Homosexuality and (un-)masculinized brain structure: 3rd month of Pregnancy

[MalePreg]

---

Members do not see this ad.

Hello,

I am currently seeking detailed knowledge of how homosexuality is shaped through biological processes. All I know is the generic fact that it occurs during the 3rd month of pregnancy when brain structure is differentiating into its specific sex.

Some of the specific things I am hoping to find out are -

1 - What part of the brain is (understood to be) involved in sexual orientation and sexual behavior of the sexes?
2 - What are the specific hormones involved in shaping brain structure?
3 - Is there a specific set time during the 3rd month of pregnancy when it all happens? What is specific step-by-step process in how it happens?
4 - Do the hormones that shape a male brain affect other areas of fetal development? If so, how is it possible for males to keep a feminized brain structure but have a masculinized physiology?

Any professional/medical answer to these questions (and perhaps anything else you feel might be good to know) would greatly help in my work to educate people who are unaware of how homosexuality biologically works. Thanks greatly!


~~~Tony~~~
Supporter of Male Pregnancy and Male Lactation




edit - I realized that this is posted to the wrong forum. Please move this thread to the psychology or neurology forum (or any forum deemed more appropriate for this topic). Thanks.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Hello,

I am currently seeking detailed knowledge of how homosexuality is shaped through biological processes. All I know is the generic fact that it occurs during the 3rd month of pregnancy when brain structure is differentiating into its specific sex.

Some of the specific things I am hoping to find out are -

1 - What part of the brain is (understood to be) involved in sexual orientation and sexual behavior of the sexes? Dimorphic Nuceli of the Hypoyhalamus
2 - What are the specific hormones involved in shaping brain structure?
All of them, human growth factor is big in neural migration. But neural plasticity is complicated
3 - Is there a specific set time during the 3rd month of pregnancy when it all happens? What is specific step-by-step process in how it happens?
We don't know. We know prenatal factors are involved.
4 - Do the hormones that shape a male brain affect other areas of fetal development? If so, how is it possible for males to keep a feminized brain structure but have a masculinized physiology?
You're over simplifying things and making anthropomorphic assumptions. It's not that gays have feminized brains. Though they do have differences in dimorphic nuceli, which are in related to sex specific behaviors. But not to sexual characteristics, ie ablasion of this area in mice produces opposite sex characterstics or so.

Any professional/medical answer to these questions (and perhaps anything else you feel might be good to know) would greatly help in my work to educate people who are unaware of how homosexuality biologically works. Thanks greatly!



~~~Tony~~~
Supporter of Male Pregnancy and Male Lactation




edit - I realized that this is posted to the wrong forum. Please move this thread to the psychology or neurology forum (or any forum deemed more appropriate for this topic). Thanks.

Educating people about the biology of human sexuality would require 3 prior years of education tbh. Keep it simple and say that prenatal factors, genetic factors, etc play into this. And keep the feminized brain stuff out of it because its not true as a whole and breeds negative views.

 

[MalePreg]

feminized brain stuff out...its not true as a whole

Your sources, please.

and breeds negative views.

Well, needless to say, the whole topic of homosexuality is not a very pleasant one anyways; not for those who already hold said-negative views.



edit - I just actually realized that you responded to each of my points (in a rather dismissive manner, mind you).

1 - What part of the brain is (understood to be) involved in sexual orientation and sexual behavior of the sexes? Dimorphic Nuceli of the Hypoyhalamus Thanks, I shall look into that
2 - What are the specific hormones involved in shaping brain structure?
All of them, human growth factor is big in neural migration. But neural plasticity is complicated Very good. Now please take the time to explain them to the best of your knowledge, especially those important in shaping sexual differentiation in human neurology. That's why I created this thread to begin with: to understand much of how it works.
3 - Is there a specific set time during the 3rd month of pregnancy when it all happens? What is specific step-by-step process in how it happens?
We don't know. We know prenatal factors are involved.
4 - Do the hormones that shape a male brain affect other areas of fetal development? If so, how is it possible for males to keep a feminized brain structure but have a masculinized physiology?
You're over simplifying things and making anthropomorphic assumptions. No I'm not. I'm basing my information on loose casual research I have done in the past, hoping to learn more as I gradually become more interested and involved in the subject. Would you really call countless obvservations of GNC behaviour in many homosexual males as well as those researches that found notable general differences in hearing, spatio and verbal patterns between homosexual and heterosexual males to be "anthropomophic?" (Not that I agree with your figurative use of the terminology.)
It's not that gays have feminized brains. Again, I would love to see your resources (an online link or two, a record of labwork, etc.); because they seem to differ from mine. (As a note of clarification, I didn't say gays have female brains; just that, on average, they're more feminized than the quintessential male's) Though they do have differences in dimorphic nuceli, which are in related to sex specific behaviors. But not to sexual characteristics, ie ablasion of this area in mice produces opposite sex characterstics or so.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

1 - What part of the brain is (understood to be) involved in sexual orientation and sexual behavior of the sexes? Dimorphic Nuceli of the Hypoyhalamus Thanks, I shall look into that
2 - What are the specific hormones involved in shaping brain structure?
All of them, human growth factor is big in neural migration. But neural plasticity is complicated Very good. Now please take the time to explain them to the best of your knowledge,especially those important in shaping sexual differentiation in human neurology. That's why I created this thread to begin with: to understand much of how it works.

I don't know, nor do I really think anyone knows mostly because we don't know how to measure this since we don't know what sexuality is or whether someone who is straight is just a person who is more heterosexual than homosexual or etc. Thus we're creating fundamentally flawed databases based on self-report responses from people who can skew your results.

3 - Is there a specific set time during the 3rd month of pregnancy when it all happens? What is specific step-by-step process in how it happens?
We don't know. We know prenatal factors are involved.
4 - Do the hormones that shape a male brain affect other areas of fetal development? If so, how is it possible for males to keep a feminized brain structure but have a masculinized physiology?

You're over simplifying things and making anthropomorphic assumptions. No I'm not. I'm basing my information on loose casual research I have done in the past, hoping to learn more as I gradually become more interested and involved in the subject. Would you really call countless obvservations of GNC behaviour in many homosexual males as well as those researches that found notable general differences in hearing, spatio and verbal patterns between homosexual and heterosexual males to be "anthropomophic?" (Not that I agree with your figurative use of the terminology.)

So your observation is that gays are different because a lot of them are flaming queens? No, I'm curious what your measures are to determine these differences and relating them to actual valuable conclusions in saying that gays are somehow biological distinct as opposed to a true control.

It's not that gays have feminized brains. Again, I would love to see your resources (an online link or two, a record of labwork, etc.); because they seem to differ from mine. (As a note of clarification, I didn't say gays have female brains; just that, on average, they're more feminized than the quintessential male's) Though they do have differences in dimorphic nuceli, which are in related to sex specific behaviors. But not to sexual characteristics, ie ablasion of this area in mice produces opposite sex characterstics or so.

Again, what does more feminine brain even mean? They produce equivalent outputs of testosterone to the average male. I mean really, you're entire basis of dispute is that they seem different thus must have different brain structures. No really, what is your evidence and measures? What is your sample?

I mean this all not to mention the fact that you're going off the notion that homosexuality is all or nothing. Chances are human sexuality is far far more liquid thus pushing me to believe that any active analysis of large populations would lead to non-significant data. But anyways, again, feminization of the brain is a misnomer and has negative connotations

 

[MBellows]

I mean this all not to mention the fact that you're going off the notion that homosexuality is all or nothing. Chances are human sexuality is far far more liquid thus pushing me to believe that any active analysis of large populations would lead to non-significant data. But anyways, again, feminization of the brain is a misnomer and has negative connotations

I'm now curious what the OP's theories are about the brain structures of bisexual individuals and their explanation for how there can be extremely masculine gays and extremely effeminate straight males. The issue with trying to come up with an idea of brain structure as an explanation for these variables is that a structural causality would imply that this degree of variability would be nonexistent. Further, a structural causality would also not allow for any cultural variances in masculine and feminine behaviors or sexuality.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm now curious what the OP's theories are about the brain structures of bisexual individuals and their explanation for how there can be extremely masculine gays and extremely effeminate straight males. The issue with trying to come up with an idea of brain structure as an explanation for these variables is that a structural causality would imply that this degree of variability would be nonexistent. Further, a structural causality would also not allow for any cultural variances in masculine and feminine behaviors or sexuality.

Because the only structural differences found so far are linked to differences in sexual behavior ( i.e lardosis v.s mounting in mice). It has nothing to do with other functions like secondary sex characteristics, cognitive capacities, etc. The whole feminisation comment is basically the sloppy assertion that there's estrogen or changes throughout the brain to be similar to females and honestly so far all I've heard is that there is some behavioral evidence from likely a very limited population of gay men ( Research on gay men usually sucks because researchers usually end up recruiting from a very very conservative and ungeneralizable population i.e 18-25 black, inner city, club going 'twinks'.

 

[MalePreg]

I'm guessing I'm speaking to an audience of politically-charged individuals?

Then again, perhaps the responsibility is mine, since I made this post about homosexuality when my actual primary focus was to learn about brain structure. Homosexuality was merely the side note that could be discarded if needed.

I'm guessing that matter what I ask in regards to the topic, it all comes back to "there's hardly any sufficient evidence between the difference in male and female brain structures", right? That, my "observations" (a-quote, a-quote) are based on nothing but outward trivial displays of behavior (effeminate twinks from bars, flamboyant flamers, butch construction workers, complaining housewives who wear too much make-up, etc. etc.), right?

...you're going off the notion that homosexuality is all or nothing.

No. I'm not. Who's making that assumption but you?

Gay people have homosxuality, bisexual people have homosexuality. Straight-bisexuals have homosexuality. Some straight people have experimented with homosexuality.

Chances are human sexuality is far far more liquid

As I believe myself. But no matter, I'm talking about brain structure. Whether or whether not homosexuality is somehow linked to it is beyond me, but my focus was on male and female brain structure. (not to be confused with how women and men unanimously behave)

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

I'm guessing I'm speaking to an audience of politically-charged individuals?

Then again, perhaps the responsibility is mine, since I made this post about homosexuality when my actual primary focus was to learn about brain structure. Homosexuality was merely the side note that could be discarded if needed.

I'm guessing that matter what I ask in regards to the topic, it all comes back to "there's hardly any sufficient evidence between the difference in male and female brain structures", right? That, my "observations" (a-quote, a-quote) are based on nothing but outward trivial displays of behavior (effeminate twinks from bars, flamboyant flamers, butch construction workers, complaining housewives who wear too much make-up, etc. etc.), right?




No. I'm not. Who's making that assumption but you?

Gay people have homosxuality, bisexual people have homosexuality. Straight-bisexuals have homosexuality. Some straight people have experimented with homosexuality.



As I believe myself. But no matter, I'm talking about brain structure. Whether or whether not homosexuality is somehow linked to it is beyond me, but my focus was on male and female brain structure. (not to be confused with how women and men unanimously behave)

So now it's a minor part of your motivation despite having conducted "loosely causal experiments"? I'm not sure what you're really interested in tbh. Regardless, I've made my comment, behaviorally and structurally the differences between homosexuals and heterosexuals is minor/ negligible.
Developmentally your question of why certain behaviors may be more feminine ( Lardosis induced or human homolog) despite other parts of the human body being masculine is easy to answer. Homo & Heterosexuals both have SRY genes and produce similar testosterone amounts which leads to similar structures all around and does not affect the brain structure. Likewise gay men are not converting testosterone into higher amounts of estradiol or estrogen.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

All I'm saying is drop the feminized brain comments because the whole notion of femininity v.s masculinity is very difficult to conclude as being objective in neuroscience and even in human biology. Likewise in this context it breeds the connotation that there is an abnormal estrogen/testosterone system in place.

 

[MalePreg]

(double posted)

 

[MalePreg]

Do you know how painful it is to talk to half-comprehending individuals?

Question: How are the female and male brains developed in utero? Can you answer this informatively or not?

There is a lot in common between human sexes, whatever ones may there be, but it remains that some form of biological masculinization and feminization exists, whether you like to believe it or not.

 

[Goobernut]

OP, I just wanted to stop in and say you probably not get the discussion you are searching for here. Not because we disagree or agree with your statement, but generally asking for medical knowledge or opinion is something that violates the TOS for the forum. Sometimes people will ask for article suggestions to point them in a direction so they can research it on their own, but not for the forum to explain an entire area of research as you have requested.

I would suggest making friends with a great librarian and having them assist you with your literature search. Also, any research area involving sexuality/brain development is probably hotly debated, and there is most likely no one exact answer to give you.

For example, I just read a critique of LGBTQ research saying that it has mostly been on white gay men over 35, rather than on the demographic that serenade described. I'm not saying he's wrong, it's just to illustrate its going to be hard to nail down an answer to your question on this forum. For every professional you interview there will likely be a different answer.

Good luck with your research.

 

[Drrrrrr. Celty]

Do you know how painful it is to talk to half-comprehending individuals?

Question: How are the female and male brains developed in utero? Can you answer this informatively or not?

There is a lot in common between human sexes, whatever ones may there be, but it remains that some form of biological masculinization and feminization exists, whether you like to believe it or not.

No, I don't. My knowledge is more cellular than systemic.

Yes, there is masculinization and feminization. However there's no evidence that homosexuality is the feminization of the brain, this implies receptor density changes, systemic modifications that produce alternative downstream effects, etc. All of which must be mediated through testosterone or estragen to be called masculinzation or feminization. This not to also mention that there is some evidence that the testosterone system is upregulated in homosexuals which would imply that homosexuality is actually the quote on quote masculinization of the brain ( What ever that means, female v.s males structurally aren't all that different.

Regardless, I disagree with the premise of significant difference because I am skeptical and you have not provided any evidence. Anyways, if you're interested I recommend speaking with a developmental biologist, though likely you'll obtain a similar answer to what I said.

 

[MalePreg]

Yes, there is masculinization and feminization. However there's no evidence that homosexuality is the feminization of the brain.

Let me tell you what this is, serenade. You're stuck on a petty nuance of "feminization" implied in the phrase, "feminization of brain," which wasn't completely the focus to begin with. What I care about is brain structural differences, which many sources have suggest that there is a difference of between gay and straight men. (Aspects of the brain as the Superchiasmastic nucleus, the anterior commisure, grey matter, etc.) You cannot deny that these research have substantial merit; and, even you seem to be admitting this at least somewhat.

This not to also mention that there is some evidence that the testosterone system is upregulated in homosexuals which would imply that homosexuality is actually the quote on quote masculinization of the brain

Well, the point of fact, though, is that it's biological, isn't it?
My original 'quiry still stands.

I would suggest making friends with a great librarian and having them assist you with your literature search. Also, any research area involving sexuality/brain development is probably hotly debated, and there is most likely no one exact answer to give you.

I realized this, goobernut. I've actually started to do a lot of research on my own and found much helpful information on brain development, coming to think that I should have simply done this at the start and not rely on online convenience (which brought me to create this thread).

And, thank you.