High Stats Put You At Disadvantage?

[NonTradHopeful]

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Hey guys,

I was curious. Schools like Howard and Meharry have average DAT scores of ~17 and average GPAs around 3.0-3.1.

I have a DAT score of 21/21/25 (AA/TS/PAT) and a GPA of 3.6 (overall) and 3.7 (science). Would my high(er) stats put me at a disadvantage when applying to these schools? It almost seems like they prefer students with lower stats from disadvantaged backgrounds OVER students with better stats.

So, what do you guys think? Does applying to schools like these with good (or higher than avg) stats put you at a disadvantage if you're trying to get accepted to these schools?

I think this would make for an interesting discussion.

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

Are you an URM?

All discussion is void if you aren't...

 

[Tunaman]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

 

[bing12]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

reason for rejection

your friend shouldnt have applied being a non-URM.

 

[AwesomeTeeth]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

Just because you got an interview doesn't mean you're guaranteed acceptance. I want to see him pursue legal action. Sounds like he's pretty well off if his family can afford to pursue legal action just to prove a point 😉

Again, he was wasting his time from the beginning since he wasn't URM.

 

[wired202808]

Hey guys,

I was curious. Schools like Howard and Meharry have average DAT scores of ~17 and average GPAs around 3.0-3.1.

I have a DAT score of 21/21/25 (AA/TS/PAT) and a GPA of 3.6 (overall) and 3.7 (science). Would my high(er) stats put me at a disadvantage when applying to these schools? It almost seems like they prefer students with lower stats from disadvantaged backgrounds OVER students with better stats.

So, what do you guys think? Does applying to schools like these with good (or higher than avg) stats put you at a disadvantage if you're trying to get accepted to these schools?

I think this would make for an interesting discussion.

lol schools dont have to accept anyone. They aren't obligated and if they were sued they would simply state that while the applicant had awesome stats they didnt like his LORs, background, etc. Its like trying to sue employer that didn't hire you, even though you met the requirements. Tell your "friend" to calm down and focus on Tufts.

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

And what would this point be lol? Was this person unaware that Howard is a HBCU?

The things you hear about on on SDN....

 

[Ukee]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

Legal action for getting rejected from a private school hmmm

 

[doc toothache]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

Unless he is underage, it is not clear why it is his "family is considering legal action". What exactly is the "point" that needs to be proven other than the willingness to spend in the six figures, interrupt his education for depositions, court appearance?

 

[NonTradHopeful]

Great Point! My friend lives in washington and threw howard on his list for some unknown reason. He was interviewed and rejected with DAT 22:22:23 and GPA 3.5. Plenty of EC's and Shadowing. Oh yea, he wasnt a URM. His family was considering legal action just to prove a point. Nonetheless; he'll be attending Tufts in the fall

Yeah, suing is useless and pointless. It'll get nowhere. FYI, I'm not considered an URM.

My point in posting this wasn't to get into a conversation about URMs and all that mess. It was to try to see if there is a trend of people with good stats being at a disadvantage if they apply to schools with historically low stats....

....personally, I think students with good stats ARE at a disadvantage if they apply to schools like Howard or Meharry.

I'd love any incite from somebody who disagrees?

 

[Jackson-Ave-Dental]

Yeah, suing is useless and pointless. It'll get nowhere. FYI, I'm not considered an URM.

My point in posting this wasn't to get into a conversation about URMs and all that mess. It was to try to see if there is a trend of people with good stats being at a disadvantage if they apply to schools with historically low stats....

....personally, I think students with good stats ARE at a disadvantage if they apply to schools like Howard or Meharry.

I'd love any incite from somebody who disagrees?

I think you're using a bad example... You should choose a school that does not use race as the preliminary screening before they use gpa and dat to select applicants.

 

[doc toothache]

My point in posting this wasn't to get into a conversation about URMs and all that mess. It was to try to see if there is a trend of people with good stats being at a disadvantage if they apply to schools with historically low stats....
....personally, I think students with good stats ARE at a disadvantage if they apply to schools like Howard or Meharry.

Why in the world would any school turn down applicants with high stats who otherwise meet all of the criteria for admission?

 

[DentalJedi]

I've heard rumors of BU doing that, but I doubt it's true. I don't think dental schools get their feelings hurt if you turn them down, and they are going to fill up their seats regardless so there's really no reason why they would do that.

 

[youknowthedrill]

Good stats but no personality = rejection from most schools.

 

[Kentuckylover]

bad stats + hispanic/african american/ or from hawaii/alaska = STILL GOOD SHOTS.

I know it sucks...

 

[doc toothache]

bad stats + hispanic/african american/ or from hawaii/alaska = STILL GOOD SHOTS.I know it sucks...

This must come as a surprise to the 429 African Americans, 496 Hispanics, 261 American Indians/Alaska Natives and the 70 Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders who were not accepted for the 2010 entering class not to mention the lower applicant/enrollees ratio enjoyed by African Americans, American Indians/Alaska Natives and Asians.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=503758
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=563953

 

[Seamonkey Doc]

This must come as a surprise to the 429 African Americans, 496 Hispanics, 261 American Indians/Alaska Natives and the 70 Native Hawaiians/Pacific Islanders who were not accepted for the 2010 entering class not to mention the lower applicant/enrollees ratio enjoyed by African Americans, American Indians/Alaska Natives and Asians.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=503758
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=563953

👍

Meharry and Howard are HBCU's (Historically Black College and University) and they tell you clearly that coming from an underrepresented race is a huge factor for them. If you have great stats, and don't agree with their selection method, you can apply to a variety of schools and probably get accepted to one or more of them. It seems silly to get upset about this.

 

[NonTradHopeful]

👍

Meharry and Howard are HBCU's (Historically Black College and University) and they tell you clearly that coming from an underrepresented race is a huge factor for them. If you have great stats, and don't agree with their selection method, you can apply to a variety of schools and probably get accepted to one or more of them. It seems silly to get upset about this.

I'm not getting upset about it at all.

All I was asking was whether or not this trend was the case, and if not, what the real trends were. Doctoothache did a great job in providing us with the relevant data (as always).

I posted this as more of a curious discussion, rather than a subject for people to get upset over.

Thanks for all the responses, guys.

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

3.9 GPA, 23AA.

I didn't get an interview from BU.

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

3.9 GPA, 23AA.

I didn't get an interview from BU.

Same stats. Same result. It's a freakin lottery.

 

[dskies]

3.9 GPA, 23AA.

I didn't get an interview from BU.

this is a much better example of high stats=less chance at lower(ish) stats school..

 

[doc toothache]

this is a much better example of high stats=less chance at lower(ish) stats school..

Maybe. There is an erroneous presumption that high stats is all it takes to get an interview/acceptance.

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

Maybe. There is an erroneous presumption that high stats is all it takes to get an interview/acceptance.

I think I had "what it takes", besides grades and DAT scores, considering that I was accepted to each school I interviewed at and I've put in significant effort in my undergrad to expose myself to a variety of things outside of school.

I only raised myself as an example because I was actually interested in seeing BU, despite their efforts to ignore me. I even had to call BU to have them give me their supplemental. I even called the school to inquire about my application and show interest. In the end it was a waste of money and effort, unfortunately.

 

[wired202808]

I think I had "what it takes", besides grades and DAT scores, considering that I was accepted to each school I interviewed at and I've put in significant effort in my undergrad to expose myself to a variety of things outside of school.

I only raised myself as an example because I was actually interested in seeing BU, despite their efforts to ignore me. I even had to call BU to have them give me their supplemental. I even called the school to inquire about my application and show interest. In the end it was a waste of money and effort, unfortunately.

You're Canadian if you were a US citizen more schools would have invited and accepted you.

I dont believe doc's retoric most of the time high stats is exactly what you need. Id rather be the 3.7 and 22AA guy than someone lower. I got in with lower stats but higher stats almost always take the cake.

 

[wwuviking]

I've heard that some schools who typically have lower stats than some others typically accept students that are more likely to matriculate to that school. For instance, someone who has a 4.0 and a great DAT is more likely to attend a "better" school...than a newer more expensive school..don't know if its true but it kinda makes some sense

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

You're Canadian if you were a US citizen more schools would have invited and accepted you.

I dont believe doc's retoric most of the time high stats is exactly what you need. Id rather be the 3.7 and 22AA guy than someone lower. I got in with lower stats but higher stats almost always take the cake.

The flaw in that argument is that Boston is a private school that accepts many Canadians a year. Canadians with a 3.50 GPA and 20 DAT have a better chance of getting interviewed by a school like Boston, since it matches well with their class make up.

They can only interview a limited number of people a year, and would rather interview someone who would likely accept their offer, rather than using them as a back up. The dentist I shadowed talked to someone on BU adcom, and he was told that around half of the applicants that were offered an interview there decided they didn't wanna go.

With a 3.90 GPA and 23 AA, they would expect the applicant to receive multiple acceptances, including places like Penn, and therefore Boston would just waste their time interviewing them. Just food for thought, for the 2010 entering class, the highest DAT was 22. This shows that students with higher DATs would probably accept an offer elsewhere.

But let's be honest, with all the things that has been said about Boston on SDN (especially by current or former students), I'm sure cleanup would have put Boston at or near the bottom of his wanted list.

 

[wired202808]

The flaw in that argument is that Boston is a private school that accepts many Canadians a year. Canadians with a 3.50 GPA and 20 DAT have a better chance of getting interviewed by a school like Boston, since it matches well with their class make up.

They can only interview a limited number of people a year, and would rather interview someone who would likely accept their offer, rather than using them as a back up. The dentist I shadowed talked to someone on BU adcom, and he was told that around half of the applicants that were offered an interview there decided they didn't wanna go.

With a 3.90 GPA and 23 AA, they would expect the applicant to receive multiple acceptances, including places like Penn, and therefore Boston would just waste their time interviewing them. Just food for thought, for the 2010 entering class, the highest DAT was 22. This shows that students with higher DATs would probably accept an offer elsewhere.

But let's be honest, with all the things that has been said about Boston on SDN (especially by current or former students), I'm sure cleanup would have put Boston at or near the bottom of his wanted list.

I wasn't referring to BU in particular, I meant that in general he would have received more interviews and acceptances from all other schools and he could have applied more broadly with greater success

Either way, BU or no BU, a 3.9 and a 21 or 22AA guarantees you at least one spot somewhere. And its much better than having a 3.2 and a 20AA and crossing your fingers to get into LECOM or USC.

 

[doc toothache]

I think I had "what it takes", besides grades and DAT scores, considering that I was accepted to each school I interviewed at and I've put in significant effort in my undergrad to expose myself to a variety of things outside of school.
I only raised myself as an example because I was actually interested in seeing BU, despite their efforts to ignore me. I even had to call BU to have them give me their supplemental. I even called the school to inquire about my application and show interest. In the end it was a waste of money and effort, unfortunately.

Apparently the adcoms in question had a different conclusion.

 

[phy241]

I never got an interview from BU either (haven't heard back from them ever since I submitted some online supplementary app, which was I think end of October), and I think my app was pretty good overall. There's a few other ppl on SDN who faced the same situation. Just out of curiously, what did they say to you when you asked them about your app status?

I think Albino provides a pretty logical answer as to why they sometimes don't get back to candidates with higher stats. There's only so many ppl they can interview and they would obviously like to make sure that they have a full class at the end of the day

I think I had "what it takes", besides grades and DAT scores, considering that I was accepted to each school I interviewed at and I've put in significant effort in my undergrad to expose myself to a variety of things outside of school.

I only raised myself as an example because I was actually interested in seeing BU, despite their efforts to ignore me. I even had to call BU to have them give me their supplemental. I even called the school to inquire about my application and show interest. In the end it was a waste of money and effort, unfortunately.

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

Apparently the adcoms in question had a different conclusion.

Yes, it's true. The adcom at BU aims at mediocrity.

His high achieving ways showed that he did not have "what it takes".

 

[doc toothache]

Yes, it's true. The adcom at BU aims at mediocrity. His high achieving ways showed that he did not have "what it takes".

Or, it could be that they prefer "mediocrity" over arrogance.

 

[dru180]

Why in the world would any school turn down applicants with high stats who otherwise meet all of the criteria for admission?

Lets throw out the idea of singling out one person who was using himself as an example and add a 'hypothetical applicant'. Lets say that on paper this 'hypothetical applicant' had everything that BU was looking for as far as his application as a whole, except his stats were significantly higher than their previous 5 or so class years (lets say he has a 3.95 26/26/26).

Don't you think that there is a possibility that they might choose to not interview this applicant based only off his high 'stats'?
Dont you think there might be a chance that they think the time/money invested in this applicant wouldn't have a high enough probability of matriculation to make it worth the investment?
In fact, dont you think that because this hypothetical applicant's stats are so high, based off them alone he doesn't fit the 'qualified' applicant you speak of?


There are plenty examples in the real world where companies, businesses, etc pass over applicants that are over qualified because they dont think they will retain them, making it a poor R.O.I.

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

Or, it could be that they prefer "mediocrity" over arrogance.

I know that I would come across that way, especially to someone who knows arrogance as well as you, Doc Toothache. Nevertheless, you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who thinks that my application doesn't match up to the standards of BU.

 

[HeyCharlie]

The most ******ed schools rejected me without interviews while the most prestigious ones accepted me. Go figure. I'm glad I wasn't a cheap ******... I would've only applied to the ******ed schools and be sitting here now with a deer-in-headlights look. Instead I'm sitting here looking good, feeling chilled, attracting more girls at school lol, more confident and cocky too, thinking about my next date, and planning my next vacation overseas. Life is good..

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

Or, it could be that they prefer "mediocrity" over arrogance.

You're alone on this one, Doc. 😉

 

[wired202808]

I know that I would come across that way, especially to someone who knows arrogance as well as you, Doc Toothache. Nevertheless, you'll be hard-pressed to find someone who thinks that my application doesn't match up to the standards of BU.

Im in Albino on this one. You're above and beyond BU's standards and thats probably why they dont want to interview you. Its like the hot chick at the bar... you know shes too good for you and while it makes sense to try to speak with her. 9 times out of 10, you'll go home alone... so why bother lol They know you'll turn em down and they'd rather interview the desperate folks that need them.

I dont see why you would care as much about them since they're not the greatest of schools in the first place. You should probably be happy that they didn't bother calling you. 🙂

 

[HeyCharlie]

Im in Albino on this one. You're above and beyond BU's standards and thats probably why they dont want to interview you. Its like the hot chick at the bar... you know shes too good for you and while it makes sense to try to speak with her. 9 times out of 10, you'll go home alone... so why bother lol They know you'll turn em down and they'd rather interview the desperate folks that need them.

I dont see why you would care as much about them since they're not the greatest of schools in the first place. You should probably be happy that they didn't bother calling you. 🙂

For me it's 10 times out of 10 I go home alone. At least you guys score 10% of the times 😡

 

[BobLoblawDDS]

I dont see why you would care as much about them since they're not the greatest of schools in the first place. You should probably be happy that they didn't bother calling you. 🙂

I'm not saying that I care about the school or really want to go there right now. I was just commenting on the topic at hand. Just trying to suggest that schools DO set aside applicants for reasons other than deficient grades or ill aptitude. Schools look for applicants that fit their "profile" or ideal student. This not only means satisfying minimums (like grades and DATs) but also demonstrating interest in rural practice, or academics/research, or not looking too much like a medical applicant, being from a certain region, etc. Tabling an applicant for being "overqualified" is really just saying that the applicant isn't likely the type of person who a) would want to attend b) the school would want in the first place or c) would fit in here. And those things are really all the same thing: reasons to NOT give the applicant a chance. Just saying that exceeding certain quantitative parameters like GPA brackets and DAT scores can be just as legitimate of a reason for ignoring an applicant as failing to meet them.

 

[AlbinoPolarBear]

For me it's 10 times out of 10 I go home alone. At least you guys score 10% of the times 😡

At clubs, it's easier to hit on girls than at a bar, that's for sure. I have this friend and we call him the "grind machine". He would go to a group of girls, and he would grind on one until she pushes him away, and then go on and grind her adjacent friend. He repeats this until he grinds just about every girl in the club.

Sometimes he takes one home. 100% of the girls he brought home has been either:

1) recently dumped by their boyfriends, or
2) single mothers

and this guy shows them the love they desperately need.

Anyways, I don't mean to offend anyone at Boston. It's a great school that will give you your DMD. I was just frustrated that Boston rejected me after pouring my heart out to them on that supplemental.

 

[HeyCharlie]

At clubs, it's easier to hit on girls than at a bar, that's for sure. I have this friend and we call him the "grind machine". He would go to a group of girls, and he would grind on one until she pushes him away, and then go on and grind her adjacent friend. He repeats this until he grinds just about every girl in the club.

Sometimes he takes one home. 100% of the girls he brought home has been either:

1) recently dumped by their boyfriends, or
2) single mothers

and this guy shows them the love they desperately need.

Anyways, I don't mean to offend anyone at Boston. It's a great school that will give you your DMD. I was just frustrated that Boston rejected me after pouring my heart out to them on that supplemental.

Grind Machine. Vintage.

At least he gets to go home with someone less than 1% of the times while making physical contact with every female in the joint. Instead I go home with someone 0% of the times. Still unfair.

 

[wired202808]

I'm not saying that I care about the school or really want to go there right now. I was just commenting on the topic at hand. Just trying to suggest that schools DO set aside applicants for reasons other than deficient grades or ill aptitude. Schools look for applicants that fit their "profile" or ideal student. This not only means satisfying minimums (like grades and DATs) but also demonstrating interest in rural practice, or academics/research, or not looking too much like a medical applicant, being from a certain region, etc. Tabling an applicant for being "overqualified" is really just saying that the applicant isn't likely the type of person who a) would want to attend b) the school would want in the first place or c) would fit in here. And those things are really all the same thing: the wrong choice. Just saying that exceeding certain quantitative parameters like GPA brackets and DAT scores can be just as legitimate of a reason for ignoring an applicant as failing to meet them.

Well of course schools look at applicants from a certain perspective, but as a whole its always better to have higher stats and ensure acceptance somewhere vs. nowhere. Just like its always better to be tall than short.

I think most private schools, obv BU excluded, are easier to get into with higher stats regardless of when you apply in the cycle. What I really learned from this cycle is that state schools, from all over the nation, are much tougher to get into and your chances truly decrease if you apply late. That's the only thing that kind of sucks. I feel like an acceptance at the big private schools like NYU, Case, Tufts, Midwestern is a lot easier to secure than UMDNJ, Temple, Stony Brook, etc. Meaning public schools accepted majority of their students from the pre-Dec 1 pool. Meanwhile schools like NYU, Case, Midwestern are throwing acceptances to anyone and seeing what's sticking and what's not. Thats the most interesting phenomenon that i've witnessed this cycle.

 

[1800RAW]

Why in the world would any school turn down applicants with high stats who otherwise meet all of the criteria for admission?

Its impossible to say unless you're an adcom because, as you said, dental schools do not lay out ALL criteria for admissions

 

[doc toothache]

There are plenty examples in the real world where companies, businesses, etc pass over applicants that are over qualified because they dont think they will retain them, making it a poor R.O.I.

Equating retention in a business environment and professional schools is quite different since, with the latter retention is not an issue.

Don't you think that there is a possibility that they might choose to not interview this applicant based only off his high 'stats'?
Dont you think there might be a chance that they think the time/money invested in this applicant wouldn't have a high enough probability of matriculation to make it worth the investment?
In fact, dont you think that because this hypothetical applicant's stats are so high, based off them alone he doesn't fit the 'qualified' applicant you speak of?

Maybe they learned their lesson from experiences with "over qualified" applicants and those experiences may have had little to do with declining an offer.

You're alone on this one, Doc. 😉

There are actually 8 other schools besides BU that were equally unimpressed.

They can only interview a limited number of people a year, and would rather interview someone who would likely accept their offer, rather than using them as a back up. The dentist I shadowed talked to someone on BU adcom, and he was told that around half of the applicants that were offered an interview there decided they didn't wanna go.
With a 3.90 GPA and 23 AA, they would expect the applicant to receive multiple acceptances, including places like Penn, and therefore Boston would just waste their time interviewing them. Just food for thought, for the 2010 entering class, the highest DAT was 22. This shows that students with higher DATs would probably accept an offer elsewhere.

All ds are likely to interview at least a sufficient number of applicants to make a class. Predicting who of those interviewed is likely to accept an offer is probably a risky business and it is unlikely that it is foremost on the minds of adcoms. With roughly only 100 out of 12000 applicants with DAT scores of 23 and above, it is no surprise that there were none with DAT scores higher 22.

 

[dru180]

Well dont take it out on the horse!

Equating retention in a business environment and professional schools is quite different since, with the latter retention is not an issue.

If you take it that way, its not a perfect analogy. I think we both know I wasn't referring to post-matriculation retention though. The concept remains the same. Its still valid.

Maybe they learned their lesson from experiences with "over qualified" applicants and those experiences may have had little to do with declining an offer.

That is a possibility. However, that still supports my position. It still makes your assumption (that a school would never turn down an applicant with high stats, just because of his high stats) false (or at best inaccurate).


I'm not saying it happens often (or even rarely), but it is plausible that an applicant could be looked over for no other reason than his stats were 'too high'.