High step 2 make any difference?

[Melkor]

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For an osteopathic 3rd year student with a 257 step 1 applying to MD only residencies this year, what step 2 score, if any, would be needed to open up more interview doors? I was thinking once you get into the 270+ range it might be high enough to give you that "wow" factor but even then it might not make any real difference (vs upper 250s-260s)... I've got the rest of my app all squared away so no need to mention how doing xyz would be a better ROI than trying to shoot for 270+. Thanks!

 

[iatros]

For an osteopathic 3rd year student with a 257 step 1 applying to MD only residencies this year, what step 2 score, if any, would be needed to open up more interview doors? I was thinking once you get into the 270+ range it might be high enough to give you that "wow" factor but even then it might not make any real difference (vs upper 250s-260s)... I've got the rest of my app all squared away so no need to mention how doing xyz would be a better ROI than trying to shoot for 270+. Thanks!

You have no chance of going anywhere with a 257. You should look into teaching at the local community college.

And your obvious humblebrag is obvious.

 

[DrBowtie]

You'll get interviews at the top places that interview DO students already with your step 1. I don't think a huge step 2 would open any more doors.

 

[Melkor]

You have no chance of going anywhere with a 257. You should look into teaching at the local community college.

And your obvious humblebrag is obvious.

Yeah, I figured it came off like that but didn't know how else to phrase it. If I didn't list step 1 then an answer to my question wouldn't be relevant as it would depend on the step 1 score. And I wasn't concerned about matching "somewhere" which I guess I didn't make clear. Sorry...

You'll get interviews at the top places that interview DO students already with your step 1. I don't think a huge step 2 would open any more doors.

Thanks, that changes how much time I spend studying for this thing.

 

[iatros]

OK maybe I was a little harsh. Your scores are good. You won't have any problems. And it seems like step 2 isn't held in the same regard as step 1 so like DrBowtie said, unless it's a BIG jump, an increased step 2 probably won't do THAT much for you.

 

[Kaputt]

What "top"-ish allopathic places interview DOs? I hardly ran across any DO applicants or residents at most of the more "top" places I interviewed at this year.

 

[shark2000]

Bitter truth: There is a huge bias against DO in the world of radiology and overall in medicine.

There are some stellar DO physicians. Also you may find DO residents and attendings even in top programs, but these are exceptions. Generally speaking, your chance is less than an MD with the same scores. Some programs may not even look at your application even if you get the highest score in step 2. You have a good chance at mid tier programs. But I don't think there is a good chance for you at top programs.

 

[Kaputt]

Some random university programs with DOs as current residents:

Ohio State
U of Cincinnati
Cleveland Clinic
U of Minnesota
Dartmouth
Temple
U of Missouri - Columbia
U of Missouri - Kansas City
MUSC
Virginia Commonwealth
Drexel
Penn State
U of Oklahoma
U of Toledo
U of New Mexico
MCG/Georgia Regents

I'm sure there's more out there, I just did some Googling for like 10 minutes.

 

[greg1184]

Friend of mine is going to MUSC. He is a DO.

 

[Kaputt]

Added that to my list. Found a couple more as well.

 

[rule out normal]

The program director at my home instution said that a high step 2 does help. I know, it's just one guy.

 

[Kaputt]

The program director at my home instution said that a high step 2 does help. I know, it's just one guy.

PD at my home program said he barely even looks at it. He told me he views it as being too variable of a test, which not all students take as seriously as Step 1 so he judges people on their Step 1. Once again, just one guy.

I think that specialties like internal medicine, who value that actual clinical knowledge far more, are the ones who care most about Step 2.

 

[Shifty B]

Step 2 does matter, but with a very high step 1, the risk of taking it probably outweighs the benefit. I.e., if you take step 2 and get a 270, you've gained very little, but if you take it and get a 230, then your 257 looks like a fluke. No matter how smart you think you are, there is a distinct chance of getting worse.

I say don't take it. It's not likely to help you at places that don't interview DOs anyway.

 

[yesno]

.

 

[yesno]

I am a DO with similar scores. I will do step2 just because I don't mind doing those uworld questions. I still have trouble deciding if I want to do radiology. Vacation is what attracts me. But if my best attribute is m.c. exams then maybe I am more suited for rads.

 

[Baller MD]

...

 

[tco]

I had a similar step 1 and my thought process was that I could only hurt myself by taking it. However, you're a DO, so if you want to try to be competitive in more competitive programs that accept DO students, you might want to consider taking it. If you're just looking to get into a program, I'd think about holding off on taking it until later.

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[tco]

Also, WVU accepts DO students. I know a few in the program.

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[MossPoh]

I felt like my step 2 (260+) MIGHT have gotten me an interview or two, but overall seemed like a non factor. They brought up my clinical performance and NBME scores that were mentioned in my dean's letter, if they brought it up at all. It never felt like they cared much about step 2.

 

[DermViser]

Bitter truth: There is a huge bias against DO in the world of radiology and overall in medicine.

There are some stellar DO physicians. Also you may find DO residents and attendings even in top programs, but these are exceptions. Generally speaking, your chance is less than an MD with the same scores. Some programs may not even look at your application even if you get the highest score in step 2. You have a good chance at mid tier programs. But I don't think there is a good chance for you at top programs.

I wonder why? It's not like DOs will be doing physical exams on people so the quality of MS-3 clerkships is quite irrelevant.

 

[shark2000]

I wonder why? It's not like DOs will be doing physical exams on people so the quality of MS-3 clerkships is quite irrelevant.

The general consensus (right or wrong) among MDs is that people who can not make it into medical schools go to DO schools.

We can fight over it forever, but at the end of the day it is what it is.

Is going to a top 20 medical school make you a better radiologist than going to a strong solid state university? No. But most PD will choose an applicant from Hopkins over an applicant from ... any day of the week.

Is doing a Neuro fellowship at UCSF make you a better neuroradiologist than doing it at a solid program in south or midwest? No. But 9/10 groups choose someone from UCSF over other applicants if other factors are the same.

As you go through, you will find that certain things are important without any reason. Nevertheless, these factors are much less important in medicine than something like law or business.

 

[DermViser]

The general consensus (right or wrong) among MDs is that people who can not make it into medical schools go to DO schools.

We can fight over it forever, but at the end of the day it is what it is.

Is going to a top 20 medical school make you a better radiologist than going to a strong solid state university? No. But most PD will choose an applicant from Hopkins over an applicant from ... any day of the week.

Is doing a Neuro fellowship at UCSF make you a better neuroradiologist than doing it at a solid program in south or midwest? No. But 9/10 groups choose someone from UCSF over other applicants if other factors are the same.

As you go through, you will find that certain things are important without any reason. Nevertheless, these factors are much less important in medicine than something like law or business.

So would they take a Hopkins grad with lower Step scores than a state MD school grad with higher Step scores? I'm guessing that the reason the Hopkins grad would be taken is maybe that the class there might be a lot more competitive there vs. a state MD school, when it comes to achieving Honors?

 

[shark2000]

So would they take a Hopkins grad with lower Step scores than a state MD school grad with higher Step scores? I'm guessing that the reason the Hopkins grad would be taken is maybe that the class there might be a lot more competitive there vs. a state MD school, when it comes to achieving Honors?

It depends on the program and the difference in scores.

I think a Hopkins grad with a score of 240 is ranked higher than a University of Maryland grad with a score of 250. The score of 240 or 250 is of no use to the programs. But they can always "market" themselves as a place that Hopkins graduates end up. This is esp true for the excellent programs that don't have the name brand. Big name programs like MGH don't need to market themselves. But other excellent programs want to market themselves to get better applicants.

 

[DermViser]

It depends on the program and the difference in scores.

I think a Hopkins grad with a score of 240 is ranked higher than a University of Maryland grad with a score of 250. The score of 240 or 250 is of no use to the programs. But they can always "market" themselves as a place that Hopkins graduates end up. This is esp true for the excellent programs that don't have the name brand. Big name programs like MGH don't need to market themselves. But other excellent programs want to market themselves to get better applicants.

Ah, so in the case of Hopkins (or any top tier med school) residency programs (the mid to low tier ones) are falling over themselves to recruit you, so they can show off on their program website that they got a Hopkins grad.

 

[rule out normal]

So would they take a Hopkins grad with lower Step scores than a state MD school grad with higher Step scores? I'm guessing that the reason the Hopkins grad would be taken is maybe that the class there might be a lot more competitive there vs. a state MD school, when it comes to achieving Honors?

I've heard that lots of those top schools have significantly higher rates of people honoring third year clerkships compared to large public state schools.

 

[DermViser]

I've heard that lots of those top schools have significantly higher rates of people honoring third year clerkships compared to large public state schools.

You bet. See here:
WashU
https://residency.wustl.edu/Application/Pages/Application Materials.aspx

U Chicago Pritzker (page 49 - sample MSPE)
http://pritzker.uchicago.edu/current/students/AcademicGuidelines.pdf

Their "P" grade is in the single digits.

 

[shark2000]

Ah, so in the case of Hopkins (or any top tier med school) residency programs (the mid to low tier ones) are falling over themselves to recruit you, so they can show off on their program website that they got a Hopkins grad.

Even some top tier medical schools that don't have the name brand of Hopkins may do so.

I agree that the name does not mean anything. But USMLE score also does not mean that much, if it is within a certain range. A step one of 240 versus 260 does not make you a worse or better resident, the same as being from Hopkins or a solid state university.

We can talk about a bigger issue in the system. If you (your parents) pay for an expensive private high school and college, you have a better change of going to a top tier medical school. This translates into better chance for a competitive residency and better fellowship.
IMO, it becomes less important from fellowship to job esp if you want to end up in pp, though still has some weak effect. However, for academic jobs still the rule is effective and being from MGH or Hopkins opens much more doors.

 

[tco]

Even some top tier medical schools that don't have the name brand of Hopkins may do so.

I agree that the name does not mean anything. But USMLE score also does not mean that much, if it is within a certain range. A step one of 240 versus 260 does not make you a worse or better resident, the same as being from Hopkins or a solid state university.

We can talk about a bigger issue in the system. If you (your parents) pay for an expensive private high school and college, you have a better change of going to a top tier medical school. This translates into better chance for a competitive residency and better fellowship.
IMO, it becomes less important from fellowship to job esp if you want to end up in pp, though still has some weak effect. However, for academic jobs still the rule is effective and being from MGH or Hopkins opens much more doors.

I'd rather not be at these "top" programs. Everyone that I've met from programs like that on the interview trail were total d-bags.

 

[rule out normal]

I'd rather not be at these "top" programs. Everyone that I've met from programs like that on the interview trail were total d-bags.

I met a few on my trail, and most of them were awkward or pompous or both. Some were fine though.

 

[DermViser]

I'd rather not be at these "top" programs. Everyone that I've met from programs like that on the interview trail were total d-bags.

Are you sure or maybe you prejudged them?

 

[tco]

Are you sure or maybe you prejudged them?

I judged them from the dinner, when I didn't know where they were from. That's not to say that there weren't dbags from other programs, just a higher concentration from "top tier programs." Can't really blame them. You can only go so long being told that your **** doesn't stink until you start believing it's true.

 

[DermViser]

I judged them from the dinner, when I didn't know where they were from. That's not to say that there weren't dbags from other programs, just a higher concentration from "top tier programs." Can't really blame them. You can only go so long being told that your **** doesn't stink until you start believing it's true.

I'm sure their med schools also tell them how "special" they are all the time.