Hopkins vs. Harvard

[ragnar23]

I've just narrowed down my school list to these two schools. I am interested in going into optho, surgery, anesthesia, and oncology.
I am super conflicted and go back and forth everyday, so any feedback would be appreciated! Thanks in advance!

Hopkins (full COA):

Pros:

• Medical juggernaut
• Really enjoyed SLW, the admitted and current students seemed great
• Surprisingly, culture seemed more chill than HMS
• Got the "work hard, play hard" mentality which suits me
• Asynchronous lectures
• Gym, athletic facilities right next door to the med school building
• Potentially free third party resources for upcoming class
• Robust shuttle system and security guards stationed on every corner to combat Baltimore crime
• Close to home which is important to me
• I love DC so the proximity to there would be great
• I enjoy being outdoors so the relatively warm weather is a plus
• More diverse patient populations

Cons:

• Baltimore crime concerns me
• Med school is located in a rough area
• Current student said Baltimore is a food desert
• Known to be toxic/very gunnery, but I didn't pick up on that during SLW

Harvard (full COA):


Pros:

• It's Harvard. Arguably unrivaled global reputation
• Have very early clinical exposure within year 1
• I have connections at HMS that could potentially open doors for me
• The advising seemed to be phenomenal. I feel like current students talked about having numerous advisors
• Exams on Friday, done at noon everyday
• I like the flipped classrooms model and enjoy case-based learning
• Living in Vanderbilt Hall would be fun to build camaraderie with classmates
• Longer summer break
• Cool city with a historical charm. I enjoy walking so the walkability of Boston is great
• Solid public transport system

Cons:

• High cost of living (I am a frugal person)
• While living in Vanderbilt Hall may be fun, the idea of sharing a kitchen and bathroom with 10-20 people is not appealing
• The culture and vibe seemed to not totally fit here
• I've lived in a cold area my entire life to the idea of living in Boston is not super appealing
• I've not heard the best things about the nightlife in Boston
• Less diverse patient population
• Current students told me they felt like the anatomy education was relatively weak, which surprised me

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[deleted1065184]

Seems like Hopkins by a landslide tbh. Also one comment about your cons. All institutions within highly urbanized areas will deal with crime, but it can't be that bad within the Hopkins bubble if folks are still going there. Secondly, the entirety of Baltimore isn't experiencing food apartheid...just like there are parts of the Boston area that are.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Another one where it's a coin toss and you don't seem to have a strong reason to go to one over the other. I forget, are they both P/F clinical? I'd usually advocate for going to the less stressful one but I think they both might be P/F clinical. In that case, I'd personally go to HMS. In medicine, they're about the same in terms of reputation. Outside of medicine, it's obvious. Haven't lived extensively in either but I personally think Boston is cooler than Baltimore. Boston is like what an 8 hr drive from where your family is? That's not super far IMO and realistically school is going to keep you pretty busy anyway. You say you might not vibe with the Harvard culture, but HMS and Hopkins aren't known to have different cultures--they're both East Coast vibes. So what you may be perceiving is a limited experience, and I wouldn't put too much weight on that. If you like the flipped classroom (which many people dislike), then I think the 1 year pre-clinical is more for you and frees up 3rd year. But honestly, you can go with Hopkins and no one would question you.

 

[hotcrossbuns]

In my experience people tend to exaggerate the crime in Baltimore. Sure, it exists, but if you make smart choices (don't walk alone at 2am or with your head buried in your phone), you'll probably be fine. I spent two gap years working in a research lab on the med campus. And as far as I know, reports of med students or other affiliates being victimized are quite rare.

The med campus in East Baltimore isn't in as much of a bubble as the undergrad campus but like you said, security guards have a pretty solid presence. Does Hopkins offer free Lyfts/Ubers after a certain time at night? I know some places do this.

 

[ragnar23]

Another one where it's a coin toss and you don't seem to have a strong reason to go to one over the other. I forget, are they both P/F clinical? I'd usually advocate for going to the less stressful one but I think they both might be P/F clinical. In that case, I'd personally go to HMS. In medicine, they're about the same in terms of reputation. Outside of medicine, it's obvious. Haven't lived extensively in either but I personally think Boston is cooler than Baltimore. Boston is like what an 8 hr drive from where your family is? That's not super far IMO and realistically school is going to keep you pretty busy anyway. You say you might not vibe with the Harvard culture, but HMS and Hopkins aren't known to have different cultures--they're both East Coast vibes. So what you may be perceiving is a limited experience, and I wouldn't put too much weight on that. If you like the flipped classroom (which many people dislike), then I think the 1 year pre-clinical is more for you and frees up 3rd year. But honestly, you can go with Hopkins and no one would question you.

Yea they are both p/f for preclinical and clinical. I agree with HMS having substantial more weight outside of medicine, but how much does that actually matter? I don't intend to pursue another degree beyond (maybe but likely not) an MPH. I feel like my work would be within the bubble of medicine most likely.

 

[ragnar23]

In my experience people tend to exaggerate the crime in Baltimore. Sure, it exists, but if you make smart choices (don't walk alone at 2am or with your head buried in your phone), you'll probably be fine. I spent two gap years working in a research lab on the med campus. And as far as I know, reports of med students or other affiliates being victimized are quite rare.

The med campus in East Baltimore isn't in as much of a bubble as the undergrad campus but like you said, security guards have a pretty solid presence. Does Hopkins offer free Lyfts/Ubers after a certain time at night? I know some places do this.

I think they have free Lyft's within a certain radius of the school from midnight-5am! It seems they are trying to make an effort to promote student safety which i appreciate.

 

[ragnar23]

These are both incredible options, but it sounds to me like Hopkins is vibing with you more on the lifestyle and happiness factors. Either is as prestigious within medicine, although HMS has the edge outside of medicine. There was another thread on here where people were discussing whether the poster had any intentions of branching out of medicine, and if so then the connections at HMS could give an edge. But within medicine I think you will have as much of an edge from Hopkins as from HMS. And really, the difference is nitpicking in terms of prestige at this point, so you should go where you will be happiest regardless.

i agree it seems Hopkins is the better "fit." I guess I am balancing how much more important fit is compared to a decrease in prestige outside of medicine. Btw I don't necessarily have plans to branch out of medicine, but I won't totally rule it out.

 

[N3utr0ph!l]

I went to Hopkins for my masters and have been living in Baltimore for 4 years. As the above poster said, so as long as you’re not running around at 2am by yourself in places you have no business being in you’ll be fine. At the school of public health they paid for our Lyfts I believe after 5pm-6am. Idk if the SOM does though. I don’t have the stats for Hopkins LOL but the fact that DC is a 50 min train ride away is more than enough for me to choose them. I personally shop at the farmers market/organic mom-and-pop shops which are about 15 mins from the school. And fresh food hasn’t been an issue for me but perhaps that’s a privilege I get because I use Amazon Fresh. I also loveee the Baltimore food scene. Probably a little too much.

 

[deleted1065184]

i agree it seems Hopkins is the better "fit." I guess I am balancing how much more important fit is compared to a decrease in prestige outside of medicine. Btw I don't necessarily have plans to branch out of medicine, but I won't totally rule it out.

I'm still waiting for somebody to provide evidence of how the Harvard name helped physicians who chose to do non-medical things in their career (specifically in comparison with peer institutions). It's all theoretical as far as I can tell.

Also, it's always so odd to me that it's such a big focus when the vast majority of physicians aren't going to pursue non-medical careers. I suspect that it's mainly utilized by folks who can't find another reason to justify choosing Harvard over other great options.

I think it's entirely based in ego and the pursuit of ultimate prestige. And that's totally fine. If prestige is the biggest factor, folks don't have to find a way to justify it. They can just live their truth.

Harvard isn't going to provide you opportunities than Hopkins won't, and it's abundantly clear that you prefer Hopkins. You also don't have plans to pursue anything outside of medicine. I say choose Harvard only if your ego can't let it go lol

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

I'm still waiting for somebody to provide evidence of how the Harvard name helped physicians who chose to do non-medical things in their career (specifically in comparison with peer institutions). It's all theoretical as far as I can tell.

Also, it's always so odd to me that it's such a big focus when the vast majority of physicians aren't going to pursue non-medical careers. I suspect that it's mainly utilized by folks who can't find another reason to justify choosing Harvard over other great options.

I think it's entirely based in ego and the pursuit of ultimate prestige. And that's totally fine. If prestige is the biggest factor, folks don't have to find a way to justify it. They can just live their truth.

Harvard isn't going to provide you opportunities than Hopkins won't, and it's abundantly clear that you prefer Hopkins. You also don't have plans to pursue anything outside of medicine. I say choose Harvard only if your ego can't let it go lol

Yeah, I can address this, since this prestige outside of medicine is mentioned a lot and first time it was questioned. School name is big in business (consulting, VC, finance) and policy. Those companies will actively recruit from target schools. They know that there's no difference in talent or education between Hopkins SOM and Harvard Medical School. But they know that their clients don't know this, and it's about appearances--that's all business is lol. And hopkins isn't a big name in business, so the lay business person without any medical knowledge may not what a beast it is. I did a business-like career before medicine (for anonymity, I will only say think data science/strategy consulting/tech) and it factored in recruiting as well as impressing clients. A few physicians decide to leave medicine, and most go into business, or do both concurrently. Then you have medicine-adjacent careers like journalist/author like Atul Gawande, etc. Then you have within medicine careers like global missions, like Paul Farmer. You think they don't blast "Harvard-trained physician" in their books or to the countries they serve? You think when health policy experts go on TV they don't say "Harvard physician"?

I also don't take people's plans while they're premed too seriously. You'll hear everyone say they want to do social justice and care for the underserved, or do global missions trips. Few do. Many people change specialties. Almost all at some point want to leave medicine. Few do because they have no other options. Some people venture outside of clinical. And guess what, they are heavily concentrated in those top schools (I suspect because it's also an easier avenue to).

You might not have plans for it now, but you never know. A lot of times, people don't close the door on those options but the door was never open to them.

When I read the pros and cons, the pros for Hopkins seem to be more on an emotional level. Some of it is warranted like being close to family, but others seem minor--vibes, slightly warmer weather, DC (which I don't know if you'll have that much time to enjoy anyway, as opposed to being smack dab in Boston), being close to the gym (I think there are a few gyms in Boston). The pros for harvard, not even the outside prestige which I didn't even emphasize, was the 1 yr pre-clinical (and big if you actually like flipped classroom), actually liking Boston (which beats Baltimore in terms of walkability and safety), and what you didn't mention is being in Boston where you have easy access to academia (best place in the world probably, with possibilities for interdisciplinary research not only at Harvard, but MIT, BU, Tufts, Northeastern etc.) and other industries (it has a biotech, normal tech, finance, and small politics presence) gives you a lot of possibilities. But personally, I think the emotional factors of Hopkins that OP has are easily changed (except being close to family). Again, the prestige outside of medicine is not huge between these two schools, but glad we had this discussion in case it comes up for other schools.

 

[deleted1065184]

Yeah, I can address this, since this prestige outside of medicine is mentioned a lot and first time it was questioned. School name is big in business (consulting, VC, finance) and policy. Those companies will actively recruit from target schools. They know that there's no difference in talent or education between Hopkins SOM and Harvard Medical School. But they know that their clients don't know this, and it's about appearances--that's all business is lol. And hopkins isn't a big name in business, so the lay business person without any medical knowledge may not what a beast it is. I did a business-like career before medicine (for anonymity, I will only say think data science/strategy consulting/tech) and it factored in recruiting as well as impressing clients. A few physicians decide to leave medicine, and most go into business, or do both concurrently. Then you have medicine-adjacent careers like journalist/author like Atul Gawande, etc. Then you have within medicine careers like global missions, like Paul Farmer. You think they don't blast "Harvard-trained physician" in their books or to the countries they serve? You think when health policy experts go on TV they don't say "Harvard physician"?

I'm sure they blast it everywhere, but I'm not convinced it gives them an edge that Hopkins wouldn't. That's all I'm saying.

I also don't take people's plans while they're premed too seriously. You'll hear everyone say they want to do social justice and care for the underserved, or do global missions trips. Few do. Many people change specialties. Almost all at some point want to leave medicine. Few do because they have no other options. Some people venture outside of clinical. And guess what, they are heavily concentrated in those top schools (I suspect because it's also an easier avenue to).

This is all true, no disagreements here lol

You might not have plans for it now, but you never know. A lot of times, people don't close the door on those options but the door was never open to them.

Sure, but from a statistical perspective physicians just aren't very likely to choose non-medical careers. But even the physicians who end up becoming famous in other ways aren't overwhelmingly coming from Harvard. Dr. Oz (Penn; yes, I know he's terrible but still lol). Dr. Miami (WashU). Dr. Pimple Popper (Drexel). Dr. Ken Jeong (feels weird to say lol; UNC). Dr. Fauci (Cornell). Dr. Rochelle Walensky (Hopkins). Dr. Francis Collins (UNC)...btw, take a look at previous CDC and NIH Directors, you won't see many Harvard Med grads.

When I read the pros and cons, the pros for Hopkins seem to be more on an emotional level. Some of it is warranted like being close to family, but others seem minor--vibes, slightly warmer weather, DC (which I don't know if you'll have that much time to enjoy anyway, as opposed to being smack dab in Boston), being close to the gym (I think there are a few gyms in Boston). The pros for harvard, not even the outside prestige which I didn't even emphasize, was the 1 yr pre-clinical (and big if you actually like flipped classroom), actually liking Boston (which beats Baltimore in terms of walkability and safety), and what you didn't mention is being in Boston where you have easy access to academia (best place in the world probably, with possibilities for interdisciplinary research not only at Harvard, but MIT, BU, Tufts, Northeastern etc.) and other industries (it has a biotech, normal tech, finance, and small politics presence) gives you a lot of possibilities. But personally, I think the emotional factors of Hopkins that OP has are easily changed (except being close to family). Again, the prestige outside of medicine is not huge between these two schools, but glad we had this discussion in case it comes up for other schools.

"Emotional" pros and cons are still very important pros and cons.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

"Emotional" pros and cons are still very important pros and cons.

Agreed and that might be where I'm putting my bias (as does everyone else), since we don't know how much that actually matters. But being close to family is the only one I think isn't easily changed.

The other ones that I see are:
vibes: this feels like it's due to limited experience since both schools are probably very similar in student body. I think someone did a post a while back and showed that Hopkins has less URMs and less low SES? I don't have MSAR anymore so can't verify.
Gym next to med school building: As someone who's big into fitness as well, I can relate. But I think HMS students do fine with fitness around Boston.
DC vs Boston: So OP loves DC and seems to like Boston as well, but Baltimore is not DC lol. How often are you going to have time to go to DC, really?
Outdoors: As someone who's also an outdoors lover and who's lived in NYC, we would often go north to white mountains.
Slightly warmer weather: I haven't lived in either but looking at the monthly averages, Boston is 4-5 degrees colder.
More diverse patient population: I think Boston also has diversity.

I think those emotional factors are partly due to familiarity with DC (which is not Baltimore), and few encounters with students. But in Boston you'll probably have more opportunities to interact with more med students/residents/attendings from all over since the rotations are all over Boston. And if you don't like you peers, you only have 1 year of pre-clinical with them.

 

[deleted1065184]

Agreed and that might be where I'm putting my bias (as does everyone else), since we don't know how much that actually matters. But being close to family is the only one I think isn't easily changed.

The other ones that I see are:
vibes: this feels like it's due to limited experience since both schools are probably very similar in student body. I think someone did a post a while back and showed that Hopkins has less URMs and less low SES? I don't have MSAR anymore so can't verify.
Gym next to med school building: As someone who's big into fitness as well, I can relate. But I think HMS students do fine with fitness around Boston.
DC vs Boston: So OP loves DC and seems to like Boston as well, but Baltimore is not DC lol. How often are you going to have time to go to DC, really?
Outdoors: As someone who's also an outdoors lover and who's lived in NYC, we would often go north to white mountains.
Slightly warmer weather: I haven't lived in either but looking at the monthly averages, Boston is 4-5 degrees colder.
More diverse patient population: I think Boston also has diversity.

I think those emotional factors are partly due to familiarity with DC (which is not Baltimore), and few encounters with students. But in Boston you'll probably have more opportunities to interact with more med students/residents/attendings from all over since the rotations are all over Boston. And if you don't like you peers, you only have 1 year of pre-clinical with them.

Harvard def has a more diverse student body then Hopkins, but it seems what OP cares about more is patient population...which I understand. Boston is diverse, but I'm pretty sure Boston University is the main hospital that takes in the bulk of those at the margins of society.

Baltimore is quite a bit warmer than Boston. You can't look at the yearly average temperature to really see that. They're not too different during the summer, but Boston is MUCH colder during the winter. Baltimore also rains less, snows less, and has many more sunny days.

You can get from Baltimore to DC in like 30 mins by train, so I'd imagine OP would go there quite often since they love the city. Very quick and easy ride. Also only ~1hr driving, so still super doable.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Sure, but from a statistical perspective physicians just aren't very likely to choose non-medical careers. But even the physicians who end up becoming famous in other ways aren't overwhelmingly coming from Harvard. Dr. Oz (Penn; yes, I know he's terrible but still lol). Dr. Miami (WashU). Dr. Pimple Popper (Drexel). Dr. Ken Jeong (feels weird to say lol; UNC). Dr. Fauci (Cornell). Dr. Rochelle Walensky (Hopkins). Dr. Francis Collins (UNC)...btw, take a look at previous CDC and NIH Directors, you won't see many Harvard Med grads.

Right I did not mention the entertainment industry haha. If you want to be an influencer you can get away with an DNP and call yourself a doctor lol

And yeah those appointments I would say are still within medicine—a different topic where we know prestige still matters but in different ways. We’ve also talked about conditional probability and the merit of looking at lists and seeing what school they go to vs looking at schools and seeing where they end up, but I won’t get into that again here lol

 

[deleted1065184]

Right I did not mention the entertainment industry haha. If you want to be an influencer you can get away with an DNP and call yourself a doctor lol

And yeah those appointments I would say are still within medicine—a different topic where we know prestige still matters but in different ways. We’ve also talked about conditional probability and the merit of looking at lists and seeing what school they go to vs looking at schools and seeing where they end up, but I won’t get into that again here lol

CDC and NIH are in public health/science/healthcare, but not really medicine. I'd consider them medicine-adjacent

But my whole point was that we don't really have any reason to believe Harvard's has these intangible advantages outside of medicine for physicians. If I decided to choose another career path and I had gone to Harvard, I'd flaunt that too. But who knows if it'd help or not. But considering most physicians stay in medicine, the theoretical bump is not worth choosing Harvard over other schools that are a better fit.

You also didn't factor other aspects into the Harvard cons such as COL. As somebody who is also very money-conscious, that has always been a huge factor for me. It played a big role in me not even considering some schools, and not even applying to California schools.

I've also heard from several friends that Harvard's anatomy education is weak too (prosection-based). I personally don't think it matters that much, but for folks who do it's an important con.

Idk, just seems pretty clear to me that OP would be happier at Hopkins and the only reason they're even considering Harvard over Hopkins is the name. Happiness is so important in med school, as I'm sure you know.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

CDC and NIH are in public health/science/healthcare, but not really medicine. I'd consider them medicine-adjacent

But my whole point was that we don't really have any reason to believe Harvard's has these intangible advantages outside of medicine for physicians. If I decided to choose another career path and I had gone to Harvard, I'd flaunt that too. But who knows if it'd help or not. But considering most physicians stay in medicine, the theoretical bump is not worth choosing Harvard over other schools that are a better fit.

You also didn't factor other aspects into the Harvard cons such as COL. As somebody who is also very money-conscious, that has always been a huge factor for me. It played a big role in me not even considering some schools, and not even applying to California schools.

I've also heard from several friends that Harvard's anatomy education is weak too (prosection-based). I personally don't think it matters that much, but for folks who do it's an important con.

Idk, just seems pretty clear to me that OP would be happier at Hopkins and the only reason they're even considering Harvard over Hopkins is the name. Happiness is so important in med school, as I'm sure you know.

Right but doesn’t OP have full COA aid? If so I believe the schools adjust for the cost of living by giving more money. I’m on my phone now so have a cursory glance but it looks like HMS gives 8k more during m2 year for livi mg expense Cost of Attendance and Cost of Attendance | Office of Financial Aid
Can’t tell if they’re factoring different things.


I can tell you as someone who worked outside of medicine that it does, when recruiting and if you’re in a client facing job. That goes away as you have more experience, but it never hurts. We even see that in medicine. The undergrad you go to has some bearing in your med school chances which has some bearing on your residency which has some bearing on academic positions. Every step of the ladder makes the next one easier. Believe it or not but there are industries that are even more elitist than medicine lol.

Yes happiness is super important but I just don’t want OP or anyone else to make decisions based on emotional factors that’ll change. For example, the vibe check only works on the extremes and when you really know the culture, not from talking to people briefly. If they said they’ve been known to be depressed if far from family, I’d be like absolutely Hopkins and don’t look back.

Edit: another example I can think of is networking, which we all hear about. Yes yes you’ll meet so and so during your time at the school and that can help you later on. Something not mentioned is that it happens after graduating and follows you. I’m not proud of it, but these schools have ivy+ mixers where in certain cities they’ll host a mixer for alumni of the ivy schools and other prestigious schools. It’s horribly elitist but is networking. When I moved to a new city it was an alum that my friend introduced me to that helped me get into an industry and provided career advice. They were also happy to vouch for me because they were confident of the school “signal”. The Harvard network is vast, and it might not help in super concrete and tangible ways, but there are some invisible things you don’t always notice. Suffice it to say, my path to medicine was a lot easier than some of my peers.

 

[deleted1065184]

Right but doesn’t OP have full COA aid? If so I believe the schools adjust for the cost of living by giving more money. I’m on my phone now so have a cursory glance but it looks like HMS gives 8k more during m2 year for livi mg expense Cost of Attendance and Cost of Attendance | Office of Financial Aid
Can’t tell if they’re factoring different things.

What are the total prices? $8k may be adequate, but Boston is ~41% more expensive than Baltimore so it'd need to close a pretty big gap to be equal. Idk, something for OP to look into.

I can tell you as someone who worked outside of medicine that it does, when recruiting and if you’re in a client facing job. That goes away as you have more experience, but it never hurts. We even see that in medicine. The undergrad you go to has some bearing in your med school chances which has some bearing on your residency which has some bearing on academic positions. Every step of the ladder makes the next one easier. Believe it or not but there are industries that are even more elitist than medicine lol.

I know they're more elitist, which is why it's plausible in theory. But the confounding factor is that medicine in general is already among the most well-respected careers in the US (maybe even the most), so being a physician in and of itself is already providing a major wow factor. And within medicine, even lay people know that Hopkins is comparable with Harvard. They've probably also heard of Mayo and Cleveland Clinic. They may not know of other medical/research powerhouses like UCSF, WashU, Michigan, Penn, etc...but they'll know the name Hopkins is equivalent within medicine to Harvard. Although, again, it remains to be seen whether this functionally makes a difference in career prospects. I think we'll probably continue to go in circles about this, though. So I digress.

Yes happiness is super important but I just don’t want OP or anyone else to make decisions based on emotional factors that’ll change. For example, the vibe check only works on the extremes and when you really know the culture, not from talking to people briefly. If they said they’ve been known to be depressed if far from family, I’d be like absolutely Hopkins and don’t look back.

Agree that vibe checks may not be dependable, but OP has listed other factors that aren't going to change like proximity to home, proximity to DC, asynchronous lectures (big thing, my friends at Harvard hated all the mandatory classes), warmer weather, more diverse patient populations, and potentially free 3rd party resources (my school provided us with UWorld for free and it has heen a godsend).

Edit: another example I can think of is networking, which we all hear about. Yes yes you’ll meet so and so during your time at the school and that can help you later on. Something not mentioned is that it happens after graduating and follows you. I’m not proud of it, but these schools have ivy+ mixers where in certain cities they’ll host a mixer for alumni of the ivy schools and other prestigious schools. It’s horribly elitist but is networking. When I moved to a new city it was an alum that my friend introduced me to that helped me get into an industry and provided career advice. They were also happy to vouch for me because they were confident of the school “signal”. The Harvard network is vast, and it might not help in super concrete and tangible ways, but there are some invisible things you don’t always notice. Suffice it to say, my path to medicine was a lot easier than some of my peers.

And yes I'm well aware of the Ivy mixers lol, my spouse went to an Ivy for both undergraduate and medical school. I went to an Ivy for neither nor my doctorate (despite having Ivy offers). I've never had an issue with networking and I'd argue my career thus far has been at least as fruitful as my Ivy-educated counterparts. Hopkins may not be an Ivy, but it has Ivy-level recognition when medicine is mentioned. But again, this is an awful lot of industry consideration given most physicians stay in medicine and OP has stated they plan to.

We could go back and forth on this all day, but I think we just fundamentally view this a bit differently...which is fine, ofc!

OP, I believe you'll be fine wherever you go but it seems like you'll be happier at Hopkins. Just make sure that you make the decision that you believe you're least likely to regret. Good luck with deciding, and congrats on the cycle success!

 

[Rogue42]

Harvard. Period.

 

[Nora.Ephron]

I am also making a similar decision and based on your pros and cons, seems like Hopkins makes the most sense. You’ll be great at either!

 

[ragnar23]

Right but doesn’t OP have full COA aid? If so I believe the schools adjust for the cost of living by giving more money. I’m on my phone now so have a cursory glance but it looks like HMS gives 8k more during m2 year for livi mg expense Cost of Attendance and Cost of Attendance | Office of Financial Aid
Can’t tell if they’re factoring different things.


I can tell you as someone who worked outside of medicine that it does, when recruiting and if you’re in a client facing job. That goes away as you have more experience, but it never hurts. We even see that in medicine. The undergrad you go to has some bearing in your med school chances which has some bearing on your residency which has some bearing on academic positions. Every step of the ladder makes the next one easier. Believe it or not but there are industries that are even more elitist than medicine lol.

Yes happiness is super important but I just don’t want OP or anyone else to make decisions based on emotional factors that’ll change. For example, the vibe check only works on the extremes and when you really know the culture, not from talking to people briefly. If they said they’ve been known to be depressed if far from family, I’d be like absolutely Hopkins and don’t look back.

Edit: another example I can think of is networking, which we all hear about. Yes yes you’ll meet so and so during your time at the school and that can help you later on. Something not mentioned is that it happens after graduating and follows you. I’m not proud of it, but these schools have ivy+ mixers where in certain cities they’ll host a mixer for alumni of the ivy schools and other prestigious schools. It’s horribly elitist but is networking. When I moved to a new city it was an alum that my friend introduced me to that helped me get into an industry and provided career advice. They were also happy to vouch for me because they were confident of the school “signal”. The Harvard network is vast, and it might not help in super concrete and tangible ways, but there are some invisible things you don’t always notice. Suffice it to say, my path to medicine was a lot easier than some of my peers.

Thank you for the feedback. One thing to note about the COA numbers is that HMS consistently charges more for tuition and allots less for living expenses throughout all 4 years compared to JHU, despite Boston being a higher COL area. So even though the magnitude of my award is smaller at JHU, I would "take home" more $ due to the ratio of direct/indirect expenses charged by each school, if that makes sense.

 

[deleted1065184]

Thank you for the feedback. One thing to note about the COA numbers is that HMS consistently charges more for tuition and allots less for living expenses throughout all 4 years compared to JHU, despite Boston being a higher COL area. So even though the magnitude of my award is smaller at JHU, I would "take home" more $ due to the ratio of direct/indirect expenses charged by each school, if that makes sense.

Yeah, that's what I suspected. Schools rarely properly correct for COL, but the increased dollar amount usually convinces students that they have.

 

[Reading-girl]

Small comment here but per a friend who is an M2 at Hopkins they're all work hard play hard there

 

[deleted1146359]

I want to second what someone else mentioned in that a lot of your pros for Harvard are more concrete things such as the curriculum and the learning style, whereas a lot of the Hopkins pros (aside from being close to family) seem like "small potatoes" or are a wash between each school.

Therefore, I vote Harvard because it seems like you like the curriculum and location more(all the pros for Baltimore have to do with things that are not the city itself). The vibes/culture thing is kind of difficult to assess and seems like the main thing holding back Harvard. Did you just not mesh well with ppl you met during SLW or was it just a thing where Hopkins was amazing and Harvard was just alright?

 

[deleted1065184]

I want to second what someone else mentioned in that a lot of your pros for Harvard are more concrete things such as the curriculum and the learning style, whereas a lot of the Hopkins pros (aside from being close to family) seem like "small potatoes" or are a wash between each school.

Therefore, I vote Harvard because it seems like you like the curriculum and location more(all the pros for Baltimore have to do with things that are not the city itself). The vibes/culture thing is kind of difficult to assess and seems like the main thing holding back Harvard. Did you just not mesh well with ppl you met during SLW or was it just a thing where Hopkins was amazing and Harvard was just alright?

My earlier comment:

"Agree that vibe checks may not be dependable, but OP has listed other factors that aren't going to change like proximity to home, proximity to DC, asynchronous lectures (big thing, my friends at Harvard hated all the mandatory classes), warmer weather, more diverse patient populations, and potentially free 3rd party resources (my school provided us with UWorld for free and it has heen a godsend)."

Those are very concrete, clear things. I'm not sure if y'all are skimming over things, selectively ignoring things, or what. But come on.

 

[Biochemist3412]

Hey, tough decision. I was making a similar decision between hms, Hopkins, Stanford (all full rides)… had a similar pro cons list to yours, think I will end up choosing Hopkins. Message me if u wanna chat abt it

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

My earlier comment:

"Agree that vibe checks may not be dependable, but OP has listed other factors that aren't going to change like proximity to home, proximity to DC, asynchronous lectures (big thing, my friends at Harvard hated all the mandatory classes), warmer weather, more diverse patient populations, and potentially free 3rd party resources (my school provided us with UWorld for free and it has heen a godsend)."

Those are very concrete, clear things. I'm not sure if y'all are skimming over things, selectively ignoring things, or what. But come on.

Again, I'll re-emphasize that it's hard to know how much of an emphasis they factor those things, so we all put in our biases. Asynchronous lectures vs flipped classroom might be a wash for them because they state they like the flipped classroom. And you only have 1 year of pre-clinical. More time to explore interests third year, which is good now that Step 1 is P/F and the clerkships are P/F. Warmer weather is only slightly. For diverse patient population, I'll assume it's only marginally more diverse since I think Boston can rotate through a bunch of affiliated hospitals. You're in a city, you're going to be able to find diversity, it's not like you're in the middle of nowhere whitesville. I'm gonna inject my bias here, but I think if you have a true calling for serving the underserved (many people think they do or like to say they do but actually don't), you'd usually be more interested in primary care. OP is not, and the some of the specialties they're interested in don't lend themselves to a diverse patient population. Diverse patient population is important for anyone's training, but going from diverse to very diverse might not be for everyone. For that you sacrifice a more diverse student body (Hopkins doesn't have as generous Financial Aid, so you lose out on some SES diversity too). My take is hopkins goes for the prototypical stellar premed, and Harvard likes the rarer ones (olympians, former Navy Seals, etc.). Not a big deal tbh, but a counterpoint to the diversity in patient population. And 3rd party resources is like 1k-2k, which is a lot but in the grand scheme of things it really isn't. When you already have full COA paid for and you're going to be making hundreds of thousands after, you're going to laugh at yourself that you thought this was a perk. It's nice that the school does it, but it comes out of tuition and an argument can be said that it's more just to charge less and only provide it to those who would use it.

Being close to family is important. The COL aid which I do see now are similar but don't account for the actual COL difference is something to consider. But on the other hand, I don't think OP is considering the benefits of Harvard/Boston and all the opportunities it presents. Like I said, a coin flip and you can't go wrong. Make sure you're choosing it based on emotional factors that matter (family, cost) as opposed to ones that you think matter but might change.

 

[deleted1065184]

Again, I'll re-emphasize that it's hard to know how much of an emphasis they factor those things, so we all put in our biases. Asynchronous lectures vs flipped classroom might be a wash for them because they state they like the flipped classroom. And you only have 1 year of pre-clinical. More time to explore interests third year, which is good now that Step 1 is P/F and the clerkships are P/F. Warmer weather is only slightly. For diverse patient population, I'll assume it's only marginally more diverse since I think Boston can rotate through a bunch of affiliated hospitals. You're in a city, you're going to be able to find diversity, it's not like you're in the middle of nowhere whitesville. I'm gonna inject my bias here, but I think if you have a true calling for serving the underserved (many people think they do or like to say they do but actually don't), you'd usually be more interested in primary care. OP is not, and the some of the specialties they're interested in don't lend themselves to a diverse patient population. Diverse patient population is important for anyone's training, but going from diverse to very diverse might not be for everyone. For that you sacrifice a more diverse student body (Hopkins doesn't have as generous Financial Aid, so you lose out on some SES diversity too). My take is hopkins goes for the prototypical stellar premed, and Harvard likes the rarer ones (olympians, former Navy Seals, etc.). Not a big deal tbh, but a counterpoint to the diversity in patient population. And 3rd party resources is like 1k-2k, which is a lot but in the grand scheme of things it really isn't. When you already have full COA paid for and you're going to be making hundreds of thousands after, you're going to laugh at yourself that you thought this was a perk. It's nice that the school does it, but it comes out of tuition and an argument can be said that it's more just to charge less and only provide it to those who would use it.

Being close to family is important. The COL aid which I do see now are similar but don't account for the actual COL difference is something to consider. But on the other hand, I don't think OP is considering the benefits of Harvard/Boston and all the opportunities it presents. Like I said, a coin flip and you can't go wrong. Make sure you're choosing it based on emotional factors that matter (family, cost) as opposed to ones that you think matter but might change.

This is very long and I don't have the energy anymore, plus we're going in circles lol. I'm tapping out of the back-and-forth here. Good luck deciding, OP!

 

[ragnar23]

Diverse patient population is important for anyone's training, but going from diverse to very diverse might not be for everyone.

I come from a “very diverse” area dominate to Baltimore so this does fit me better. A specific interest of mine is in trauma, which typically occurs at higher numbers of minority populations and at alarming rates in Baltimore. I didn’t provide this context before so yea I think very diverse may suit me better.

 

[ragnar23]

But on the other hand, I don't think OP is considering the benefits of Harvard/Boston and all the opportunities it presents

Can you expand on this? I know you mentioned boston being a hotspot for biotech and industry but that doesn’t suit my interests at all really. Additionally, you mentioned the potential to collaborate with/work for the numerous other research schools (MIT, Northeastern, etc) located in boston, but how much do a reality would that be for a HMS student? Wouldn’t essentially all the research opportunities I need be offered through HMS and affiliate hospitals? I feel like the m majority of HMS students end up doing research at HMS simply due to easy access, but I could be dead wrong about that.

 

[ragnar23]

Asynchronous lectures vs flipped classroom might be a wash for them because they state they like the flipped classroom. And you only have 1 year of pre-clinical. More time to explore interests third year, which is good now that Step 1 is P/F and the clerkships are P/F.

Yes, the curriculums are a wash which is why I didn’t focus on them a lot. Both schools finish up clinicals midway through second year so there would be equal time for exploration in the third year

 

[premedasaurus]

Again, I'll re-emphasize that it's hard to know how much of an emphasis they factor those things, so we all put in our biases. Asynchronous lectures vs flipped classroom might be a wash for them because they state they like the flipped classroom. And you only have 1 year of pre-clinical. More time to explore interests third year, which is good now that Step 1 is P/F and the clerkships are P/F. Warmer weather is only slightly. For diverse patient population, I'll assume it's only marginally more diverse since I think Boston can rotate through a bunch of affiliated hospitals. You're in a city, you're going to be able to find diversity, it's not like you're in the middle of nowhere whitesville. I'm gonna inject my bias here, but I think if you have a true calling for serving the underserved (many people think they do or like to say they do but actually don't), you'd usually be more interested in primary care. OP is not, and the some of the specialties they're interested in don't lend themselves to a diverse patient population. Diverse patient population is important for anyone's training, but going from diverse to very diverse might not be for everyone. For that you sacrifice a more diverse student body (Hopkins doesn't have as generous Financial Aid, so you lose out on some SES diversity too). My take is hopkins goes for the prototypical stellar premed, and Harvard likes the rarer ones (olympians, former Navy Seals, etc.). Not a big deal tbh, but a counterpoint to the diversity in patient population. And 3rd party resources is like 1k-2k, which is a lot but in the grand scheme of things it really isn't. When you already have full COA paid for and you're going to be making hundreds of thousands after, you're going to laugh at yourself that you thought this was a perk. It's nice that the school does it, but it comes out of tuition and an argument can be said that it's more just to charge less and only provide it to those who would use it.

Being close to family is important. The COL aid which I do see now are similar but don't account for the actual COL difference is something to consider. But on the other hand, I don't think OP is considering the benefits of Harvard/Boston and all the opportunities it presents. Like I said, a coin flip and you can't go wrong. Make sure you're choosing it based on emotional factors that matter (family, cost) as opposed to ones that you think matter but might change.

Replying for other students who may see this: HMS is going back to a 1.5-year preclinical model (which includes an 11-week summer) for this year onwards!

 

[premedasaurus]

OP, I vote Hopkins! You seem to prefer it and I don't think the intangible benefits of HMS would apply to your interests, based on what you have said. Go with your gut!

(disclosure: admitted to HMS, did not apply to Hopkins)

 

[i_like_apple_sauce]

Can you expand on this? I know you mentioned boston being a hotspot for biotech and industry but that doesn’t suit my interests at all really. Additionally, you mentioned the potential to collaborate with/work for the numerous other research schools (MIT, Northeastern, etc) located in boston, but how much do a reality would that be for a HMS student? Wouldn’t essentially all the research opportunities I need be offered through HMS and affiliate hospitals? I feel like the m majority of HMS students end up doing research at HMS simply due to easy access, but I could be dead wrong about that.

A Harvard student mentioned a Reddit thread that:

"I think we have more faculty than most other T10’s to the point you can find research projects in pretty much anything, we have over 10,000 I believe. Apart from that, most people don’t do ECs that aren’t research, save for like clubs/interest groups and a continuity clinic you can volunteer at."

So like, I doubt collabing with MIT/Northeastern is that much of a value add. I got the sense from talking to HMS students that there's maybe a small handful of HST students that collab with MIT labs but I think that's basically it as far as research collaboration, specifically.

You could also just do your own research into HMS students, JHU students, and PIs at each school to get a clearer picture of whether you'll be able to achieve your goals or not.

 

[sunshower26]

Based on everything you and others have said so far, I think that Hopkins is the best place for you. Harvard can offer benefits due to the location alone if you see yourself delving into other fields possibly unrelated to medicine like finance or adjacent like biotech. But I think for pure clinical training, research, and opportunities aligning in the medicine and health sphere, Hopkins offers everything that you want or imagine wanting and, it seems, also satisfies aspects that are personally important to you. I think emotional factors and pros do matter - and maybe people you have met at both places change from first impression like some posts above referenced, but I do think it's possible to get a general vibe of the student body from the M1s at least that you have met, and I believe that community/mental health and wellbeing and support from peers/proximity to family matters immensely during medical school and training and should be prioritized. At this point, you will get an MD from a fantastic institution, and it's really up to you to decide how you want that experience in the process of obtaining it to be like.

 

[BritainKittenMittens]

Can you expand on this? I know you mentioned boston being a hotspot for biotech and industry but that doesn’t suit my interests at all really. Additionally, you mentioned the potential to collaborate with/work for the numerous other research schools (MIT, Northeastern, etc) located in boston, but how much do a reality would that be for a HMS student? Wouldn’t essentially all the research opportunities I need be offered through HMS and affiliate hospitals? I feel like the m majority of HMS students end up doing research at HMS simply due to easy access, but I could be dead wrong about that.

I think the affiliation with MIT is pretty tight since they offer the Harvard-MIT MSTP program, and there are numerous research institutes (Broad Institute, Koch institute, Dana Farber, Whitehead institute) where the research members are Harvard or MIT faculty (I know for sure Broad has both since it's affiliated with both, Whitehead might be just MIT). I've visited friends in Cambridge doing research and it seems like there's a lot of collaborations between all the hospitals and research institutes. But more broadly, I was also speaking to Boston being close to the outdoors which you said were important to you and I wasn't sure you knew that the white mountains are also beautiful. It's also as you said, very walkable, safe and charming. I will say that if you're more comfortable with a very diverse city (I'll take that to mean more on the low SES side), Baltimore might be more your thing. Cambridge and also Boston to an extent has good socioeconomic diversity, but does is more top heavy if not by wealth, by class. Academia is big in Boston, so there can be an err of elitism.

 

[Biochemist3412]

Havard by a landslide here

This is the fourth post I've seen you advocate for school X in "X vs Hopkins". I hope u get off the Hopkins waitlist buddy

 

[gyngyn]

A post from a member that offered entirely self-serving "advice" has been removed.