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hopkins vs stanford/ucsf

Discussion in 'Pre-Medical - MD' started by Sir William Osler, Jan 8, 2002.

  1. Sir William Osler

    Sir William Osler Senior Member
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    Hypothetically, which one would you choose and why? I'm curious how one compares the West Coast schools with Hopkins.

    thanks
     
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  3. UCLA2000

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    This really depends on alot of different factors.

    UCSF has Pass/Fail..whereas hopkins uses grades. I'm not sure about Stanford.

    If you are a Cali resident keep in mind that you would be paying around 15k per year for UCSF, and around 30-35k per year for the other two schools.

    The weather in California is better than the weather on the East coast, and UCSF is in a big city which is very diverse.
     
  4. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats
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    One of my friends told me that Stanford automatically gives you a 15K scholarship (actually, I think it was 20K) if you get in and go there and qualify for just 1 penny of financial aid!!!
    So it actually comes out to a pretty good deal!
     
  5. Sir William Osler

    Sir William Osler Senior Member
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    but what about the reputation of hopkins. The Hopkins Hospital is probably the best hospital in the world in which to study medicine. But the cali locations are much better and there is no denying that. I honestly think all three are pretty much equally difficult. Hopkins may be more competitive but if it makes me a better doctor in the long run, isn't it worth it? i'm really curious if people are making the same sort of decision.

    and scoob, i think i know your friend (wink)
     
  6. choker

    choker Senior Member
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    in terms of reputation, i think they are all basically the same. at that level, i really dont think it matters anymore. if you want to be picky, hopkins may have a very slight edge, but again, it's negligable. stanford does have ridiculous fin. aid. and it's also completely pass/fail, with midterms optional. there are huge differences with curriculum: stanford encourages 5 years and allows you to take the courses whenever you want.

    i think the big difference comes down to location. where do you want to live for the next 4 years. i know this criterion doesn't mean much when comparing ucsf to stanford, but with hopkins it does. bare in mind that are large chunk of people in medical school stay in the area for residency.

    so see which area is best for you.

    -good luck.
     
  7. In my opinion, when it comes to those three schools.... reputation difference is negligible. Now the other very important factors: fellow students/student happiness and location. I think with those two factors.... UCSF is by far better than the other two. Hopkins is on grades and causes an ultra-competitive atmosphere. And how can you beat San Francisco.... in my opinion it is the best city in the US. I am also biased because UCSF was my dream school and it would only have cost me $8K a year. But they rejected me already! By the way.... you cant go wrong with any of those schools.....just try to think about the other things that make you happy other than reputation.
     
  8. You Think I'm Sexy

    You Think I'm Sexy Junior Member
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    Hi Mr. Bean,

    Personally, I plan to apply to all of them. UCSF is by far the best school of the three, yet the hardest to get into, especially if you're not a California resident. The huge downside to both UCSF and Stanford is the extremely high cost of rent (studio apartment in San Francisco can go for over $2000/month). If feasible, it would be best to visit all 3 and see which suits you best. I absolutely love both the UCSF and Stanford campuses and from speaking with current medical students and alumni, everyone seemed to be pleased with their education and professors. As mentioned before, UCSF and Stanford are pass/fail and Stanford is more leniant when it comes to tests and courses. Hopkins is graded which will foster competition... Good luck with your decision and I hope you're accepted to your top choice.
     
  9. ckent

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    Baltimore is a crime-ridden, drug infested city. Makes for an interesting patient population but also a highly undesirable place to live. Hopkins is in one of the worst parts of this city. If you receive an offer from any descent school outside of Baltimore and cost is not an issue, I would suggest the other school.
     
  10. doepug

    doepug Senior Member
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    Hey y'all...

    UCSF, Stanford, and Hopkins are 3 terrific schools. No question.

    With all due respect though, there seems to be some misinformation posted about Hopkins. While Hopkins does use letter grades, 85% of students will get a B on any given exam. Since there are no pluses or minuses, the A/B/C system here is equivalent to honors/high pass/pass.

    The idea that Hopkins is "ultra-competitive" is an unfortunate myth. Sadly, the reputation of the undergrads seems to have been misapplied to the medical school. If anything, the competition at Hopkins is less than you'd find at other schools, since all students (yes, even those in the bottom third of their classes) have historically done very well in the match.

    The bottom line is that very few (if any?) medical students regret coming to Hopkins. True, you'll see more sunny days in SF than Baltimore, but there's more to a medical education than weather. Please feel free to e-mail me ([email protected]) if I can help answer any of your questions regarding Hopkins.

    Cheers,

    doepug
    MS II, Johns Hopkins
     
  11. coop

    coop Senior Member
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    the thing that has come to bug me most about hopkins med during my four years as an undergrad here is not the competitiveness of the students (though i would say that most, not all, are quite intense, and a small, but not insignifcant proportion border on malignant). Rather it is the absolute refusal to confront their own competitiveness. I was sitting eating lunch on my interview day, talking to a very high strung second year, who, after she got done telling the story of how 3rd years had, as a prank that morning, posted fake horrible grades outside of 2nd years class and freaked everyone out, said the same thing as doepug. When asked, in regards to the story, about the competitive reputation, she blamed it all on the undergrads. I had to repress the laughter. But I talked to md/phds in my lab, and other med students, all tell you the same thing "it's all the undergrads' fault."

    There are really 2 problems I have with it, first, hopkins med and hospital so greatly overshadow the ugrad in terms of reputation that it would be nearly impossible for our reputation to effect theirs. And second, while there are some competitive undergrads here, I won't deny that at all, the reputation is dramatically overdrawn. The point is, we are used as an excuse and a cop out, because hopkins med has no desire to confront their competetive atmosphere and try to change it. My advice is to head west my friend.
     
  12. lady in red

    lady in red Senior Member
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    if you are worried about prestige, I would rank them:
    1) Hopkins
    2) UCSF
    3) Stanford
    Hopkins, no question, surpasses most top 10 schools in reputation and all kinds of rankings.
     
  13. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats
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  14. Vader

    Vader Dark Lord of the Sith
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  15. Scooby Doo

    Scooby Doo IEatShavedPussyCats
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    Yep,

    That's what I meant Vader. Personally, I would choose UCSF ANYDAY over Stanford....mainly b/c of the area...Also b/c of cost :)
     
  16. I am glad that some people could straighten out some of the "myths" about Hopkins. I was told that it was ultra-competitive because of a grading system that was A,A-,B+...etc. I guess I was misinformed. I am sure that everyone matches extremely well from Hopkins.... I dont think there is a doubt about that. As far as reputation... I would say that Hopkins is sort-of in a different group than UCSF and Stanford. Although they are all great schools.... Hopkins and Harvard are kinda in a league of their own. Personally...I would pick UCSF first because of location and cost. By the way..... at UCSF you get experience at San Francisco General Hospital. I think that gets a patient population similar to any other county hospital in the US... whether it is in Baltimore, County USC, Cook County...or whatever. I shadowed my brother who is a resident at UCSF for 3 months and I saw EVERYTHING, and often too.
     
  17. YBee

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  18. Vader

    Vader Dark Lord of the Sith
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  19. choker

    choker Senior Member
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    keep in mind that stanford is HEAVILY lecture-based. i heard average of 35-40 hours lecture time a week. also, they REALLY push research there and a 5th year there. on the other hand, they get long white coats.
     
  20. UCLA2000

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    Vader...you mean that in some places white stuff falls from the sky????
     
  21. yodi

    yodi See things as they are.
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    sorry if this info is already there somewhere in
    SDN, but has anyone got accepted into UCSF
    while getting rejected pre-interview at Hopkins
    and/or Stanford?

    That's pretty much my case, except I'm waiting for the UCSF acceptance. I dunno, though, seeing that people who are likely to get into Stanford/JHU are likely to get into UCSF as well...and vice versa...can anyone prove me wrong?

    (btw I'm what I like to call a "aggravatingly traditional applicant", 3.9, 10/12/Q/13, 1 yr ea. clinical & research, music group leader, peer advisor, some homeless outreach, currently subbing for public school..yeah!)

    thanks
     
  22. Dr. Dodger Dog

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    i am waiting for UCSF post interview... accepted to hopkins... and rejected post secondary from Stanford... don't know what the correlation is....

    As for my impressions after interviewing, I really loved Hopkins. The students were all happy to be there and I didn't feel the ultra competitiveness that everyone seems to talk about. Reputation... Hopkins is awesome. Cost of living is better than SF too. You can get an awesome downtown apartment in Baltimore for around 800 bucks for a 1 bedrm it seems. Tuition-- yeah SF is cheaper but I don't want to regret not going to Hopkins. So in my mind, I won't base my decision completely on cost.

    That being said... it's a hard decision that has to be made on an individual basis.

    oh yeah and for grading... i don't see what the big deal about grades vs pass/fail is. We've dealt with grades all our lives... I'm sure I can deal with two more years of it. And besides, grades ur first two years don't count for much anyway. If anything it'll keep you on ur toes and help you prepare better for the USMLE.
     
  23. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    Hmmm...pretty confident about that UCSF acceptance, Jedi Master Yoda, er Yodi... So what are we trying to prove wrong here? It's not quite clear...
     
  24. gramcracker

    gramcracker Emergency Medicine Attending
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    Stanford was nice, to say the least. They give excellent financial aid, and I really love the 5th year option. If I go there, I'm definitely taking it.

    The one major bad thing I see about Hopkins: the neighborhood. I talked to a student there who said it's pretty much expected to get your car broken into at least once. At an interview with a Yale faculty member, I asked her about safety in New Haven, and she said, Well, it's not the best neighborhood, you have to be smart, but I did my residency at Hopkins, and it's MUCH better than east Baltimore.

    Any Hopkins people able to assuage my fears?
     
  25. jot

    jot

    i'm obviously not a hopkins person - so they can respond as well


    its true that you have to be smart - but its a comfort zone thing. if you aren't comfortable in hopkins's surroundings, cahnces are your fears won't be ameliorated easily. i honestly felt just fine around hopkins - but i grew up in urban nairobi, so my tolerance is high. its completely fine if you don't feel comfortable there -- and many people don't. the weather in palo alto has got to be better though! congrats on stanf man
     
  26. xaelia

    xaelia neenlet
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    Obviously, you should:

    1) Interview at all three schools.
    2) Get accepted at all three schools.
    3) Weigh the most important factors for you personally, whether it's the city, the students, the facilities, the curriculum, the reputation, the weather, etc.

    Each school has a decent enough reputation to give you a head start in getting whichever residency you choose; Hopkins is probably better if you want to remain on the east coast, and UCSF/Stanford are probably better for the west coast. Having attended Hopkins undergrad, transferred to Stanford, and then lived in San Francisco for a year, I'd have to say that I'd most prefer attending UCSF. Stanford came within one vote of having serious accreditation problems a few years ago for their miserable teaching facilities, Hopkins is in a gruesome part of an ugly city...UCSF just seems as though it would have a better quality of life.

    And, I will be attending none of them. :rolleyes:
     
  27. DarkChild

    DarkChild Senior Member
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    yeah the previous poster pointed out something worth draw attention too about stanford.. stanfords med school facilities are old and a little worn down. specifically its med school library is supposed to be terrible.
    I was at JHU for a summer.. I just thought b'more was weak. My rankings:
    UCSF
    Hopkins
    Stanford
     
  28. LizardKing

    LizardKing Veteran Member
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    I just want to add that Hopkins isn't really grade-based. I'm sure most of you know, it's Honors/High Pass/Pass/Fail up here. In any case, even straight Pass/Fail schools still rank you for AOA Honor Society purposes. So don't be fooled, hehe.

    While there are some really competitive individuals at Hopkins, every med school will have its share of competitive people, tension, etc. Plus it varies from class to class. I'd base my decision more on curriculum differences among schools than "vibes" you get from people there.

    Let's see, what else...Yea Baltimore sucks. I'm not gonna sugar coat that. I probably haven't lived here long enough to appreciate everything or know where everything is, but it does pale in comparison to SF. There's not much to do here, and the city's poorly taken care of...roads are all jacked up, that kind of thing. That being said, Baltimore is really close to fun places like DC, NYC, and Philly (+ Atlantic City). Decent beaches in Ocean City are nearby too. The suburbs of Baltimore aren't that bad either.

    As far as safety, yeah it's an issue but it's not something I worry about daily. As long as you use common sense and don't walk around at midnight, etc. it's no big deal.

    -LK
    Hopkins Med Class of 2006
     
  29. LizardKing

    LizardKing Veteran Member
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    I guess the one BIG plus at Hopkins is the training and the reputation. They go hand-in-hand...it's a tough place to train and you see everything here at the hospital. Other doctors, residency directors, etc. know that and look very favorably upon Hopkins grads.
     
  30. Gradient Echo

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    I go to Hopkins and my impression is that the medical campus, although in a bad neighborhood, is not THAT unsafe. The reason I say this is that there are security guards posted at every street corner. I dont know about the car thievery thing, because I dont live on campus. But I havent heard about any incidents like that among my colleagues.

    Some people have this idea that people are getting shot and stabbed daily on the Hopkins campus.... its not nearly that bad. However, if you stroll off campus into the surrounding neighborhoods (where there arent any security guards) then its obviously much more dangerous. I have never felt unsafe on the medical campus itself though.

    If you are a paranoid person who is constantly looking behind your back, then the Hopkins location is not for you, its obviously not in a plush suburb. But its not hell on earth either.
     
  31. ChaCha47

    ChaCha47 Junior Member
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    I didn't apply to Stanford because they don't seem to have much in the way of a county hospital where I could actually learn by doing instead of watching. I hear that the counter-argument is "True, our students may only see one gunshot wound during their 4 years here, but that one time they REALLY learn it." I know for myself I learn something better when I do it more than just once. But of course, there is more to becoming a doctor than learning emergency medicine.

    I didn't apply to Hopkins because Baltimore is just too nasty for me. I come from southern california and dealing with living in a junkyard where it snows just doesn't appeal to me.

    And of course UCSF is my dream school. I like how they encorporate patient and doctor interaction right away, instead of just throwing you into an exam room your third year. Like USC, they completely made-over their curriculum in 2000, and next year's class will be generation 3 of this new curriculum. I'm just not a fan of spending 40-50 hours a week in lecture. I think it's important to recognize that doctors (and patients!!) have much quicker access to broad information (how many of my fellow ER volunteers have seen the residents looking stuff up on WebMD in the ER physician lounge?) -- and the important thing is to train medical students in the situations they will encounter, and the differential problem-solving process they must undertake.

    I had my interview at UCSF earlier this month (Nov), and I hear that interviewees have a 50% chance of getting in. Here's hoping, right?
     
  32. jtheater

    jtheater Senior Member
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    I want to clarify some points about Stanford, as there seems to be a lot of misinformation or assumptions about the school. I went there as an undergraduate and recently interviewed, and although it is not my first choice, I think it would be a great place to attend medical school.

    First, Stanfod does have a county hospital as one of its clinical sites. You can do many of your rotations through this hospital (Santa Clara Valley Med). At first, I thought, oh well this isn't a Bellvue or Cook County. It's not. However, it is often considered the best county hospital in the country and serves as a model for others to emmulate. It is a level 1 Trauma Center that sees a heck of a lot of gun shot, motorcycle, burns, and other traumas. Stanford is also a level-1 trauma unit, but does see fewer traumas than SF general or the Valley.

    Second, yes Stanford does have some poor classrooms and the library definitely needs refurbishing. If the atmosphere of the library is important, then this is a downside. However, the staff and the actual resources are amazing. Plus the "old style" library with big couches, chandeliers, and leather chairs is literally down the street if you do want that atmosphere.

    Third, pre-clinical classes are taught with traditional didactic lectures and within traditional disciplines. This has both positive and negative aspects. People can take classes therefore when they want to. In modular schools, you have to take all or none of a section. At Stanford if you want an easier quarter or there is an art class you really want to take, you can postpone a med school class.

    Financial aid is awesome and other funding is readily available to do research (and this doesn't mean science either, one med student wrote a children's coloring book for kids with cancer), travel grants (I know one person who funded a trip to Papua New Guinea with me using this money and another to Zimbabwe). If you do the 5 year plan your fifth year is free and you probably would save about 60K if you were a teaching assistant or RA for some of the time (you get 12K-18K a quarter depending on what you teach).

    If research is your thing, Stanford is a powerhouse. Most of all research that happens at Stanford is extremely well recieved. The quality is pretty extraordinary. I am only realizing this after leaving the University and seeing a lot of work come out of other places that as a whole doesn't match Stanford. (However, UCSF and Hopkins are obviously very well regarded in this too).

    I think Stanford is the right place for people who want a much more relaxed atmosphere for medical school. As an undergrad we all joked it was like going to a school at a country club. Classes in the moring, tennis in the afternoon, and a swim to cool off. Sounds snobby, but compared to East Coast schools, we have a lot to learn on that end. We just enjoy life. Saying that, for me... I think I am ready for a new experience. Although Stanford is still a top choice because it allows for flexibility and more opportunities to explore other disciplines.

    Hope that helps clarify some of the positive aspects of the program. There are some negative ones just like there are at any school. And if you have even one of these choices, I would count yourself very lucky. Good luck!
     
  33. BlueJayBill

    BlueJayBill Member
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    Yeah, after talking to a lot of ugrads at Hopkins who go to the medical school, the noncompetitive mantra is just a defense mechanism that students use to reassure themselves. Talking to people privately, there is a heavy amount of competition (often self-imposed), but it doesn't get nasty or affect people's attitudes toward others. Most ugrads who go to the med school actually feel like the med school is more competitive.

    After talking to students & faculty, I dont think that "competitiveness" is the issue, as much as there is little outlet for the intensity (or woundness) imposed on the medical students. Whether Baltimore sucks or the relative crappy student facilities (who loved PCTB & Reed-are ya kiddin me??), students dont have that many outlets to explore the other aspects of LIFE.

    Oh yeah don't listen to the Philly, NY, DC excuses for Baltimore. BS, plain and simple In medical school, do you think you'll honestly have the time to go to these places anytime you want to enjoy basic things? They pulled that line during ugrad. It was really tough in ugrad to pull it off, and i can imagine the difficulty during 3rd or 4th year.

    Don't get me wrong, I love Hopkins and don't regret my choice at all. In fact, I wouldn't mind sticking around for another 4 years. Just call a spade for a spade.

    2 cents,

    Bill
     
  34. MacGyver

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    Look folks, Baltimore absollutely sucks no doubt about it.

    bluejaybill,

    so from your commentary I assume you just sit in your room and study all day because you are damn straight about baltimore sucking. Why the HELL would you want to stay there? Hopkins undergrad is not that prestigious either. I dont understand why you list all the negatives of B-more (which you are right about) but then you say you like living there and dont regret it? You must be one of those infamous hopkins undergrad gunners.

    coop and bluejaybill are two reasons (and both hopkins undergrads) who are good examples of why people should think carefully about hopkins med.
     
  35. UCDsikh

    UCDsikh Junior Member
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    I've just gone through all the messages in this thread, because personally I'm going through the same thought process right now. I'm into Stanford, and waiting from UCSF and Harvard. (I didn't consider Hopkins)

    For me location is the prime importance, as long as the school has a solid reputation. Because we can't be 100% sure about those rankings that are put out anyways. Being in the top ten or fifteen is good enough for me, as that means that I should get the necessary training. While reputation matters it is also a matter of individual interest and motivation, and how well you use the resources you have. Most reputable medical schools are going to give you enough freedom to do what you think is right for you.

    So having set aside this claim of reputation (and Harvard, UCSF, Stanford, Hopkins are all up there and equally reputable), I would think that the location is most important because this is where you will spend the four years or longer of your life. For this everybody has their own preference; some like urban settings, some rural and some suburban. You choose, but one thing for sure, we ALL probably want to be in a safe and friendly atmosphere.

    Considering that, and for me personally, the cost (I'm cali resident), my top choice would be UCSF with Stanford a close second (For those of you who are not aware, Stanford has awesome finaid, and they told me it would be cheaper for me to go to Stanford than UCSF, YES Stanford said that!!). Harvard is really great (location, reputation) except that it is a little pricy and country-clubbish for me, and I'm not used to living with snow. Hopkins, I can't say, but reading these responses seems like living there day to day would impose an unnecessary stress and tension. At least I want to be in a place that alleviates my stress from medical school rigor, not a place that adds to it!!

    So pick the right PLACE for you....all of these schools have GREAT reputation.

    And by the way, I've travelled some for interviews and other things, and nothing beats living in California (weather, diversity, you name it)

    just my thoughts---
     
  36. Saluki

    Saluki 1K Member
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    I don't know much about UCSF and Hopkins, but I can tell you that Stanford is beautiful, the professors aren't snobbish at all but really nice and down to earth. However, a lot of the southern state schools give you a lot better deal for your money, have really good pass rates on the USMILE and I heard an examiner say once that the students from the big name schools often spent a lot more time in basic science and less in patient care and were actually less well prepared. Big names are OK, but I'm all for UAMS(which contrary to a couple posts I've seen had an average MCAT score for the entering class of 29 which is comparable to Loyola and an average gpa of 3.7(and believe me,the schools around here are still using the McGruff reader, there isn't any grade inflation!) So I say, go to the state school, pay a reasonable price, get a great education and if you want to go someplace with fancy name go there for you residency!
     
  37. paean

    paean Senior Member
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    Um, not true at UCSF. And not true at the other pass/fail school I almost went to (Case Western). Ranking is based on the clerkship years where we are H/P/F. As long as you pass the first two years, they don't go into the equasion. Also, anyone can see that having H/HP/P/F is the same type of division as ABCF, even down to the majority of the class getting Bs. I was really impressed by the students at Hopkins, and while I enjoy going to a strictly P/F pre-clinical school, it wasn't part of my decision of where to go. But I think you're being misleading by saying that Hopkins isn't grade based.
     
  38. UCLA2000

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    ..I'd choose Penn!
     
  39. LizardKing

    LizardKing Veteran Member
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    Schools may say they don't rank, but they do. Like I said earlier, it's purely for AOA purposes. It's never posted or anything like that. The 2 years of preclinical grades and rankings are needed to select junior AOA members. It might be different at UCSF though. It's very rare for a school not to keep a secret ranking of some sort though.

    I see what you're saying about H/HP/P/F being similar to ABCF. It's not quite the same though. There's no A-,B+, B-, etc. Those -'s and +'s, I think, would add a great deal more stress. In any case, at Hopkins the majority of the class (over 65%) will end up getting P's only. It's really not the same as a bell-curve grade distribution because so many are clustered around P instead of HP. Yea, I'd rather have a straight P/F system, but I think it's an ok compromise between that and grades.

     
  40. LizardKing

    LizardKing Veteran Member
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    BlueJayBill: Well since I go to Hopkins Med, I should know better than you do, hehe, how much free time we have to go to other cities. This semester I've already made several trips to DC, and visited Philly, Atlantic City, Ocean City, and NYC a couple times each. Many of my classmates have done the same. Med students have more free time than you think. You JHU peeps are more hardcore than we are! Of course, 3rd year is different...no matter what school you go to, during your surgery rotation you won't have the time and energy to go to the bar, etc.

     
  41. Random Access

    Random Access 1K Member
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    The interviewer was on crack...Maybe she spent too much time up Dixwell (where it is dangerous and they do sell crack)...
     
  42. Thewonderer

    Thewonderer Senior Member
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    Agree with above statement. It is very very rare to have no AOA. I have heard that Yale and Harvard don't give out AOA. But all the other schools that are pass/fail, most likely keep your exam grades so they can give out junior AOA. If your school has AOA, your schools RANKS all of you...... Just be aware.

    All schools have gunners. There are gunners at Yale, Harvard, Hopkins, Stanford, Penn, Duke, Jefferson, Mt. Sinai, NYU, USC, etc. However, more so at the top 10 schools. But you cannot say that Yale has fewer gunners than Hopkins and vice versa for lots of schools. that's the reality of things. All the admissions brochures make each school look and sound so nice. But the fact is that the kids beside you right now who has 3.9 (and ruin many of your classes' curves) and 37 on his or her MCAT will more likely get into a top 10 school than another person with 3.6 and 30. You think that smarty, hard-working, overachieving kid next to you will change into laid-back, beer-drinking med student at Stanford med next year? fat chance....:eek:
     
  43. Cali Girl

    Cali Girl New Member

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    It is very rare to find a school that doesn't have AOA. There are only 3 med schools in the country like that -- Harvard, Stanford, and UCSD. Yale does have AOA, they just wait to anounce who gets it until after the residency match takes place.

    Most schools that are pass/fail are only pass/fail in the preclinical years. In the clinical years they almost always have honors (like with UCSF). From what I have heard, UCSF and the other schools like that base the AOA rankings on how many honors you get during the clinical years. I don't know if they give out AOA to juniors, and if so, how they would do that.
     
  44. Miss Dr.

    Miss Dr. Member
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    stanford is an awesome med school. so is ucsf. if debating between the 2---remember that one has a beautiful country club campus. the other offers you the fun of a city. depends on what you want as your backyard during medical school.
     

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