Hospital vaccine mandate?

[Old_Mil]

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Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam​

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam

Background: Data on breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant infections are limited.<br><br>Methods: We studied breakthrough infections among healthcare workers of

papers.ssrn.com

"Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls."

 

[WilcoWorld]

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam​

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam

Background: Data on breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant infections are limited.<br><br>Methods: We studied breakthrough infections among healthcare workers of

papers.ssrn.com

"Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls."

This appears to show that the delta variant is more contagious than older strains. I suspect you posted it because you interpret it as favoring not getting vaccinated, but I don't see how this paper supports that.

 

[bravotwozero]

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam​

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam

Background: Data on breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant infections are limited.<br><br>Methods: We studied breakthrough infections among healthcare workers of

papers.ssrn.com

"Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls."

The paper doesn’t mention which covid vaccine was given to the vaccinated workers, and how far out they were from their immunization - two key variables.

With regards to the former, many countries in that Southeast Asia region received the Chinese sinovax, and I have no idea what kind of efficacy data is available for that, even against the alpha variant.

 

[Birdstrike]

Oh I 100% agree in both aspects. It's just funny if it really was *only* the elective surgery guys, as it is rumored to have been. But their point is still totally valid. And since cancer surgery is among those elective surgeries I'm very much in agreement this can be patient serving.

I agree.

It's terrible to have your cancer surgery delayed because dummies won't get a shot.

It also sucks to be laid off, which is essentially what an elective surgery shutdown is for some doctors, because dummies won't get a shot.

That being said, if critical beds are needed for people critically ill, then do it. But, "Dummies, get a shot!"

 

[aafisahar]

Am I correct in assuming unvaxxed?

Yep entire family, they had a care contract requiring masks in the hospital as part of their visiting expectations.

 

[Birdstrike]

Yep entire family, they had a care contract requiring masks in the hospital as part of their visiting expectations.

Florida lost 5 cops in the last few days to COVID. The latest, young, mother of a 2 year old baby.

 

[southerndoc]

Florida lost 5 cops in the last few days to COVID. The latest, young, mother of a 2 year old baby.

Sad. She doesn't look unhealthy or immunocompromised. I think the Delta variant may be mutating more. I don't have research to support this, but it seems like over the past few weeks, more healthy people are coming in with severe COVID. I know Delta+ is out there. Maybe it's starting to circulate around my area.

 

[rokshana]

Sad. She doesn't look unhealthy or immunocompromised. I think the Delta variant may be mutating more. I don't have research to support this, but it seems like over the past few weeks, more healthy people are coming in with severe COVID. I know Delta+ is out there. Maybe it's starting to circulate around my area.

well...she doesn't look stupid enough to go around unvaccinated, but there is that.

I know i should feel bad that she died, but my compassion is low and left for those that actually try to help themselves. I do feel bad that she made a decision that leaves her 2 year old without a mother,

 

[Birdstrike]

Sad. She doesn't look unhealthy or immunocompromised. I think the Delta variant may be mutating more. I don't have research to support this, but it seems like over the past few weeks, more healthy people are coming in with severe COVID. I know Delta+ is out there. Maybe it's starting to circulate around my area.

well...she doesn't look stupid enough to go around unvaccinated, but there is that.

I know i should feel bad that she died, but my compassion is low and left for those that actually try to help themselves. I do feel bad that she made a decision that leaves her 2 year old without a mother,

Where I work, almost everyone is vaccinated. There's a small handful of holdouts. It's mostly females in their 20's who feel they're low risk and have read speculation about the vaccine making them sterile, even there's no evidence for that. In fact, there's much evidence to the contrary. But they haven't read these. Because they know better. One of our other holdouts is Conspiracy Theory Guy, who literally believes every single conspiracy theory he's ever read, to the point of borderline psychosis (he does not come near patients, by the way).

"The COVID vaccine does not keep you from easily having healthy babies!"

1. American Society of Reproductive Medicine (ASRM), American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG) and the Society for Maternal-Fetal Medicine (SMFM) Issue Joint Statement: Medical Experts Continue to Assert that COVID Vaccines Do Not Impact Fertility. February 5, 2021. Available at: Page Not Found icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
2. American Academy of Pediatrics (AAP). About the COVID-19 Vaccine: Frequently Asked Questions. Available at: https://services.aap.org/en/pages/2...9-vaccine-frequently-asked-questions/external icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
3. American College of Obstetricians and Gynecologists (ACOG). COVID-19 Vaccination Considerations for Obstetric–Gynecologic Care. Page Not Found icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
4. American Society for Reproductive Medicine (ASRM) Patient Management and Clinical Recommendations During the Coronavirus (COVID-19) Pandemic: UPDATE No. 16 – Reproductive Facts Regarding COVID-19 Vaccination. Available at: Page Not Found icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
5. Joint Statement Regarding COVID-19 Vaccine in Men Desiring Fertility from the Society for Male Reproduction and Urology (SMRU) and the Society for the Study of Male Reproduction (SSMR). American Society for Reproductive Medicine. Available at: Page Not Found icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
6. Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee Meeting. FDA Briefing Document. Janssen Ad26.COV2.S Vaccine for the Prevention of COVID-19. February 26, 2021. Available at: https://www.fda.gov/media/146217/downloadexternal icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
7. Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee Meeting. FDA Briefing Document. Pfizer-BioNTech COVID-19 Vaccine. December 10, 2020. Available at: https://www.fda.gov/media/144245/downloadexternal icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
8. Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee Meeting. FDA Briefing Document. Moderna COVID-19 Vaccine. December 17, 2020. Available at: Vaccines and Related Biological Products Advisory Committee December 17, 2020 Meeting Briefing Document – FDAexternal icon. Accessed August 6, 2021.
9. Shimabukuro TT, Kim SY, Myers TR, et al. Preliminary Findings of mRNA Covid-19 Vaccine Safety in Pregnant Persons. N Engl J Med. 2021 Jun 17;384(24):2273–2282. doi: 10.1056/NEJMoa2104983.
10. Razzaghi H, Meghani M, Pingali C, et al. COVID-19 Vaccination Coverage Among Pregnant Women During Pregnancy — Eight Integrated Health Care Organizations, United States, December 14, 2020–May 8, 2021. MMWR Morb Mortal Wkly Rep 2021;70:895–899.
11. Morris RS. SARS-CoV-2 Spike Protein Seropositivity from Vaccination or Infection Does Not Cause Sterility. F&S Reports. Published online June 2, 2021. doi: 1016/j.xfre.2021.05.010.
12. Gonzalez DC, Nassau DE, Khodamoradi K, et al. Sperm Parameters Before and After COVID-19 mRNA Vaccination. JAMA. Published online June 17, 2021. doi: 10.1001/jama.2021.9976.
13. Carlsen E, Andersson A-M, Petersen JH, E.Skakkebæk N. History of Febrile Illness and Variation in Semen Quality. Hum Reprod 2003;18(10):2089–2092. doi: 1093/humrep/deg412.
14. Zauche LH, Wallace B, Smoots AN, et al. Receipt of mRNA COVID-19 Vaccines Preconception and During Pregnancy and Risk of Self-Reported Spontaneous Abortions, CDC v-safe COVID-19 Vaccine Pregnancy Registry 2020–21. Available at: Receipt of mRNA COVID-19 vaccines preconception and during pregnancy and risk of self-reported spontaneous abortions, CDC v-safe COVID-19 Vaccine Pregnancy Registry 2020-21 icon. Accessed August 10, 2021.

Source: CDC

 

[bravotwozero]

Nope... when I put the "Care today was provided under crisis surge capacity as we are over 200% capacity (Chest article citation)" in the chart it's there to protect myself. I probably need to make one for contingency care (over 120% capacity, 100-120% is contingency care). The standard of care changes for an MCI... and a pandemic is literally the example for a long term, high volume MCI.

Here's the standard of care for critical care surge capacity: DEFINE_ME

What is MCI?

 

[Neopolymath]

What is MCI?

Mass casualty incident

 

[MechEDoc]

Florida lost 5 cops in the last few days to COVID. The latest, young, mother of a 2 year old baby.

Geez. I know cops aren't the top of the heap statistically, but why can't people get their heads out of their backsides.

Don't they have some sort of medical advisor? I'd think their instruction would be to get vaccinated.

Do her colleagues say things like "body armor isn't proven to work" or "body armor doesn't work on the new variant of ammo"? Or "I'm healthy and there's a good trauma center nearby"? Or "most cops don't get shot in their vest anyways, besides, you might just die from commotio cordis"?

 

[BoardingDoc]

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam​

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam

Background: Data on breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant infections are limited.<br><br>Methods: We studied breakthrough infections among healthcare workers of

papers.ssrn.com

"Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls."

/Facepalm

Did you even read the actual study? Or did you see the abstract and jump on a line that seemed to support casting doubt on getting vaccinated?

From the actual paper: " One required cannula oxygen supplementation for three days but all made full recovery in line with recent reports regarding the vaccine effectiveness in protecting against severe disease"

"Lower levels of neutralizing antibodies after vaccination and at diagnosis were associated
with breakthrough infections in a recent report from Israel,18 supporting findings of the
present study. However, we found no correlation between vaccine-induced neutralizing antibody levels at diagnosis and the development of respiratory symptoms or viral loads (i.e. infectivity). Thus, while neutralizing antibodies might be a surrogate of protection, especially against severe diseases as a whole,19 they might not be good indicators of disease progression and infectiousness for breakthrough Delta variant infection. The rapid increase in neutralizing antibodies after infection among cases of the present study in turn suggested that a third dose may improve the immunity and potentially the protection"

Finally, this is entirely based on the AZ vaccine, which isn't even being used in the United States.

 

[Birdstrike]

For the record, I think the arguments over whether immunity from infection alone, versus immunity from vaccination alone, has become somewhat pointless. We now know, with a high level of certainty that neither natural immunity nor vaccine induced immunity to COVID, are lifelong. Add to that, even it it was lifelong to a certain strain, we're seeing a new strain every few months. Putting it all together, we need whatever immunity we can get. If you've had COVID, get the shot to increase your future protection. If you've had the shot, you'll be exposed to a new variant at some point, which will increase your future protection. Ditto for the booster.

 

[BigRedBeta]

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam​

Transmission of SARS-CoV-2 Delta Variant Among Vaccinated Healthcare Workers, Vietnam

Background: Data on breakthrough SARS-CoV-2 Delta variant infections are limited.<br><br>Methods: We studied breakthrough infections among healthcare workers of

papers.ssrn.com

"Neutralizing antibody levels after vaccination and at diagnosis of the cases were lower than those in the matched uninfected controls."

This study doesn't mean what you think it does.... Maybe you do know but haven't explained in any detail.

For those not going to read the article: Everyone in the study was vaccinated, those who had breakthrough infections had lower levels of antibodies...ergo not exactly surprising that they were the ones who got breakthrough infections compared to their vaccinated counterparts who did not have breakthrough infections. This same finding has been seen in at least 2 other studies I have read.

 

[doctalaughs]

word on the street (and this is gossip so I dont have proof) is that its a bunch of elective surgical fields who did the walk out. Derm, ophtho, plastics, etc etc. They want their elective OR time back.

I’ll just point out that derm doesn’t use the OR, essentially ever. If we can’t do it in the clinic, we don’t do it. Avoiding being beholden to any hospital is a core tenant of the specialty.

Carry on. Everyone get vaccinated please.

 

[BAM!]

I’ll just point out that derm doesn’t use the OR, essentially ever. If we can’t do it in the clinic, we don’t do it. Avoiding being beholden to any hospital is a core tenant of the specialty.

Carry on. Everyone get vaccinated please.

is mohs done in the clinic?

 

[Arcan57]

is mohs done in the clinic?

It was when I was a student doing my Derm rotation.

 

[Birdstrike]

If we can’t do it in the clinic, we don’t do it. Avoiding being beholden to any hospital is a core tenant of the specialty.

Amen. Amen and Amen. Me, since July 1, 2012. It's so, so freeing.

 

[Siggy]

Florida lost 5 cops in the last few days to COVID. The latest, young, mother of a 2 year old baby.

I'm sure they'll jump on advocating for vaccinations just like how they scare monger about Fentanyl powder causing officer to have "overdoes" that look a lot like panic attacks.

 

[southerndoc]

Looks like Delta is going to charge unvaccinated employees an additional $200/month for insurance and also require weekly COVID testing.

I'm sure more companies will follow suit -- not by mandating the vaccine, but by increasing costs of insurance for those not vaccinated.

 

[doctalaughs]

is mohs done in the clinic?

Yes. You can call it a procedure room or whatever - but it’s in the clinic with an overhead surgical light, bovie and 99.9% just local and no procedural sedation. A few Mohs surgeons in academic centers will do a random large case or two in the hospital OR but that’s like 0.0001%.

 

[wholeheartedly]

So what was reported as a walkout wasn’t actually and of course the mess completely overshadowed their message

https://www.usnews.com/news/us/articles/2021-08-24/fact-focus-florida-doctors-did-not-walk-off-the-job

but also, why should physicians not be able to walk out at this height of insanity?

 

[southerndoc]

It's amazing how people will spin things and repost/retweet/etc. to support their anti-vaccination cause.

 

[Old_Mil]

This appears to show that the delta variant is more contagious than older strains. I suspect you posted it because you interpret it as favoring not getting vaccinated, but I don't see how this paper supports that.

I've never posted anything that advocates "not getting vaccinated". I've posted things that indicate the fallacy behind "everyone has to get vaccinated." There's a major difference between those two points of view. In my opinion, "nobody should be vaccinated" and "everyone must be vaccinated" are both points of view that are unscientific and come from equal and opposite philosophical points of view. My personal opinion given the data that we are currently seeing is that Covid-19 vaccination should be reserved for high risk patients (known comorbidities, age, etc). We aren't going to get to any sort of herd immunity given the data below using these vaccines.

Treat the patient who is in front of you. The fact is that the vaccines are failing us in real time, and at this point are clearly less effective than the mid 90% data we were told when they were first released. Public health in Israel - in what may be the most vaccinated country in the world using the Pfizer vaccine (80%) - has just announced that you're going to be required to get a six month booster to be considered "vaccinated". Given the data below, that makes sense.

Large-scale study of antibody titer decay following BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 infection

Methods Antibody titers were measured between January 31, 2021, and July 31, 2021 in two mutually exclusive groups: i) vaccinated individuals who received two doses of BNT162b2 vaccine and had no history of previous infection with COVID-19 and ii) SARS-CoV-2 convalescents who had not received the vaccine.
Results A total of 2,653 individuals fully vaccinated by two doses of vaccine during the study period and 4,361 convalescent patients were included. Higher SARS-CoV-2 IgG antibody titers were observed in vaccinated individuals (median 1581 AU/mL IQR [533.8-5644.6]) after the second vaccination, than in convalescent individuals (median 355.3 AU/mL IQR [141.2-998.7]; p<0.001). In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month. Six months after BNT162b2 vaccination 16.1% subjects had antibody levels below the seropositivity threshold of <50 AU/mL, while only 10.8% of convalescent patients were below <50 AU/mL threshold after 9 months from SARS-CoV-2 infection.

 

[Old_Mil]

Here's another...

Differential effects of the second SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine dose on T cell immunity in naïve and COVID-19 recovered individuals

The rapid development and deployment of mRNA-based vaccines against the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) led to the design of accelerated vaccination schedules that have been extremely effective in naïve individuals. While a two-dose immunization regimen with the...

www.biorxiv.org

"Our results demonstrate that the second dose increases both the humoral and cellular immunity in naïve individuals. On the contrary, the second BNT162b2 vaccine dose results in a reduction of cellular immunity in COVID-19 recovered individuals"

 

[rokshana]

Well the list is growing

As CMS' requirement looms, at least 174 health systems currently mandate vaccination for their workforces

As cases again spiking across the country, top health officials have made it clear that COVID-19 is

www.fiercehealthcare.com

 

[Birdstrike]

... In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month. Six months after BNT162b2 vaccination 16.1% subjects had antibody levels below the seropositivity threshold of <50 AU/mL, while only 10.8% of convalescent patients were below <50 AU/mL threshold after 9 months from SARS-CoV-2 infection.

Here's another...

...

"Our results demonstrate that the second dose increases both the humoral and cellular immunity in naïve individuals. On the contrary, the second BNT162b2 vaccine dose results in a reduction of cellular immunity in COVID-19 recovered individuals"

What if you had two doses of Pfizer vaccine, then were infected with COVID?

 

[Birdstrike]

Here's another...

Differential effects of the second SARS-CoV-2 mRNA vaccine dose on T cell immunity in naïve and COVID-19 recovered individuals

The rapid development and deployment of mRNA-based vaccines against the severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus-2 (SARS-CoV-2) led to the design of accelerated vaccination schedules that have been extremely effective in naïve individuals. While a two-dose immunization regimen with the...

www.biorxiv.org

"Our results demonstrate that the second dose increases both the humoral and cellular immunity in naïve individuals. On the contrary, the second BNT162b2 vaccine dose results in a reduction of cellular immunity in COVID-19 recovered individuals"

This one is puzzling. Why would a second dose of Pfizer, in someone who had COVID previously, reduce their cellular immunity? I could understand it increasing it, or having no effect at all. But why would it decrease it, and what's the mechanism for that?

According to your pre-print, either:

"We can only hypothesize that the effector memory CD4+ T cells expanded by first vaccine dose in COVID-19 recovered individuals may be prone to activation-induced cell death (AICD) after the second vaccination dose,' or

"...We cannot however exclude that the second dose of the vaccine may only functionally exhaust the spike-specific T cells without really reducing the quantity of the long-term pool of effector memory T cells."

All far beyond my area of expertise, but interesting, nonetheless.

 

[WilcoWorld]

I've never posted anything that advocates "not getting vaccinated". I've posted things that indicate the fallacy behind "everyone has to get vaccinated."

In my opinion, that's a mighty fine hair that you're trying to split.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I've never posted anything that advocates "not getting vaccinated". I've posted things that indicate the fallacy behind "everyone has to get vaccinated." There's a major difference between those two points of view. In my opinion, "nobody should be vaccinated" and "everyone must be vaccinated" are both points of view that are unscientific and come from equal and opposite philosophical points of view. My personal opinion given the data that we are currently seeing is that Covid-19 vaccination should be reserved for high risk patients (known comorbidities, age, etc). We aren't going to get to any sort of herd immunity given the data below using these vaccines.

Treat the patient who is in front of you. The fact is that the vaccines are failing us in real time, and at this point are clearly less effective than the mid 90% data we were told when they were first released. Public health in Israel - in what may be the most vaccinated country in the world using the Pfizer vaccine (80%) - has just announced that you're going to be required to get a six month booster to be considered "vaccinated". Given the data below, that makes sense.

Large-scale study of antibody titer decay following BNT162b2 mRNA vaccine or SARS-CoV-2 infection

Methods Antibody titers were measured between January 31, 2021, and July 31, 2021 in two mutually exclusive groups: i) vaccinated individuals who received two doses of BNT162b2 vaccine and had no history of previous infection with COVID-19 and ii) SARS-CoV-2 convalescents who had not received the vaccine.
Results A total of 2,653 individuals fully vaccinated by two doses of vaccine during the study period and 4,361 convalescent patients were included. Higher SARS-CoV-2 IgG antibody titers were observed in vaccinated individuals (median 1581 AU/mL IQR [533.8-5644.6]) after the second vaccination, than in convalescent individuals (median 355.3 AU/mL IQR [141.2-998.7]; p<0.001). In vaccinated subjects, antibody titers decreased by up to 40% each subsequent month while in convalescents they decreased by less than 5% per month. Six months after BNT162b2 vaccination 16.1% subjects had antibody levels below the seropositivity threshold of <50 AU/mL, while only 10.8% of convalescent patients were below <50 AU/mL threshold after 9 months from SARS-CoV-2 infection.

what exactly are the dreaded risks that you think we are all missing with vaccination?

or is your position that we don’t have enough vaccines to go around and so should save them?

I fundamentally don’t get the disconnect here. If everyone is going to get COVID, why not have a vaccine first that shows a decrease in morbidity and mortality, as well as a small but real benefit against infection in the first place?

why is it that you are more concerned with the unknown effects of a vaccine vs an uncontrolled infection?

are you suggesting the rates of effectiveness of the vaccines against the original strain were lies? If so, how do you explain the previous dramatic drop in mortality and infection amongst the vaccinated?

and finally, how do you think the hospital systems would cope with double the number of sick covid patients we have currently, or even just 10% more? There wasn’t an icu bed in my state last week any day that I came in. Some of that is nursing shortage, some of it is covid pts lingering for weeks. It doesn’t really matter though, because either way we would be more screwed.

 

[Old_Mil]

In my opinion, that's a mighty fine hair that you're trying to split.

Not a fine line at all. Merely the practice of Hippocratic medicine instead of one size fits all bureaucracy. Some people should get the shot. Other people shouldn't. I'd say that is much better medicine than "everyone who works here must get the shot."

Here's another: Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

SARS-CoV-2-naive vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naive vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naive vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.

 

[Birdstrike]

Not a fine line at all. Merely the practice of Hippocratic medicine instead of one size fits all bureaucracy. Some people should get the shot. Other people shouldn't. I'd say that is much better medicine than "everyone who works here must get the shot."

Here's another: Comparing SARS-CoV-2 natural immunity to vaccine-induced immunity: reinfections versus breakthrough infections

SARS-CoV-2-naive vaccinees had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naive vaccinees had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naive vaccinees were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.

Immunity from infection was stronger than immunity from vaccine. I can buy that. But you left the most important part out:

"This study demonstrated that ...Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and
given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta
variant."

Yes, this one pre-print, non-peer reviewed retrospective study concluded that immunity from infection was better than vaccine induced. But, it showed even stronger than natural immunity alone, was having both natural immunity and vaccine bolstered immunity.

Based on my interpretation, this study does not support relying on natural immunity alone. It supports bolstering any natural immunity you've gotten from infection, with a vaccine.


(Article full text)

 

[WilcoWorld]

Not a fine line at all. Merely the practice of Hippocratic medicine instead of one size fits all bureaucracy. Some people should get the shot. Other people shouldn't. I'd say that is much better medicine than "everyone who works here must get the shot."

You are arguing against a false dichotomy. One that I do not espouse.

I never claimed "everyone who works here must get the shot." People with a documented history of anaphylaxis to a component of the vaccine, for instance, would be excused.

 

[Old_Mil]

What if you had two doses of Pfizer vaccine, then were infected with COVID?

There are an increasing number of people who fall into this category. In addition to that, it says that vaccinating the already immune carries with it a fourfold risk of side effects. So I can understand someone who is immune refusing the vaccine to avoid something like myocarditis.

 

[thegenius]

This would be another reason to get vaccinated instead of just getting COVID itself. Long-Haul COVID symptoms

MSN

"Among those hospitalized for COVID-19, 68% reported at least one continued, COVID-19-related symptom six months after their first symptoms appeared. While this percentage decreased by the 12-month mark, it remained relatively high, at 49%. And overall, patients who had been hospitalized for COVID-19 self-reported being in poorer health and having lower quality of life—including mobility issues— compared to controls.

The most common symptom patients reported 12 months later was fatigue or muscle weakness; other issues included sleep disturbances, changes in taste and smell, dizziness, headache and shortness of breath. Certain symptoms were actually worse at the 12-month mark than they were earlier on in the study: the proportion of patients reporting breathing problems increased slightly, from 26% to 30%, from six months to a year following their first symptoms. The patients also filled out questionnaires about their mental health, and while 23% reported feeling anxious or depressed six months after their first symptoms appeared, 30% did so at a year."



It's remarkable...really. 50% of people who were hospitalized with COVID report a COVID-19 related symptom 1 year after infection.

 

[thegenius]

Treat the patient who is in front of you. The fact is that the vaccines are failing us in real time, and at this point are clearly less effective than the mid 90% data we were told when they were first released. Public health in Israel - in what may be the most vaccinated country in the world using the Pfizer vaccine (80%) - has just announced that you're going to be required to get a six month booster to be considered "vaccinated". Given the data below, that makes sense.

We all just don't understand where you come up with statements like that. You make it seem like vaccines either are not helping, or are making us worse. They are not making us better?

How do you reconcile statements like that with every single ER doctor on here saying 80-90% of COVID admissions are in unvaccinated individuals, right now, in their hospitals?

Honestly I don't really know how to interpret the Israel data as it doesn't seem to match what is going on here in America.

The vaccines have been a huge success. See the Data on Breakthrough Covid Hospitalizations and Deaths by State

What is different in Israel? Were they en-mass vaccinated earlier? So their immunity will wane sooner?

Sorry man you post all of these studies yet your claims don't match with what's happening in the real world...here in 'Merica.

 

[Birdstrike]

Boosters every 5 months now

Biden, Fauci discuss requiring COVID booster shots every 5 months

President Biden and Dr. Anthony Fauci discussed requiring COVID-19 booster shots every five months rather than every eight as previously anticipated.

nypost.com

 

[Dr Mantis Toboggan]

Yeah I’m officially not sure about that..

Boosters every 5 months now

Biden, Fauci discuss requiring COVID booster shots every 5 months

President Biden and Dr. Anthony Fauci discussed requiring COVID-19 booster shots every five months rather than every eight as previously anticipated.

nypost.com

 

[bravotwozero]

I think this virus is running out of tricks. Theres only so much spike protein that can mutate. Every mutation comes at a certain selective cost to the virus, otherwise that mutation would have appeared a lot sooner.

Unless the lambda variant proves to become a more infectious and transmissible virus than the delta strain, we could very well begin to see the virus gradually transition itself to more of an endemic status.

Time will tell, but I’m hopeful.

 

[Birdstrike]

Unless the lambda variant proves to become a more infectious and transmissible virus than the delta strain, we could very well begin to see the virus gradually transition itself to more of an endemic status.

Time will tell, but I’m hopeful.

Not sure if anyone's interested but this is a pretty good article about how regardless of variants, SARS-COV-2 will become endemic and mostly harmless within a couple of years. Of course, we won't know for sure until that time, but the rationale seems plausible to my non-virologist brain. *Spoiler alert* it's not an anti-vaccine viewpoint, and explains that both natural and vaccine based immunity will work together to make it happen.

Why COVID-19 Is Here To Stay And Why You Shouldn't Worry About Variants

 

[Old_Mil]

We all just don't understand where you come up with statements like that. You make it seem like vaccines either are not helping, or are making us worse. They are not making us better?

How do you reconcile statements like that with every single ER doctor on here saying 80-90% of COVID admissions are in unvaccinated individuals, right now, in their hospitals?

Anecdotal evidence has some value. THIS vaccine is not helping to anywhere near the degree that it was supposed to. So perhaps it's time to take a step back and rethink how we are deploying it. If you're a 60 year old overweight patient with CHF and COPD, go get the shot. If you're a healthy 15 year old high school football player, think twice about it. While we're at it, let's stop talking about the "vaccinated" and "unvaccinated" and start talking about those who are immune and those who aren't. Finding that out is a very simple proposition based on existing lab tests, and anyone who is willing to accept a vaccine certificate for a vaccine whose real world efficacy may be half of what it was advertised to be in its initial studies should be willing to accept a positive antibody or T-cell test in lieu of it.

Honestly I don't really know how to interpret the Israel data as it doesn't seem to match what is going on here in America.

The vaccines have been a huge success. See the Data on Breakthrough Covid Hospitalizations and Deaths by State

What is different in Israel? Were they en-mass vaccinated earlier? So their immunity will wane sooner?

Sorry man you post all of these studies yet your claims don't match with what's happening in the real world...here in 'Merica.

The reason the real time data out of Israel is so important is that it gives us evidence about what the future results of our current policy will look like and whether it will be successful...because they've already implemented that policy to a far greater extent than we have.

 

[BoardingDoc]

Anecdotal evidence has some value. THIS vaccine is not helping to anywhere near the degree that it was supposed to. So perhaps it's time to take a step back and rethink how we are deploying it. If you're a 60 year old overweight patient with CHF and COPD, go get the shot. If you're a healthy 15 year old high school football player, think twice about it. While we're at it, let's stop talking about the "vaccinated" and "unvaccinated" and start talking about those who are immune and those who aren't. Finding that out is a very simple proposition based on existing lab tests, and anyone who is willing to accept a vaccine certificate for a vaccine whose real world efficacy may be half of what it was advertised to be in its initial studies should be willing to accept a positive antibody or T-cell test in lieu of it.



The reason the real time data out of Israel is so important is that it gives us evidence about what the future results of our current policy will look like and whether it will be successful...because they've already implemented that policy to a far greater extent than we have.

You continue to post about how the vaccine has failed to live up to expectations, and yet the mortality rate amongst vaccinated people is a small fraction of that compared to unvaccinated counterparts across all age groups.

Moreover, why should the 15 year old football player not get vaccinated? Because they're less likely to die than a 85 yr old? By that logic they shouldn't get vaccinated against virtually any other disease. Measles? Probably won't kill them so why bother? Same with mumps and rubella.

There's a name for people who espouse this kind of rhetoric. They're called anti vaxxers.

 

[turkeyjerky]

Anecdotal evidence has some value. THIS vaccine is not helping to anywhere near the degree that it was supposed to. So perhaps it's time to take a step back and rethink how we are deploying it. If you're a 60 year old overweight patient with CHF and COPD, go get the shot. If you're a healthy 15 year old high school football player, think twice about it. While we're at it, let's stop talking about the "vaccinated" and "unvaccinated" and start talking about those who are immune and those who aren't. Finding that out is a very simple proposition based on existing lab tests, and anyone who is willing to accept a vaccine certificate for a vaccine whose real world efficacy may be half of what it was advertised to be in its initial studies should be willing to accept a positive antibody or T-cell test in lieu of it.



The reason the real time data out of Israel is so important is that it gives us evidence about what the future results of our current policy will look like and whether it will be successful...because they've already implemented that policy to a far greater extent than we have.

Agree to disagree that the current crop of vaccines is ineffective. However, I do think that you're right about 'immune vs non-immune'. It's a real problem that they spent so much time hyping up reinfections and the possible lack of durable immunity last year (for the completely reasonable purpose of preventing idiots hosting covid parties and antimask idiots lying about previous infections to justify their refusal to adhere to social norms) only for the reality to be much more complicated. Just another example of rampant scientific journalist malfeasance.

 

[Birdstrike]

If you're a healthy 15 year old high school football player, think twice about it.

Moreover, why should the 15 year old football player not get vaccinated?

In regards to the concern about myocarditis from the vaccine, did you guys see the NEJM study that came out 3 days ago?

It showed you were 3.24 times more likely to get myocarditis if you had the Pfizer vaccine. It also showed 18.28 times more likely to get myocarditis if you got COVID. The myocarditis was most common in young males. That's no suprise, because myocarditis is most common in young males.

 

[1DeletedAccount]

Children are very unlikely to experience significant morbidity or mortality from COVID-19. While I think essentially everyone has or will be exposed/infected with COVID-19, it's not an absolute guarantee, nor is the level of exposure/infection predetermined. It could be a very small viral load that then builds up some immunity. The vaccine on the other hand is a conscious decision that could potentially result in harm however unlikely. The key difference is the immediacy of the result of the conscious choice to receive a vaccine with the associated risks vs. the ambiguity of possible exposure/infection and a high likelihood of limited morbidity/mortality. The vaccine also hasn't really been shown to prevent you from spreading COVID-19 and so I don't think we've really shown that there is as significant a benefit from the vaccine for children.

 

[1DeletedAccount]

Moreover, why should the 15 year old football player not get vaccinated? Because they're less likely to die than a 85 yr old? By that logic they shouldn't get vaccinated against virtually any other disease. Measles? Probably won't kill them so why bother? Same with mumps and rubella.

It seems that the breakthrough rate for COVID-19 in vaccinated individuals is significantly higher than those diseases. I know their prevalence is significantly lower, but I wonder if there were equally high numbers of breakthrough infections when they were more prominent historically.

 

[DoctwoB]

Children are very unlikely to experience significant morbidity or mortality from COVID-19. While I think essentially everyone has or will be exposed/infected with COVID-19, it's not an absolute guarantee, nor is the level of exposure/infection predetermined. It could be a very small viral load that then builds up some immunity. The vaccine on the other hand is a conscious decision that could potentially result in harm however unlikely. The key difference is the immediacy of the result of the conscious choice to receive a vaccine with the associated risks vs. the ambiguity of possible exposure/infection and a high likelihood of limited morbidity/mortality. The vaccine also hasn't really been shown to prevent you from spreading COVID-19 and so I don't think we've really shown that there is as significant a benefit from the vaccine for children.

You’re neglecting the fact that covid has a much higher risk then the vaccine even in young individuals. You’re scared about myocarditis? That’s fair, the risk is about 3x higher after vaccine compared to general population. Only problem? The risk is 19x higher after Covid infection compared to gen pop. Ditto for basically any other side effect you’re worried about.

The one argument I do buy is that it is reasonable not to mandate vaccination in those who’ve already had Covid based on current data, even though I would still recommend it to anyone. It becomes tricky logistically but would need some verified way of showing prior positive test or antibody titers.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

 

[1DeletedAccount]

You’re neglecting the fact that covid has a much higher risk then the vaccine even in young individuals. You’re scared about myocarditis? That’s fair, the risk is about 3x higher after vaccine compared to general population. Only problem? The risk is 19x higher after Covid infection compared to gen pop. Ditto for basically any other side effect you’re worried about.

The one argument I do buy is that it is reasonable not to mandate vaccination in those who’ve already had Covid based on current data, even though I would still recommend it to anyone. It becomes tricky logistically but would need some verified way of showing prior positive test or antibody titers.

https://www.nejm.org/doi/full/10.1056/NEJMoa2110475

COVID-19 has very minimal risk to children. It also has minimal risk to non-obese, healthy individuals under the age of 50.

I'm not really worried about the risk of myocarditis with either. I was primarily pointing out that I think for many people it somewhat boils down to making a conscious choice to receive something (i.e any treatment or intervention in general) that could potentially also cause harm vs. the vague unknown of contracting a disease.

I suspect the vast majority of children (and society) have already either been exposed or infected with some variant of COVID-19.

 

[dadaddadaBATMAN]

I don’t get how you can say out of one side of your mouth that everyone will inevitably be infected and out of the other side of your mouth that the one treatment we have that has concrete evidence to decrease morbidity, mortality (and infectious spread despite the gas lighting here) should not be administered.

While I respect several of the individuals posting overall, the position old mil and a few others are taking is asinine. I am finished engaging, as it seems likely it will only entrench you all further.