hopkins vs. ucsf

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HiddenTruth

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location/personal preference aside, can we discuss if one is better than another (cards bound). Hopkins cardiology is clearly superior. Obviously, medicine at both very similar in reputation/caliber/training. But, looking at the fine points, totally objectively, does one have an edge above the other? Thanks.
 
I think Hopkins is definitely better known for cards, though you can probably do whatever you like out of either. I think the big advantage to UCSF would be location and slightly less call intern year - though I think the open ICU makes the call even harder. I think you would get more experience with indigent care at UCSF, though Baltimore certainly has it's share of underserved folk.
Essentially, I think that if you felt like you would be happier at one or the other, you would be safe to pick that one... coming from either place will put you in good stead. However, as you said yourself, Hopkins has the edge for cards -- and if you would truly be equally happy at either, you should pick Hopkins. Honestly, I think they are sort of the same in terms of program and what they offer, with Hopkins being more "east coast" and UCSF more "west coast". But I go based on gestalt for the most part...
 
Hopkins churns out cardiologists like no ones business
 
I will say that as a resident at one with many friends at the other, the two programs are VERY different. You can probably get to the same place in the fellowship match/training at the end of your residency, you just have to figure out which way suits you best. I don't think that there is a "best" or "right" way to run a residency but if I were you I would think about were you will fit in and how you want the next three years of your life to play out.
 
location/personal preference aside, can we discuss if one is better than another (cards bound). Hopkins cardiology is clearly superior. Obviously, medicine at both very similar in reputation/caliber/training. But, looking at the fine points, totally objectively, does one have an edge above the other? Thanks.

The flow of residents is generally from east coast (MGH, Hopkins) to west coast (UCSF). If you ask the UCSF cardiology fellows who trained at MGH/Hopkins (and to a lesser extent BWH) what brought them to UCSF, most of them will describe factors like "family" and "San Francisco" but few will admit to "the program" or "the quality of the residents".

Being on call as a fellow at Moffitt is described as worse than intern call at Hopkins/MGH, largely because the fellows do not have the power to block consults from the medicine residents who mindlessly auto-consult to "rule out cardiogenic shock" and the anesthesia/surgery residents who mindlessly auto-consult for "pre-op eval". The fellows aren't really permitted to chastise the interns and residents to think for themselves because the chair is too concerned about generating consult revenue and being in the good graces of anesthesia and surgery that you will get called into his office and get a good talking to for your "bad attitude" if the interns and residents speak up about their hurt feelings.

-AT.
 
I am going to have to call BS on your statement of medicine residents who mindlessly auto-consult to "rule out cardiogenic shock." I have never once been on a team that has done anything like this nor have I seen it done. Also the pre-op clearance consults generally go to the med. consult service and not cardiology I believe. I am not saying that UCSF cards is without flaws or that the UCSF medicine residents are perfect but your post seems to imply a level of gross incompetence that I don't believe exists within the medicine program. Are you a cards fellow at UCSF? from your posts it seems that you are a psychiatry resident?
 
The flow of residents is generally from east coast (MGH, Hopkins) to west coast (UCSF). If you ask the UCSF cardiology fellows who trained at MGH/Hopkins (and to a lesser extent BWH) what brought them to UCSF, most of them will describe factors like "family" and "San Francisco" but few will admit to "the program" or "the quality of the residents".

Being on call as a fellow at Moffitt is described as worse than intern call at Hopkins/MGH, largely because the fellows do not have the power to block consults from the medicine residents who mindlessly auto-consult to "rule out cardiogenic shock" and the anesthesia/surgery residents who mindlessly auto-consult for "pre-op eval". The fellows aren't really permitted to chastise the interns and residents to think for themselves because the chair is too concerned about generating consult revenue and being in the good graces of anesthesia and surgery that you will get called into his office and get a good talking to for your "bad attitude" if the interns and residents speak up about their hurt feelings.

-AT.


It's really sad that there is a fellow as bitter as the above poster. As a resident at UCSF I can say that it is quite rare to find such an attitude among housestaff and fellows. UCSF breeds a truly a collegeal environment, despite the rigorous training. The cards fellows generally are helpful, and for the most part they are only abused on their consult service (one of their most brutal months) by surgery. Medicine rarely ever consults cards except for procedures or weekend echos. When we do consult for other stuff, it's usually our attng's call, not ours. Not to be too cocky, but we can handle our own. As for the inpatient cardiology servcies, the fellows are really only back-up on the CCU patients. The residents run the service and the fellows do procedures. We are the one's in the trenches making minute to minute decisions.

As for the "east to west" bs comment, last year our residents matched quite well on the east coast. 11/11 matching: Off the top of my head: MGH x2, columbia, duke, michigan, cleveland clinic, followed by UCSF, UCLA, Cedars-Sinai, harbor-ucla, and utah on the west coast. I think location dominates the cards matching process over all else, as most of these people were going back to their home towns and uniformily got their 1st choice from the get-go. Among applicants this year, everyone is getting ALL of their interviews, east and west. It's true that UCSF cardiology has a ton of people from boston, but it has more to do w/ the UCSF residents choosing to leave, than our program having a bias towards the east coast.

Anyway, Dr. "AT", if you are a cards fellow here, it's a bummer your experience has been so sad, cause most of the fellows are pretty cool people and seem quite content. Maybe there's a reason Crawford has been scolding you?
 
I'm not going to argue with anyone's personal experience, because clearly most people like to think of themselves as an exception to the rule.

It might be an instructive experience, however, to obtain direct feedback from the cardiology fellows. Next time you find yourself in the checkout line next to a cardiology fellow in the Moffitt Cafe, ask him or her whether cardiology gets too many consults from medicine for "rule out cardiogenic shock" echos on septic, 10 liters up, mechanically ventilated ICU patients with low voltage EKGs.

Pre-ops are supposed to go to med consult, but surgery doesn't even bother calling medicine for anything with a whiff of cardiac risk. They just call cardiology.

-AT.
 
I'm not going to argue with anyone's personal experience, because clearly most people like to think of themselves as an exception to the rule.

It might be an instructive experience, however, to obtain direct feedback from the cardiology fellows. Next time you find yourself in the checkout line next to a cardiology fellow in the Moffitt Cafe, ask him or her whether cardiology gets too many consults from medicine for "rule out cardiogenic shock" echos on septic, 10 liters up, mechanically ventilated ICU patients with low voltage EKGs.

Pre-ops are supposed to go to med consult, but surgery doesn't even bother calling medicine for anything with a whiff of cardiac risk. They just call cardiology.

-AT.

Regarding the above hypotensive patient tanked up on fluids with low voltage ECGs, I think the astute intensivist would call for a STAT echo to "rule out tamponade". That would guarantee urgent service for a potentially intervenable etiology. This would be a reasonable ECHO request.
 
I'm not going to argue with anyone's personal experience, because clearly most people like to think of themselves as an exception to the rule.

It might be an instructive experience, however, to obtain direct feedback from the cardiology fellows. Next time you find yourself in the checkout line next to a cardiology fellow in the Moffitt Cafe, ask him or her whether cardiology gets too many consults from medicine for "rule out cardiogenic shock" echos on septic, 10 liters up, mechanically ventilated ICU patients with low voltage EKGs.

Pre-ops are supposed to go to med consult, but surgery doesn't even bother calling medicine for anything with a whiff of cardiac risk. They just call cardiology.

-AT.

I still don't understand the point of AT's posts. The OP is clearly asking about UCSF vs JHU residency programs and all of AT's comments seem focused on the UCSF cards fellowship. Whatsmore one of his major complaints seems to be 'the fellows can't yell at the residents for consulting them' which really doesn't sound like a negative from the resident's perspective. Finally, from the way his posts are worded I get the sense that he is not actually at UCSF (correct me if I'm wrong) and I'll trust the personal experience of current residents over hearsay. UCSF and JHU are clearly both elite IM programs and I find it funny that every time a thread like this gets started someone has to come along and try to convince everyone that despite everything you've heard and all conventional wisdom, one of the top IM programs is secretly a horrible place where terrible annoying things happen to everyone all the time...

With regards to the OP, I interviewed at both and as I said the impression I got was that they were both elite programs and I think you'd be hard pressed to say that one was objectively 'better' than the other. That is to say, I don't think there was anything with regards to quality of housestaff/faculty, quality of teaching, research, fellowship placement etc etc where everyone would agree that one program has an objective advantage. That said, the two programs were very different, and while there is no way to generalize which one is better, because of these differences I think for each individual there is a clear better fit. San Francisco and Baltimore are two very different places, each with their own strengths and weaknesses that don't overlap a lot, so which is better for you? UCSF is a 3 hospital system where you get a great diversity of experience but are frequently changing sites, whereas JHU you work in only one hospital but have a close-knit ward team. And with regards to style and 'personality' JHU is a very traditional, old school type of program whereas UCSF, while plenty rigorous, is fairly non-traditional with regards to its style and atmosphere.

So where do you fit? While I thought both were fantastic I find it hard to imagine someone who fits in great at both places...
 
Sorry, I didn't intend on creating this hateful bash re: one program or another. I truly wanted some feedback outside of what we, as applicants already know. Thank you all for providing that insight.
 
looking at A.T.'s posts, it's clear s/he is a psych resident. "I interviewed for psych and med/psych -- and ultimately chose to go psych-only"

how can a psych resident advise on what being a cardiology fellow is like at UCSF? or better yet, why would s/he go off on a rant about medicine overconsulting cardiology when it forms no part of his/her work? (nor is it instructive for the original poster who asked for comparison of UCSF and Hopkins IM programs).

maybe A.T has a friend or a partner in cardiology fellowship, but hearing them complain about their days isn't exactly a fair assessment of a program.

it's really neither appropriate nor helpful for someone who isn't a UCSF medicine resident or cardiology fellow to be advising others about (and criticizing) those two programs.
 
i believe it's inappropriate to say a post is inappropriate when it's a person's opinion. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. i don't care if atai is/is not a medicine or psych resident. he has an opinion and should feel free to post.


it's really neither appropriate nor helpful for someone who isn't a UCSF medicine resident or cardiology fellow to be advising others about (and criticizing) those two programs.
 
i believe it's inappropriate to say a post is inappropriate when it's a person's opinion. everyone is entitled to their own opinion. i don't care if atai is/is not a medicine or psych resident. he has an opinion and should feel free to post.

Perhaps, but I think Koch's beef is that AT seems to be misrepresenting him/herself as someone with inside information about one of these programs when they, in fact, have no first hand experience. Again, I'm only speculating because its never been clear to me reading these posts exactly what AT is basing his/her statements on, but reading between the lines I think AT knows one of the cards fellows? hard to say...

At any rate, I do agree that everyone is entitled to their opinion, but I also think it is sometimes appropriate to disclose on what information one is basing their opinion.
 
Bump... interested in tangible contemporary comparison. Both are fantastic, and I would be ecstatic at matching at either. Still, we do have to ultimately make a preferrential list for NRMP. Any thoughts?
 
san francisco is way nicer than baltimore.

yeah, that's all i've got.
 
Agreed, but I'm hoping to generate a richer discussion on the programs themselves. Are any present applicants in a similar dilemma? How have veterans made this decision in the past?
 
Bump... interested in tangible contemporary comparison. Both are fantastic, and I would be ecstatic at matching at either. Still, we do have to ultimately make a preferrential list for NRMP. Any thoughts?
I heard both of these places are terrible places to train at. Residents are overworked and underpaid (people working at McDonalds make more money than them). So, I would not rank either of them. Ranking them #1 and #2 is just a huge mistake. In all seriousness, post your questions in the help me rank mega thread.
 
Bump... interested in tangible contemporary comparison. Both are fantastic, and I would be ecstatic at matching at either. Still, we do have to ultimately make a preferrential list for NRMP. Any thoughts?
What do you mean by "tangible comparison"?

I don't think there's ever going to be any consensus about which program is objectively "better" since, as you recognize, both are fantastic and offer excellent training that will open all doors (or at least, close none) for fellowship. There are, however, significant differences re: hospital systems (3 hospital system at UCSF), location (SF > Baltimore, though with the tough cost of living that comes with living in SF), and general feel (though I suppose this is an intangible, and highly variable depending on who you meet during the interview day).
 
What do you mean by "tangible comparison"?

I don't think there's ever going to be any consensus about which program is objectively "better" since, as you recognize, both are fantastic and offer excellent training that will open all doors (or at least, close none) for fellowship. There are, however, significant differences re: hospital systems (3 hospital system at UCSF), location (SF > Baltimore, though with the tough cost of living that comes with living in SF), and general feel (though I suppose this is an intangible, and highly variable depending on who you meet during the interview day).
Given that at most, anyone responding could have done residency at one of the two programs (and likely did it at neither), getting a "tangible comparison" is pretty much impossible.
 
You find out the next day that they make you put that nugget in your ass and hold it there for your whole inter year. You'd be surprised how hard it is to run to a code on your knees with a gob of gold the size of a softball in your ass.


LMAO...you made my bump totally worth while.
 
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