Hope waning. Please help

[hopefulatacrossroad]

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Too much personal info

 

[tankaer]

Obviously I'm not you and haven't read your essays but make sure you are accentuating the positive. It's not about how bad things were it's about how you triumph over adversity. Same goes for interviews.

Academics: I would think an MPH could bolster your app but maybe not as much as a solid post bacc. Look for a post bacc with a linkage to a med school and/or ideally results in a masters degree (MS of some sort). The masters degree part allows it to qualify for federal student loans where as a certificate program will not. Then you'll have a separate post bacc GPA and when you do well in it you can showcase that upward trajectory. I had a low undergrad GPA. I went with a non degree post bacc with a linkage but that was purely out of geographic convenience. I just got an acceptance to an excellent state side school. Good luck!

 

[Gurby]

I'm a nontraditional student who graduated in 2010 with something like a 2.7 GPA. Over the course of the years, I managed to scrape together around 50-55 quarter units of a decent upper division GPA (3.7) while working full time.

However, at the end of it, this raised my gpa, by .1. That's right. Clearly speaks to how many credit hours I had to begin with.

I'm currently finishing up what I believe will be an unsuccessful application. My second one. (MD and DO)

Ultimately, I can blame the fact that financially I wasn't able to apply until September, but what I think it just keeps coming down to is that uGPA.

Although I had some small successes: screened into schools like Mayo, Wake, Wayne, I haven't heard from them

I'm preparing earlier than I did back in 2012 (my last application) and looking forward, still think I have several options that might keep the hope alive. However, for the past 5 years, I've been jerry-rigging this entire process, hoping by sheer willpower I could make it work. I realize now, that I need help. Can I ask for some advice/insight as to which plan may be my best bet?

You have a sub-3.0 GPA.
You're a reapplicant.
You shot yourself in the foot by applying extremely late.
You likely applied to many unrealistic schools (the fact that you even considered Mayo is surprising).

The usual prescription for your situation is: retake all C's, D's and F's to bring your GPA over 3.0 at DO schools (grade replacement). Apply early and broadly to DO schools. Given your solid MCAT, upward GPA trend, background, etc, you should have a lot of success if you just go about this a bit more carefully. Spend some time reading SDN to see what others have done.

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

You have a sub-3.0 GPA.
You're a reapplicant.
You shot yourself in the foot by applying extremely late.
You likely applied to many unrealistic schools (the fact that you even considered Mayo is surprising).

The usual prescription for your situation is: retake all C's, D's and F's to bring your GPA over 3.0 at DO schools (grade replacement). Apply early and broadly to DO schools. Given your solid MCAT, upward GPA trend, background, etc, you should have a lot of success if you just go about this a bit more carefully. Spend some time reading SDN to see what others have done.

But not as surprising as them considering me, eh? Must not be as hopeless as it appears 😉. Thanks for taking the time to read and weigh in 🙂

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

Obviously I'm not you and haven't read your essays but make sure you are accentuating the positive. It's not about how bad things were it's about how you triumph over adversity. Same goes for interviews.

Academics: I would think an MPH could bolster your app but maybe not as much as a solid post bacc. Look for a post bacc with a linkage to a med school and/or ideally results in a masters degree (MS of some sort). The masters degree part allows it to qualify for federal student loans where as a certificate program will not. Then you'll have a separate post bacc GPA and when you do well in it you can showcase that upward trajectory. I had a low undergrad GPA. I went with a non degree post bacc with a linkage but that was purely out of geographic convenience. I just got an acceptance to an excellent state side school. Good luck!

Thank you, I really appreciate hearing from folks who've been there. As far as essays go, i think that was my downfall in my first application but this go around i really tried to focus on my strengths. But hey, maybe it just wasn't my time.

As far as the academics go, there are so many options and I've really just been trying my best to do what feels right and what I can do passionately. It seemed time to reach out and ask for advice. Thank you for sharing some really solid words of wisdom from someone who has been there!

 

[buttman]

I think it is your late application date more than anything. Did you not apply to any DO schools the first time around?

Hi all,

I apologize in advance for being a new user who is launching into requests right away. I hope to one day be o the other end, and be advising someone in my shoes. But for now, I am hoping there's someone out there with some advice for me.

I'm a nontraditional student who graduated in 2010 with something like a 2.7 GPA. Over the course of the years, I managed to scrape together around 50-55 quarter units of a decent upper division GPA (3.7) while working full time.

However, at the end of it, this raised my gpa, by .1. That's right. Clearly speaks to how many credit hours I had to begin with.

I'm currently finishing up what I believe will be an unsuccessful application. My second one. (MD and DO)

Ultimately, I can blame the fact that financially I wasn't able to apply until September, but what I think it just keeps coming down to is that uGPA.

It just will never rise above a 3.0 without a 2nd bachelors or something of the like.

Although I had some small successes: screened into schools like Mayo, Wake, Wayne, I haven't heard from them. I'm also a CA resident and over-represented, and not a single CA school would deem me worthy of a secondary (I don't blame them.)

There are reasons for my UGPA: undiagnosed ADHD, first generation student from an economically disadvantaged home. As much as I would have liked to take a time out during undergrad, going home was not an option- I was lucky to have made it out. Long story short: domestic violence.

For my first application, I leaned heavily on this "unique" story. However, for this second time around, I really tried to frame my application around my extensive research experience. I have worked in a couple of heavy hitting research specialties at a top 10 school in the past years and been involved in some ground breaking work. Because I have focused heavily on the clinical side, I have also had the opportunity to "shadow" by default, and have had a great deal of clinical exposure myself. However, I only have 1 publication and 1 presentation.

I have also volunteered for 4 years as a mental healthworker at a free clinic. There, I have taken on a leadership role of the mental health section for a couple of years as well.

Although not a 99th percentile score, I have scored a respectable 92th (MCAT). My LORs are very strong. I believe my essays are well-written, and as unique as my experiences allow.

All in all, I feel like although my application may not be exceptionally unique, it is solid. And, humbly, a good one. However, the major caveat is my uGPA and, quite frankly, always will be because I simply cannot afford to take the post bacc units necessary to raise it that last .20 that seems to be the screen cut off for many schools.

I'm preparing earlier than I did back in 2012 (my last application) and looking forward, still think I have several options that might keep the hope alive. However, for the past 5 years, I've been jerry-rigging this entire process, hoping by sheer willpower I could make it work. I realize now, that I need help. Can I ask for some advice/insight as to which plan may be my best bet?

A) SMP: most obvious route, I think. However, my GPA is still low for the better ones. Also, because I think my strength (and quite frankly, my happy place) is in my research experience, I would have to leave a great research opportunity with a world-renowned PI/clinician to do an SMP. If I can avoid it, and still have a successful application, I would like to. However, if this is my best bet, you better believe I will be on the first flight out 🙂

B)more post-bacc work. Major drawback: $$$ all out of pocket. Plus, I'm just not sure it's going to help with how many units I have and how far I really still am from the magic 3.0.

C) MPH in Epidemiology: perfect compliment to my research background. However, generally not regarded as a good way to boost an MD/DO application. Would that generality still apply in my case?

I'm very very very grateful for any advice I can get. I'm still 110% committed; just unsure of what my next step should be.

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

I think it is your late application date more than anything. Did you not apply to any DO schools the first time around?

You think so? Of course that's the easiest fix in theory if I could submit in June next year. At this point, I'm not above opening a new credit card to ensure that being able to happen...

And no, in 2012 I was really ill informed about DO schools. This time around I definitely did my research and reached out to the schools I was most interested in. Funnily enough, all (read: 3) DO schools' admissions that were able to counsel me personally told me that although grade repair is always a plus and always advised, in my particular case I was still a strong candidate given my application as a whole. However, competition is a beast and perhaps they couldn't account for that when they assessed that for me.

Thank you so much for reading and weighing in 🙂

 

[tai9588]

You have a sub-3.0 GPA.
You're a reapplicant.
You shot yourself in the foot by applying extremely late.
You likely applied to many unrealistic schools (the fact that you even considered Mayo is surprising).

The usual prescription for your situation is: retake all C's, D's and F's to bring your GPA over 3.0 at DO schools (grade replacement). Apply early and broadly to DO schools. Given your solid MCAT, upward GPA trend, background, etc, you should have a lot of success if you just go about this a bit more carefully. Spend some time reading SDN to see what others have done.

But not as surprising as them considering me, eh? Must not be as hopeless as it appears 😉. Thanks for taking the time to read and weigh in 🙂

I am sorry but I have to agree with Gurby. A sub 3.0 with ORM applied to MD schools (particularly Mayo and CA ) and late is a big mistake despite your solid MCAT. Yes, you passed the screen...but screen, secondary, and II mean nothing without an acceptance. I will say do whatever you can to bring up that GPA and apply broadly to DO....and if you can afford then throw some lower titer MD schools or those that look at their applicants holistically. Email the school before you apply to see if you have a chance to save yourself money. Application process can be expensive.

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

I am sorry but I have to agree with Gurby. A sub 3.0 with ORM applied to MD schools (particularly Mayo and CA ) and late is a big mistake despite your solid MCAT. Yes, you passed the screen...but screen, secondary, and II mean nothing without an acceptance. I will say do whatever you can to bring up that GPA and apply broadly to DO....and if you can afford then throw some lower titer MD schools or those that look at their applicants holistically. Email the school before you apply to see if you have a chance to save yourself money. Application process can be expensive.

I'm not orm. I'm overrepresented: white.

It seems like you only took into account my GPA when you wrote your response, but I can't say I'm surprised that I received one of these typical replies. All I have to say is I'm glad adcoms have shifted away from your attitude or there really would be no hope for me.

Have a good night.

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

Double

 

[tai9588]

I'm not orm. I'm overrepresented: white.

It seems like you only took into account my GPA when you wrote your response, but I can't say I'm surprised that I received one of these typical replies. All I have to say is I'm glad adcoms have shifted away from your attitude or there really would be no hope for me.

Have a good night.

Seems to me you are not too open to feedbacks. I am not adcom or anything...just another applicant with few acceptances so I am just trying to give back and help other applicants...so all I can say now is good luck. Hope you get some love (acceptance).

 

[BluMist]

the previous posters actually gave you fairly realistic assessments, but I also understand it's easy to take (especially negative) feedback personally.

fact: stats are not looking great in your case (per famous table 25): https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf
lumping you into the 2.80-2.99 GPA + 33-35 MCAT range, as a white applicant, 22.5% gets admitted

to answer your original question:
SMP is probably your best bet, but it won't be cheap, and you cannot afford to screw up.
MPH may be look upon favorably (assuming you add rigorous science classes) for DO schools. MD generally does not care about graduate GPA.

if you want to avoid those options, other actionable things (including some previously mentioned) to maximize your chances: apply early, apply broadly and realistically (lower tier MDs and DOs, probably out of CA), do some research on schools to see if you fit their mission and their stats.

I'm not orm. I'm overrepresented: white.

It seems like you only took into account my GPA when you wrote your response, but I can't say I'm surprised that I received one of these typical replies. All I have to say is I'm glad adcoms have shifted away from your attitude or there really would be no hope for me.

Have a good night.

 

[Mirp]

Have you considered the Caribbean schools? They will likely take you with your current GPA and they have rolling admissions so you might be able to make it into the January class or at least the one that starts in spring. The major disadvantage of this route is that anything outside of primary care will be very difficult to match into.

 

[futuremdforme]

I'm not orm. I'm overrepresented: white.

It seems like you only took into account my GPA when you wrote your response, but I can't say I'm surprised that I received one of these typical replies. All I have to say is I'm glad adcoms have shifted away from your attitude or there really would be no hope for me.

Unfortunately, your issue is that adcoms aren't giving you a chance -- you're not having success in your application, and you need to change something if you want to be successful next time. Your GPA is the big issue, and if you are unwilling to address it, you'll just repeat this situation. If you're willing to address it, you could be successful especially with your really good MCAT.

 

[GreenDuck12]

When you say you have a lot of credits from your undergraduate years, how are those grades? Do you have mostly Cs/Bs causing your 2.7 GPA, or mostly As/Bs with some F/D/C grades bringing your GPA down? If you have ANY F/D/C- grades, repeating these classes and targeting DO schools is going to be your best bet. You can raise your GPA much more quickly with grade replacement as opposed to taking more classes. Admissions, to almost any selective professional program, is initially a numbers game, and right now, your numbers are low. A solid test score shows aptitude and natural ability but a low GPA indicates problems with work ethic and drive (from my personal experience gauging applicants to a selective program). Raising your GPA will help you make it past the initial screening. Apply broadly to osteopathic schools but only when your numbers are in a more realistic range (3.0/3.1 plus). Without making this change, you really are just giving schools your hard earned money for them to briefly look at your application and then pass it aside. This also speaks to the mindset of only applying when you have the strongest application possible. It takes time and effort to get it right.

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

the previous posters actually gave you fairly realistic assessments, but I also understand it's easy to take (especially negative) feedback personally.

fact: stats are not looking great in your case (per famous table 25): https://www.aamc.org/download/321518/data/factstable25-4.pdf
lumping you into the 2.80-2.99 GPA + 33-35 MCAT range, as a white applicant, 22.5% gets admitted

to answer your original question:
SMP is probably your best bet, but it won't be cheap, and you cannot afford to screw up.
MPH may be look upon favorably (assuming you add rigorous science classes) for DO schools. MD generally does not care about graduate GPA.

if you want to avoid those options, other actionable things (including some previously mentioned) to maximize your chances: apply early, apply broadly and realistically (lower tier MDs and DOs, probably out of CA), do some research on schools to see if you fit their mission and their stats.

Unfortunately, your issue is that adcoms aren't giving you a chance -- you're not having success in your application, and you need to change something if you want to be successful next time. Your GPA is the big issue, and if you are unwilling to address it, you'll just repeat this situation. If you're willing to address it, you could be successful especially with your really good MCAT.

When you say you have a lot of credits from your undergraduate years, how are those grades? Do you have mostly Cs/Bs causing your 2.7 GPA, or mostly As/Bs with some F/D/C grades bringing your GPA down? If you have ANY F/D/C- grades, repeating these classes and targeting DO schools is going to be your best bet. You can raise your GPA much more quickly with grade replacement as opposed to taking more classes. Admissions, to almost any selective professional program, is initially a numbers game, and right now, your numbers are low. A solid test score shows aptitude and natural ability but a low GPA indicates problems with work ethic and drive (from my personal experience gauging applicants to a selective program). Raising your GPA will help you make it past the initial screening. Apply broadly to osteopathic schools but only when your numbers are in a more realistic range (3.0/3.1 plus). Without making this change, you really are just giving schools your hard earned money for them to briefly look at your application and then pass it aside. This also speaks to the mindset of only applying when you have the strongest application possible. It takes time and effort to get it right.

I'm sorry if it appears I'm not open to feedback. I definitely am or I wouldnt be here. I'm very aware that the odds are stacked against me. However, I'm not going to give up just because the odds aren't good. I'm going to be in the 22.5%.

My larger issue remains where to go from here to make that happen.

Given my application is solid in every other way, I'm just looking for the best way to address my GPA. It looks like consensus is to just stick to retaking courses and/or more upper divs?

I don't have any d/f grades to retake. They're mostly b/c's.

Yes, I applied to Mayo and CA schools but I applied very broadly and realistically overall. I have to be honest and say it's frustrating that posters are harping on my applying to those schools. Did no one here apply to any reach schools?

I'm very open to DO schools but I'm also aiming to apply to MD schools in the future. I will cast as wide a net as I can afford. What I'm thankful for is that I did save money this time around and didn't have to put any application fees on a credit card. And so will be going into the next cycle debt free with money left over. In the end, not sure that was worth having a late application, but that's where I'm at.

Summarily, is the general consensus to retake classes only?

Any other opinions on epidemiology MPH?

Is an SMP just out of the question for me?

 

[hopefulatacrossroad]

When you say you have a lot of credits from your undergraduate years, how are those grades? Do you have mostly Cs/Bs causing your 2.7 GPA, or mostly As/Bs with some F/D/C grades bringing your GPA down? If you have ANY F/D/C- grades, repeating these classes and targeting DO schools is going to be your best bet. You can raise your GPA much more quickly with grade replacement as opposed to taking more classes. Admissions, to almost any selective professional program, is initially a numbers game, and right now, your numbers are low. A solid test score shows aptitude and natural ability but a low GPA indicates problems with work ethic and drive (from my personal experience gauging applicants to a selective program). Raising your GPA will help you make it past the initial screening. Apply broadly to osteopathic schools but only when your numbers are in a more realistic range (3.0/3.1 plus). Without making this change, you really are just giving schools your hard earned money for them to briefly look at your application and then pass it aside. This also speaks to the mindset of only applying when you have the strongest application possible. It takes time and effort to get it right.

See the thing is, I thought I had the strongest application possible. At some point I had to make peace with my undergraduate GPA and I thought 50+ post bacc units was that point.

At this point, it seems like I shouldn't have bothered with my huge research resume or any of my clinical experiences. I did everything I did to be better prepared for medicine and yes, I did think it would help adcoms look at my 5 year old undergrad gpa from a different angle.

But from everything I've heard on here, none of that even matters and I really should have gone back and done an second bachelors or something.

I can't help but feel like the last 5 years of building this application I thought I should be proud of were moot though after this threads overall feedback.

In that vein, would your advice be to give up my research position and devote myself completely to the numbers game again? Am I being immature in believing my research is capable of setting me apart/strengthening my application?

 

[FistLength]

See the thing is, I thought I had the strongest application possible. At some point I had to make peace with my undergraduate GPA and I thought 50+ post bacc units was that point.

At this point, it seems like I shouldn't have bothered with my huge research resume or any of my clinical experiences. I did everything I did to be better prepared for medicine and yes, I did think it would help adcoms look at my 5 year old undergrad gpa from a different angle.

But from everything I've heard on here, none of that even matters and I really should have gone back and done an second bachelors or something.

I can't help but feel like the last 5 years of building this application I thought I should be proud of were moot though after this threads overall feedback.

In that vein, would your advice be to give up my research position and devote myself completely to the numbers game again? Am I being immature in believing my research is capable of setting me apart/strengthening my application?

DO schools will appreciate your work years but in honesty they do not care heavily about research unless you really accomplished a lot (but with 1 paper and 1 presentation that is not a strong case to sell). In interviews you can definitely dazzle with details but on the surface people will probably be looking at publications. I am thinking Mayo and the like gave you a bite because of your research experience. If you had more publications I think it would have been even more enticing.

Your GPA is bad as you know but not at all impossible to fix especially for DO. Your MCAT demonstrates your not a true 2.7-3.0 candidate. SMP should be a good option for you.

Perhaps list what schools you applied to, maybe members can identify if there was a problem.

Also September app definitely hurt. I would think you would get more DO love if you applied early as possible.
@Goro gives solid advice

 

[petyr_baelish]

If you have a 2.7 cGPA and it only raised 0.1 (to 2.8) with 50+ credits of 3.7, your breakdown with an excessive number of undergrad credits would look something like this

100 credits of 2.7 (B-) grades
50 credits of 3.7 (A-) grades
20 credits of 1.0 (D) grades

20 credits is about 6 classes. You can retake them in one semester. Then you might have success.

If you are the rare bird that has 300 undergrad credits, I'd just move on with life. You'd have done enough and could probably teach multiple high school/college subjects.

 

[Jamie561]

I'm not orm. I'm overrepresented: white.

It seems like you only took into account my GPA when you wrote your response, but I can't say I'm surprised that I received one of these typical replies. All I have to say is I'm glad adcoms have shifted away from your attitude or there really would be no hope for me.

Have a good night.

your story is unique and all your dreams will come true. apply to mph and do research. any medical school would be lucky to have you.

real advice: research only helps those with competitive stats, so yes your last 5 years of putting the cart before the horse were misguided. At this point, DO is your best option (retake, raise GPA, reapply). MD is nearly impossible with your GPA and units, though you could try for SMP.

 

[GreenDuck12]

Since you have mostly B/C grades, start by retaking classes where you got a C- in and then a C in. Also take upper division science classes. This is going to be a long trek, but, it is the only way to raise a low GPA.

You could also pursue the SMP route. I personally am not a fan of what SMP programs offer because 1) it does not change your uGPA 2) they are graduate programs and 3) they are incredibly expensive. However, other applicants have had success going the SMP route and ended up matriculating to DO and MD schools. It is definitely worth exploring and it is worth talking to someone who is much more knowledgeable than me. I still think that the biggest hurdle is getting over the low GPA and the only way to do that is my advice above.

When you are ready to apply, you need to apply early in the cycle. You should be sending off your application within 2 or 3 weeks of when it opens on June 1st. As the cycle progresses, many have found that it becomes more difficult to earn a spot at an interview. Focus your applications on DO schools and some MD schools, not the other way around. The reality is that MD schools, as a category, have higher admissions stats than DO schools (though this gap is narrowing every year). Both schools lead to the same residencies and specialties so, once you're in, focus on kicking ass in your classes and on the step tests.

The goal of this post and every other post is not to get you to give up but to be realistic and honest. Every applicant that I have ever interviewed (selective program with 10% acceptance rate) believes their application/situation/skill set is unique. I have literally interviewed hundreds of people and have found it to be true in only 3 cases. The reality for medical schools is that in any given year 60% of applicants do not matriculate to any school and many of those applicants have what they feel is a unique application / background / skill set. What I am suggesting is that you respect your competition (which is becoming more competitive each year) by taking the necessary steps to address the deficiencies that you already identified (low GPA). Plenty of students with 3.6/31 do not matriculate. You have to put in a lot of work and time to earn a spot and you have already been doing that through research. There is a little bit left to go, either through post bac classes or smp. Best of luck to you.

 

[esob]

U could always relocate to some state that has academic fresh start and begin again if you really want MD. Otherwise, its going to be tough to get into an MD school with your GPA.