high standards

[truthseeker]

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I have been reading and contributing to this forum for quite some time. I am disturbed by the recent number of posts asking what their chances are of getting into PT school and then posting their numbers.

When I was applying, the people with 3.0 and down just went somewhere else. I had a 3.4 with a 1300 GRE and was a certified athletic trainer and was scared. Now, people seem to think that there aren't any consequences to screwing off and getting poor grades, or getting hammered freshman and sophomore years.

To be a good physical therapist you need to be smart. Not only do you need to be smart, but you need to demonstrate your dedication and maturity by getting good grades. Then you need to be personable (many schools interview). If you don't have those things, do something else.

I am all for a big tent but if your grades are at 3.0 or lower, don't ask, your chances are slim unless you have very compelling circumstances.

If your GRE is below 1000, your chances are slim.

If you can't speak or write the language, your chances are slim.

If you don't know the first thing about current events affecting PT and healthcare, your chances are slim.

If you really want to be a PT, study, do your volunteer work, know about the profession, and pay attention to current events because the people that REALLY want it, are.

Chris Hovan defensive tackle who used to play for the Vikings was asked why he lifts weights so much. His reply was that whenever he wasn't lifting weights, it occured to him that his opponent might be.

It is competitive. If you can't compete and you know it, don't ask. Those with better resumes get in. Those with average or below average don't, simple as that.

 

[sierra54]

I couldn't agree more.

This is applicable to every profession and should be addressed in all high schools.

 

[DPT ATC]

thank god someone has finally said it! i've been wanting to for a long time. this site should be for discussion of current events, current literature, problems cases, in my opinion.

 

[WVUNaylor]

well hey, sorry truthseeker that I didn't have my life together at the age of 18 like you did or had an idea of what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, SO SORRY for being SUCH AN INCONVENIENCE to you and asking people for advice, and that maybe someone could relate to my situation. Your post seriously pisses me off, because your narrow minded and that everyone whose path didn't follow one(yours), you shouldn't be cut out for this field, I guess Im sorry of not having great grades starting out.

 

[truthseeker]

well hey, sorry truthseeker that I didn't have my life together at the age of 18 like you did or had an idea of what I wanted to do for the rest of my life, SO SORRY for being SUCH AN INCONVENIENCE to you and asking people for advice, and that maybe someone could relate to my situation. Your post seriously pisses me off, because your narrow minded and that everyone whose path didn't follow one(yours), you shouldn't be cut out for this field, I guess Im sorry of not having great grades starting out.

Politically correct gobbeldygook!!

I'm OK, You're OK. No one should ever be allowed to fail. No one should ever suffer the consequences of bad decisions.

Go ahead, tell us your story. Maybe I will change my mind. Why is it that you didn't get the grades?

If you say you didn't know what you wanted to do when you were 18 that's fine but you had to have some inkling that good grades would allow you to make choices that bad grades wouldn't.

If your parents never told you that, I'm sorry. I am sure that someone did. My post pissed you off because its the truth that you sadly ignored earlier in life.

I didn't have great grades starting out either. I got two c's my first semester. WAKE UP CALL!? If you didn't get the grades, either you weren't dedicated enough or you weren't smart enough. I can't dunk a basketball without a minitramp. That doesn't mean I should be able to play in the NBA just because I want to.

That's just pathetic.

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[WVUNaylor]

well here it is then, plain and simple. My girlfriend/engaged wife at the time in the middle of november swerved to miss a deer, and so did the car in oncoming traffic. The car in the oncoming traffic hit my girlfriend and pushed her in to a tree and she later passed away. It took me a very long time to get over her death, and some days im still not over it. I blew off school and just drank.
I am retaking classes now to make up for my lack of effort, I don't regret my bad grades. Im improving and one day I will prove you wrong.


so everyone is different you *******, quit being a dick.

 

[truthseeker]

I make stupid amounts of money. But I have known that I was in the wrong field for years, and it has only been recently that I discovered my true passion - PT. Thankfully I was so anal in university that I have the grades required to get me into the PT school of my choice. But it doesn't surprise me that not everyone is in the same boat. So why not try to help those people? Are they not worthy just because they may have had different priorities 5 years ago?

I don't see why we can't suggest to people with poor GRE scores some of the schools that don't require the GRE. Or for those who have slightly lower GPAs why can't we recommend some of the schools that have a reputation of focusing on the interview instead of stats? Or mention that many schools only look at the last 60 credit hours, so you can boost your GPA quite a bit by getting straight As in a single semester of university, which can be achieved by careful class selection (intro psych, intro to logic, etc).

My two cents

I have a couple points here. your first point, that you make stupid amounts of money, then go on to say that you were anal in university - do you see a correlation? Those who put in the work get ahead in our society. Those that don't put in the work and discipline have a harder time.

The second portion that I have quoted above is all true. But it has been said a thousand times. If you take your GRE 4 times and the best total you can get is 700, then it would make sense to try a school that doesn't ask for GREs. That said, is it possible that if your best score in three tries is 700 (just over half of many candidates) that maybe,just maybe, you don't have the stuff to be a PT or a doctor, or a lawyer?

I have a responsibility to my profession. If we are simply trying to be nice to everyone who wants to be a PT and let them all in, no matter what their history or performance or IQ or life experiences or whatever, then the quality of the professionals and therefore the profession will be diluted. If that happens, you will not be able to make any assumptions as to the intelligence and training of the PT (or any professional) you are seeing.

Look at the difference between how nursing and PT have handled their respective shortages. Nursing has allowed people to get through with their LPN in less than2 years or their RN in 2 years in order to put people out there in the workforce. I personally have witnessed nurses that I can't believe are professionals at all. No critical thinking, no work ethic, don't know what meds do that they are giving their patients etc. . .

PT has raised their standardsmoving from a certificate to a bachelors to a masters and now a doctorate. There is still a shortage but there are very few PTs who can't solve a problem and think critically.

Yes there are people who have had extenuating circumstances. There are people who are dyslexic, I get that. But when the poor performance has to do with decisions and behaviors and people want a pass and to be allowed access to something that I have worked hard to get it pisses ME off.

Do you want your doctor to bethe oneadmitted to medical school with substandard scores/grades/skills just because they really, really wanted to be a doctor? NO.

Do you want your doctor to be the one that got in because they had a 3.8 GPA because they took "intro to psych, intro to logic etc . . ." NO

Do you want your divorce lawyer to be the one who was admitted because they went to a school that didn't require the LSAT? NO.

Do you want to go to a PT who got a 2.97 GPA, partied their first 4 semesters to be the one to identify that your back pain is not mechanical but instead, related to a tumor? Resounding NO!

There is a reason the bar is set high. It is because people depend on us to be able to solve problems, think critically, and recognize when the problem is out of our scope of practice. Those who do not demonstrate good, strike that, excellent academic skill are eliminated from contention for a reason.

Lets just all hug and let everyone be what they want to be without any criteria whatsoever.

 

[truthseeker]

well here it is then, plain and simple. My girlfriend/engaged wife at the time in the middle of november swerved to miss a deer, and so did the car in oncoming traffic. The car in the oncoming traffic hit my girlfriend and pushed her in to a tree and she later passed away. It took me a very long time to get over her death, and some days im still not over it. I blew off school and just drank.
I am retaking classes now to make up for my lack of effort, I don't regret my bad grades. Im improving and one day I will prove you wrong.


so everyone is different you *******, quit being a dick.

I am very sorry, that must have been horrible. I am not saying everyone should be like me. I just think that there are hoops that everyone needs to jump through. If we eliminate the hoops then it diminishes the value of what is at the end of the journey.

Best of luck to you.

 

[MJHUSKERS]

First off, I just want to congratulate Truthseeker for all his contribution to these forums, what an honor. Sorry to hear you're disturbed.

This is a forum...you can say whatever you want or feel like saying. I find it amusing that Truthseeker has enough time to be concerned and upset with people on a internet forum. So much that he will go out of his way to start a post just because of them. I already feel like I'm wasting my time writing this. Get a life, and maybe I should too.

Truthseeker...Mr. Tough guy

Chris Hovan... what an inspiration.

 

[truthseeker]

First off, I just want to congratulate Truthseeker for all his contribution to these forums, what an honor. Sorry to hear you're disturbed.

This is a forum...you can say whatever you want or feel like saying. I find it amusing that Truthseeker has enough time to be concerned and upset with people on a internet forum. So much that he will go out of his way to start a post just because of them. I already feel like I'm wasting my time writing this. Get a life, and maybe I should too.

Truthseeker...Mr. Tough guy

Chris Hovan... what an inspiration.

I started the thread because it seems that half of the threads have to do with people wanting to know if they "have a chance" to get in or "what can I do" or whatever and most of it has to do with the bed they made. Or in WVU's case a horrible circumstance.

I am not trying to be mr. toughguy, i am just making a point.

ABout Chris Hovan, yeah, he is not really a lofty inspirational character but what he said was simple and the truth. If you are in a competitive field, you better be ready to compete because someone else is.

If you can't challenge the message, dismiss the messenger. Typical.

 

[hopingtobePT]

As one of the aforementioned posters who want to know their chances, I am sorry to have bothered anyone.

I have a 3.0
I have a 1000 on the GRE.

BUT those are the minimums so I wanted to see if people had any input/suggestions what I could do get accepted, to beat out people with better stats than me.

I didn't "goof" around, I didn't "get wasted", and I didn't have anything tragic happen to me.

I work my way though school, study hard, study long hours, and just get B's. I'm certainly not going to claim to be the most intelligent person here, but a B does not mean I did not work hard. I go to a very rigorous undergrad and am proud of my B's.

I guess what I am trying to say is that yes high standards are important. But what you consider "standards" is honestly relative. Different schools value different things, different people value different things. I've been in class many times with students who cheat their way through and get the A, when i bust it and only get a B.

Life isn't a race to the top. I'd much rather have a PT who understands a challenge and worked hard to earn their grades, than someone who sat alone at night studying for hours to earn a 4.0 and has no social skills and cannot deal with life when it doesnt go 'according to plan'.

Okay, i wrote much more than I wanted. But it really is a slap in the face to have someone tell you not to post something because it annoys them.

Don't read it then. When your patient makes a mistake or doesn't do their HEP, you'll give up on them too? NO.

 

[ksiem]

This sounds like a good ol' republican vs. democrat debate.. on one side we have the American Dream and how anyone can work hard to achieve whatever they want to despite the circumstances. Then we have another who is trying to make up for not seeking the "American Dream." Truthseeker you have a point but you have made too many generalizations. It is true that probably a lot of the people who ask, "will my 700 gre score be enough for PT school" are probably lazy and don't really want it bad enough. However, there are those that have gone through things in life that you couldn't even DREAM of or maybe they were not raised with the same motivations the parents and friends around you provided. Whatever the case may be.. stop judging.. I understand that some people are insulting to the PT profession by trying to get in by squeezing through a half open door.. but I also understand that some people are insulting the PT profession for pointing and laughing.

 

[_FNG_]

I don't care what you're GPA, GRE, etc is but if you're only luke-warm about physical therapy then find another career path. Same as other professions, the ones who really care for their practice and seek to always make improvements are the ones that give PT a good name and vice-versa.

The transition of PT from a bachelor->Masters->doctoral hopefully has helped decrease the number of people thinking "eh, PT sounds kinda cool, I'll give a try".

If you really feel a call than don't let anything stop you from achieving your goals, simple enough. When I was done in the Army, my Captain gave me some of the best advice ever, he said "set your compass towards your goals and don't worry about how long it takes to achieve them".

 

[Danae00]

.

 

[crockdub]

If only there were a way to not read the "what are my chances thread" for those that don't like them.

oh wait...just don't open them. There's no need to bring others down.

 

[black]

What are my chances threads are ridiculous, I only look at them to see if my stats are better.

Instead of saying what are my chances maybe they should be worded into advice threads. If you're worried about getting in maybe you should take another year to improve your stats.

For example (not mine but hypothetical):

GPA 3.2
GRE 1000 A 4.0
Hours 10

I've been retaking the classes I received below a B in and have an opportunity at an outpatient clinic for another 30 hours what else should I focus on?

Answer being...

Study for the GRE and try to retake it sending it to the 4 schools of your choice (it costs 20 dollars per school anyway). Focus on areas you feel you struggled in before. Good job on retaking classes I would advise to set up more hour experiences in other setting besides outpatient ortho (I'm assuming) pediatrics or neuro come to mind as areas to explore.

If you're asking do you think I can get in, the response is simple. Do you meet the minimum requirements? If yes then you have a shot at getting in, however if you can improve in certain areas your chance goes up.

 

[artizzle]

This is a great thread and I totally agree with black. The forum isn't an admissions board, so we can't tell you your chances of getting into a school. But we can provide advice, so that your next experience with a real admission board will be better than before.

 

[lee9786]

WVU's accepted students had a cumulative GPA of 3.6 out of ~30 students according to PTCAS. Not every school puts such an emphasis on GPA. There was a guy asking me about going the PT route. He had issues going on I guess and pretty much barely passed early on with Ds. I told him going the PTA route might be the better option for now and then work for the PT later after showing some success in his academics.

 

[DPT ATC]

why does every single person have to start their own thread to ask "What are my chances?" the advice is almost the same every single time. meet the school's minimums, retake classes if you have to, do better on the GREs, write a good essay...blah blah blah

i agree with truthseeker. i wouldn't want my heart transplant surgeon or neurosurgeon to have a 2.9 GPA and be asking how they can squeak their way into medical school. same for a PT. there's already too many bad PTs out there, we don't need any more.

 

[SunDevilDoc]

OP is over-reacting like a crazy person. It isn't hard to get interviews at least, I got a 900 and I have an interview at Miami, as well as 5 other schools.
Chill out mr. super serial man.

 

[lee9786]

Truthseeker makes a valid points. Most schools I've seen have around a 1/3 rate of acceptance. So ~33% of applicants get accepted which from my perspective is pretty competitive. A GPA under 3.0 makes it tough when most people have ~ a 3.4-3.5. Just presenting the facts. The profession is in transition now looking for scientific-minded practitioners that aren't simply going into it for the cozy 9-5 and passion to work with injured athletes.

All eyes are on the new DPTs. They will be driving whether or not this profession evolves or disinegrates. The evolution and utilization of evidence-based practice is going to be required and can very well determine whether or not you get paid. If the new DPTs don't show competence with differential diagnosis then compensation for direct access it will never come to be.

I can understand why the GPA standard is high. Most the time GPA is a measure of determination rather than intelligence. GPA is associated with ones ability to pay attention to detail. It could also suggest someone is a self learner which is a requirement in the profession. So the GPA criteria does have merit.

So SunDevil how did your interviews go? I see your premed.

 

[vinganca]

The OP seems to be labouring under the ludicrous misapprehension that s/he is in a place to judge his/her peers. 🙄 There are few things more obnoxious than "armchair adcoms".

I suggest that "truthseeker" redirect his/her attention and scrutiny inward--there is clearly much work to be done.

 

[truthseeker]

The OP seems to be labouring under the ludicrous misapprehension that s/he is in a place to judge his/her peers. 🙄 There are few things more obnoxious than "armchair adcoms".

I suggest that "truthseeker" redirect his/her attention and scrutiny inward--there is clearly much work to be done.

I am chastened. I can't tell you all how sorry I am. I really have seen the light. You are right. I should not judge others. No one should.

In fact, everyone should be thought of as equal, no matter who they are, or what they do, or what their applications look like. Its not fair to compare one person's application to another. Its not fair for those who have lower scores or grades to be unfairly compared to those with higher scores or grades. They probably cheated to get the higher grades anyway, or got some unfair tutoring, or got favoritism or preferential seating at the GRE exam.

Those jerks that are on the committees that accept or refuse admittance to the applicants can take their criteria and shove it you know where!!

Its crap how people are pitted against one another! Why can't we all just get along!


OK all the crap aside, there are people that have tragic stories. Tell the stories when you submit your application. But don't sit on your computers and ask if a 700 GRE is good, or ask if a 2.97 GPA is good, or ask how bad Ds and Fs look on your transcripts!!

Better yet, the people that respond to the posts with the pollyanna , "you can do it"s and "keep on tryin' " and "never give up"s
those are all wonderful sentiments but don't you think that at some point somebody needs to tell them to move on?

Come on people, do you really not know the answer to these questions????

If you don't, I can tell you that your thinking skills are probably not going to get you into grad school.

On American Idol, some people love Simon Cowell and some hate him but people recognize that he tells people what they need to hear. Its funny that those people that get booted seem to think he is a jerk and a crackpot and that he doesn't know what he is talking about but those that advance to the next round consider his advice helpful. The point is, some people need to be told that they can't sing. They have been told all of their lives by their mom or their best friend that they are really good. When in reality, they are not really very talented at all.

 

[Muscles00GT]

I hate this whole numbers game. Everyone has their own personal story. We all go to different schools with different majors in different programs. Some science programs are easier than others. What's the difference between a 3.8 at a no name, small school and a 2.8 at a big name school? Probably not much...(broad analogy, i know but you get the picture). I believe the biggest testament to an individuals character is his or her ability to get involved. Get out there, gain experience and meet new people...develop great social skills and you'll be fine. This doesn't mean to totally disregard grades, but if you have a good head on your shoulder with great experience, you'll be just fine. Confidence is everything. 👍