Hopkins vs. Stanford

[Tyger]

I am deciding between Hopkins and Stanford. I know that they are both good schools. But, I was wondering what everybody else thought were the strengths and weaknesses of the programs in comparison.

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[Dr.Watson]

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[fotografía]

There's a lot to day, both amazing places, and you can't go wrong either way. But in a nutshell, from my visits and from what people have told me, I'd say that the clinical training at Hopkins is much stronger, the research opportunities are both stellar, and quality of life would be MUCH better (in my opinion) at Stanford because of sunshine and P/F (i.e. non-competative environment). Both schools have amazing match lists, but Stanford does seem to match more on the West Coast (probably preference)... perhaps something to consider. I also really loved Stanford's curriculum, the concentrations, the med scholar's program etc. Oh and Stanford is supposed to have some of the best aid of any school, so maybe wait for fan aid packages? Really the only thing I think that Hopkins has over Stanford is clinical training in that bad-ass hospital. Stanford's hospitals seemed uber-specialized and heavy on tertiary care, if that's your thing...

 

[Stolenspatulas]

stanford's class size is very small. could play in.

 

[Mr. Tee]

I would go to Stanford. California vs. Baltimore, no contest. I would feel very safe in Palo Alto, not so in East Baltimore. SF > Baltimore, DC, etc.

Stanford would most likely be cheaper, which is the big deal-maker.

Stanford is a true university! Everything's on one campus, and they actually have sports worth watching, if that stuff floats your boat.

Stanford med overall is smaller. The students all seem to know each other well. There are also less faculty, and consequently less research available. However, the quality of research is higher at Stanford IMO.

Stanford curriculum is the BEST!!! True P/F for all 4 years, how can you go wrong? No rankings, no AOA, AND no classes on Wednesdays. And the students still place in the top residencies. Top residency for the least stress = I'm matriculating, see you there.

 

[DumbartonBridge]

I actually disagree with the above posts which state that Hopkins provides superior clinical training. I'm perhaps somewhat biased, as well as a bit better informed, than the above posters as I am a current Stanford student who entered clinical clerkships this year. I've gone through many of my core rotations (med, surg - not yet peds) and I can state that the clinical training is excellent.

Stanford Hospital, like Johns Hopkins Hospital, is a tertiary care center which means that it gets many transfers and referrals from area hospitals for complicated patients. It also serves as the primary care hospital for disadvantaged patients from around area including East Palo Alto, Redwood City, and much of the East Bay. In addition to Stanford Hospital, students rotate through the Palo Alto VA Med Center (PAVAMC), Kaiser Santa Clara, and the Santa Clara Valley Medical Center (SCVMC). All core rotations require students to be at multiple sites which provides a very diverse clinical experience. You'll see standard HMO-type patients at Kaiser SC and get a sense of how an HMO functions. The PAVAMC, although everyone says it about their own VA, is possibly the country's top VA. It's a great hospital and is an impressive research center in its own right. And finally, perhaps the best part of the training process, is SCVMC (also called The Valley). The Valley is a county hospital that serves disadvantaged and uninsured patients in San Jose and the South Bay. It's a large county hospital (for comparison, it's twice the size of San Francisco General and slightly larger than Cook County Hospital) - it's a great place and, like county hospitals everywhere, is very hectic and provides students with lots of opportunities. The Bay Area is possibly the most ethnically diverse area in the country and students have a lot of exposure to a variety of immigrant communities with varying levels of prior healthcare. I haven't done Peds yet so I can't talk as much about Packard Hospital and the peds training.

I think there is an East Coast bias against some of the west coast programs and there are long-standing attitudes that don't have a lot of basis in fact. It's hard as a pre-med to sort through this stuff because these things get passed around like the gospel truth and they ultimately don't mean much. On my clinical rotations, I've met current residents who went to medical school at Stanford and Johns Hopkins and I can't tell the difference between them in their abilities, etc. - I just know they are both farther along them I am and are both very good!!

In any case, you'll have lots of opportunities at both places and I'm sure you'll be able to accomplish whatever you want coming from either place. Good luck!

I used to post on these boards all the time as a pre-med and now I've just come back (under a new guise!) as I get ready to start the residency application process. Thought I'd check out the pre-med boards and saw people going through the same thought process I had a few years back (mine was HMS vs. Stanford and I'm glad I made the decision I did). Again, good luck!

 

[Tyger]

Thanks for the replies!
Regarding financial aid, Stanford said that students can do TAships/RAships. How easy is it to get these?

Also, Stanford pays tuition credit for traveling for international experience. Does anyone know if it is easy to get funding from Hopkins?

 

[FemalesCANTDriv]

Stanford. Christina Yang is an ex-graduate.

 

[xylem29]

I would go to Stanford. California vs. Baltimore, no contest. I would feel very safe in Palo Alto, not so in East Baltimore. SF > Baltimore, DC, etc.

Stanford would most likely be cheaper, which is the big deal-maker.

Stanford is a true university! Everything's on one campus, and they actually have sports worth watching, if that stuff floats your boat.

Stanford med overall is smaller. The students all seem to know each other well. There are also less faculty, and consequently less research available. However, the quality of research is higher at Stanford IMO.

Stanford curriculum is the BEST!!! True P/F for all 4 years, how can you go wrong? No rankings, no AOA, AND no classes on Wednesdays. And the students still place in the top residencies. Top residency for the least stress = I'm matriculating, see you there.

what i know now, is what i wish i knew then...i should've joined sdn a long time ago...then again, i should've made up my mind about medicine a long time ago too.

 

[Wannabemed]

One month as a graduate student at Stanford convinced me to withdraw my application to Stanford Med.

The ONE outstanding aspect of Stanford is that they really take care of housing for students....most of the grad/med/law/business students live in a couple Graduate housing units (Rains, Escondido Village,...) and it's like being a freshman all over again....except everyone is older!

But the town of Palo Alto sucks and the University itself is over-rated: the administration really doesn't give a f*ck about its students' education as long as US News tells everyone that Stanford is a great school.....



Med School barely escapes probation
April 6, 1999
By The Stanford Daily Staff
By Anitha Reddy
Contributing writer

The national agency that accredits American medical schools has
Narrowly voted not to place the School of Medicine on probation. A recent study found
the poor quality and condition of Stanford's teaching facilities unacceptable, according to
a letter the agency sent to President Casper. Accreditation by the national agency, the
Liaison Committee on Medical Education, is an eligibility requirement for institutions
seeking federal funds. Accreditation is also necessary if an institution's graduates are
to be eligible to take the United States Medical Licensing Examination, a test one must
pass to practice medicine in the U.S. The agency's letter to Casper included specific
condemnations of outdated lecture halls and teaching laboratories. The agency also had
harsh criticismfor the Medical School's library, which only has air conditioning in those
areas used by librarians, no bathrooms and a subpar computer system.

Michael Ennen, a third-year medical student, said conditions in the
library are so bad that "on any given Saturday there are just as many
Stanford medical students in the UC-San Francisco medical library as there
are in Stanford's. That many people drive up."
Administrators recognize that a problem exists at the school. At a
Recent Faculty Senate meeting, the medical school's senior associate dean for
Education and student affairs, Phyllis Gardner, deplored the "abysmal state of
our educational infrastructure ¬ library, classrooms, and information
technology." Casper has also said the medical school's teaching facilities
should be updated.
The LCME's harsh stance have been influenced by a petition signed by
99 percent of the student body calling for a greater attention to the quality
of teaching facilities. Ennen and another student, Jean Drouin, organized the petition last
fall and sent it to the LCME. In their cover letter, the students "encouraged
[the LCME] to remain steadfast in [its] requirements for Stanford's
accreditation," Ennen said.
According to Ennen, the "same [facilities] problems had been cited
in [accreditation] surveys since 1983. For 14 years the school blew them
off." Clinical Pharmacology Prof. Kenneth Melmon, head of the medical school
Faculty Senate, attempted to explain why the school did not act to improve
facilities following the LCME's earlier complaints. "I think first of all in the early
days of critique people didn't necessarily agree with the critique so they considered
it much less important than they consider it now. There were responses to it; maybe
they were whole-hearted, maybe they were half hearted, but there were responses.
There was a lot of incomplete communication on both sides," Melmon said.
While Director of Medical School Admissions Gabriel Garcia noted that
the "clinical facilities are outstanding," Medical School Dean Eugene Bauer
conceded that "other resources need to be brought to bear to upgrade our more
didactic teaching facilities." "We've been actively engaged in investigating the
various options that are available to us for dealing with these problems. The scope of
solutions that we're talking about are at a minimum of $40 million, possibly $40 to
$60 million," Bauer said.
At the recent Faculty Senate meeting in which these issues were
discussed, Melmon pointed out that Stanford, unlike other medical schools, had made
no large investment in its teaching facilities since its move to the Palo Alto campus in 1959.
A continued emphasis on building facilities for disease research rather than teaching has
created the current situation. "It is far easier to get federal funds to underwrite research
costs as opposed to teaching costs," Melmon added. "Nowhere did the LCME say anything
about the quality of the educational experience or deficiencies related to content of educational
experience," Bauer said. He stressed the opportunities for one-on-one interaction between
faculty and students working together on experiments at a premier research
institution.
"This is not a situation in which one can position research priorities versus educational priorities,"
Bauer said. Ennen, however, disagreed. "At the end of the day, that just doesn't wash. You don't go
and study in someone's research lab. As some abstract theoretical concept it's true. In day-to-day reality, research and educational space are not equivalent," he said. "Most students would say that the teachers are fantastic," Ennen continued. "But the facilities are crippling their ability to be innovative in the teaching techniques that they use. The physical space not only doesn't promote [such endeavors], it actually detracts
from them." While Ennen said that he would be the first to admit that "the decision to attend a certain
medical school is multifactorial, many prospective students had astutely honed in on the disparity between
Stanford's reputation and stature and the state of its facilities." Ennen and Garcia also differed on the effect that
an LCME decision to put the medical school on probation would have on recruitment efforts. Ennen
thought it would be "completely devastating," while Garcia thought it would have "a minor effect on those
people who were wavering between us and another school." Regardless of the hypothetical consequences of
probation, there now seems to be a galvanized consensus among both administrators and students
to overhaul teaching facilities. "This is something that clearly has to be done. This is something
that will be done. This is something that the LCME has mandated will be done," said Bauer.

 

[WhiteHatDoc]

And 8 years later.... Stanford emerged as the best west coast med school.

Way to go and find something from 1999.

One month as a graduate student at Stanford convinced me to withdraw my application to Stanford Med.

The ONE outstanding aspect of Stanford is that they really take care of housing for students....most of the grad/med/law/business students live in a couple Graduate housing units (Rains, Escondido Village,...) and it's like being a freshman all over again....except everyone is older!

But the town of Palo Alto sucks and the University itself is over-rated: the administration really doesn't give a f*ck about its students' education as long as US News tells everyone that Stanford is a great school.....



Med School barely escapes probation
April 6, 1999
By The Stanford Daily Staff
By Anitha Reddy
Contributing writer

The national agency that accredits American medical schools has
Narrowly voted not to place the School of Medicine on probation. A recent study found
the poor quality and condition of Stanford's teaching facilities unacceptable, according to
a letter the agency sent to President Casper. Accreditation by the national agency, the
Liaison Committee on Medical Education, is an eligibility requirement for institutions
seeking federal funds. Accreditation is also necessary if an institution's graduates are
to be eligible to take the United States Medical Licensing Examination, a test one must
pass to practice medicine in the U.S. The agency's letter to Casper included specific
condemnations of outdated lecture halls and teaching laboratories. The agency also had
harsh criticismfor the Medical School's library, which only has air conditioning in those
areas used by librarians, no bathrooms and a subpar computer system.

Michael Ennen, a third-year medical student, said conditions in the
library are so bad that "on any given Saturday there are just as many
Stanford medical students in the UC-San Francisco medical library as there
are in Stanford's. That many people drive up."
Administrators recognize that a problem exists at the school. At a
Recent Faculty Senate meeting, the medical school's senior associate dean for
Education and student affairs, Phyllis Gardner, deplored the "abysmal state of
our educational infrastructure ¬ library, classrooms, and information
technology." Casper has also said the medical school's teaching facilities
should be updated.
The LCME's harsh stance have been influenced by a petition signed by
99 percent of the student body calling for a greater attention to the quality
of teaching facilities. Ennen and another student, Jean Drouin, organized the petition last
fall and sent it to the LCME. In their cover letter, the students "encouraged
[the LCME] to remain steadfast in [its] requirements for Stanford's
accreditation," Ennen said.
According to Ennen, the "same [facilities] problems had been cited
in [accreditation] surveys since 1983. For 14 years the school blew them
off." Clinical Pharmacology Prof. Kenneth Melmon, head of the medical school
Faculty Senate, attempted to explain why the school did not act to improve
facilities following the LCME's earlier complaints. "I think first of all in the early
days of critique people didn't necessarily agree with the critique so they considered
it much less important than they consider it now. There were responses to it; maybe
they were whole-hearted, maybe they were half hearted, but there were responses.
There was a lot of incomplete communication on both sides," Melmon said.
While Director of Medical School Admissions Gabriel Garcia noted that
the "clinical facilities are outstanding," Medical School Dean Eugene Bauer
conceded that "other resources need to be brought to bear to upgrade our more
didactic teaching facilities." "We've been actively engaged in investigating the
various options that are available to us for dealing with these problems. The scope of
solutions that we're talking about are at a minimum of $40 million, possibly $40 to
$60 million," Bauer said.
At the recent Faculty Senate meeting in which these issues were
discussed, Melmon pointed out that Stanford, unlike other medical schools, had made
no large investment in its teaching facilities since its move to the Palo Alto campus in 1959.
A continued emphasis on building facilities for disease research rather than teaching has
created the current situation. "It is far easier to get federal funds to underwrite research
costs as opposed to teaching costs," Melmon added. "Nowhere did the LCME say anything
about the quality of the educational experience or deficiencies related to content of educational
experience," Bauer said. He stressed the opportunities for one-on-one interaction between
faculty and students working together on experiments at a premier research
institution.
"This is not a situation in which one can position research priorities versus educational priorities,"
Bauer said. Ennen, however, disagreed. "At the end of the day, that just doesn't wash. You don't go
and study in someone's research lab. As some abstract theoretical concept it's true. In day-to-day reality, research and educational space are not equivalent," he said. "Most students would say that the teachers are fantastic," Ennen continued. "But the facilities are crippling their ability to be innovative in the teaching techniques that they use. The physical space not only doesn't promote [such endeavors], it actually detracts
from them." While Ennen said that he would be the first to admit that "the decision to attend a certain
medical school is multifactorial, many prospective students had astutely honed in on the disparity between
Stanford's reputation and stature and the state of its facilities." Ennen and Garcia also differed on the effect that
an LCME decision to put the medical school on probation would have on recruitment efforts. Ennen
thought it would be "completely devastating," while Garcia thought it would have "a minor effect on those
people who were wavering between us and another school." Regardless of the hypothetical consequences of
probation, there now seems to be a galvanized consensus among both administrators and students
to overhaul teaching facilities. "This is something that clearly has to be done. This is something
that will be done. This is something that the LCME has mandated will be done," said Bauer.

 

[Mr. Tee]

Michael Ennen, a third-year medical student, said conditions in the
library are so bad that "on any given Saturday there are just as many
Stanford medical students in the UC-San Francisco medical library as there
are in Stanford's. That many people drive up."

Stanford students still go up to the UCSF library to study, but probably b/c they are en route to enjoying themselves in the city later that night.

 

[Wannabemed]

And 8 years later.... Stanford emerged as the best west coast med school.

Way to go and find something from 1999.

Is it the "best" because US News told you it was the "best"? How do you know it's the "best"?

So you're telling me that in 1999, when Stanford Med ALMOST DIDN'T GET ACCREDITED, it was unranked according to US News? I'm willing to bet it was in the top 20, if not in the top 10, during that year.

It's true Stanford Med does tend to attract very smart students....the kind that would secure impressive residencies no matter where they went to school.

As for my relationship with Stanford Med,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvCmwNdfTWg

 

[Mr. Tee]

Is it the "best" because US News told you it was the "best"? How do you know it's the "best"?

It's true Stanford Med does tend to attract very smart students....the kind that would secure impressive residencies no matter where they went to school.

As for my relationship with Stanford Med,
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NvCmwNdfTWg

US News actually has UCSF as being the "best". Stanford is the best because it has all 4 years P/F and no classes on Wednesdays for M1 and M2. The rest is just icing on the cake.

That's alot of icing.

 

[Wannabemed]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=378151&highlight=stanford+medical

 

[Stolenspatulas]

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=378151&highlight=stanford+medical

HOLY FU<K

Now thats a lot of icing.

 

[Mr_Doc]

well i heard the students at hopkins are crazy. they still your books and rip pages out just so they can recieve a higher grade than you. besides that point....cali > all

 

[Mr. Tee]

HOLY FU<K

Now thats a lot of icing.

ha ha funny!

 

[Towelie]

Stanford students still go up to the UCSF library to study, but probably b/c they are en route to enjoying themselves in the city later that night.

Students at Stanford actually seemed way more stressed than the Hopkins students did to me.

And residencies seem to absolutely hate it when schools are P/F with no ranking for 4 years and no AOA.

 

[omegaxx]

what i know now, is what i wish i knew then...i should've joined sdn a long time ago...then again, i should've made up my mind about medicine a long time ago too.

I was in Palo Alto for 8 months and it was a DESERT. San Fran kicked ass but Palo Alto? Urg! I was driven so insane in my last few months I'd Caltrain up to San Fran every single weekend so I could at least feel like I'm around some civilzation. Also, when I told my co-workers I was thinking of med school they all asked, "So, are you going for UCSF?" No one ever mentioned Stanford, ever.

They are also not very Canadian-friendly, from what I heard

 

[Doctor&Geek]

Students at Stanford actually seemed way more stressed than the Hopkins students did to me.

And residencies seem to absolutely hate it when schools are P/F with no ranking for 4 years and no AOA.

And yet, throughout four years of tracking match lists, Stanford always seems to have the best top-to-bottom list.

 

[Stolenspatulas]

And yet, throughout four years of tracking match lists, Stanford always seems to have the best top-to-bottom list.

uh, i sort of doubt this. i havent made an analytical assessment of the lists (if thats even possible), but something tells me that JHU or Harvard has the best top-to-bottom list by the sheer amount of incest (placing their own students into their affiliated hospitals).

 

[dynx]

One month as a graduate student at Stanford convinced me to withdraw my application to Stanford Med.

AMEN! I did some research at stanford before medical school and ended up not even applying...and its the closest school to my family. 4 years later, I didn't apply there for residency either. I may be biased by my experience but you can't imagine a more ridiculous/annoying group of people. Apply UCSF if you want cali, better training and better name. Stanford is a paper tiger in every way except research dollars. If the USnews and world reports didn't rank on NIH funding stanford training would be the butt end of a joke.

 

[Mr. Tee]

If the USnews and world reports didn't rank on NIH funding stanford training would be the butt end of a joke.

The School of Medicine itself doesn't actually get THAT much NIH funding. However the NIH grant funding per faculty is very impressive. Can you elaborate on "ridiculous/annoying group of people" though?

 

[Stolenspatulas]

Wow. A lot of stanford hate. I've never heard anything like this about stanford. Maybe my head is in the clouds.

 

[Mr. Tee]

Students at Stanford actually seemed way more stressed than the Hopkins students did to me.

And residencies seem to absolutely hate it when schools are P/F with no ranking for 4 years and no AOA.

Stanford's match list is impressive, though.

 

[supahdren]

I can elaborate on "ridiculous/annoying group of people": that's a bunch of crap. I was at Stanford for years, and I know many of the people who are MS1-4's now, and I like all of them. Not one of them is ridiculous or annoying, and they are all quite different people. I always think it's absurd when people say "people at XX med school are jerks!" ...come on, that's such a silly and broad generalization. Also, "better name" is maybe the most subjective statement on earth. You will not get a bad medical education at Stanford, and this talk of "barely accredited" and "annoying people" is just pure bunkum. So the med school buildings are slightly older than other things on the campus. Guess what? You can go study in your choice of 20+ beautiful libraries anywhere else on the campus, which, by the way, looks like a cross between an arboretum and an architectural utopia. Anybody who tells you Stanford is not amazing is huffing glue. Perfect? No. Is UCSF or Hopkins better? Depends what you want. Awesome? Yes, definitely.

 

[dynx]

Can you elaborate on "ridiculous/annoying group of people" though?

I can elaborate on "ridiculous/annoying group of people": that's a bunch of crap. I was at Stanford for years, and I know many of the people who are MS1-4's now, and I like all of them. Not one of them is ridiculous or annoying, and they are all quite different people. I always think it's absurd when people say "people at XX med school are jerks!" ...come on, that's such a silly and broad generalization. Also, "better name" is maybe the most subjective statement on earth. You will not get a bad medical education at Stanford, and this talk of "barely accredited" and "annoying people" is just pure bunkum. So the med school buildings are slightly older than other things on the campus. Guess what? You can go study in your choice of 20+ beautiful libraries anywhere else on the campus, which, by the way, looks like a cross between an arboretum and an architectural utopia. Anybody who tells you Stanford is not amazing is huffing glue. Perfect? No. Is UCSF or Hopkins better? Depends what you want. Awesome? Yes, definitely.

I rest my case

 

[supahdren]

I rest my case

Wow, a personal attack. You are definitely "resting your case."

 

[Mr. Tee]

Wow, a personal attack. You are definitely "resting your case."

lol yeah, low blow.

Wannabemed, what exactly happened during your 1 month as a grad student that made you withdraw your app?

 

[wannabedoc85]

i absolutely loved stanford when i was there. the students in NO WAY seemed more stressed than hopkins. the curriculum looked great, and the faculty that i met were awesome. i am excited for second look. if i see anything that resembles the comments on this thread, i will let you know, but I dont see it happening...

 

[dynx]

Wow, a personal attack. You are definitely "resting your case."

Personal attacks?

Anybody who tells you Stanford is not amazing is huffing glue.

I was merely pointing out that people who want to spend 4 years with people like you should apply to stanford. You must be tired and cranky from all the call you guys don't take.

 

[Mr. Tee]

I was merely pointing out that people who want to spend 4 years with people like you should apply to stanford. You must be tired and cranky from all the call you guys don't take.

I want to spend 4 years with people like supahdren. Now Stanford please accept me!

 

[supahdren]

I was merely pointing out that people who want to spend 4 years with people like you should apply to stanford. You must be tired and cranky from all the call you guys don't take.

My comment was directed to everybody in this thread who was thrashing Stanford. It was not directed at you personally, and you are being disingenuous by suggesting that it was. It is also clear that I was not literally saying that you huff glue. The expression is purposefully absurd because I wanted to use it to attack a position, not a person. You, however, pointed to my exact words and then made a (negative) personal judgment of the type of person I must be to have typed them. And then, in this very post that I'm responding to, you did the same thing again.

Do you really think that you are an accurate judge of "people like me" based on one post that I made on an internet forum? 90% of what I wrote was about Stanford, yet the entirety of your last two posts was about about me. You also know nothing about our schedules, so making a snide aside about your being in med school and taking call does nothing to make you look cooler or more hardcore.

 

[dynx]

My comment was directed to everybody in this thread who was thrashing Stanford. It was not directed at you personally, and you are being disingenuous by suggesting that it was. It is also clear that I was not literally saying that you huff glue. The expression is purposefully absurd because I wanted to use it to attack a position, not a person. You, however, pointed to my exact words and then made a (negative) personal judgment of the type of person I must be to have typed them. And then, in this very post that I'm responding to, you did the same thing again.

Do you really think that you are an accurate judge of "people like me" based on one post that I made on an internet forum? 90% of what I wrote was about Stanford, yet the entirety of your last two posts was about about me. You also know nothing about our schedules, so making a snide aside about your being in med school and taking call does nothing to make you look cooler or more hardcore.

Just giving my perspective.

To everyone else: Notice also that stanford students are very defensive.

 

[wannabedoc85]

Just giving my perspective.

To everyone else: Notice also that stanford students are very defensive.

this is truly absurd and getting out of hand. lets stick to the subject. lets not attack the students at stanford-- most of the ones I met during interview were awesome anyway, and i wouldnt mind spending 4 yrs with them

 

[supahdren]

I'm not even a Stanford med student; I was there for a different degree. And I agree that this has gotten out of hand. Sorry, and I hope those of you who are considering Stanford will let the school speak for itself.

 

[silverlining1]

For what it's worth (if anything), I am currently a junior undergrad at Stanford. I do research in a lab at the medical school, and I work with a few med students as well as a resident. They all love Stanford for many of the reasons you are likely aware of (P/F, research opportunities, friendly and diverse peers, etc.); in fact, the resident went to medical school at Stanford and enjoyed it so much that he wanted to stay for his residency in neurosurgery.

I, like stolenspatulas, am shocked to hear all this "Stanford hate". I maintain hope that Stanford Medical School isn't a crap place to be, mostly because of the people I know there and what they tell me about their great experiences. I hope those of you who are considering Stanford were able to talk to current students during your interviews or will be able to do so during second look. Best of luck making your decision.

 

[HopkinsOne]

Also, Stanford pays tuition credit for traveling for international experience. Does anyone know if it is easy to get funding from Hopkins?

Tyger - Hopkins gives $3,000 for research with any Hopkins-affiliated researcher in the summer after the first year. Given that there are people with Hopkins affiliations worldwide, this could be useful towards an international experience. The same page lists some small additional funding available for international travel. Keep in mind that this money is received on top of any other funding - including departmental funding, payment by your PI, and scholarships.

About the Hopkins vs Stanford debate:
Both are highly regarded institutions, and my gut instinct is to say, "You visited both schools - what did you think?" You're asking a really interesting but broad question, so you're getting similarly broad answers, bordering on a flamewar.

Some things are virtually impossible to answer objectively. For example, does Hopkins have better clinical training than Stanford? Nobody has spent a full two years doing clinical training at both places, so nobody is eminently qualified to answer that. Sure, some people have done their clinical training at one and then residency at the other, but they're seeing a cross section of students that may or may not correspond with the majority of med students at either institution (and I haven't even seen anyone with such credentials posting in this thread).

My suggestion is to find specific questions that would help you make your decision and ask those. Being aware of which ones are essentially unanswerable will make the process more fruitful. This is not to say that you won't get some good discussion out of this thread, but the ad hominems have already begun - no fault of yours.

 

[Zippership]

Tyger - Hopkins gives $3,000 for research with any Hopkins-affiliated researcher in the summer after the first year. Given that there are people with Hopkins affiliations worldwide, this could be useful towards an international experience. The same page lists some small additional funding available for international travel. Keep in mind that this money is received on top of any other funding - including departmental funding, payment by your PI, and scholarships.

About the Hopkins vs Stanford debate:
Both are highly regarded institutions, and my gut instinct is to say, "You visited both schools - what did you think?" You're asking a really interesting but broad question, so you're getting similarly broad answers, bordering on a flamewar.

Some things are virtually impossible to answer objectively. For example, does Hopkins have better clinical training than Stanford? Nobody has spent a full two years doing clinical training at both places, so nobody is eminently qualified to answer that. Sure, some people have done their clinical training at one and then residency at the other, but they're seeing a cross section of students that may or may not correspond with the majority of med students at either institution (and I haven't even seen anyone with such credentials posting in this thread).

My suggestion is to find specific questions that would help you make your decision and ask those. Being aware of which ones are essentially unanswerable will make the process more fruitful. This is not to say that you won't get some good discussion out of this thread, but the ad hominems have already begun - no fault of yours.

While I don't know this for sure, I would imagine that residency directors have a pretty good sense of how the clinical training in each institution compare. I understand the sentiment though - it's difficult to quantify this information especially without bias from things like perceived school ranking, quality of the education, rigor of admissions, etc.

 

[DumbartonBridge]

Wow - this has been entertaining reading. As I stated above, I am a current Stanford MS (3rd year) and can offer my own perspective on my experience for those interested. I personally have had an excellent experience and have been impressed by the education I have received - both in preclinical and clinical training. I think Stanford gets a lot of attention for its research but I've been very happy with my clinical experiences as well. My friends who have gone off to residency and are now finishing up their intern years have all felt well-prepared so I'm hopeful that my experience compares well with the training at other medical schools.

Regarding the above comment about Stanford's accreditation - Stanford was never in danger of losing its accreditation. As a general rule, I'd be wary of relying on news from a student newspaper, no matter how well-intentioned its the student journalist may be. Stanford had its accreditation review in 2006 (I had the opportunity to participate as a student) and the process went very well. There was actually an interesting incident when a student group met with committee members as part of the review and were complaining about aspects of the curriculum and the committee chair (committee members are faculty at different medical schools) starting laughing and stated - "You guys are spoiled - what you are complaining about it is a problem everywhere and Stanford does a better job of this than anyone." I don't even remember what the specific complaint was but the exchange made an impression on me. Here's a link to the Dean's newsletter which provides information about the most recent review:

http://deansnewsletter.stanford.edu/archive/03_20_06.html

Stanford's core medical education facilities were renovated the year before I started and I've been happy with them. They were definitely comparable to facilities at other schools I visited. Stanford is going to start building a new education center which sadly means that incoming students will have to put with construction for a year or two. Here's yet another link:

http://lkc.stanford.edu/

Regarding my call experiences - on core rotations, taking overnight call varies on the site and is entirely dependent on whether or not there is a bed available for the student. I was Q3 overnight call on my surgery core at the Valley and was Q4 overnight call on my medicine core at the Valley, at Kaiser and Stanford for those same rotations, I would generally be dismissed by 10 or 11 at night and would be expected to serve a full day the next day. Compared to my friends at other medical schools, I seem to be having similar experiences (perhaps even taking a bit more overnight call than some of my friends - I have a friend at one top school who has never taken overnight call on a core).

Not sure where the Canadian comment came from...there are a few Canadians in my class who seem happy enough and I've met several on the faculty (and there are probably quite a few more - they don't all have flags sewn onto their white coats).

People on this thread certainly do seem to have a lot of anger directed towards Stanford. I'm not sure what to say to that - I guess my only advice to people who are considering Stanford is try to determine if the culture and atmosphere and philosophy of the program is a good fit. Regarding the original question (which seems to have gotten lost along the way) - Stanford and Hopkins are both exceptional medical schools and can take you wherever you want to go. My sense is that the culture, and obviously the settings, are very different so hopefully the decision is a straightforward one. There are lots of great medical schools in the country and the good news is that it looks like you'll be going to a good one next year no matter what you decide.

 

[HopkinsOne]

While I don't know this for sure, I would imagine that residency directors have a pretty good sense of how the clinical training in each institution compare. I understand the sentiment though - it's difficult to quantify this information especially without bias from things like perceived school ranking, quality of the education, rigor of admissions, etc.

Hey, if residency directors want to enter the fray and let us know what they think, more power to them.

 

[ceyx]

Just read through the thread and…dude, some folk need to clam down. As pre-meds we can all get a little rabid at times, but there’s never any reason to become…what’s a strong enough word…‘vituperative’ about any institution or group of students.

I’m currently facing a Stanford vs. Wash U decision and wanted to check this thread out bc I see some communicably between Wash U and JH.

In my mind, SMS is distinguished by its scholarly concentrations. My understanding is that a lot of Stanfordians take 5 years to graduation. Seems to me that many come how having achieved _amazing_ things; others feel like the concentration is a hoop to jump through.

Personally, I’m super excited about the concentrations; they make SMS one of the handful of schools in the country that would support what I want to achieve during medical school. I think if you’re looking to do something unusual, or to do something really in depth (without going into a PhD), there’s no better place for you than SMS. But if you’re looking for a more direct and traditional path to an MD, Hopkins might be better--not that you can’t do amazingly diverse things at Hop, I just didn’t find the same interdisciplinary excitement when researching the school.

What say the current students at said institutions?

 

[modelslashactor]

about the extra year thing - you can do that at pretty much any med school and get funded, or go through an outside organization like doris duke etc and actually get PAID for the year. the only difference is that at stanford it is de facto mandatory. and by the way - perhaps the extra year has something to do with the good residency placement? i'd be willing to bet people at other schools who do an extra year also match quite well.

i like stanford a lot and probably would have gone if i got in, but this is one area that irked me both before and now. every other school has this, it is simply less advertised and not mandatory.

 

[DumbartonBridge]

Nothing like using my lunchtime during an outpatient rotation to write a post to SDN. I'm glad I've stayed away since being a premed otherwise I would have never gotten anything done!

There seems to be a lot of misinformation about Stanford floating around out there which implies there is a lot of misinformation about other schools as well. Be careful what you read on SDN - my recommendation is to contact the student's you met during your interviews at the various schools for more information. I helped interview applicants last year and always provided my email address and kept in touch with a number of people as they made their decisions.

Regarding the SC component of the curriculum - I happen to love it and it was a part of what brought me to Stanford. How much you get out of it, like a lot of things, is dependent on what you put into it. What I like about it is that it brings you into close contact with faculty with similar interests. It's been a great way for me to get additional mentoring from faculty outside of the traditional advising at the medical school. The SC's basically formalized the process of bringing like-minded faculty and students together and created a structure where students can pursue their interests. You can certainly do this at a lot of places and I happen to think this will become a very common model at many other medical schools over the next few years.

I'm planning on graduating in 4 years (maybe - I'm debating a residency area in which I don't have a lot of background so I am considering taking an additional year). About half of Stanford students graduate in 4 years and about half take 5 years (not including the MD-PhDs). Stanford has a substantial amount of internal funding present for students who want to take 5 years. I know lots of institutions have similar programs but, to emphasize this, students who take 5 years and do a lab project or whatever, are being paid to do so. There is a ton of info on this on Stanford's website so I recommend you go look at if interested. Many students also apply for external funding (Howard Hughes, yada yada) which makes for a great addition to the CV.

It's quite common for students to take an extra year if they are interested in applying to very competitive fields (rad onc, plastics, derm, optho, etc) in order to get more background in that area, do some research, get a great letter of rec from a leader in that field, etc. Doing that certainly helps Stanford students match into competitive fields and it's a tactic that students at all schools use.

Every school is different and is looking for different kinds of candidates - if you don't like the SC model and don't have a particular interest you want to pursue at Stanford then it's not the medical school for you.

Now back to clinic! Feel free to PM me if you have specific questions or, better yet, contact your student interviewer!!

 

[IckeyShuffle]

Stanford. Christina Yang is an ex-graduate.

 

[HopkinsOne]

But if you’re looking for a more direct and traditional path to an MD, Hopkins might be better--not that you can’t do amazingly diverse things at Hop, I just didn’t find the same interdisciplinary excitement when researching the school.

What say the current students at said institutions?

If you consider the cagefighter in the class of 2009 "direct and traditional", then I'd have to agree with you.

 

[ceyx]

If you consider the cagefighter in the class of 2009 "direct and traditional", then I'd have to agree with you.

Cagefighter? What is this 'cagefighter' of which you speak?

 

[macadamianut]

Cagefighter? What is this 'cagefighter' of which you speak?

Hopkins has a former Ultimate Fighter in the class of 2009. Seriously, he is jacked.

 

[ceyx]

Hopkins has a former Ultimate Fighter in the class of 2009. Seriously, he is jacked.

Damn Gina! And here I was thinking I was a non-traditional applicant.