Seriously, aren't there databases (or some other means) to screen applicants on where they've been enrolled previously? I haven't been able to find anything like that, but maybe somebody out there knows. It just seems too easy to hide one's academic past 🙁

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

Your only dilemma is whether you should burst his bubble now and enjoy the reaction, or let him screw himself down the road.

 

[ShayRay]

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

Your only dilemma is whether you should burst his bubble now and enjoy the reaction, or let him screw himself down the road.

Indeed, that is a dilemma.

 

[ShyRem]

And if gets caught lying on his application and is kicked out, not only is he out his tuition but he's blackballed from any medical school in the US. Reapplication after such a catastrophic lie is not a possibility.

 

[Mister T]

]I'm currently working on my associate's at a community college. Afterwards I expect to transfer to a 4-year university to finish up my Bachelor's.[/B]..then (hopefully) off to med school!

One of my classmates is also planning on med school. He told me that he used to be an undergrad at some university, but dropped out after flunking a few of his classes. That was several years ago. Now he's started everything over and has a 4.0 GPA. When he's done with his associate's, he wants to transfer to a (different) university to get his bachelor's. However, he told me that he isn't going to report his previous coursework when he transfers and later when he applies to med school. Now, I was pretty appalled when I heard this. I mean, beyond the obvious moral offense, won't he get caught? He's aware that he might be questioned about the "gap" between high school and community college, but seems pretty confident he can keep his previous undergrad work a secret. Seriously, aren't there databases (or some other means) to screen applicants on where they've been enrolled previously? I haven't been able to find anything like that, but maybe somebody out there knows. It just seems too easy to hide one's academic past 🙁

Does your friend have multiple personality disorder?

 

[loik22]

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

Your only dilemma is whether you should burst his bubble now and enjoy the reaction, or let him screw himself down the road.

Is this also valid with Grad school? I am taking business school classes (MBA) from a top program in the US but I would prefer not mentioning it. To me, this does not reflect positively on my motivation to become an MD. However, my employer suggested I take and pays for these classes. Any advice?

 

[ShyRem]

You are required to reveal all courses taken for credit. Graduate, undergraduate, college courses during high school, courses taken 20 or 30 years ago, everything.

 

[loik22]

You are required to reveal all courses taken for credit. Graduate, undergraduate, college courses during high school, courses taken 20 or 30 years ago, everything.

Thanks. I will give the Adcom plenty to read then. The MD I am shadowing with says the MBA is a good thing, not for me, any opinions?

A more random question: how would they check things taken 20 years a ago? I remember calling back my undergrad institution a while back to ask for some transcripts. I was told on the phone I graduated before digital records so it would take a while. I could picture the person going to the basement to get my file, and go to the copy room afterwards

 

[drizzt3117]

Thanks. I will give the Adcom plenty to read then. The MD I am shadowing with says the MBA is a good thing, not for me, any opinions?

A more random question: how would they check things taken 20 years a ago? I remember calling back my undergrad institution a while back to ask for some transcripts. I was told on the phone I graduated before digital records so it would take a while. I could picture the person going to the basement to get my file, and go to the copy room afterwards

It's not uncommon for med students to have MBAs... I have one, it was nothing but a big positive on the interview trail.

 

[NTF]

Tell your "classmate" not to even consider it.

 

[ShyRem]

These days many physicians are going back to school for business degrees. Business matters take up a lot of a physician's time.

 

[BuckFMP]

I have a MBA from a good program too and it hasn't hurt me at all. Considering the number of schools that are now offering joint MD-DO/MBA programs, I don't see why it would be frowned upon. Believe it or not, there are plenty of docs whose businesses are struggling mightily. It's hard to provide top care if you can't even make ends meet.
I would quickly dispel any notion that an MBA is greed driven (I'm assuming this is the concern), and point out that you are well trained in analytical, rational, economic decision making. These are valuable skills in any environment. Also, diversity is valued in an application, and this certainly adds to yours.

 

[Eyesore]

I think I know your friend. Is his name Tyler Durden by any chance?

 

[7starmantis]

I think I know your friend. Is his name Tyler Durden by any chance?

Nah, that would make him the all singing all dancing crap of the world.

 

[QofQuimica]

I don't care how bad a person's grades are--a mature adult should just (wo)man up and accept responsibility rather than perjure himself or herself. An F in character is infinitely more damaging to a person's future medical career than an F in chemistry is.

 

[BuckFMP]

I don't care how bad a person's grades are--a mature adult should just (wo)man up and accept responsibility rather than perjure himself or herself. An F in character is infinitely more damaging to a person's future medical career than an F in chemistry is.

Oh yeah.... and I would have no qualms outing someone for BS like that. Too many people are working way too hard (many of whom have fought through their own academic struggles) to lose out to a cheater/liar. Think of me what you will, but I find it intolerable.

 

[Mister T]

Oh yeah.... and I would have no qualms outing someone for BS like that. Too many people are working way too hard (many of whom have fought through their own academic struggles) to lose out to a cheater/liar. Think of me what you will, but I find it intolerable.

You must not have been invited to many parties where illegal activities like underage drinking may have occurred then huh?

 

[EdLongshanks]

You must not have been invited to many parties where illegal activities like underage drinking may have occurred then huh?

Apples, Oranges. Underage drinking does not give students a competitive edge over others. Our laws attempt (unsuccessfully) to prevent 19 and 20 year olds from hurting themselves this way. But cheating, in order to take the place of someone else more worthy, is a different level of offense.

Med School admission is a zero-sum game. For every slot gained, someone else loses one. Yet, strangely enough, the participants on SDN wish their competitors well. Even the posters on in the school-specific discussion help one another, even though they are directly in competition. It's almost like one Olympic sprinter giving good training advice to another.

But, the sprinter who is training honestly is very upset at the thought of his competitors using steroids. He hopes that they get caught and is not averse to turning them in.

 

[Mister T]

Apples, Oranges. Underage drinking does not give students a competitive edge over others. Our laws attempt (unsuccessfully) to prevent 19 and 20 year olds from hurting themselves this way. But cheating, in order to take the place of someone else more worthy, is a different level of offense.

Med School admission is a zero-sum game. For every slot gained, someone else loses one. Yet, strangely enough, the participants on SDN wish their competitors well. Even the posters on in the school-specific discussion help one another, even though they are directly in competition. It's almost like one Olympic sprinter giving good training advice to another.

But, the sprinter who is training honestly is very upset at the thought of his competitors using steroids. He hopes that they get caught and is not averse to turning them in.

😴

 

[7starmantis]

You must not have been invited to many parties where illegal activities like underage drinking may have occurred then huh?

Haha, I went to a party with an acquaintance one time many, many, many years ago. It was great until I suddenly realized everyone looked rather young. He then freaks out and tells me he didn't realize everyone was under age. I decided to leave and saw the cops pulling up as I left. I ran like a scared baby girl!

Maybe my physical fitness level and genetic speed is what got me in med school. C'mon, lets not act like being invited to break the law is somehow over-compelling and thus reasonable to lie about. No one held a gun to your head and made you smoke it!

 

[Mister T]

Haha, I went to a party with an acquaintance one time many, many, many years ago. It was great until I suddenly realized everyone looked rather young. He then freaks out and tells me he didn't realize everyone was under age. I decided to leave and saw the cops pulling up as I left. I ran like a scared baby girl!

Maybe my physical fitness level and genetic speed is what got me in med school. C'mon, lets not act like being invited to break the law is somehow over-compelling and thus reasonable to lie about. No one held a gun to your head and made you smoke it!

Nobody likes snitches, in general. In fact, there was an excellent Boondocks episode about this.

http://video.adultswim.com/the-boondocks/thank-you-for-not-snitching.html

Incompetence is one thing and I agree that if a physician is going to kill someone or is a serious threat for example, then that person needs to be delicensed. But being "that kid" who tattle-tales is just not a good attitude to have in life. But then again, I'm speaking to an audience of neurotic premed gunners that sit in the front row and ask a billion questions, so I know that my opinion won't be popular here.

 

[7starmantis]

Nobody likes snitches, in general. In fact, there was an excellent Boondocks episode about this.

http://video.adultswim.com/the-boondocks/thank-you-for-not-snitching.html

Incompetence is one thing and I agree that if a physician is going to kill someone or is a serious threat for example, then that person needs to be delicensed. But being "that kid" who tattle-tales is just not a good attitude to have in life. But then again, I'm speaking to an audience of neurotic premed gunners that sit in the front row and ask a billion questions, so I know that my opinion won't be popular here.

Haha, you have a point. I wasn't really addressing the "tattling" issue but more the getting thrown out and deserving it issue. However, patient care as a resident or physician isn't liken to adult swim, hard decisions have to be made. When I'm dying, I'll take the neurotic tattle tale trauma surgeon for $1000 Alex. Oh and, yeah, I dont fit that audience either, not even close. Just sayin

Edit: I see my bad. You were responding about "outing someone". We agree. That just drips gunner.

 

[loik22]

I would quickly dispel any notion that an MBA is greed driven (I'm assuming this is the concern), and point out that you are well trained in analytical, rational, economic decision making. These are valuable skills in any environment. Also, diversity is valued in an application, and this certainly adds to yours.

Thank you for the positive comment. Actually, greed is not a concern since I would not go back to school full time for 4 years + residency and forgo my current salary. What I am more afraid of having the adcom think I do not know what I want and have been going to school for various degrees (except for MBA, I completed all the other ones).

 

[EdLongshanks]

Nobody likes snitches, in general.

"Snitch" is an insult that is used by groups of people who are trying to hide some pretty bad behavior. I believe that in certain institutions (notably medical schools) it's called an "honor code".

 

[Mister T]

"Snitch" is an insult that is used by groups of people who are trying to hide some pretty bad behavior. I believe that in certain institutions (notably medical schools) it's called an "honor code".

And I am reminded why I stay away from most premeds

 

[drizzt3117]

Thank you for the positive comment. Actually, greed is not a concern since I would not go back to school full time for 4 years + residency and forgo my current salary. What I am more afraid of having the adcom think I do not know what I want and have been going to school for various degrees (except for MBA, I completed all the other ones).

med schools would generally prefer you finished degrees that you started.

 

[futureboy]

And I am reminded why I stay away from most premeds

Personally, I don't care if someone is smoking weed, drinking underage, or things like that. I wouldn't even consider reporting that relatively minor misconduct. Academic dishonesty, however, is ENTIRELY different. If someone cheats on tests or hides previous coursework, it gives him/her an unfair admissions advantage over those who play by the rules. THAT is why it is COMPLETELY appropriate to report academic dishonesty and fraud. In my field, you are REQUIRED to report violations of the disciplinary rules, and if you don't, YOU have violated the disciplinary rules, too. I suspect the physician ethical rules have a similar provision.

 

[nickmx50]

http://www.studentclearinghouse.org/

Your only dilemma is whether you should burst his bubble now and enjoy the reaction, or let him screw himself down the road.

No reason to help a dishonest person become a physician.

 

[Mister T]

Personally, I don't care if someone is smoking weed, drinking underage, or things like that. I wouldn't even consider reporting that relatively minor misconduct. Academic dishonesty, however, is ENTIRELY different. If someone cheats on tests or hides previous coursework, it gives him/her an unfair admissions advantage over those who play by the rules. THAT is why it is COMPLETELY appropriate to report academic dishonesty and fraud. In my field, you are REQUIRED to report violations of the disciplinary rules, and if you don't, YOU have violated the disciplinary rules, too. I suspect the physician ethical rules have a similar provision.

Life is fundamentally unfair my friend.

In any case, to each his/her own. I know that I've seen kids cheat before, and frankly I never even had the desire to report those kids. Maybe that kid was having a rough day, or God knows what, but if they're good enough a little mishap here or there won't make them a bad doctor. Besides, if they were REALLY unqualified they would fail and burn out eventually. So nature has its own built-in mechanisms for weeding out the weak.

Now if someone ****s me over to get a good grade, then all's fair in me ****ing them over, but if they're doing no harm to no one else (or negligible), who the **** cares?

THAT is why it is COMPLETELY appropriate to report academic dishonesty and fraud.

Ok, well the next time I see you speeding, I'm going to call the cops and personally detain you through a citizen's arrest.

 

[drizzt3117]

Cheating is definitely something you'll deal with in med school. Even in pf schools. I wouldn't say it's rampant, but it happens everywhere. For the most part, people aren't turned in, unfortunately.

 

[futureboy]

Ok, well the next time I see you speeding, I'm going to call the cops and personally detain you through a citizen's arrest.

Yeah, right, because speeding is EXACTLY the same as academic fraud...

 

[7starmantis]

Besides, if they were REALLY unqualified they would fail and burn out eventually. So nature has its own built-in mechanisms for weeding out the weak.

Now if someone ****s me over to get a good grade, then all's fair in me ****ing them over, but if they're doing no harm to no one else (or negligible), who the **** cares?

Let me clarify my position here, I dont support trying to be the "whisper sheriff" and tattle on people and I dont support turning a blind eye to serious infractions around you. I dont think I stand solid enough on either side for a universal statement about it, situations can vary.

That being said, the above statement sounds a little like apologetics for the bystander effect. "I choose to believe that karma will get everyone, so I dont have to concern myself with it, so I have no responsibility to act in a situation that doesn't specifically effect me". The fact that you are quick to state how you feel about the exact same situation if, and only if, it directly affects you is telling to how you really view the entire debate. Its bad, but not worth your energy unless it affects you.

Again, I'm not really taking a position, I think its a little ridiculous to make universal assumptions about things like this, but if, and I say IF, you are going to argue it, at least hold true throughout the argument. IF the action (cheating) is bad enough for you to use expletives to explain your reaction if it affects yourself, THEN it is also bad if it doesn't affect you.

Just saying.

I've seen people cheat, and didn't feel the need to break a path to the professor's door, but I wouldn't say never because the situation could be very different. When it comes to patient care though, I have to side with at least giving the information to someone.

 

[wholeheartedly]

If they're willing to cheat and take the easy out in school, they're likely to cheat and take the easy way out with the patient, in addition to not having the same knowledge base as someone who actually took the time to learn the material. (exs: not following up with something quickly, not running some test they suspect might explain the pts. problem because it means they'll have to stay awake or stay at the hospital longer etc). I see this on occassion. The eventual cheating the patient part is where I've go the major issue.

 

[austinblnd]

Now if someone ****s me over to get a good grade, then all's fair in me ****ing them over, but if they're doing no harm to no one else (or negligible), who the **** cares?

Lying on an academic record about failing classes to get into medical school takes away a life opportunity from some other hard working and honest pre-medical student. You call that doing no harm to no one else?

Use logic before you post a rant; it might save you some credibility and from looking stupid. 👎

 

[Mister T]

Lying on an academic record about failing classes to get into medical school takes away a life opportunity from some other hard working and honest pre-medical student. You call that doing no harm to no one else?

Use logic before you post a rant; it might save you some credibility and from looking stupid. 👎

Sorry but coming from you that... that doesn't mean a lot.

 

[austinblnd]

Sorry but coming from you that... that doesn't mean a lot.

I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum with morals that would agree with me

 

[Mister T]

I'm sure there are a lot of people on this forum with morals that would agree with me

No.

Use logic before you post a rant; it might save you some credibility and from looking stupid.

I'll start using logic with you when your balls finally descend.

from looking stupid.

Coming from a high school kid, you speak from experience of course.

 

[austinblnd]

No.



I'll start using logic with you when your balls finally descend.



Coming from a high school kid, you speak from experience of course.

Haha. I was taught right from wrong when I was about four. Besides who wants to get treated by a doctor who lied to get into medical school? 👎

 

[7starmantis]

 

[futureboy]

I dont support trying to be the "whisper sheriff" and tattle on people and I dont support turning a blind eye to serious infractions around you.

I agree with this. I probably would not report someone unless it was pretty serious and the proof was very strong. I do, however, fully support those that choose to report academic dishonesty. The more likely it is that cheaters will be caught, the less cheating there will be.

 

[EdLongshanks]

I'll start using logic with you when your ... .

Did I miss something, or didn't we previously try to treat each other with more respect here?

 

[jl lin]

😎Love that guy👍 He just keeps chewing, and he doesn't gain an ounce.😉

 

[7starmantis]

😎Love that guy👍 He just keeps chewing, and he doesn't gain an ounce.😉

👍 I think its an inherent high school trait or something. 🙂

 

[austinblnd]

👍 I think its an inherent high school trait or something. 🙂

This may be true haha but it's nice to see this fool got banned for trolling

 

[FutureOrthoDoc]

Apples, Oranges. Underage drinking does not give students a competitive edge over others. Our laws attempt (unsuccessfully) to prevent 19 and 20 year olds from hurting themselves this way. But cheating, in order to take the place of someone else more worthy, is a different level of offense.

Med School admission is a zero-sum game. For every slot gained, someone else loses one. Yet, strangely enough, the participants on SDN wish their competitors well. Even the posters on in the school-specific discussion help one another, even though they are directly in competition. It's almost like one Olympic sprinter giving good training advice to another.

But, the sprinter who is training honestly is very upset at the thought of his competitors using steroids. He hopes that they get caught and is not averse to turning them in.

Food for thought