HMS's unacceptable bias?

[luverofpenn]

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Hi guys. I was wondering how much of an advantange Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT unders get when they apply to HMS. I read on Havard Crimson somewhere that 30+ kids from Harvard College get into HMS. I really believe that these numbers are just too skewed, even for Harvard. Seriously, just because you go to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT doesn't mean you are the smartest kids there are. Before any of you from those schools say anything about me being bitter, I just want to let you know that I did get accepted into all of your schools. I even got partial scholarships for some but it was just not enough. Should I get the royal job just because my mommy and daddy live in the ghettos and couldn't afford anything over a few hundred dollars?

 

[juddson]

My guess is that Harvard Medical School's GPA and MCAT scores are very high. These are the scores that people who matriculate there have. That being the case, I don't see how harvard, yale, Princeton, etc. grads are getting a free ride. They have the have the grades and the MCAT scores. What's the problem?

Judd

 

[strangeattractor]

i bet some of those reported 30 kids decided not to go there, like you didn't for undergrad.

squack to your unabashed self-bragging session, though. who cares. did you really even need to mention that? seriously. maybe you should carry around a ruler so you can measure your dick on the hour, every hour. there are eight year olds making shoes as we speak, and people dying of hunger. why the heck do so many people on this board sit up late at night worrying about their chances at harvard?? at some point i have to question how much people like you are doing the med thing for prestige or the ability to boast about where they were accepted. pbbt.

sorry to come across as rude, but i have encountered at least three threads on harvard in the past hour. ew. let's all have a collective reality check, holmes. there ARE other med schools.

 

[Street Philosopher]

a lot (all?) of schools practice in-breeding with their undergrad. harvard is no different.

 

[Gleevec]

Originally posted by luverofpenn
Hi guys. I was wondering how much of an advantange Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT unders get when they apply to HMS. I read on Havard Crimson somewhere that 30+ kids from Harvard College get into HMS. I really believe that these numbers are just too skewed, even for Harvard. Seriously, just because you go to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT doesn't mean you are the smartest kids there are. Before any of you from those schools say anything about me being bitter, I just want to let you know that I did get accepted into all of your schools. I even got partial scholarships for some but it was just not enough. Should I get the royal job just because my mommy and daddy live in the ghettos and couldn't afford anything over a few hundred dollars?

If Penn is so good, why not go there for med school too?

And yes, you are bitter.

Harvard can take whoever it wants form around the country, and out of self-selection, some of the brightest come from its own undergrad. Anyways, most schools accept predominantly from their own undergrad, so its not as if Harvard is the only one doing it.

 

[luverofpenn]

First of all GLEEVEC, I am not BITTER. I just feel for some of the people out there who are equally as qualified but will not be accepted because they do not go to those schools. I feel confident with my 3.97 and 40S.

Second of all Strangeattractor, maybe you should ask yourself whether you are looking at the right forum. If you don't have much of a chance at Harvard, I don't blame you for being less intelligent or just plain out lazy, but personally I feel I have legitimate reasons for asking.

And NO PENN does not practice inbreeding unlike some of these schools. We have a huge class compared to other Ivies. Penn Med also does not give preference to us. They are fair.

 

[noy]

Did squatandsqueeze transfer to penn? I smell troll... I think the best undergraduate education is in Australia, and the best medical school in Iraq.

So there. 😀

 

[exmike]

For a med school like harvard or hopkins to not take more of its own undergrads would suggest that the school isnt confident in how well it prepares its students. Imagine the implications on the image of their undergrad programs if that was the case.

Second, harvard is harvard. they can take whoever they want, and pissing off about it wont change anything. Is it fair that i'm not your friend because i didnt go to upenn? So basically i have to go to upenn to have a better chance at being your friend? Is that unfair?

 

[Gleevec]

If you're so confident, then why are you so scared of HMS admissions?

And I bet if you take a look at Penn SOM stats, most of their students come from their undergrad. This is the way most med schools work, and to do otherwise is an aberration.

Haha Penn is "fair". Whatever that means. Then again, you are unreasonably biased. 🙄

Penn has a great medical school, but lets not make it sound like its a saint among demons. It does the exact same things that other med schools do for exactly the same reasons other schools do it.

Anyway, Im done with this thread, later troll.

 

[28129]

It's too bad you go to that ghetto rat hole U-Penn. Maybe if you work hard, your children can attend a real Ivy League school.

 

[premedi-kid]

Originally posted by ShantanuThakur
It's too bad you go to that ghetto rat hole U-Penn. Maybe if you work hard, your children can attend a real Ivy League school.

I was about to say the same thing

 

[Elysium]

loser (oops, I mean lover) of penn:

I hope to the sweet lord jesus above that you are a troll. If you really are for real I'm never going to stop throwing up. You are a pathetic, sad, angry, bitter toolbox. Go back to junior high or other hole that you came out of.

Bye bye now...

 

[Idiopathic]

Nobody has a 3.97. You either have all A's, a 3.75, or you dropped out of school because the Sociology professor your junior year 'gave' you a B and ****ed up your whole GPA

 

[Idiopathic]

And if you really had a 3.97, you would be reporting it to three decimals, like med schools do (i.e. 3.974)

 

[luverofpenn]

Guys whats up with the bitterness? I posted a decent question.

Whats your problem ShantanuThakur? Think you are all that? I'm guessing your GPA isn't too high so you have to attack other people's financial status to make yourself feel good. I bet you would s*** **** to get into OUR MED SCHOOL

Look whos talking Premedi-kid. Ithaca eh? You majoring in Hotel Management or are you just another kid majoring in biology at some school ranked lower than penn?

Elysium. I have nothing against texans in general, but I think what you said was just uncalled for...... especially for someone who is supposedly going to med school. Too bad you are not in a top 5 school or even a ranked school at that, otherwise I might prove to you I am for real in a year.

Idiots are actually fun for laughs but someone who is idiopathic is just plain out sad. Guess I can't blame people who haven't seen a good GPA score. I mean no offense to the rest of you.

Peace people

 

[Childe]

hay guys my school is better than yours

 

[Idiopathic]

oh, jeez...this is good stuff.

you posted an absolutely ******ed question. schools such as these are under no obligation to admit anyobody and so they admit whoever they want. if you had any sense about you, you might realize that. I mean, GWB went to two Ivy's, for crying out loud. Do you think it was because of his EC's?

 

[Pinkertinkle]

Oh boo hoo, get me a waaambulance.

 

[tygrwds]

😀

 

[Gleevec]

Quotes from the PennTroll:
"I was wondering how much of an advantange Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT unders get when they apply to HMS. I read on Havard Crimson somewhere that 30+ kids from Harvard College get into HMS. I really believe that these numbers are just too skewed, even for Harvard. Seriously, just because you go to Harvard, Princeton, Yale, MIT doesn't mean you are the smartest kids there are."

"You majoring in Hotel Management or are you just another kid majoring in biology at some school ranked lower than penn? "

"Too bad you are not in a top 5 school or even a ranked school at that, otherwise I might prove to you I am for real in a year. "
-----------------------------------------------

So, basically, you say people who go to higher ranked schools than you (Harvard, Yale, Princeton) aren't smarter than you. But then you insult people who go to lower ranked schools for being "dumber" (which is an erroneous assumption to make). How does this not make you a hypocrite?

If you truly believed a school's rank doesnt automatically equate with the intelligence of its graduates (as you said in the original post), you would apply that logic to all schools. Essentially, you have a vested interest in attempting to rationalize your inability to get into a higher ranked school for undergrad by saying Penn is better, but that very logic is easily extended to any school in the nation. Yet you violate your own reasoning in insulting others, and show an inability to grasp fundamental argumentation and logic.

So quit with the trolling and with the hypocrisy. Or, if you are going to troll, at least dont be a hypocrite. 🙄

For myself, I frankly dont think undergrad automatically indicates superiority or inferiority-- each person has their own reasons for attending whatever school they are at. Perhaps you should adopt a similar philosophy, stop worrying so much about what others are doing, and start worrying about yourself?

And I'm surprised you havent figured out yet that medschools favor their own undergrad for admissions because they know what kind of students they are getting, it increases the respectibility of the institution as a whole, and it builds an alumni base. Every medical school does that-- and to not do so shows people that your undergraduate education is not up to par.

 

[What the pho]

Ivy league schools are overrated any way. I go to a state school in Calif. I'm smarter cuz I pay less tuition and go to a highly ranked school, okay not that highly ranked but my med school education is not going to suffer cuz I've given up yale, cornell, columbia and stanford med to go to a cheaper school, and beautiful weather year round. I'd hate to go to an expensive ivy just to be confused w/penn state.😀

 

[MBA_Doc]

I have to agree somewhat with LuverofPenn here - there is something strange about Harvard....

Its not just their M-school, its their B-school as well. Why else would they pick someone like that Blossom girl into their business program, and reject thousands of other qualified candidates?

I'm not dissing them in any way - just think that their admissions procedures are just a little off the wall sometimes.... but then again, its Harvard. And most of us would saw off an arm to get in there. As long as its not my right one.

 

[Tezzie]

The reason why Harvard med has so many people who did their undergrad in Harvard is because of their merit. Usually the people who make the top undergrad schools have a methodology of studying and most of the times they know what they want. If you take a good look around at other schools though you will find plenty Harvard grads in CWR or Yeshiva (just a couple of examples).

Having graduated Harvard (or whatever other top school for that matter) is just like legacy. *IF* you have the scores, the ECs and the research then you have great chances for Harvard med. If you graduated Harvard with a 2.5 then good luck trying to make it in ANY med school. Namebrand will only get you so far (and in this case it doesn't take very far anyway).

To end this stupid discussion, you also need to understand that med school is NOT law school. In law school you have the scores and you can make it anywhere (most of the times). Try mdapplicants.com and see people who made Harvard yet they were rejected without interview at UCLA. Or people getting in Hopkins and not making Duke post-interview. At some point it gets random without any logical basis.

 

[thewebthsp]

A lot of people get into elite schools for being great athletes, or having a mommy or daddy who went to that school, or having a mommy or daddy with loads of cash.

If you have a high MCAT (a high SAT confirms this) and GPA then wherever you are from, you've got the goods to make it. Lots of Princeton grads are smart, relative to the general population, but have far less smarts than say a kid from UC Berkeley -- simply because they were recruited for, say, lacrosse or fencing.

11-1200 on the SAT (Div. I Ivy athlete's avg SAT) is 1 std. dev higher than the national average, but 1400+ is the average at Princeton, which is 2 std. devs. In other words the former represents the top 17% of test takers but the AVERAGE at Princeton would be the top 2.3% of test takers. UCB premeds probably average 1400 or so. Being from Princeton a priori doesn't make you a stellar candidate, although it's LESS LIKELY you wouldn't be.

 

[Charlotte York]

Whoa.. whoa... you have a 3.97 GPA and a 40MCAT and you go to Penn? Somehow, I don't believe it!

 

[firex]

I agree that the OP asked a semi-stupid question; however, I do not think it was worthless, and he/she probably didn't deserve the flaming that ensued.

I go to UPENN, so I understand some of the OP's bitterness. Penn is not a feeder school... at least no where on the same level as many comparable institutions. I remembered reading on WSJ that Penn was #16 as a feeder school, and Harvard (no surprise here) was #1.

Since I'm a Penn student, I am going to defend my school, even if luverofpenn is a troll. First, Charlotte York's post is quite ridiculous, since I know that every year there's at least several people with these stats from Penn undergrad. We do have over 2000 students/year, so it would be ****ty if no one achieved such a number. I guess I should be disappointed that Penn does not get the respect that it should.

Second, luverofpenn's original post was dumb, but the subsequent attacks on the school was uncalled for (i.e. calling Penn a "ghetto rat hole"), since the OP did not really attack any school. Also, just because luverofpenn was bitter and blabbed out some really high stats does not make him/her a fake automatically. SDN'ers seem too quick to judge nowadays. I was actually surprised at the luverofpenn's post, because I also turned down Harvard undergrad for Upenn (due to full-scholarship and other financial reasons) and I have similar GPA and slightly lower MCAT. luverofpenn may have been a fake, but his/her story is not an impossibility at Penn.

Yea, this post was a long rant. I guess I just had to defend my school and fellow dumb Penn classmate.

 

[8744]

Man. Some of you people are unreal.

For the record, in a country of almost 300 million it is the height of hubris to suppose that the 67 (?) entering freshmen at Harvard Medical School are the smartest, most deserving in the nation.

Or that the Ivy League itself is the only source of intelligent undergraduates.

For the record, I picked my undergradute university because it was close by, the tuition was cheap, and the application didn't require an essay, self-aggrandizing "volunteer" experience, or demonstration of pubertal leadership skills in such activities as High School Student Council.

I think I paid something like $4000 per year for my completely servicable Civil Engineering degree.

Which brings up another point. A school is just a place where you pay money for an education. Forming an emotional attachment to it is kind of silly. I mean, I like going to Wal Mart but I'm hardly going to run around town wearing a Wal Mart T-shirt or leave them my money when I die.

 

[Catalyst]

"A school is just a place where you pay money for an education. Forming an emotional attachment to it is kind of silly. I mean, I like going to Wal Mart but I'm hardly going to run around town wearing a Wal Mart T-shirt or leave them my money when I die."

Soooo true. Although I'd have to say undergraduate is a bit different than going to Walmart because one doesn't personally develop at Walmart (or maybe one does, what do I know)

 

[Sonya]

I think the original questions was quite legitimate. unfortunately, this thread turned into a bunch of silly arguments. But, there are are a few answers if you sift through the junk.

Do any of you think there are schools that AVOID their own undergrads? My PI, who used to be on the WashU adcom, says he thinks they don't like WashU grads. but then, when i asked what made him think so, it was just a few anectodotal stories....

 

[rager1]

Originally posted by Sonya

Do any of you think there are schools that AVOID their own undergrads? My PI, who used to be on the WashU adcom, says he thinks they don't like WashU grads. but then, when i asked what made him think so, it was just a few anectodotal stories....

No, I don't know of any medical schools that avoid their own undergrads though I do know a lot engineering schools that discourage undergrad/grad program in-breeding...

A lot of people make the mistake of thinking that Baylor School of Medicine and Baylor University are connected but they separated in '76 due to disagreements over abortion. Essentially Baylor University said "You may not perform abortions and remain affiliated with us" and Baylor Med said "Ok. Bye!" Rice is now the "feeder" school into Baylor. Proximity and familarity with the rigors of their programs probably give Rice applicants an advantage at Baylor Med.

I've been told that UT-SW has a high number of Baylor Undergrads...Given that Baylor Undergrad is in Waco, I'm not sure what it is about UT-SW (Dallas) and Baylor undergrads other than the fact that UT-SW is probably the best buy for your money (assuming you're a Texas resident). $7500 tuition for a Top 20 med school...

At Stanford, while the medical school is part of the university, it has it's own bursar, registrar, ADCOM and undergrads don't ever run into med students/faculty unless they're doing research or part of an advising group. Stanford students do have a statistical advantage compared to other medical school applicants: ~200 Stanford undergrads apply to Stanford Med each year and slightly more than 30 tend to get in. The overall admission rate is 4% but Stanford students have a 15% admissions rate.

UCSF also tends to like students from Stanford but we're only 30 miles away.

--Rager1

 

[1996]

I am not sure if the OP's argument is justified. The OP claimed that according to an article, 30+ Harvard grads got into HMS. While this may sound like a high number or HMS has an "unacceptable bias," the number of acceptances at a school depends on so many other factors that you can never conclude that such "bias" actually exists. Maybe Harvard has more pre-meds; maybe more Harvard students have high MCAT scores; maybe the number of applicants from Harvard to HMS is much higher than other schools. Also, HMS might accept similar number or percentage of applicants from other schools as well. When you say UPenn is not a feeder school, can you honestly say that absolutely no preference is given by UPenn med school to UPenn grads? The only way you can say that HMS has an "unacceptable bias" towards its own undergrad is if the average MCAT and GPA of the Harvard grads that are accepted to HMS are significantly lower than that of the general Harvard acceptees. Likewise, the only way you can conclude that UPenn does not give its own undergrads any preference is if the average MCAT and GPA of UPenn grads at Penn are similar to that of the Penn's med school class.

The bottomline is that every school has a different admission policy. In GENERAL, it should all even out and an applicant with an MCAT of 40 would be a strong candidate no matter where he/she went to undergrad.

 

[Neuronix]

Originally posted by 1996
When you say UPenn is not a feeder school, can you honestly say that absolutely no preference is given by UPenn med school to UPenn grads?

Likewise, the only way you can conclude that UPenn does not give its own undergrads any preference is if the average MCAT and GPA of UPenn grads at Penn are similar to that of the Penn's med school class.

I don't have any exact figures in front of me, but I will say the following. I think that at Penn repuation of ugrad is a factor in their decision making (I know for a fact it is for the MD/PhD program). This means Penn does have ALOT of Ivy, private school, and big name state school students. However, if I had to rank the top three ugrads in the first year class without any stats, I would say it would go first to Duke, second to Princeton, and third to Penn.

Penn has a TON of highly qualified students applying to it from its ugrad. For this reason, Penn cannot show preference, as they could easily fill their class with Penn ugrads. The director of admissions here has made it clear that we are not here to "grease the wheels" for Penn ugrads to come to Penn Med, and I don't think that's occuring at all.

 

[donuthole]

A LOT A LOT A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO GET INTO HARVARD UNDERGRAD HAD PHAT CONNECTIONS--I KNOW TOO MANY OF THOSE PEOPLE. NONE OF THEM HAD STELLAR SAT SCORES OR GPAS. THE STORY CONTINUES. THESE HARVARD UNDERGRADS HAVE PHAT GRADE INFLATION AT HARVARD (LIKE 90% GRADUATE WITH HONORS.. WHAT KIND OF NONSENSE IS THAT?), THEY HAVE PRETTY OK MCAT SCORES (NOT LIKE OUTSTANDING) AND JUST BECAUSE THEY WENT TO HARVARD FOR UG THEY HAVE A HIGHER CHANCE OF GETTING IN FOR MED SCHOOL. ALSO B/C THEIR MOMMIES AND DADDIES AND GRANDADDIES WENT TO HARVAHD AND STILL PAY MONEY TO THEM AS ALUMNI. THAT'S WHY I DIDN'T APPLY TO HARVARD MED. I JUST DON'T HAVE ANY CONNECTIONS TO THE SCHOOL. I HEAR STANFORD WORKS PRETTY MUCH THE SAME WAY, TO A LESSER DEGREE.

 

[thackl]

Originally posted by Idiopathic
Nobody has a 3.97. You either have all A's, a 3.75, or you dropped out of school because the Sociology professor your junior year 'gave' you a B and ****ed up your whole GPA

Nope. My PFOS (engineering) was a 3.96.

 

[acab]

On a less-competitive note....

I am a senior at a public college (2nd ug degree at same school) that is very poorly ranked. I love my school and the people who study and work there. I'm very happy going there....I would love to have the reputation of an Ivy grad, but I have no loans, had great opportunities...and interviewed at a few top med schools so far (with a much lower MCAT than 40). Life experience and ability to look at your own abilities critically count a lot.

Sorry to state the obvious: "there's a lot more to life (and to adcoms) than college reputation." But Ivy name does count a lot in lots of med schools.

 

[No Egrets]

I'm sorta familiar with the pre-med atmosphere at Harvard, so allow me to share my thoughts:

While it is true that Harvard Medical School probably accepts some percentage of Harvard undergrads that is higher than their general acceptance rate, we need to consider whether this is a matter of causation or correlation. I don't believe it's true that the HMS AdCom just sees "Harvard Undergrad" on an application and automatically rates it higher than someone with similar credentials from an undergrad of comparable academics. However, being an undergrad at Harvard naturally opens some doors that would make good additions for an application to HMS. For instance, undergrads at Harvard might be able to participate in research with labs affiliated with HMS pretty easily, thereby forming connections with school faculty. They can use the Harvard alumni database to contact HMS-graduated physicians in the area to shadow. They can volunteer at the HMS-affiliated hospitals, thereby forming connections with the school. These are just a few examples of ways that being a student at Harvard college can indirectly provide one with an "advantage" over students in other areas in applying to HMS.

The students at Harvard have a name for this phenomenon (Harvard undergrads going on to HMS): "preparation H" 😀

 

[asama527]

Originally posted by Charlotte York
Whoa.. whoa... you have a 3.97 GPA and a 40MCAT and you go to Penn? Somehow, I don't believe it!

I actually know a freak who had even higher stats and chose the Penn MD/PhD program over the Harvard MD/PhD program. But the guy's married and he didn't want to make his wife lose her job.

 

[asama527]

Originally posted by Sonya
I think the original questions was quite legitimate. unfortunately, this thread turned into a bunch of silly arguments. But, there are are a few answers if you sift through the junk.

Do any of you think there are schools that AVOID their own undergrads? My PI, who used to be on the WashU adcom, says he thinks they don't like WashU grads. but then, when i asked what made him think so, it was just a few anectodotal stories....

I heard the same thing about WashU. Like most of the things I post, I can't verify 🙂. However, I DO know that Cornell Med avoids Princeton grads like the plague. Princeton grads tend to do pretty well in getting one of their top choices but they're always advised against applying to Cornell.

 

[asama527]

Originally posted by acab
On a less-competitive note....

I am a senior at a public college (2nd ug degree at same school) that is very poorly ranked. I love my school and the people who study and work there. I'm very happy going there....I would love to have the reputation of an Ivy grad, but I have no loans, had great opportunities...and interviewed at a few top med schools so far (with a much lower MCAT than 40). Life experience and ability to look at your own abilities critically count a lot.

Sorry to state the obvious: "there's a lot more to life (and to adcoms) than college reputation." But Ivy name does count a lot in lots of med schools.

Definitely true about some places seriously considering BIG NAMES. UWSOM could care less. They look at MCAT, GPA and "interview score" and the computer does the rest.