Honesty

[strive]

Why are so many of the people who post on this BB willing to openly discuss their lies in attempting to gain acceptance to medical school? I find it very disturbing and I hope that others agree.

Doesn't anyone feel the slightest twinge of shame that you have allowed your integrity to be compromised because you THINK that there is some theoretical advantage to misrepresenting yourself to an admissions committee?

How about the honor that comes from truthfully, thoughtfully and accurately representing yourself to others despite the potential that their opinion is different than yours?

It is disturbing that most posters see no shame in lying to people that will someday be their peers. Give the interviewers credit, imagine that they might like to hear a differing view. They might enjoy being challenged. Or they might respect your differences.

Is it possible that the opposite will happen? Yes. But, do you want to begin your career as a non-thinking conformist or as a future leader for progressive improvement in healthcare?

---

Members don't see this ad.

 

[Smile]

please provide some examples. i'm not sure i remember anyone talking about specifically lying to the admissions committees on this message board.

 

[strive]

A specific example is from the UNECOM string where a member states that it is a joke at UNECOM that everyone is going to practice family medicine in rural Maine.

I know that I have seen multiple allusions to this over the past few months. Also, I am sure that my feelings are also a response to applicants thoughts from other BB's and people that I know.

 

[Poet]

Hi Strive,

Well, I have every intention of practicing in New England, hopefully for the rest of my life so you can be sure that there ARE those of us out there that aren't lying

I think I got put on hold at another school because I stated this on their secondary and they wanted people to practice in their state upon graduating. But thats ok, whatever is meant to be will be and your absolutely right.. honesty = integrity and thats a very important quality to have as a doc!!

Good luck to everyone

 

[RAM#48]

Strive....Relax

Most folks do give interviewers a lot of credit. They can probably see thru folks pretty easily. Unless you are a superstar, it is pretty silly to say you definitely want to go into a specialty. In fact, I think it is pretty silly for anyone to think that they KNOW what they are going to specialize in, before they even step foot into medical school. I have a very good idea of what I will pursue due to my background, but I want to experience it all before I make up my mind.

Now it is also pretty silly to say that you are dead set on being a primary care physician in a rural underserved area, unless you have the background to back it up. I interviewed at a rural school this fall. One of the gals who was there with me on interview day told the intervieweres that she wanted to practice in a rural underserved area. This coming from someone who has lived their entire life in a very large metropolis. Yeah right, sure you do.

I told them likely family practice, but I wasn't completely sure. It is all part of the process. Be honest, don't lie - but realize that there are certain responses that go over better than others.

It is like this throughout life - resumes and job interviews. You are there to trumpet yourself. Take the smallest activity or accomplishment and run with it.

 

[ReneeWB]

I believe this post was in response to my reply to someone about UNECOM. I am a first year and I stated that it was a big joke among my classmates and professors that ALL of us are going to do primary care in rural Maine. I did not promote lying; if you are totally uncomfortable with the idea of rural primary care then you probably won't be interested in coming to school here. However, there are 113 in my class, and statistics show that a very small percentage of each graduating class actually stays in Maine. A great many do stay in New England mostly because most of the students are from New England and want to settle there after graduation. The school does show preference to New England residents. I knew prior to applying to UNECOM that they place a great emphasis on primary care and rural practice. I am not averse to either one, and I let that be known in my interview. Whether it made a difference in my being accepted, I have no idea. Lying is one thing; finding out about emphasis of a school's curriculum and showing a willingness to go in that direction during the interview is another. I still believe that getting into medical school is a lot like a game. There simply aren't enough spaces for all the applicants -- something has to be used as a ruler.

Good luck to all of you!

Renee

 

[Smile]

renee,

i know you said you did not promote lying, but then what did you exactly mean when you said in another string, "if all applicants who gain admission were as fantastic as their applications make them sound.....WOW!" this certainly implies that an applicant is having to essentially lie about his/her actual accomplishments to impress the admissions committees, that an applicant really does not possess the characteristics portrayed in the application. it is truly unfortunate when applicants misrepresent themselves as such just to gain a seat. but then again, this is the world of competitive cutthroat pre-meds, who will often stop at nothing just to get into medical school!

 

[strive]

I think that it is important to realize that when we make seemingly benign exagerations, etc. in order to "compete" in the "cut-throat" world of medicine, we are actually starting to rationalize our diminishing personal standards.

I do not intend to point out any particular member of the BB as being any more or less guilty, however, I think that these attitudes are more insidious than many understand. I initiated this string to spur a little thought about the topic of our personal standards.From personal experience, the farther we go in medicine the more our integrity will be challenged.

Thanks for your comments.

 

[ReneeWB]

I give! You guys are obviously too pristine for me. I have always believed that during interviews (for jobs, school or whatever), that you have to sell yourself. To me that means that you play up your good points and strategically avoid your bad ones. Sorry if this offends some of you, but so far it has worked for me. I consider myself to have pretty high standards (morals), but I guess that's relative. I'm interested to know how many of you have actually lived in the world on your own, held down jobs, etc. etc. Also how many of you have received acceptances to med school. I went through the process twice, and it wasn't until I learned how to "play the admissions game" that I was accepted. So, that is my final word. Enough of the sermons, you guys!

If you are here to blast other people, please go to the TPR site. I'd hate to see this BB go in that direction.

Back to finals!

 

[RAM#48]

ReneeWB, I have to agree with you. I am in a terminal master's degree program where most folks are seeking professional employment after graduation this spring. Plus everyone, including myself went through the search process for an internship last summer. I have seen literally hundreds of resumes, cover letters, and been involved in a number of interviews, interview workshops, etc.

You ARE selling yourself - this is just how it works in the med school admission process (I have 4 acceptances) and the "real world" seeking employment.

 

[Dave]

I also agree ReneeWB. I wish it did not have to be that way but when individuals are talking up their credentials, it makes it necessary for everyone else to as well. Other wise we are at a disadvantage.

 

[ReneeWB]

Thanks to Ram #48 and Dave for your support!

Renee

 

[UHS2002]

Go for it ReneeWB! I agree with you too!

I used to be very dumb about "showing myself in the best possible light" and always thought that I should be humble about my accomplishments. I wasn't getting anywhere, fast or slow. Then a friend, who has tons of experience in the professional world, including interviewing people for jobs with her company, told me that I didn't have a FAIR chance to compete because everyone out there is NOT shy about pointing out their strengths. I had lots of things going for me but I always said "oh, this, it is not a big deal, anyone could have done it..." until she pointed out that I should let the interviewers decide whether it was a big accomplishment or whether "just anyone else could have done it". She was right!!!!

There are a lot of jokes at UHS too, by faculty, about all of us wanting to be "primary care docs". They are the folks on the admission committee and they are NOT STUPID! They know this is going on, but they also know that when we say "oh yeah, I am sooo interested in primary care" we are basically entering a tacit agreement with the school, acknowledging that we are aware that this is the school's emphasis and that we will abide by this, at least for the time our education lasts. In the meantime, the school will have an opportunity to show us how great primary care is and, perhaps, some of the students who set out wanting to become surgeons will end up deciding to become family docs.

When I started med school I had a vague knowledge of OMT and what attracted me to DO school was more the general atmosphere, the fact that the student body is usually very diverse and, yes!, the emphasis on primary care (which was always my interest). Luckly for me, I wasn't asked very prying questions about my knowledge and faith on the benefits of OMT, so I didn't have to fib...
Now, thanks to being given the chance to learn it and use it, and see it used by the folks who really know what they are doing, I am a great believer in the efficacy of OMT. Moral of the story, people can and do change their minds, particularly when involved in a learning process.

 

[Matt2BeADO]

Dear strive,

I have just finished reading your post to and am quite disturbed. I am also a student at UNECOM and happen to know Renee personally.

I am disgusted to read your comments regarding her post on a different string. It is apparent from your post that you lack some of the very qualities you are so desperately seeking in your future classmates. Someone with "integrity" does not accuse someone of lying to get into medical school, especially someone whom they have never met.

The reality of the admissions situation is clearly illustrated in other post on this string. In my opinion one should leave all options open when deciding which area of medicine to enter after the completion of ones medical education. What is asked of a UNECOM student is that we remain open to the idea of practicing primary care in New England. UNECOM ranked in the top 50 primary care schools in last April's issue of U.S. News and World Report. I believe this is a testament to our commitment to primary care. Do some people change their mind? Yes. Are there students in my class you will not enter primary care? Yes. Are there students in my class you made it clear during the interview process that they wished to pursue other areas of medicine besides primary care? Yes. Are these examples of a lack of integrity? NO!

If you feel so strongly about this issue I invite you to come to UNECOM and stand in front of Renee and the rest of my classmates and question our integrity or commitment to helping others. I am sure you would be well received!

Sincerely,
Matt

[This message has been edited by Matt2BeADO (edited 12-14-1999).]

 

[Smile]

renee,

i did not mean to "attack" you or your comments if you took it that way. i agreed w/ what you said. but my whole point is that there is a big difference between one selling himself and highlighting their self-accomplishments vs actually lying. no doubt you have to sell yourself in your interviews and point out what makes you unique. if you don't do that, chances are you will get a thin envelope in the mail soon after. but people who lie in their interviews, ie talk about accomplishments they never participated in, are truly bringing down the integrity of both applicants and future physicians. there is a distinction between the two and we must try to protect the honor of the medical profession by not engaging in falsities from the very beginning of the medical education process.

 

[strive]

My final thoughts on this string are that I still believe we as future physicians are too willing to try to justify behavior because of the eventual "good" that will come of it. Many people have seemed to rally around the concept that since "most" students for graduate school, medical school, etc. are doggedly competing for limited opportunities it is ok to alter our values. I firmly disagree.

Knowing that it might seem contentious, a lie is a lie. There is really no middle ground. I hope that this string will at least cause some of us to think briefly before we next exagerate our statements, etc.

Finally, in no way do I think that I have some moral superiority as some have suggested. I am just holding up what I think is an ideal that we should all strive for, instead of lowering our standards to those we can easily achieve.

 

[Matt2BeADO]

Dear strive,

Take a deep breath...get of your high horse for a minute and read "smiles" last post. NO ONE has stated that they gave false information during their interview/application process. We all would agree that such a thing would be wrong. You have missed the point regarding the distinction between what Renee was describing and giving outright false information. Go back and read some of the comments posted on this thread...you might learn something!


Matt

 

[carmstrong]

Why is everyone so angry? Whether I agree or not, it seems that the initial post was just asking a question based on a comment made. I don't know why you feel that she was attacking you integrity Matt, she was asking a question in response to a comment made. She raises a good point. I think we have established the fact that there is a difference between selling yourself and highlighting your accomplishments, compared to adding things, or claiming things that you have never participated in. However, it seems that we are lumping exagerations or even fibs into the "selling yourself" category. Being willing to study at a school which focuses on primary care when you have your sites set on a specialty is one thing, but claiming that you want to practice family medicine in small town USA just b/c this is what the admissions committee wants to hear is another. Before someone looking to get mad tries to apply this as an attack on them, I am just using this as an arbitrary example. It is not directed at anyone specific. This seems like the same thing that hard-line DO students hate about the MD wannabees. They tell the admissions committees what they need to hear even though none of it is true. They are only using it as a backup, but they do some research on osteopathic medicine and say all the right things. They sing the praises of osteopathic medicine, while in the back of their mind it is just a safety net. This would annoy most of us, just like some of the falsehoods annoy those who try to convey their true desires whether it may fit into the range of what the admissions committee wants to hear.

 

[Doctor TRuth]

Strive what you need is a little TLC from
Doctor TRuth.....

------------------
Khan