High School Student with some questions

[runforfun529]

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[Gfunk6]

Well my main questions are: Do I have a chance of going on the track of a Medical Scientist and being accepted into an MSTP program?

I'm sorry to say that you have no chance whatsoever. Recent studies have shown that students who attend high schools w/o honors have produced zero students who have attended MSTPS. Seriously.

No, just pulling your chain.

But seriously . . .

What schools should I consider for my undergraduate in order to prep me for an MSTP program?

Go for the usual suspects. Harvard, Penn, CalTech, MIT, Princeton, Yale, Princeton, etc. etc.

Your main goal would be to accumulate as much meaningful continguous research as possible in a single lab. Obviously, going to bigger name places will allow you to find a lab much more easily. Simultaneously, you will have to compete with other undergraduates, graduate students, and post-docs for projects and your name on publications. Commitment to research is the single most important factor for MSTP admission -- try to get your name on a publication if you can.

What should I major in for my undergraduate?

Do not feel obligated to major in the biological sciences. This is the last time in your life you will have to puruse a non-science releated subject in depth. Regardless, you will have to take the typical pre-med core. Please ask yourself this question, "If I don't get into med school or change my mind, will I be satsified with a degree from field X." Majoring in biological science doesn't offer you a whole lot of possibilities outside of med school/grad school.

and finally, What should I do now to prepare (test scores, etc.)?

As far as MCAT goes, take it easy -- you have plenty of time. Getting high SAT I/SAT II scores obviously are of more pressing interest to you now.

Please note that this is an "idealized" path and by no means is the only way to successfully enter an MSTP. My own experiences resulted in the following,

Good public high school --> Solid undergrad (no natl rep on USNews) --> MSTP in top 25 school (USNews) --> Residency in top 5 school (USNews)

 

[runforfun529]

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[QofQuimica]

You sound like a very bright, motivated student, and that's a great thing. But I really think that it's a mistake to limit yourself to only one career option when you're only halfway through high school. Try to expose yourself to as many experiences as you can, including research and medicine, but other things as well. (It sounds like you are already doing this with your sports and your music, so keep doing those things.) I say this because one thing that I have experienced as someone who teaches pre-meds is that many of them change their minds during college and realize that they like the IDEA of being a physician or a scientist better than they like the actual work. It's a big world out there, and there are many ways that you can contribute to society besides through medicine and research. It's definitely ok if you realize at some point that you don't want to do medical research after all, but it's best if you come to this conclusion sooner rather than later so that you can spend your time on something else that you like better.

One difficulty is that it's hard to know ahead of time whether you will truly enjoy research enough to want to earn a Ph.D. in science until you actually do some research. So one other suggestion that I would make is that you should try to find a lab to volunteer or work in even as a high schooler. This may be harder for you to do than it is for college students, since you haven't studied the college level sciences yet, but there are definitely some programs geared toward teenagers. I don't know what is available in Ohio, but here in Florida we have a program called Young Scholars where HS students who want to go into science go to Florida State U for the summer, take classes, live in the dorms, and work in research labs. I did this myself fifteen years ago, and I know the program is still going, because one undergrad who worked with me last summer had also done it a few years ago. You might try going to your HS guidance counselor and asking about what science programs are available for high schoolers in your state. If there isn't a state-sponsored program like that in Ohio, then I would suggest trying to find a researcher at Case Western or the Cleveland Clinic who would be willing to let you spend some time in their lab. Even if all you do at first is to just observe them, the important thing is for you to get into the lab and see whether you even like that sort of work. Of course, ideally you would get to learn how to perform some lab techniques and maybe even do a little project of your own.

Best of luck to you with your journey, and I hope it will be a successful one, as well as a FUN one.

 

[WhiteRussian]

umm yeah... I didnt even know what MSTPs were until a couple years ago I think you'll be fine, you seem plenty motivated, intelligent and well rounded. But do keep your options open to see what you really like, and do try to enjoy yourself along the way

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

GET OFF SDN!!!

You are in high school...enjoy it! Go to your high school's sporting events, meet chicks, and drink beer. Please goodness, enjoy your life and stop thinking about what's coming up in 6 years or so.

 

[runforfun529]

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[QofQuimica]

Ha, well I'm a girl, so meeting chicks really isn't on my agenda. And I've given up on all but one high school guy , most are just too immature. As for beer, not my thing.

I'd say I'm active enough anyway. Cross country, track, marching band, concert band, indoor drumline, JETS, Model UN, and the job I'll be working this summer. I'm just doing this stuff so that I know what will come.

And I think it is kind of pressing. Within 2 years I will have to figure out where I'm going for my undergrad.

Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself I'm not a nerd.

Just reading your list of activities is making me tired. There's nothing wrong with being a nerd. And you are right; guys definitely don't mature as fast as girls do. But once you get to college, being a nerd gets much cooler. And stick to your guns about the beer.

Are you getting any kind of guidance from your parents and/or your high school? There ought to be someone at your school who can help you with this kind of planning, and it would be great if you could discuss these issues with your parents too. Your guidance counselor or your school library should have books describing colleges; you might want to check out one of those books and start looking at schools. If you have time this summer, you can start to go visit some of them. A lot of schools will also let prospective students stay overnight in a dorm with a student (at least the FL schools do), so that's another option you might consider.

 

[Vader]

Ha, well I'm a girl, so meeting chicks really isn't on my agenda. And I've given up on all but one high school guy , most are just too immature. As for beer, not my thing.

I'd say I'm active enough anyway. Cross country, track, marching band, concert band, indoor drumline, JETS, Model UN, and the job I'll be working this summer. I'm just doing this stuff so that I know what will come.

And I think it is kind of pressing. Within 2 years I will have to figure out where I'm going for my undergrad.

Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself I'm not a nerd.

It sounds like you are very self-motivated, which is definitely an essential characteristic of those who pursue the MD/PhD career pathway. I think it is great you are already so ahead of the game!

I did research during high school through a young scholars program and found that I really enjoyed doing experiments to investigate questions. I highly recommend participating in such a program if one is available to you.

You might also want to volunteer at a hospital or clinic to learn what medicine is like (if you don't already have this experience).

Oh and Qof Quimica said, being a nerd does become much cooler once you get to college. Moreover, it becomes downright awesome when you get to medical/graduate school! =)

 

[Maebea]

Here are the undergrad institutions that produced the most individuals who enrolled in MD-PhD programs in 2005:

20 Cornell
19 Hopkins
16 Harvard, Stanford
14 UC-Berkeley
13 UCSD, Yale
11 Princeton, UCLA, U Penn, Wisconsin-Madison, Washington University in St. Louis
10 Duke
9 MIT
7 Brown, Chicago, Michigan
6 BYU, Case-Western, Dartmouth, Davidson, Emory, Rice, Maryland-Baltimore County, Rochester, UVA
5 Carnegie-Mellon, UC-Davis, Illinois, Texas-Austin
4 Columbia, NYU, Rutgers, THE Ohio State, Arizona, UC-Irvine, U. Washington

(GFunk6- CalTech is traditionally not a huge supplier of MD-PhD marticulants; they average about 2 per year)

Do not place too much emphasis on these numbers. You should not just apply to the usual suspects, but find a school that is a good fit for you. Kenyon & Oberlin are two Ohio schools that usually send two or three students to MD-PhD programs every year (collectively as many as THE Ohio State, despite being about 1/20th the size). Small schools that emphasize close contact with faculty can provide you with an opportunity to get meaningful research exposure in your freshman year. (Davidson keeps company with the better-knowns Case, Dartmouth, Emory, Rice, UVA, and trumps Illinois, Columbia, NYU, etc.) If you choose a smaller schools, it would probably be a good idea to do a summer research fellowship at the NIH or one of the top med schools. Because a school like Davidson may not be well-known outside the region, a research experience at a nationally-recognized institution can help to establish your credentials in a "bigger pond."

You might want to contact Cliff Harding, an MD-PhDwho runs the MSTP at CWRU. He is a good guy and could give you some advice about the sort of preparation you should consider.

 

[CaipirinhaQuinho]

Ha, well I'm a girl, so meeting chicks really isn't on my agenda. And I've given up on all but one high school guy , most are just too immature. As for beer, not my thing.

I'd say I'm active enough anyway. Cross country, track, marching band, concert band, indoor drumline, JETS, Model UN, and the job I'll be working this summer. I'm just doing this stuff so that I know what will come.

And I think it is kind of pressing. Within 2 years I will have to figure out where I'm going for my undergrad.

Maybe I'm just trying to convince myself I'm not a nerd.

Of course i was only half serious. good luck with everything. btw, don't come to hopkins.

 

[Shatterstar17]

Maebea is right on all accounts. I came from Cornell (top of the list) and got some superb training, both in my classes and in my lab. All of the science at those big schools is geared toward cutting edge production of research and probably is a more accurate representation of what doing research for a living is like.

However, there are some fantastic opportunities at small liberal arts schools to develop some very valuable and close relationships with science faculty that run small but intimate labs. Really you should find a school that's a good fit for you (and has a good enough reputation). The science is almost always there, at least enough for your purposes as an undergrad, which should be to get good training, build a good bond with your mentor, and explore if the research lifestyle really could be for you.

Here are the undergrad institutions that produced the most individuals who enrolled in MD-PhD programs in 2005:

20 Cornell
19 Hopkins
16 Harvard, Stanford
14 UC-Berkeley
13 UCSD, Yale
11 Princeton, UCLA, U Penn, Wisconsin-Madison, Washington University in St. Louis
10 Duke
9 MIT
7 Brown, Chicago, Michigan
6 BYU, Case-Western, Dartmouth, Davidson, Emory, Rice, Maryland-Baltimore County, Rochester, UVA
5 Carnegie-Mellon, UC-Davis, Illinois, Texas-Austin
4 Columbia, NYU, Rutgers, THE Ohio State, Arizona, UC-Irvine, U. Washington

(GFunk6- CalTech is traditionally not a huge supplier of MD-PhD marticulants; they average about 2 per year)

Do not place too much emphasis on these numbers. You should not just apply to the usual suspects, but find a school that is a good fit for you. Kenyon & Oberlin are two Ohio schools that usually send two or three students to MD-PhD programs every year (collectively as many as THE Ohio State, despite being about 1/20th the size). Small schools that emphasize close contact with faculty can provide you with an opportunity to get meaningful research exposure in your freshman year. (Davidson keeps company with the better-knowns Case, Dartmouth, Emory, Rice, UVA, and trumps Illinois, Columbia, NYU, etc.) If you choose a smaller schools, it would probably be a good idea to do a summer research fellowship at the NIH or one of the top med schools. Because a school like Davidson may not be well-known outside the region, a research experience at a nationally-recognized institution can help to establish your credentials in a "bigger pond."

You might want to contact Cliff Harding, an MD-PhDwho runs the MSTP at CWRU. He is a good guy and could give you some advice about the sort of preparation you should consider.

 

[SeventhSon]

Do not feel obligated to major in the biological sciences. This is the last time in your life you will have to puruse a non-science releated subject in depth. Regardless, you will have to take the typical pre-med core. Please ask yourself this question, "If I don't get into med school or change my mind, will I be satsified with a degree from field X." Majoring in biological science doesn't offer you a whole lot of possibilities outside of med school/grad school.

i would have to disagree with this. While not true for MD-only, I think major is hugely important in MSTP, in that I think you definitely have an edge as an engineering major or maybe a math or physics major, and a non-sciece major (if not doubling) is definitely a disadvantage. A non-science major may allow you to develop other important skills (writing) but I would say to make that a secondary concern to a mastery of biological and physical sciences.

Your BS/PS mastery will show up on the MCAT* and it will be evident in the quality of your research. You can still gain adjunct skills like writing while being a science major.


*although some point out that humanities majors, on average, score better than bio majors on all sections of the MCAT, I think that once you start getting to the upper-echelon (13-14-15) scores, it is due to people who just have such complete immersion in these fields that everything that comes up on the passages is pretty familiar. I think it would be interesting to see the break-down.

 

[SeventhSon]

And I've given up on all but one high school guy , most are just too immature.

im graduating from college now and i've given up on girls, they are too immature.

As for beer, not my thing.

ohhh yes, it wasn't my thing in high school either

 

[QofQuimica]

*although some point out that humanities majors, on average, score better than bio majors on all sections of the MCAT, I think that once you start getting to the upper-echelon (13-14-15) scores, it is due to people who just have such complete immersion in these fields that everything that comes up on the passages is pretty familiar. I think it would be interesting to see the break-down.

It may just be a coincidence, but it's an interesting one: both lorelei (who also scored 43 on the MCAT) and I were double majors in science and foreign language. She did engineering (I think computers?) and German, and I did natural sciences and Spanish.

 

[runforfun529]

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[mjc48]

That seems pretty accurate. I think I would love Cornell if I could get in and be able to pay for it. Their marching band is pretty much the bomb and so are their sciences from what I hear. My two loves together at the same place. I'm thinking about maybe contacting someone there to find out more information.


Now, I'm almost set upon Biological, Biomedical, or Biochemical as my main focus for my undergrad. I'm almost positive that I will do more than that (minors/double major) however, I know that will be the main focus.

cornell is a great place to get an education in the sciences if you're prepared to work and interested in learning outside a classroom setting. a bit of advice specific to cornell--if you plan on going premed and would like to pursue basic or applied biological research, do not go the biomedical engineering route. the course work required of the degree is not conducive to building a high undergrad gpa for apps, and you won't really get the exposure you want to the basic sciences. biological engineering, on the other hand, offers a route that lets you pick a lot of your own courses and gain knowledge outside of circuits and thermodynamics.

 

[Neuronix]

It's hard to convince high school students of much of anything. There's a few reasons for this. First, a lot of people like to give you advice when you're in high school. Every one assumes they know what they're talking about, but the more conflicting advice you get the more you realize that not everyone knows what they're talking about. Second, people in their 30s and 40s are getting to the point where plenty has changed since they were your age. Their advice becomes less and less relevent about how to proceed in the near-term. Third, young people are very ambitious. That's ok, I am too. The best advice I can give you is pay attention to the people on this site. They are where you want to be and it hasn't been that long since most of us have been where you are now.

Well, thanks for everything in your first paragraph. I admit, being a nerd in High School isn't that fun, but when I get accepted to an Ivy League or equivalent school, everyone in my school can kiss my butt.

First, an Ivy League or "equivalent" isn't necessary to proceed towards your goal. I dropped out of high school when I was your age and I went to my state ugrad after a long fight to get in. Now, I'm a third year MD/PhD.

Anyways, don't be surprised when you get to college that the other students aren't going to be as motivated as you. I was surprised by this. There's going to be a lot of rich kids with every advantage who will do next to nothing and still suceed in life (see George W. Bush). You'll still be a nerd if you continue getting top grades and doing lots of ECs like research. Don't assume that college is going to be a good time and there's going to be alot of academics and social life involved. Some of the brightest high schoolers I knew fell off the track when they got to college. For some it was burn out. For others, they wanted to be a part of a social group. When your friends are doing their major in something easy, spending tons of money on their parents' dime, and getting drunk every night, it's hard not to let your grades slip.

As for talking to parents and guidance counselors, I talked to my parents about it, although they aren't supportive, nor are they unsupportive. They just say going to school until you are 30 is pointless if you aren't making over 100 grand when you come out. I said, what's the point of money if you like what you do? But I did ask my mom to talk to someone at Case, considering she is going there to finish her PhD in sociology. She said if she ever crosses paths with anyone in the medical field, she will ask them about any type of research/shadowing I could do there.

As a Sophomore in high school, relax. The shadowing people are going to let you do is very very limited, if at all. The so called volunteering and shadowing program at the hospital were I went to ugrad just took teens and had them do paperwork. Getting involved in research isn't a bad idea if you're serious about it. People will discount you quite a bit at first since you don't know much, but you have a chance to prove yourself in the right lab. As for money... Well, it's not just about money to consider that you won't be done till you're 30, but that's ok. You will think about that later.

As for going to a smaller college such as Oberlin, I don't think I would like it. Although the contact with faculty would be greater, I would feel unprepared for an MSTP program going to a school such as that. (not that it's a bad school, I'd just rather go to a school that sends a fair number of students into the program)

You're always going to be unprepared for a MSTP. No school sends a lot of students to MSTPs because they just aren't that big. I wouldn't discount smaller schools based on what you're saying.

I know, I know. Thanks for the luck. I may come to Hopkins =D

I've known at least a half-dozen people who went to Hopkins undergrad as pre-meds. None have recommended it. Certain undergrad programs that are well known for being pre-med schools are pressure cookers in the extreme. They take the job of weeding out a set of very determined undergraduates very seriously. When you're all beautiful flowers, the smallest imperfection makes you a weed. You make think: "good, I'll get rigorous preparation, the med schools will love me!" The problem with this is, when it comes down to it, the biggest factor to whether or not you get into med school will be your GPA. It will matter little what your major is or where you went to school. What will matter much more is whether you have a 3.9 vs. a 3.5. Take advantage of this fact when you select an undergrad and a major for your pre-med studies. It's not only for your competitiveness, it's also for your sanity. You want to get research experience (as much as possible!) and do ECs, so you don't want to be killing yourself in classes as well. This is a long haul, don't burn yourself out in undergrad.

Now these undergrad schools will tell you about their 90-100% rates of getting their undergrads into med school. The truth is, this is people they recommend. I've seen some stellar people from Hopkins who just didn't make the cut and ended up not getting the recommendations letter from the Hopkins pre-med committee. These people would probably have 4.0s in easier majors at other schools and have no problems. But, not having your committee's LOR is almost a kiss of death for med school admissions. One guy I know from Hopkins did make it to med school (with two nice acceptances), but only after going to another undergrad to get a letter from there.

As for MCAT scores, I have no idea what is good =P. Right now I'm more focused on PSAT, ACT, and SAT. I do have a feeling though that doing something in the MEDICAL or SCIENCE field would benefit more than HUMANITIES on a MEDICAL test such as that. If it doesn't, then I think they need to reconsider the format of the test.

The MCAT is a Medical College Admissions Test. It is not a medical test. Humanities majors actually do better on on the MCAT than any other group of majors. There's some reasons for this I won't go into and I really don't think it's necessarily that humanities prepares you better for the MCAT, but this brings up a good point.

Your undergraduate science work will be a good preparation for your PhD, NOT your MD. Medical school teaches you a very specialized set of knowledge that you don't learn (and undergrad schools actually try hard not to teach) in undergrad. I usually recommend to MD-bound students not to major in the Biological sciences, because diverse medical school committees are looking for more than the cookie cutter med school applicants for the top schools. That being said, if you're serious about MD/PhD I do think you should get a good scientific background.

All the crap they make you take for med school, you will almost never use in med school, and probably will never use as a doctor. This includes the vast majority of Biology and all of organic chemistry, chemistry, and physics. Medicine is an applied science, but not a science. Don't get the two confused, or you will be very frustrated (and I was in medical school). The sets of skills non-surgeon doctors use are more along the lines of social scientists. They need to communicate effectively with patients, do a physical exam, make a diagnosis, and prescribe a drug. You never need to know how to synthesize said drug or know its structure. You need to know set dosages and side effects. I could go on for pages about how undergrad biological sciences do not prepare you for med school, but I'll digress. Suffice it to say, your score on the MCAT depends on your knowledge of only a few classes and how much you prepare for the MCAT. Half of the test is based on your ability to reason based on what's given in the passages. When you get to medical school, most of this information will be gone from your brain.

Oooo, foreign language is fun. I love spanish too, although I don't think I could see myself majoring in it.

Here I think you're on the right track. A science major with a Spanish minor might be a good plan. There was a recent thread on pre-allo asking college grads what they would have done differently. The most common answer: "Study abroad!" I agree. I would also recommend for you to resist the urge to go to the biggest name undegrad you can find (unless they happen to give you big fin aid). Save yourself the debt! If you are going to be in school till you're 30, you don't want your undergrad loans hanging over your (and your children's!) heads.

I'm sure I'll get flamed for parts of this, so have at me. I have my pre-lim defense in 2 1/2 hours, so it can't get any worse.

 

[Maebea]

Neuronix-Great advice; you are starting to sound like an old guy. Hope your prelim goes well.

 

[SeventhSon]

hey neuronix, thank you so much for an insightful post, and feel free to make many more... all helpful, no rambling at all.. good luck on the prelim

 

[PostalWookie]

I think Neuronix said pretty much everything I wanted to say, and more. Let me just add something:

1) If you haven't tried research yet, don't say that you're set on doing an MD/PhD. I knew several people in high school and early in college who said they wanted to be a physician scientist. After actually doing some research, some fell in love with research so much they decided to just skip the MD, and the majority never wanted to do research again and dropped their PhD aspirations. Research is one of those things that you either love or hate, and it's very difficult to know whether you will still love it once you're in the lab and none of your experiments have worked for the past year. You can get some meaningful experiences doing research in high school if you look hard enough, just make sure that you find a mentor who can handle a high school student.

2) There is no university that will prepare you for an MSTP program. The only thing that can prepare you is doing lots of research in different types of labs. Pick a college that you will love and where you'll be challenged, and as long as it has some good researchers, you will be fine. Here is a list of where people in my class at UPenn MSTP did their undergrad:
MIT, Harvard x 2, Cornell, Yale x 2, Hopkins x 2, Penn x 2, Cornell x 2, Dartmouth, U Marlyand, U Alabama, U West Virginia, U Rochester, Duke, Emory, U Florida

The bottom line is that going to an Ivy leage school will not make you a more competitive MSTP applicant than someone from a state school.

 

[SirTony76]

If you want to have fun major in biomedical engineering and drink beer. It is the key to success in college.

 

[e_phn]

 

[Bluntman]

If you want to have fun major in biomedical engineering and drink beer. It is the key to success in college.

Word. You should probably smoke some bud as well.