Holistic experience

[Picklehead]

I am a non-traditional student and have decided that my midlife crisis will involve applying to vet school. I am currently a Biology and AP Environmental Science teacher while finishing my prerequisites and have 2 graduate degrees in science education but that’s beside the point I guess.

I am looking into getting some shadowing done because my clinic experience is from 2000-2002 and I managed a chain pet store from 2005-2006. My sister is in a Roller Thunder chapter with a local vet and I am going to be seeing about getting some time in her office. She recently left a fairly large clinic to open one focused on holistic veterinary care. I’m kind of intrigued by it and am wondering if anyone in here may have experience with this approach. Basically, is it something that vets and schools find hokey? Are vet schools currently offering training in this during DVM programs?


Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

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[pp9]

I am a non-traditional student and have decided that my midlife crisis will involve applying to vet school. I am currently a Biology and AP Environmental Science teacher while finishing my prerequisites and have 2 graduate degrees in science education but that’s beside the point I guess.

I am looking into getting some shadowing done because my clinic experience is from 2000-2002 and I managed a chain pet store from 2005-2006. My sister is in a Roller Thunder chapter with a local vet and I am going to be seeing about getting some time in her office. She recently left a fairly large clinic to open one focused on holistic veterinary care. I’m kind of intrigued by it and am wondering if anyone in here may have experience with this approach. Basically, is it something that vets and schools find hokey? Are vet schools currently offering training in this during DVM programs?


Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

Our anesthesia department head was really into acupuncture, and we have a study abroad to China for acupuncture stuff as well. We have touched on (just barely) some herbal treatments that actually work in a few lectures too, but that's the extent of it. Some vets do find aspects of holistic medicine hokey, especially essential oils.

Is it safe to assume you're aware of the debt and everything of the career?

 

[Picklehead]

Thank you, acupuncture is pretty interesting. I think a lot of what she does would be like a chiropractor and stuff. I know I stay away from the oils because of my pets- don’t want to risk anything.
The debt if definitely daunting. I’m almost done with my 10 years teaching for student loan forgiveness. I am very lucky that my husband is able to work as a contractor overseas so we are hoping to build enough savings to cover most of it. If given the opportunity I definitely wouldn’t have all these loans I have now just to live on a teacher’s income!

 

[ChoopLoops]

I am a non-traditional student and have decided that my midlife crisis will involve applying to vet school. I am currently a Biology and AP Environmental Science teacher while finishing my prerequisites and have 2 graduate degrees in science education but that’s beside the point I guess.

I am looking into getting some shadowing done because my clinic experience is from 2000-2002 and I managed a chain pet store from 2005-2006. My sister is in a Roller Thunder chapter with a local vet and I am going to be seeing about getting some time in her office. She recently left a fairly large clinic to open one focused on holistic veterinary care. I’m kind of intrigued by it and am wondering if anyone in here may have experience with this approach. Basically, is it something that vets and schools find hokey? Are vet schools currently offering training in this during DVM programs?


Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

My impression is that acupuncture, chiropractic, and cold laser are becoming more and more common as part of traditionally western medicine treatment/rehab plans. The 3 schools I toured (WSU, Oregon, and NC State) all had holistic medicine clubs. I didn't get to see the hospital at NCSU, both OSU and WSU hospitals had an integrative center (acupuncture, cold laser, chiro) as part of their rehab. My sense with the schools is that more and more students entering the programs are interested in it which is leading to schools supporting it more and more. NCSU also had a faculty led trip to China for acupuncture. I talked to some 3rd years at Oregon who were doing their acupuncture certification on their summer break. A recent WSU grad I know got hired at an integrative clinic and they're paying for her acupuncture certification.

Most of my vet clinic experience is at an integrative practice that is primarily holistic (acupuncture, chinese herbs, chiro, and cold laser). I think having that experience helped with my application because its an aspect of the breadth of vet med.

Hope that helps!

 

[LetItSnow]

I mean, it depends on what you consider 'holistic'.

There is fairly wide 'acceptance' (even though the evidence is either entirely missing or is weak) for a fair bit - acupuncture, some herbal therapy, cold laser, chiropractic.

There is fairly wide antipathy for nonsense like reiki, homeopathy, animal communicators, and things along those lines.

UMN, for instance, has an eastern practitioner who does acupuncture and herbal therapy (perhaps other modalities; I'm not sure). She offers both a class during the didactic portion of training as well as a rotation during 4th year. And they make use of multiple types of lasers in their rehab service.

I guess as someone who feels like most of it is bunk, I'd encourage you to be critical with regards to the evidence. It is astonishingly slim for most of those modalities. I think there is a lot - an overwhelming amount - of confirmation bias that occurs with holistic practices.

That said, some people feel very strongly about some of them (especially acupuncture, laser, and chiropractic), and even many western practitioners - including me - use yunnan baiyao. (But I'm always blunt with owners about the lack of evidence to support it.)

 

[Trilt]

I mean, it depends on what you consider 'holistic'.

There is fairly wide 'acceptance' (even though the evidence is either entirely missing or is weak) for a fair bit - acupuncture, some herbal therapy, cold laser, chiropractic.

There is fairly wide antipathy for nonsense like reiki, homeopathy, animal communicators, and things along those lines.

UMN, for instance, has an eastern practitioner who does acupuncture and herbal therapy (perhaps other modalities; I'm not sure). She offers both a class during the didactic portion of training as well as a rotation during 4th year.

I guess as someone who feels like most of it is bunk, I'd encourage you to be critical with regards to the evidence. It is astonishingly slim for most of those modalities. I think there is a lot - an overwhelming amount - of confirmation bias that occurs with holistic practices.

That said, some people feel very strongly about some of them (especially acupuncture, laser, and chiropractic), and even many western practitioners - including me - use yunnan baiyao. (But I'm always blunt with owners about the lack of evidence to support it.)

👍

Holistic means... a lot of different things to different people and practitioners. I'd recommend also getting experience with a more traditional vet clinic, too, as the people you encounter in a holistic clinic will likely be a slightly different population than normal GP.

We had a little bit of holistic stuff in our curriculum (I remember arguing about a question on chi and getting points back on a test, lol) but it's mostly something you'd need to search out experience in if you want more. Pretty sure the holistic vet med association has funding and a conference that's cheap for students.

 

[ChoopLoops]

Holistic means... a lot of different things to different people and practitioners. I'd recommend also getting experience with a more traditional vet clinic, too, as the people you encounter in a holistic clinic will likely be a slightly different population than normal GP.

Definitely agree with above.

 

[mmmdreamerz]

I am a non-traditional student and have decided that my midlife crisis will involve applying to vet school. I am currently a Biology and AP Environmental Science teacher while finishing my prerequisites and have 2 graduate degrees in science education but that’s beside the point I guess.

I am looking into getting some shadowing done because my clinic experience is from 2000-2002 and I managed a chain pet store from 2005-2006. My sister is in a Roller Thunder chapter with a local vet and I am going to be seeing about getting some time in her office. She recently left a fairly large clinic to open one focused on holistic veterinary care. I’m kind of intrigued by it and am wondering if anyone in here may have experience with this approach. Basically, is it something that vets and schools find hokey? Are vet schools currently offering training in this during DVM programs?


Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

I worked for a GP vet who has acupuncture and rehab certifications and uses both to compliment the general practice work. I always thought it was pretty neat stuff and it was a fun place to work. Definitely experiencing it firsthand made me far less skeptical than I had been going in. That being said no amount of anything would ever make me jump on the homeopathy or essential oils bandwagon. That’s too “out there” for me, personally.

As far as vet schools, I went to an acupuncture wet lab at school last semester that was actually sponsored by the state VMA. There’s also an integrative medicine club and an integrative medicine elective here. It’s becoming more and more mainstream.

 

[Lab Vet]

NCSU has a boarded anesthesiologist and exotics practitioner who actively promote acupuncture as alternative treatment strategies for the management of chronic pain (many different species). Cold laser is also used a fair bit, at least on the exotics side. I completed an elective course in my third year called 'Veterinary Pain and Analgesia.' One of the lectures was delivered by said anesthesiologist on acupuncture- the neuochemical theory as to why it works, and what it can/cannot be used for. NCSU also sponsors an acupuncture trip to the Chi Institute in China every year. We likewise have a holistic med club on campus. If your'e into holistic medicine, NCSU is pretty open- you'd find support for it here. I agree with LIS' statement above, though. Be very careful when recommending 'alternative' treatments to clients. Bach flower essences aren't going to cure osteosarc.

 

[Vombatidae]

I just happened to see this today about using holistic methods on some exotic animals in California after the wildfires:
Bears burned in California wildfires go holistic for pain

 

[EngrSC]

I am a non-traditional student and have decided that my midlife crisis will involve applying to vet school. I am currently a Biology and AP Environmental Science teacher while finishing my prerequisites and have 2 graduate degrees in science education but that’s beside the point I guess.

I am looking into getting some shadowing done because my clinic experience is from 2000-2002 and I managed a chain pet store from 2005-2006. My sister is in a Roller Thunder chapter with a local vet and I am going to be seeing about getting some time in her office. She recently left a fairly large clinic to open one focused on holistic veterinary care. I’m kind of intrigued by it and am wondering if anyone in here may have experience with this approach. Basically, is it something that vets and schools find hokey? Are vet schools currently offering training in this during DVM programs?


Any insight would be greatly appreciated, thank you!

I spent 5 years working part time in a small animal hospital that offers ‘holistic’ medicine and it’s fascinating! I would say the hospital practiced what I would call conservative medicine and wouldn’t push voodoo on any owner that wasn’t open to it. And even so, it was more of a blending of western medicine and holistic, not exclusively one or the other. Like in older dogs recommending a vaccine titer vs blindly vaccinating every year. They also do a lot of acupuncture for a variety of ailments (my old Lab was getting it for arthritis), cold laser therapy, and Chinese herbs. I think the blending of multiple facets is what makes it so great ... like my cat blocked 3 times, had a PU then was getting UTIs constantly so we started him on a Chinese herb that reduces bladder heat, a probiotic, and a cranberry supplement daily and now he only gets a UTI once a year rather than every 3 months.
Anyway, the vets I worked for pursued additional certifications after vet school to be able to do acupuncture and the Chinese herbs. From what I recall the acu cert is pretty pricey and A LOT of work!

 

[DVMDream]

I mean, it depends on what you consider 'holistic'.

There is fairly wide 'acceptance' (even though the evidence is either entirely missing or is weak) for a fair bit - acupuncture, some herbal therapy, cold laser, chiropractic.

There is fairly wide antipathy for nonsense like reiki, homeopathy, animal communicators, and things along those lines.

UMN, for instance, has an eastern practitioner who does acupuncture and herbal therapy (perhaps other modalities; I'm not sure). She offers both a class during the didactic portion of training as well as a rotation during 4th year. And they make use of multiple types of lasers in their rehab service.

I guess as someone who feels like most of it is bunk, I'd encourage you to be critical with regards to the evidence. It is astonishingly slim for most of those modalities. I think there is a lot - an overwhelming amount - of confirmation bias that occurs with holistic practices.

That said, some people feel very strongly about some of them (especially acupuncture, laser, and chiropractic), and even many western practitioners - including me - use yunnan baiyao. (But I'm always blunt with owners about the lack of evidence to support it.)

I have mentioned yunnan baiyao to clients because why not? Definitely am blunt about lack of evidence but not going to hurt the pet and might help.

I have referred a few really bad arthritic pets for acupuncture. I am on the fence about if it works or not. I currently liken it to tramadol, might work for some but not for others and if I am willing to try tramadol on an arthritic pet, why not acupuncture?

The rest of the crap, I just think is BS. And was thoroughly disappointed when the vet school hired a vet that pushes reiki and homeopathy. I was so fed up with her talking about "look at the tongue, it will tell you if something is wrong with the liver/brain/kidneys/adrenals"... no, no it will not. (**exception of renal ulcerations**) This vet also screamed at a vet student that Cushing's does not cause PU/PD. I was never more excited to be done with a rotation.

 

[pp9]

I have mentioned yunnan baiyao to clients because why not? Definitely am blunt about lack of evidence but not going to hurt the pet and might help.

I have referred a few really bad arthritic pets for acupuncture. I am on the fence about if it works or not. I currently liken it to tramadol, might work for some but not for others and if I am willing to try tramadol on an arthritic pet, why not acupuncture?

The rest of the crap, I just think is BS. And was thoroughly disappointed when the vet school hired a vet that pushes reiki and homeopathy. I was so fed up with her talking about "look at the tongue, it will tell you if something is wrong with the liver/brain/kidneys/adrenals"... no, no it will not. (**exception of renal ulcerations**) This vet also screamed at a vet student that Cushing's does not cause PU/PD. I was never more excited to be done with a rotation.

I feel like if a school is going to teach homeopathy, they should make a point that the homeopathic lessons shouldn't directly contradict the traditional medicine lessons.

 

[LetItSnow]

Definitely am blunt about lack of evidence but not going to hurt the pet and might help.

Maybe not going to hurt them. Until they get some bad batch of contaminated stuff since it's not a regulated medication.

Definitely am blunt about lack of evidence but not going to hurt the pet and might help.

The rest of the crap, I just think is BS. And was thoroughly disappointed when the vet school hired a vet that pushes reiki and homeopathy. I was so fed up with her talking about "look at the tongue, it will tell you if something is wrong with the liver/brain/kidneys/adrenals"... no, no it will not. (**exception of renal ulcerations**) This vet also screamed at a vet student that Cushing's does not cause PU/PD. I was never more excited to be done with a rotation.[/QUOTE]

Did you actually have to do a holistic rotation?? Or was that just added into IntMed or something?

 

[Caiter92]

I feel like if a school is going to teach homeopathy, they should make a point that the homeopathic lessons shouldn't directly contradict the traditional medicine lessons.

Your school teaches homeopathy? As in, the more diluted something is, the stronger the “essence” is and more effective it is?

I think teaching Eastern medicine, especially the things where there is some evidence and research that it can be effective for some patients is great since so many clients are wanting a more “intergrative” approach. But teaching straight up homeopathy at a Vet school is a little much.

 

[DVMDream]

Did you actually have to do a holistic rotation?? Or was that just added into IntMed or something?

No. It was the new clinician for general practice rotation. She was insane. So many stories. She corned me in ICU once when I was on the ER/ICU rotation and we had about 45132424 other things going on in order to tell me how I am to address and talk to her cat patient (not her personal cat). And that I need to be nice to him. There was a dying dog next to the cat (only remember this because that dog case is forever sealed into my memory). About 5 exam rooms with clients waiting for the ER clinician. My multiple patients I was currently dealing with and she could not leave the entire ICU staff including students alone because she insisted on instructed us on how to talk to the cat.

Along with the being wrong on multiple aspects of medicine the Cushing's thing was just one example, toss in the reiki and homeopathy and her and I did not get along well.

 

[pp9]

Your school teaches homeopathy? As in, the more diluted something is, the stronger the “essence” is and more effective it is?

I think teaching Eastern medicine, especially the things where there is some evidence and research that it can be effective for some patients is great since so many clients are wanting a more “intergrative” approach. But teaching straight up homeopathy at a Vet school is a little much.

No, I was referring to DVMD's comment about her homeopathy-pushing clinician.

 

[LetItSnow]

No. It was the new clinician for general practice rotation. She was insane. So many stories. She corned me in ICU once when I was on the ER/ICU rotation and we had about 45132424 other things going on in order to tell me how I am to address and talk to her cat patient (not her personal cat). And that I need to be nice to him. There was a dying dog next to the cat (only remember this because that dog case is forever sealed into my memory). About 5 exam rooms with clients waiting for the ER clinician. My multiple patients I was currently dealing with and she could not leave the entire ICU staff including students alone because she insisted on instructed us on how to talk to the cat.

Along with the being wrong on multiple aspects of medicine the Cushing's thing was just one example, toss in the reiki and homeopathy and her and I did not get along well.

That's ... crazy.

My feelings on the majority of 'holistic' practices can be summed up by noting that almost none of those therapies are used in a widespread fashion in emergency medicine.

If they were so great, they should be.

But the fact is, they work best in situations where the outcome is difficult to measure (or, at least, the holistic therapy's contribution to the outcome is difficult to assess), because then it's easier to claim that they had some efficacy.

 

[Picklehead]

I’m sorry, life happened and I completely forgot to thank you all for your input. It’s been really enlightening to read about some of your experiences and opinions. I found her website and she lists things like ‘ treatments as, proper nutrition, “adjusting”, low level laser, massage, homeopathics, herbal supplements, acupuncture, vaccines and more’ so maybe she isn’t too crazy. I will be seeing about spending some time with her office and also looking into a more traditional or even emergency clinic as well.

Thanks again!