High V/Q

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edema66

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hi,

could someone please explain to me why an increase in dead space ventilation causes hypercapnia and hypoxemia?

seriously confused dude

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edema66 said:
hi,

could someone please explain to me why an increase in dead space ventilation causes hypercapnia and hypoxemia?

seriously confused dude


Dead space is area that when you put air into it, that air won't participate in gas exchange. So say you have a tidal volume of .5 L...if you start with a dead space of 150 ml, you're getting a total of 500-150 ml= 350 ml of air to a place where gas exchange can take place. If you increase the dead space ventilation to, say, 200 ml, you now have 200 of those 500 ml not participating in gas exchange, so only 500-200 ml= 300 ml of air getting to places it can be used. The key here is that INCREASING DEAD SPACE VENTILATION DOES NOT INCREASE TIDAL VOLUME. So you have the same amount in, just less being used. And since you have less air being used (i.e. less air bringing oxygen in and taking CO2 out), you're going to be getting less O2 (hypoxia) and building up CO2 (hypercapnia).

Hope that helps...
 
edema66 said:
hi,

could someone please explain to me why an increase in dead space ventilation causes hypercapnia and hypoxemia?

seriously confused dude

What's the high V/Q state you're referring to? A PE?
 
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neutropenic said:
What's the high V/Q state you're referring to? A PE?


yeh...could you explain that to me please?
 
edema66 said:
yeh...could you explain that to me please?

I was told during ICU it was due to a "cytokine storm" and that's why even small PEs can wreak havoc. Here's an abstract I found on google:

Résumé : Des études récentes sur les endothélines (ETs) et leur voie de biosynthèse et de dégradation ont contribué à l'avancement des connaissances sur l'embolie pulmonaire aigue (EPA). Les ETs sont de puissants vasoconstricteurs et bronchoconstricteurs retrouvés abondemment dans le poumon et peuvent être libérées suite à des stimuli tels un dommage à l'endothélium, l'hypoxie ou la thrombine, cette dernière étant un produit clé dans la cascade de coagulation. Plusieurs études utilisant différentes approches et méthodes d'induction d'une embolie pulmonaire, tant in vivo que in vitro, ont pour le plupart montré que les ETs jouent un rôle important dans la pathophysiologie de l'EPA. Ces résultats ont été obtenus en comparant les données hémodynamiques en absence ou en présence de divers antagonistes des ETs, mais aussi via la modulation des éléments reliés aux ETs par analyse cellulaire et moléculaire. En se basant sur nos connaissances actuelles, nous proposons un mécanisme d'action impliquant les ETs dans la pathophysiologie de l'EPA. Nous postulons que les ETs sont des médiateurs de premier ordre dans l'EPA puisque: (i) les ETs sont sécrétées par les cellules endothéliales pulmonaires, lesquelles sont les premières cellules endommagées; (ii) les ETs agissent directement comme vasoconstricteur, bronchoconstricteur, et pro-mitogènes via des récepteurs spécifiques; et (iii) que les ETs agissent indirectement via la libération secondaire de thromboxane et de d'autres médiateurs, qui sont sécrétés par les cellules inflammatoires et les plaquettes et qui, ensemble, augmentent la réponse lors de l'EPA. Ces effets combinés des ETs sur le tonus pulmonaire et vasculaire au poumon viendraient affecter négativement la perfusion ventilatoire et améneraient une hypoxémie sévère, sans toutefois être associés à des changements radiographiques chez ces patients. Ainsi, nous devrons considérer les inhibiteurs des ETs dans l'arsenal thérapeutique chez les patients avec EPA.


Abstract: Recent research on the endothelins (ETs) and their pathways in acute pulmonary embolism (APE) has led to significant advances in the understanding of this disease. ETs are potent vasoconstrictors and bronchoconstrictors found abundantly in the lung and can be released by stimuli such as endothelial injury, hypoxia, or thrombin, a key product in the coagulation cascade. Many studies using different approaches and methods of inducing pulmonary embolization, both in vitro and in vivo in various species, have mostly shown that ETs play an important role in the pathophysiology of APE. These results were obtained by comparing the hemodynamic data in the presence or absence of various ETs inhibitors, but also by assessing the modulation of the ET-related elements of this system by molecular, cell biology, and pharmacological methods. Based on the current understanding, a mechanism involving the ET pathway in the pathophysiology of APE is proposed for the reader's considerations. We postulate that ETs are primary mediators in APE based on the following: (i) their source from pulmonary endothelial cells where the primary injury takes place; (ii) their direct vasconstrictive, bronchoconstrictive, and promitogenic effects via distinct ET receptors; and (iii) their indirect effects associated with the secondary release of thromboxane and other mediators, which are released from inflammatory cells and platelets, which together can potentiate the overall hemodynamic response, most specifically the pulmonary vascular bed. Such combined effects of ETs on bronchomotor and vasomotor tone in the lung can adversely affect ventilation perfusion matching and lead to severe hypoxemia without causing significant changes in the chest X-ray of these patients. Thus, we may consider ET inhibitors as future current therapeutic agents in patients with PE.

http://rparticle.web-p.cisti.nrc.ca...ume=81&year=&issue=&msno=y03-017&calyLang=eng
 
I imagine you're looking for a basic physio kind of answer?

So I think its a little confusing because with a PE there's no shunting, thus you have no mixing of blood, and theoretically could prevent hypoxemia with 100% O2. I believe the best physiological explaination has to do with the transit time--the time it takes for the blood to move through the alveolar capillary and whether that amount of time is sufficient for the gases to equillibrate.

In normal healthy lungs, O2 easily equillibrates within the time it takes the blood to move through the alveolar capillary, making the exchange of O2 "perfussion limited" so moving a lot of blood through that capilllary will facilitate a lot of gas exchange.

However, if you have a small-medium sized PE (and your RV is able to compensate) then you're moving roughly the same volume of blood through fewer capillary beds. Thus the transit time will decrease and the gasses may not fully equillibrate in the time it takes for the blood to move across the alveoli. In other words the exchange of O2 has become "diffusion limited." The best way to overcome this is to increase diffusion by increasing the driving force for O2 mov't (the concentration gradient) by giving the pt 100% O2. The same principle works in emphysema where destruction of alveoli and their capillaries also produces a high V/Q situation. 100% O2 is effective in that case as well.

In larger PEs (like a saddle embolus) my little preclinical mind believes the cause of death is actually acute right heart failure, as the right ventricle is not that strong and can be quickely overwhelmed by a sudden increase in resistance. And of course, as neutropenic already pointed out, the reality of the sitution is probably more complicated....but above is the best basic physio explaination I can give.
 
edema66 said:
hi,

could someone please explain to me why an increase in dead space ventilation causes hypercapnia and hypoxemia?

seriously confused dude
Stick to the basics. If you have dead spaces where no blood is arriving, O2 isn't coming into blood, CO2 isn't coming out of blood. Therefore, hypercapnia + hypoxemia.
 
Oh and neutropenic, thank you for including the original french....so much is lost in translation... 😉
 
leviathan said:
Stick to the basics. If you have dead spaces where no blood is arriving, O2 isn't coming into blood, CO2 isn't coming out of blood. Therefore, hypercapnia + hypoxemia.

Yeah but that doesn't help him understand how high V/Q and low V/Q are different.
 
velo said:
I imagine you're looking for a basic physio kind of answer?

So I think its a little confusing because with a PE there's no shunting, thus you have no mixing of blood, and theoretically could prevent hypoxemia with 100% O2. I believe the best physiological explaination has to do with the transit time--the time it takes for the blood to move through the alveolar capillary and whether that amount of time is sufficient for the gases to equillibrate.

In normal healthy lungs, O2 easily equillibrates within the time it takes the blood to move through the alveolar capillary, making the exchange of O2 "perfussion limited" so moving a lot of blood through that capilllary will facilitate a lot of gas exchange.

However, if you have a small-medium sized PE (and your RV is able to compensate) then you're moving roughly the same volume of blood through fewer capillary beds. Thus the transit time will decrease and the gasses may not fully equillibrate in the time it takes for the blood to move across the alveoli. In other words the exchange of O2 has become "diffusion limited." The best way to overcome this is to increase diffusion by increasing the driving force for O2 mov't (the concentration gradient) by giving the pt 100% O2. The same principle works in emphysema where destruction of alveoli and their capillaries also produces a high V/Q situation. 100% O2 is effective in that case as well.

In larger PEs (like a saddle embolus) my little preclinical mind believes the cause of death is actually acute right heart failure, as the right ventricle is not that strong and can be quickely overwhelmed by a sudden increase in resistance. And of course, as neutropenic already pointed out, the reality of the sitution is probably more complicated....but above is the best basic physio explaination I can give.


I thought he was asking about the effect of dead space. From what I understand from undergrad physio (sorry, not in med school yet, but I thought of giving it a try - grade me on this one if you will) this dead space will decrease the Alveolar pO2 thus decreasing the pressure gradient for O2 from the alveoli to diffuse into the pulmonary capillaries causing hypoxemia. Same for CO2, since not much CO2 is being expelled from the alveoli due to the dead space, there is also a lower pressure/concentration gradient for CO2 from the unoxygenated blood to diffuse from the capillaries into the alveoli causing hypercapnia.

This may be too simplistic for med school, but did I understand this concept correctly?

When you mentioned transit time, is this the amount of time for the gasses to diffuse through the capillary and alveolar walls? Just wanted some clarifications.

Thanks in advance.
 
velo said:
Oh and neutropenic, thank you for including the original french....so much is lost in translation... 😉

Je suis heureux que j'aie été utile.
 
newbie1kenobi said:
I thought he was asking about the effect of dead space. From what I understand from undergrad physio (sorry, not in med school yet, but I thought of giving it a try - grade me on this one if you will) this dead space will decrease the Alveolar pO2 thus decreasing the pressure gradient for O2 from the alveoli to diffuse into the pulmonary capillaries causing hypoxemia. Same for CO2, since not much CO2 is being expelled from the alveoli due to the dead space, there is also a lower pressure/concentration gradient for CO2 from the unoxygenated blood to diffuse from the capillaries into the alveoli causing hypercapnia.

This may be too simplistic for med school, but did I understand this concept correctly?

When you mentioned transit time, is this the amount of time for the gasses to diffuse through the capillary and alveolar walls? Just wanted some clarifications.

Thanks in advance.

Transit time is the amount of time it takes for a RBC to transverse the alveolar capillary. You can imagine that the flux of gas from alveoli to blood will be greatest at the beginning of that capillary (when the gradient is greatest) and almost zero at the end of the capillary when the (partial pressures have almost equilibrated). In a normal lung oxygen is perfusion limited, meaning the PaO2 and the PAO2 equilibrate well before the end of the alveolar capillary. But if you destroy capillaries with emphysema or block off capillarys with a clot, you will move the same volume of blood through fewer capillary beds. This will result in an increase in their velocity, a decrease in the transit time, and you can possibly decrease the transit time to the point that the PaO2 and PAO2 don't equillibrate by the time the RBC has left the alveolar capillary. Thus you're hypoxic because the movement of O2 has become diffusion limited. You can reverse that by increasing the concentration gradient between the alveoli and the blood, ie giving 100% O2.

For the pathophysiology of PE and emphysema I feel that the concept of dead space isn't as important as transit time--because the real underlying mechanism is loss of capillaries, that just happens to create dead space. The dead space shouldn't have a decreased PAO2. Its not participating in gas exchange so its PAO2 should just be the same as inspired air (- the effects of humidification).

Anyway, I think the important point is the difference between high V/Q where 100% O2 can correct the hypoxemia, and low V/Q with shunting and mixing of blood where only the hypercapnia, and not the hypoxemia, can be fully corrected.
 
neutropenic said:
Je suis heureux que j'aie été utile.


It's been a long time since my last french class, but did you just say, "I am happy to have been a tool" ?!
 
velo said:
Transit time is the amount of time it takes for a RBC to transverse the alveolar capillary. You can imagine that the flux of gas from alveoli to blood will be greatest at the beginning of that capillary (when the gradient is greatest) and almost zero at the end of the capillary when the (partial pressures have almost equilibrated). In a normal lung oxygen is perfusion limited, meaning the PaO2 and the PAO2 equilibrate well before the end of the alveolar capillary. But if you destroy capillaries with emphysema or block off capillarys with a clot, you will move the same volume of blood through fewer capillary beds. This will result in an increase in their velocity, a decrease in the transit time, and you can possibly decrease the transit time to the point that the PaO2 and PAO2 don't equillibrate by the time the RBC has left the alveolar capillary. Thus you're hypoxic because the movement of O2 has become diffusion limited. You can reverse that by increasing the concentration gradient between the alveoli and the blood, ie giving 100% O2.

For the pathophysiology of PE and emphysema I feel that the concept of dead space isn't as important as transit time--because the real underlying mechanism is loss of capillaries, that just happens to create dead space. The dead space shouldn't have a decreased PAO2. Its not participating in gas exchange so its PAO2 should just be the same as inspired air (- the effects of humidification).

Anyway, I think the important point is the difference between high V/Q where 100% O2 can correct the hypoxemia, and low V/Q with shunting and mixing of blood where only the hypercapnia, and not the hypoxemia, can be fully corrected.

I get it now. The OP was talking about dead space ventilation in the alveoli (that's why the reference about PE - so wasted ventilation in the alveoli then). I was thinking more of the increase in anatomical dead space (e.g. breathing through a pipe). Thanks for the clarification.
 
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