Hospital vaccine mandate?

[1DeletedAccount]

Advertisement - Members don't see this ad

Just to be clear - you're saying that the evidence has become more compelling, right?

The "natural course" of this disease continues to cause death and ICU congestion in all of our hospitals. In this time I have admitted ZERO patients to the hospital for adverse vaccine reactions. The vaccine now has millions more cases and several more months worth of data and still appears very, very effective at preventing severe disease.

I agree - the data has become more compelling.

I think we agree. The data, initially unknown, is now more compelling. I have admitted a patient to the hospital that died immediately post vaccination, from vaccination. Reported to higher levels and confirmed likely secondary to immunization. It’s very rare. It’s not zero. We equally can’t be blinded by our anecdotes.

 

[ocopa]

This is taking all comers from the VAERS database which has not been validated for accuracy. Anyone can report a potential VAERS complication.

Peer review of a VAERS dumpster dive

A new preprint study on COVID vaccine myocarditis dives into the VAERS dumpster with predictable and embarrassing results.

sciencebasedmedicine.org

Read this before making up your mind.

The article you quote is one of the rare ones that allow comments. As usual, the comments are a great way to gauge the truthfulness and understand the article's bias. This one shows the author's obvious bias;

How on earth did you not know that one of your co-authors was associated with Rational Ground, which has a definite ax to grind when it comes to COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccines, being dedicated to opposing most COVID-19 public health mitigation measures as unnecessary, and also made up of people with zero expertise relevant to COVID-19, epidemiology, VAERS, you know, the sort of knowledge needed for the sort of study you did? To me, that admission is just incredible, in that it strains credulity. At the very least, it suggests a serious lack of due diligence about whom you choose as a co-author. No, you can't say there was no "relationship whatsoever to Rational Ground." You just can't! One of your co-authors is a founder of Rational Ground, and THAT in and of itself is a relationship, whether you like it or not.- D.G.

You are right the VAERS database has not been validated for accuracy. Anyone can report a potential VAERS complication. We shouldn't just ignore the 14,506 covid vaccine deaths, 58,440 covid vaccine hospitalizations, or 675,591 covid vaccine adverse event reports, just because somebody made a report that has errors or is otherwise less than perfect. These reports should be investigated, not ignored. This is more important in light of the Lazarus Report that estimated that VAERS only captures 1% of vaccine injuries.

Home Page - OpenVAERS

openvaers.com

 

[Rendar5]

The article you quote is one of the rare ones that allow comments. As usual, the comments are a great way to gauge the truthfulness and understand the article's bias. This one shows the author's obvious bias;

How on earth did you not know that one of your co-authors was associated with Rational Ground, which has a definite ax to grind when it comes to COVID-19 and COVID-19 vaccines, being dedicated to opposing most COVID-19 public health mitigation measures as unnecessary, and also made up of people with zero expertise relevant to COVID-19, epidemiology, VAERS, you know, the sort of knowledge needed for the sort of study you did? To me, that admission is just incredible, in that it strains credulity. At the very least, it suggests a serious lack of due diligence about whom you choose as a co-author. No, you can't say there was no "relationship whatsoever to Rational Ground." You just can't! One of your co-authors is a founder of Rational Ground, and THAT in and of itself is a relationship, whether you like it or not.- D.G.

You are right the VAERS database has not been validated for accuracy. Anyone can report a potential VAERS complication. We shouldn't just ignore the 14,506 covid vaccine deaths, 58,440 covid vaccine hospitalizations, or 675,591 covid vaccine adverse event reports, just because somebody made a report that has errors or is otherwise less than perfect. These reports should be investigated, not ignored. This is more important in light of the Lazarus Report that estimated that VAERS only captures 1% of vaccine injuries.

Troll gonna troll

 

[thegenius]

You think the government would recommend a vaccine that kills 15,000 people a year?

That's 15,000 / 180,000,000 = 0.00833% (180M are the number of people vaccinated).

The Pfizer trial enrolled 43,000 patients for the vaccination arm. If 0.00833% of them died, that would have been 3.6 people. Nobody died in the Pfizer trial.

 

[thegenius]

This is from the CDC:

• Reports of death after COVID-19 vaccination are rare. More than 375 million doses of COVID-19 vaccines were administered in the United States from December 14, 2020, through September 7, 2021. During this time, VAERS received 7,439 reports of death (0.0020%) among people who received a COVID-19 vaccine. FDA requires healthcare providers to report any death after COVID-19 vaccination to VAERS, even if it’s unclear whether the vaccine was the cause. Reports of adverse events to VAERS following vaccination, including deaths, do not necessarily mean that a vaccine caused a health problem. A review of available clinical information, including death certificates, autopsy, and medical records, has not established a causal link to COVID-19 vaccines. However, recent reports indicate a plausible causal relationship between the J&J/Janssen COVID-19 Vaccine and TTS, a rare and serious adverse event—blood clots with low platelets—which has caused deaths pdf icon[1.4 MB, 40 pages].

 

[WilcoWorld]

I think we agree. The data, initially unknown, is now more compelling. I have admitted a patient to the hospital that died immediately post vaccination, from vaccination. Reported to higher levels and confirmed likely secondary to immunization. It’s very rare. It’s not zero. We equally can’t be blinded by our anecdotes.

How did your patient die?

 

[thegenius]

How did your patient die?

I would like to know too.

Things happen to Mount Asclepius that doesn't happen to anyone else.

 

[Arcan57]

How did your patient die?

GSW to the head from a militant anti-vaxxer?

 

[1DeletedAccount]

How did your patient die?

I thought it was ITP, but I guess it’s different and termed TTS.

 

[Birdstrike]

I think we agree. The data, initially unknown, is now more compelling. I have admitted a patient to the hospital that died immediately post vaccination, from vaccination. Reported to higher levels and confirmed likely secondary to immunization. It’s very rare. It’s not zero. We equally can’t be blinded by our anecdotes.

People can die from anaphylaxis or other idiosyncratic reactions to any medication. We've known this for, what, 150 years now? It's happened with every antibiotic we prescribe; the same antibiotics the anti-vaxxers come in begging to get for their viruses. Lol.

How many anti-vaxxers has read the package insert on HQC and ivermectin and can regurgitate the raw numbers of deaths from anaphylaxis to those meds?

Their mobocracy makes a goat rodeo seem reasoned.

 

[Birdstrike]

I thought it was ITP, but I guess it’s different and termed TTS.

Daily reminder: Thrombosis is 10X more common if you get COVID, than from the COVID vaccines.

 

[RustedFox]

People can die from anaphylaxis or other idiosyncratic reactions to any medication. We've known this for, what, 150 years now? It's happened with every antibiotic we prescribe; the same antibiotics the anti-vaxxers come in begging to get for their viruses. Lol.

How many anti-vaxxers has read the package insert on HQC and ivermectin and can regurgitate the raw numbers of deaths from anaphylaxis to those meds?

Their mobocracy makes a goat rodeo seem reasoned.

Great term.
I've been saying this for awhile now. The vast majority of the muggles out there no longer care what we, the experts in medicine have to say about their condition. They know what they need (ahem, want) and because of mob rule, have been determined to be "correct". Add on top of that the fact that administration just wants "satisfied customers" and doesn't give a damn about what the right thing is to do, medically - and you've got an air fryer for physician burnout.

Society is beyond hope at this point. They really, really are.

 

[southerndoc]

The only immediate death after vaccine I've seen was a lady who got it in the morning, died later that afternoon. Followed-up with the ME. She died from a massive PE. She was 2 months post ortho surgery (hip if I remember correctly). Wasn't vaccine related.

A lot of the adverse reactions reported to VAERS (including deaths) aren't related to the vaccine, but because people think they need to be hypervigilant about reporting stuff, they report it anyway. Reports do not establish causation.

 

[1DeletedAccount]

The only immediate death after vaccine I've seen was a lady who got it in the morning, died later that afternoon. Followed-up with the ME. She died from a massive PE. She was 2 months post ortho surgery (hip if I remember correctly). Wasn't vaccine related.

A lot of the adverse reactions reported to VAERS (including deaths) aren't related to the vaccine, but because people think they need to be hypervigilant about reporting stuff, they report it anyway. Reports do not establish causation.

Agree. At the same time though, causality isn’t completely disproven. Why a full 2 months out from surgery? Might have just been enough to tip the inflammatory state over the edge. Patterns are the important determining factor, but the data collection is difficult. A bunch of random reports filled with background noise to sort through.

 

[Birdstrike]

Agree. At the same time though, causality isn’t completely disproven. Why a full 2 months out from surgery? Might have just been enough to tip the inflammatory state over the edge. Patterns are the important determining factor, but the data collection is difficult. A bunch of random reports filled with background noise to sort through.

Dude. I get what you're saying. But there's got to be some pushback to these people that think any bad event within 2 months of a vaccine is from the vaccine. People had post-surgical PEs before these vaccines, my friend. And yes, some people don't move for months after surgery, so a PE 2 months after absolutely could easily be from surgery and immobility, alone. Have you met Americans?

I first thought they just weren't smart enough to understand a temporal association doesn't equal causation. Now, I think they're just plain dishonest and pushing an agenda.

 

[1DeletedAccount]

Dude. I get what you're saying. But there's got to be some pushback to these people that think any bad event within 2 months of a vaccine is from the vaccine. People had post-surgical PEs before these vaccines, my friend. And yes, some people don't move for months after surgery, so a PE 2 months after absolutely could easily be from surgery and immobility, alone. Have you met Americans?

I first thought they just weren't smart enough to understand a temporal association doesn't equal causation. Now, I think they're just plain dishonest and pushing an agenda.

I agree. Not every bad thing that happens to someone post immunization is related or causal. Some amount of pushback is appropriate. I do think we often don’t know what we don’t know though. Unfortunately in the age of social media, politicized medicine seems the new normal. This makes it hard not only for the general public, but also for physicians.

 

[Arcan57]

I agree. Not every bad thing that happens to someone post immunization is related or causal. Some amount of pushback is appropriate. I do think we often don’t know what we don’t know though. Unfortunately in the age of social media, politicized medicine seems the knew normal. This makes it hard not only for the general public, but also for physicians.

There’s one faction trying to politicize medicine, the rest of us are trying to tell politics to stay in its lane. FWIW, I don’t think you get say that politicized medicine is the new normal if you’re part of the faction working to politicize it.

 

[Birdstrike]

Unfortunately in the age of social media, politicized medicine seems the knew normal

There’s one faction trying to politicize medicine, the rest of us are trying to tell politics to stay in its lane.

One of the things I love most about Medicine is that it's a pure science unaffected by politics, business, marketing, insurance payers, social, ethical, economic and other outside factors.


.





.





.




( 😆 )

 

[southerndoc]

Agree. At the same time though, causality isn’t completely disproven. Why a full 2 months out from surgery? Might have just been enough to tip the inflammatory state over the edge. Patterns are the important determining factor, but the data collection is difficult. A bunch of random reports filled with background noise to sort through.

She has been having unilateral calf pain for the week prior to her death and the week prior to her vaccination, so I 100% do not think this is related to the vaccine. Seems highly unlikely that she would die 6 hours after getting the vaccine from an acute PE triggered by pro-clotting factors of a vaccine that hasn't even had enough time for the mRNA to pump out spike proteins, doesn't it?

 

[Birdstrike]

She has been having unilateral calf pain for the week prior to her death and the week prior to her vaccination, so I 100% do not think this is related to the vaccine. Seems highly unlikely that she would die 6 hours after getting the vaccine from an acute PE triggered by pro-clotting factors of a vaccine that hasn't even had enough time for the mRNA to pump out spike proteins, doesn't it?

I know a lady that ate peanuts, then died 6 hours later.

 

[southerndoc]

I know a lady that ate peanuts, then died 6 hours later.

Choked on the peanut and crashed her car, but that wasn't what did it... the MVC was minor. When she got out of the car, she dropped the bag of peanuts and slipped. She hit her head while on the cardiology trifecta (Eliquis, Plavix, and Aspirin) and developed a head bleed. When she arrived and was surgically treated, the surgeon left a sponge in, she became septic, and passed after a tension pneumothorax from a failed subclavian line attempt. The peanut caused her death.

 

[1DeletedAccount]

The only immediate death after vaccine I've seen was a lady who got it in the morning, died later that afternoon. Followed-up with the ME. She died from a massive PE. She was 2 months post ortho surgery (hip if I remember correctly). Wasn't vaccine related.

She has been having unilateral calf pain for the week prior to her death and the week prior to her vaccination, so I 100% do not think this is related to the vaccine. Seems highly unlikely that she would die 6 hours after getting the vaccine from an acute PE triggered by pro-clotting factors of a vaccine that hasn't even had enough time for the mRNA to pump out spike proteins, doesn't it?

Fair enough. Agree sounds unrelated. Devil is in the details.

 

[1DeletedAccount]

There’s one faction trying to politicize medicine, the rest of us are trying to tell politics to stay in its lane. FWIW, I don’t think you get say that politicized medicine is the new normal if you’re part of the faction working to politicize it.

Medicine anymore is pretty much all business and politics. The cat is out of the bag and probably not going back. I’m not working to do anything other than FIRE and share my skepticism for medicine. If you want to believe in its purity, I think you are potentially one day going to wake up disappointed just like I did.

 

[Birdstrike]

These issues all affect Medicine, including Emergency Medicine, one way or the other via the dreaded P-word, which I'm banned from saying:


Price transparency

Reimbursement ('Care, 'Caid, HHS)

Balance Billing

EMTALA

HIPAA

STARK

ACA

Healthcare Coverage

Rx Drug Price Controls

Scope of Practice (PAs, NPs, CRNAs)

Telemedicine/EHRs (government regulated)

Supply Chain Issues (PPE from China, Tariffs)

Mental Health/Homeless Care

 

[southerndoc]

These issues all affect Medicine, including Emergency Medicine, one way or the other via the dreaded P-word, which I'm banned from saying:


Price transparency

Reimbursement ('Care, 'Caid, HHS)

Balance Billing

EMTALA

HIPAA

STARK

ACA

Healthcare Coverage

Rx Drug Price Controls

Scope of Practice (PAs, NPs, CRNAs)

Telemedicine/EHRs (government regulated)

Supply Chain Issues (PPE from China, Tariffs)

Mental Health/Homeless Care

You're not banned from discussing politics related to those issues. Those directly affect emergency medicine. The vaccine issue is not directly related (yes, those not vaccinated affect EM by clogging the system, but the reasons why they're not vaccinating is not directly relevant to EM).

I don't recall issuing a warning for discussions about the topics you've listed.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Have you all seen this? It’s data from Vaccine Safety Link, this is a group of very large health systems very aggressively monitoring vaccine safety. This is a reassuring report.

Surveillance for Adverse Events After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination

This study reports an interim analysis of safety surveillance data of 23 serious outcomes following vaccination with 1 of the mRNA COVID-19 vaccines based on comprehensive health records from a large US population.

jamanetwork.com

 

[Birdstrike]

You're not banned from discussing politics related to those issues. Those directly affect emergency medicine. The vaccine issue is not directly related (yes, those not vaccinated affect EM by clogging the system, but the reasons why they're not vaccinating is not directly relevant to EM).

I don't recall issuing a warning for discussions about the topics you've listed.

This wasn't directed at you, actually. I was jabbing at @Arcan57 (but all in good fun) for saying he's trying to keep Medicine from "being politicized."

Imagine, in Star Wars 23, Arcan plays Luke Skywalker and takes on a valiant battle to keep the Good Planet of Tatooine (Emergency Medicine) from being blown up by the forces of Evil, but unbeknownst to him, it's already been blown up by Darth Vader and his crew of politicians and businessmen, way back in Star Wars episode 16.

Oh...forget it.

 

[Arcan57]

This wasn't directed at you, actually. I was jabbing at @Arcan57 (but all in good fun) for saying he's trying to keep Medicine from "being politicized."

Imagine, in Star Wars 23, Arcan plays Luke Skywalker and takes on a valiant battle to keep the Good Planet of Tatooine (Emergency Medicine) from being blown up by the forces of Evil, but unbeknownst to him, it's already been blown up by Darth Vader and his crew of politicians and businessmen, way back in Star Wars episode 16.

Oh...forget it.

I kinda view it as the desperate pre-Luke rebel alliance waging a fighting retreat as planet after planet falls.

 

[Birdstrike]

I kinda view it as the desperate pre-Luke rebel alliance waging a fighting retreat as planet after planet falls.

That's good actually. Very good. Unfortunately we know the ending. Although, we can hope we're somehow wrong and the good guys win in the end 🙏🏻.

 

[Birdstrike]

I didn't watch the FDA meeting yesterday, but was it a win for @Old_Mil ?

I've only seen a couple news reports on it. Can somebody watch all 8 hours (lol) and summarize it for us?


Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee – 9/17/2021

 

[GeneralVeers]

Amazing that a group of doctors reviewed the evidence and decided to hold off for thr time being. Maybe reason will prevail eventually.

Shame that the administration already ordered millions of booster doses from Pfizer

 

[Birdstrike]

I did see a clip from an ER doc, Dr. Joseph Fraiman. I thought he spoke pretty well. He talked about needing bigger studies to better sort out side effect risk is patients at very low risk from COVID. He apparently has a lot of nurses in his department who won't get the vaccine.

 

[Birdstrike]

Amazing that a group of doctors reviewed the evidence and decided to hold off for thr time being. Maybe reason will prevail eventually.

Shame that the administration already ordered millions of booster doses from Pfizer

I've heard that this committee vote isn't binding, though. I wonder if the administration will overrule it and recommend the booster-for-all, anyways. They seemed pretty decided on it a month ago, when they spoke out on it. We shall see.

Either way, I already got mine. Lol.

 

[bravotwozero]

I've heard that this committee vote isn't binding, though. I wonder if the administration will overrule it and recommend the booster-for-all, anyways. They seemed pretty decided on it a month ago, when they spoke out on it. We shall see.

Either way, I already got mine. Lol.

If I’m not mistaken, two highly regarded doctors in the FDA resigned over that issue recently.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

Amazing that a group of doctors reviewed the evidence and decided to hold off for thr time being. Maybe reason will prevail eventually.

Shame that the administration already ordered millions of booster doses from Pfizer

Its not a huge shock. Basically "high risk" people get a booster, everyone else let's see what happens when we get more data. Given how conservative the FDA is this seems par for the course.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Its not a huge shock. Basically "high risk" people get a booster, everyone else let's see what happens when we get more data. Given how conservative the FDA is this seems par for the course.

That is reasonable and exactly what we should be doing. This "vaccines for all" policy is nonsense. We should recommend it for high risk individuals and let everyone else decide their own risk. The fact that I can get a non-sensical "religious exemption" at work, but I can't get an exemption based on SCIENCE for past infection is insane.

 

[MechEDoc]

That is reasonable and exactly what we should be doing. This "vaccines for all" policy is nonsense. We should recommend it for high risk individuals and let everyone else decide their own risk. The fact that I can get a non-sensical "religious exemption" at work, but I can't get an exemption based on SCIENCE for past infection is insane.

I agree regarding the conflict of prior infection vs vaccine. But would you be ok with firing everyone who is unvaccinated and doesn't have a verifiable level of immunity from prior infection?

Even though the vaccine doesn't provide full sterilizing immunity, it appears to offer a large degree of sterilizing immunity. It's not unreasonable for the public to demand that health care workers will not give them a highly communicable and potentially lethal disease. It's clear by now that many high risk individuals have a poor vaccine response and remain vulnerable to COVID (recently admitted a double vaccinated patient who I expect will die).

As a thought experiment, if it turns out that yearly boosters of a mRNA COVID-19 vaccine will maintain an immune response such that there is > 90% probability of sterilizing immunity, would it be reasonable to state that no reasonable accommodation could be made for unvaccinated (or low titer prior infected) "front line" health care workers due to their risk of infecting high(er) risk patients. This would allow for legally denying work to these individuals (religious exemption or not). I'm kind of down with that. Typhoid Mary got locked up and TB patients get tracked and controlled. I'd kind of like it if weaker patients weren't killed off by death cult staff members who have poor grasp on reality and risk management.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

That is reasonable and exactly what we should be doing. This "vaccines for all" policy is nonsense. We should recommend it for high risk individuals and let everyone else decide their own risk. The fact that I can get a non-sensical "religious exemption" at work, but I can't get an exemption based on SCIENCE for past infection is insane.

I would like the corollary that people who got Pfizer and are 6M+ out should be able to get a booster IF they want one. No requirement, but an option.

 

[RustedFox]

That is reasonable and exactly what we should be doing. This "vaccines for all" policy is nonsense. We should recommend it for high risk individuals and let everyone else decide their own risk. The fact that I can get a non-sensical "religious exemption" at work, but I can't get an exemption based on SCIENCE for past infection is insane.

 

[GeneralVeers]

I agree regarding the conflict of prior infection vs vaccine. But would you be ok with firing everyone who is unvaccinated and doesn't have a verifiable level of immunity from prior infection?

No....I'm against all vaccine mandates period. That being said the "vaccinate everybody" is beyond ridiculous. You would probably get more buy-in to the mandates if you excluded people with prior infection or who have demonstrated immunity.

Even though the vaccine doesn't provide full sterilizing immunity, it appears to offer a large degree of sterilizing immunity. It's not unreasonable for the public to demand that health care workers will not give them a highly communicable and potentially lethal disease. It's clear by now that many high risk individuals have a poor vaccine response and remain vulnerable to COVID (recently admitted a double vaccinated patient who I expect will die).

What is a "large degree"? I'm not arguing about decrease in hospitalization and mortality. What is the reduction in transmission of the delta variant if you get the vaccine? I'm asking because I don't know.

As a thought experiment, if it turns out that yearly boosters of a mRNA COVID-19 vaccine will maintain an immune response such that there is > 90% probability of sterilizing immunity, would it be reasonable to state that no reasonable accommodation could be made for unvaccinated (or low titer prior infected) "front line" health care workers due to their risk of infecting high(er) risk patients. This would allow for legally denying work to these individuals (religious exemption or not). I'm kind of down with that. Typhoid Mary got locked up and TB patients get tracked and controlled. I'd kind of like it if weaker patients weren't killed off by death cult staff members who have poor grasp on reality and risk management.

As a thought experiment it fails.....simply because we haven't done this with other respiratory viruses like the flu. The flu vaccine in many hospitals has been suggested but never mandatory. I do understand some facilities have mandated them, but in the 10+ hospital systems I've worked, I never encountered one. Most had the policy of "Get vaccinated or wear a mask". Totally reasonable, and a policy we should apply to COVID.

 

[VA Hopeful Dr]

What is a "large degree"? I'm not arguing about decrease in hospitalization and mortality. What is the reduction in transmission of the delta variant if you get the vaccine? I'm asking because I don't know.

As a thought experiment it fails.....simply because we haven't done this with other respiratory viruses like the flu. The flu vaccine in many hospitals has been suggested but never mandatory. I do understand some facilities have mandated them, but in the 10+ hospital systems I've worked, I never encountered one. Most had the policy of "Get vaccinated or wear a mask". Totally reasonable, and a policy we should apply to COVID.

Vaccination seems to reduce the time you are infectious with delta. Same nasal carriage but fewer days with active virus.

Honestly I wish more hospitals would mandate flu vaccines. In 2019 my vaccinated self caught flu from the unvaccinated staff. I was out for 3 days (never felt that bad in truth). The staff who weren't vaccinated (the majority) were out for about a week each. Luckily it was over Christmas and lots of doctors were taking time off anyway so we could shift people around to make it work but that could have really screwed things up had all the doctors been there.

 

[wholeheartedly]

That is reasonable and exactly what we should be doing. This "vaccines for all" policy is nonsense. We should recommend it for high risk individuals and let everyone else decide their own risk. The fact that I can get a non-sensical "religious exemption" at work, but I can't get an exemption based on SCIENCE for past infection is insane.

There is currently no science-based way say that you have sufficient immunity based on past infection at this time. For right now our antibody tests are able to tell you whether or not you’ve been previously infected NOT whether or not that previous infection gave you adequate immunity. We don’t have cutoffs established for any of the various antibody types above which you’re considered immune. Your best data would come from doing a profile of multiple antibody types, but that’s ridiculous from a cost and resource standpoint. If you’re above a certain level we don’t know how long you’re immune. Most of the antibody tests being done for studies are research use only and not widely available and are really costly to do. They aren’t approved for clinical use.

The benefit of vaccination is that everyone gets a standardized dose that was shown in trial participants to generate a robust immune response in most people with exceptions for immunocompromised etc. We know it’s enough to provide a good level of protection. We know it reduces time infectious therefore decreases transmission. Natural infection is going to generate a much more varied level of response and duration of response because exposure doses will be different, timing might be uncertain etc.

Another vaccination benefit is that when new strains show up we’ll have an idea about how vaccinated people respond because they’ll have had the same exposure with that respective vaccine type. We won’t know how naturally infected people will respond and it might be worse for some if the were previously infected with strain A vs better for someone whose previous infection was strain B. It’ll all be mixed and uncertain where as vaccinated we’ll be able to go hey, Moderna is doing well with this strain no need to do anything or Moderna sucks for this strain give the updated booster.

If we get to the point we can do titers on people to see if they have verifiable immunity from natural infection, I’m all for it. We could use that to guide boosters, too. Given the complexities of the immune system, all the different antibody types and targets, memory cells, etc, and the messy mix of laboratory and epidemiological data required to figure this out, I think it’ll be a miracle if we have that anytime soon.

From the people running and developing the tests:

Antibody Tests Should Not Be Your Go-To For Checking COVID Immunity

Worries about waning immunity and talk of COVID booster shots has some Americans checking their antibody levels to see if they're protected. But scientists warn blood tests don't tell the full story.

www.npr.org

 

[MechEDoc]

What is a "large degree"? I'm not arguing about decrease in hospitalization and mortality. What is the reduction in transmission of the delta variant if you get the vaccine? I'm asking because I don't know.

I don't think it is known, but I think that the data coming out of Israel will shed some light on that. They're pursuing a much more aggressive vaccination strategy and have good data collection. However, it's my understanding that they are pursuing immunity levels that will significantly decrease asymptomatic infections (e.g. effective sterilizing immunity).

 

[Arcan57]

As a thought experiment it fails.....simply because we haven't done this with other respiratory viruses like the flu. The flu vaccine in many hospitals has been suggested but never mandatory. I do understand some facilities have mandated them, but in the 10+ hospital systems I've worked, I never encountered one. Most had the policy of "Get vaccinated or wear a mask". Totally reasonable, and a policy we should apply to COVID.

Somewhere out there, I'm sure there's an anti-vax HCW that is absolutely meticulous with their mask hygiene. What I've observed is that the people that don't get vaxxed mostly do so because they don't take the illness seriously, and thus have absolutely atrocious masking habits. Yeah, I'm talking about you Colleen. With your leaning over me to look at the tracking board while you literally chew on your d%$# nose exposing mask like you're part bovine.

 

[Apollyon]

The flu vaccine in many hospitals has been suggested but never mandatory. I do understand some facilities have mandated them, but in the 10+ hospital systems I've worked, I never encountered one.

The "fallacy of anecdote" - "I've never seen it, therefore, it does not exist".

Your statement does not agree - "...has been suggested but never mandatory. I do understand some facilities have mandated them..." Which is it?

For the record, UPMC mandates it, done and done. No shot, no job. No grey area.

 

[wholeheartedly]

The "fallacy of anecdote" - "I've never seen it, therefore, it does not exist".

Your statement does not agree - "...has been suggested but never mandatory. I do understand some facilities have mandated them..." Which is it?

For the record, UPMC mandates it, done and done. No shot, no job. No grey area.

And some states actually mandate that healthcare workers either have it or mask between x and y date and it’s a CMS requirement that most hospitals track and report influenza data to NHSN.

 

[bravotwozero]

Methodist hospital system in Houston has been mandating the flu shot for at least a decade.

 

[GeneralVeers]

Methodist hospital system in Houston has been mandating the flu shot for at least a decade.

Thr biggest hospital system in my city has held off of requiring it because they realize the critical shortage of nurses and unstaffed beds would get worse. Another smaller system tried to mandate it and they are being fought by the powerful nursing union.

 

[wholeheartedly]

Thr biggest hospital system in my city has held off of requiring it because they realize the critical shortage of nurses and unstaffed beds would get worse. Another smaller system tried to mandate it and they are being fought by the powerful nursing union.

I get the fear but it doesn’t seem to play out that way.

Despite protests, 98% of Henry Ford Hospital workers get COVID vaccinations - Bridge Michigan

Vaccine mandates remain deeply divisive. But most workers ultimately got their shots and kept their jobs at Henry Ford.

www.bridgemi.com

Also, I thought the national nursing assoc was for mandates and a lot of the unions.

 

[Old_Mil]

I've heard that this committee vote isn't binding, though. I wonder if the administration will overrule it and recommend the booster-for-all, anyways.

That's where I think this is going. Even if larger studies show that boosters work about as well as repeatedly trying to start a cigarette lighter that's running out of butane, regular boosters to keep your vaccine passport valid is what the powers that be want, and will eventually mandate.

Methodist hospital system in Houston has been mandating the flu shot for at least a decade.

I suspect an unintended consequence of Covid vaccine mandates will be a reduced willingness to get the flu shot this fall. All those people who have signed up for exemptions from the Covid vaccine aren't going to turn around and invalidate their exemption by getting a flu shot.

Speaking of the flu shot, this is an interesting read:

Study: Prior-year vaccination cut flu vaccine effects in 2014-15

www.cidrap.umn.edu