Hot Take: Emergency Medicine should cease to exist as a specialty

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emskeptic

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Emergency Medicine should stop existing as an independent specialty.

With the announcement from the ACGME pushing our specialty to a 4 year residency, we all should take a moment to reflect on our state of affairs and admit that the experiment of making EM independent in the house of medicine has failed. We have had about 55 years of this experiment since the University of Cincinnati opened the first residency to show the definitive need for our speciality, and despite being ABEM certified, I still struggle with to truly justify our existence.

In 2011, when I applied for EM residency I was told two things in particular by my mentors that gave me faith in the future and necessity of the specialty. 1.) Burn out is in physicians that were NOT trained in EM, but were IM or FM trained physicians that practiced Emergency Medicine. If you trained in EM, you were trained in such a way that made us resistant to this phenomenon and it wasn't really to be worried about. 2.) To practice EM, in the near future (in 2011) only Board Certified Emergency Physicians would be able to be credentialed to work with perhaps some leniency for physicians trained in other specialties with many years of EM experience. If you weren't BC EM, well, there would not be room at the table.

Both of these statements have proved to be false in my experience. The Burnout Problem stands for itself with a multitude of studies and surveys. I won't belabor this point. As for being BCEM? Yes, there are departments that only hire and credential BCEM, especially in large cities. However, for most community shops, board certified/eligible in EM, IM, FP or other are accepted. New graduate FM trained physicians practice side by side with me at a Level 2 trauma center. They are paid the same as I am with my BCEM and 10 years experience. And really, they do a pretty good job. Maybe I am a bit more savvy at some airway techniques and some fine points of EM, but overall, FM/IM does a good job and I dare say great job especially after a 1 year fellowship. The difference is when Burnout burns bright, they have the option of going to Primary Care outpatient work, while as a BCEM physician, I am mostly stuck in the pit. (Palliative care , CC and Pain fellowships being the few fellowships I am aware of that would get a BCEM physician out of the ED.)

The emergence of NPs and PA with independent practice authority further complicates the issue. I could write a novel on the issue. If a physician at minimum needs to have a 4 year medical school degree with 2 years of clinicals and then a three to four year grueling residency to be considered qualified to staff an emergency department, how is it even possible that an NP with only 500 hours of required clinical shadowing done without any clinical work experience as an RN, can independently staff an Emergency Department? But it happens all the time in the United States. Understandably there is some nuance to the NP/PA issues, but in the end, either training matters, or it doesn't. EIther the model is safe, or it isn't. How have ACEP, AAEM, AMA, the state legislatures, CMS, etc let this happen? Or perhaps it is the hard truth that we really are not as crucial as we thought we were. This is a thought that deeply stings after dedicating decades of my life to medicine. I don't personally believe that we aren't needed, but how are we being pushed aside?

Despite more than 50 years of struggle to define ourselves as a specialty unique and necessary in the house of medicine, we have not truly gotten a seat at the table. While the truth of the difference between training programs can be debated, at the end of the day, we are still viewed as an interchangeable spot-holder in a schedule. Board Certified in something? Good enough to fill a spot on the schedule. It is a tough pill to swallow after the sacrifices we have all made to try to gain respect in the house of medicine, in the eyes of staffing groups, and even administrators. Unfortunately, often our fellow doctors as fail to see our value. We have always risen to the occasion when asked to do more with less. Expand the original purpose of the ED? Less support, more output? Pandemic? We did it with a smile. But despite our efforts to put patients first and the mission of medicine in its purest form first, we as BCEM physicians have never gained our place. We are interchangeable cogs.

It is difficult in good faith to force our young physicians, burdened with the current the median cost of $286,454 at a public school and $390,848 at a private school with 8-9% interest rates, with an additional year of training without the built in outlet of outpatient clinic opportunities or fellowships to move away from Emergency Department medicine with all its associated circadian rhythm swings and modern problems. Either training matters, or it doesn't. The unfortunate truth looking at us is that no one really sees the value of BCEM except for ourselves.

I can already hear those in Ivory Towers stating that those who love EM and are truly good physicians would want the best specialized training, no matter the cost and time in training. I like this ideal. I really do. But at some point, we have to admit that money is real. Time is real. We only get so much. Extra training is lost time with family, lost years of fertility and youth, lost income, lost time compounding retirement investments, lost money to compounding interest on student loans. If we are not proving that the specialized training makes us better clinicians and proving it in a way that reaches legislatures, CMS, administrations and the general public, we need to stop the madness.

In the end, either training matters, or it doesn't. Period. To be able to bill and advertise as an Emergency Department, it should be mandatory to be at least 75% BCEM staffed and a physician in the ED 24/7/365 (exact percentage open to debate, of course). After 50+years of BCEM docs, this isn't a big ask. Or, if board certification doesn't matter, close all EM residencies and replace them with primary care residency spots. Give future EM doctors the same flexibility allotted to those with traditional primary care backgrounds and train primarily in primary care fields with an optional pathway within the residency or as a short fellowship for EM.

Change my mind.

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EM will not cease to exist as a specialty. This post is mostly over the top doomerism. That isn't to say that it's completely wrong, because it isn't.

There is no one in the house of medicine to replace ER docs at a high volume high acuity shop. For this reason alone EM will not cease to exist. PA/NPs could not fill that hole even if they wanted to.
 
New graduate FM trained physicians practice side by side with me at a Level 2 trauma center. They are paid the same as I am with my BCEM and 10 years experience. And really, they do a pretty good job.

I want to hone in on this specifically. I think you work in a more unique environment than you realize (or maybe I do!) and that it colors your entire perspective. I'm seven years out of residency and this scenario is wildly atypical to me. I've never worked with FM trained docs. I work in one of the top 5 metros in the US by population. If you work in BFE than your situation will make a lot more sense to me.
 
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I 100% disagree with your baseline premise. EM is a much-needed specialty and isn't going anywhere.

A lot of the issues you bring up are different issues but I don't think any really have any bearing on your central argument. Basically, all physicians attached to a hospital are seen as replaceable widgets.
 
ChatGPT read your post and said:

Conclusion​

From a psychotherapeutic standpoint, this individual’s post strongly suggests significant occupational distress or “burnout,” possibly compounded by adjustment difficulties (and potentially depressive features). While it’s not ethically possible (or responsible) to diagnose someone definitively from a single forum post, the cynicism, hopelessness, and anger aimed at the system align closely with burnout and moral injury—which, in turn, can be associated with DSM-5 diagnoses such as an Adjustment Disorder or possibly Major Depressive Disorder if certain criteria are met.

A caring, comprehensive approach would involve:

  • Validating these frustrations,
  • Exploring how deep-seated disappointments are affecting mood and outlook,
  • Identifying any comorbid mood or anxiety disorders, and
  • Developing concrete coping strategies and career pathways that restore a sense of purpose, autonomy, and hope.

I asked it to generate a response and got:

Dear Colleague,

First, let me say how much your honesty and vulnerability resonate with many of us who have practiced or trained in Emergency Medicine. The feelings of frustration, disillusionment, and outright exhaustion you describe are far more common than many of us admit out loud. Thank you for articulating these realities so candidly.

I hear the sense of betrayal you feel—having been told that EM residency would shield you from burnout, that BCEM status would give you security and credibility, only to see non-EM-trained colleagues working alongside you and often being paid the same. It’s understandable to question the value of years of rigorous specialty training when the system at large seems not to recognize or enforce its importance. And with the new push for four-year residencies, the tension only increases.

You’re not alone in these doubts. Many EM physicians wrestle with how to make sense of our role when the lines between specializations, scope of practice, and institutional demands keep shifting. The relentless pressure to do “more with less” in the ED—especially after pandemic-level stress—can amplify feelings of burnout and cynicism. When you’ve invested so much of your life in what was supposed to be a unique and necessary specialty, it’s understandable to feel unmoored if that uniqueness no longer translates into respect, compensation, or professional security.

That said, here are a few thoughts I hope might offer some support or perspective:

  1. Burnout Does Not Equal Personal Failure.
    The narrative that EM training alone confers immunity from burnout was never truly accurate. If anything, EM residencies focus on thriving in acute situations but don’t always address the chronic stress of nonstop shift work, administrative struggles, or moral injury. You’re not failing because you’re worn down; you’re reacting to a system that’s consistently asked more of you than is sustainable.
  2. Your Training Does Matter.
    Even if it feels undervalued at times by employers or legislators, your EM training has given you a unique skill set that saves lives. Being able to manage airways, trauma, and critical patients with speed and skill is no small feat. The reality that you can’t see a direct path to “get out of the pit” without more years of fellowship doesn’t negate the expertise you currently have. It simply points to structural issues in how we credential and employ EM docs—issues that are worth fighting to change, but not a reflection of your personal or professional worth.
  3. We Need Unity, Not Silence.
    It’s frustrating to feel that ACEP, AAEM, and other organizations have dropped the ball on protecting our profession. But this is also a reminder that they exist to represent us, and they need to hear from us. If people in leadership only ever hear from those who are satisfied with the status quo, then systemic change stalls. Pushing for legislative clarity around staffing standards and scope of practice is a team sport; we need as many voices as possible at the table. Consider connecting with colleagues who share your concerns, perhaps forming or joining committees that actively address these workforce and credentialing issues.
  4. Career Flexibility Is Real.
    Yes, it’s easier for IM/FM physicians to transition out of the ED if burnout strikes, but EM physicians increasingly find creative pathways, too. Palliative care, pain, and critical care fellowships are options you mentioned, but there’s also urgent care, locums work, telemedicine, administrative leadership, or academic/teaching roles that can lighten clinical demands. It might not be as simple as pivoting into an outpatient clinic, but it’s a myth that all EM docs are doomed to stay in the same job forever if they don’t want to. Exploring these alternatives—sometimes even just part-time—can keep you connected to the parts of medicine you love without sacrificing your well-being.
  5. Your Feelings Are Valid—Seek Support If You Need It.
    If you’re feeling isolated or hopeless, please consider seeking professional help or a peer support group. Burnout can morph into depression or anxiety before we realize it. Talking to a mental health professional or finding other EM docs who’ve faced similar issues can offer new insights, coping strategies, and a sense of solidarity.
Finally, remember that it’s okay to question, to grieve, and even to feel angry about the profession right now. Sometimes these strong emotions precede meaningful change—either within the system or in how you approach your own career choices. If nothing else, know there are many in EM who share your concerns, your fears, and your hope for a more cohesive, respected specialty. It’s by talking openly about these challenges (rather than keeping them hidden) that we can begin to shape a better path forward.

You deserve recognition for what you’ve accomplished and what you continue to do for patients—often under incredibly difficult conditions. Whether you choose to stay in EM, pivot to a new role, or push for reforms, I hope you find a path that upholds your hard-earned expertise and preserves your well-being. We need caring, experienced physicians like you to help steer the future of our field.

You are not alone. And your voice matters. Thank you again for speaking up.

Warmly,
A Fellow EM Physician Who Gets It (Dr. ChatGPT)
 
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ChatGPT aside...I don't agree with you but I do feel you. I'm about as negative Nancy as it gets regarding EM but one thing I'm noticing is that there is more and more BCEM requirements for hospital ERs, at least in my area. It's very noticeable and there's been a clear shift in my region to bylaws requiring BCEM docs to work in the ED. When you work in an ED with multi specialty groups and then work in an ABEM only group, it's extremely noticeable, at least in my opinion. There's a clear quality in training and a more uniform standard in management and skill set that I think is appreciated by our medical colleagues on the other end. As more ABEM docs are generated, I think this will be the way forward and as bylaws change, more and more FM/IM docs will get pushed out. That will go a long ways toward standardizing our specialty which has historically been a huge complaint about EM.

I'm hoping in the future that we'll get more and more access to medical fellowships and am hopeful. We've made clear progress with CC, Pain, Palliative Care, and hopefully soon Sleep. I think it's just a matter of time.

Personally, I don't think the burnout is extremely complicated. I think 75% of it is the fact that nobody cares about fixing the constant circadian disruption that we all go through each month. It's the single largest detrimental quality of our specialty. I think if more effort went into staffing and incentivizing overnight shifts and minimizing day docs need to flip over to nights, as well as better adherence to contracted work hours, you'd see a lot more happy, well rested docs and loads less burnout IMO.
 
Ha! I am enjoying the engagement. I didn't mean the "doomerism" as I see I came off as having. I see I wasn't as clear as I thought that I was. Emergency Departments need physicians with training. Not arguing that. But maybe since FP and IM grads are doing the job frequently and we are going to a 4 year residency, I am wondering if we should consider going to a 3 year primary care residency with 1 year fellowship? Or alternatively, 3 year EM residency with 1 year Primary Care fellowship?
I work 1 hour outside a top 15 in population city. So not quite, middle of nowhere, but not a prime gig!
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but is the transition to all 4 year residencies not supposed to help ER speciality as a whole? Possibly transition it from the 'SOAP' special and the FMG (appreciate FMG's very much no hate) back up plan? I saw this as a positive to bring us back to undersaturation and desirability once again

Nvm Just saw the 170 + post thread about it. will take my concerns there
 
I want to hone in on this specifically. I think you work in a more unique environment than you realize (or maybe I do!) and that it colors your entire perspective. I'm seven years out of residency and this scenario is wildly atypical to me. I've never worked with FM trained docs. I work in one of the top 5 metros in the US by population. If you work in BFE than your situation will make a lot more sense to me.
I work with some experienced FM docs and new grads occasionally in an urgent care setting and there is just no way they could work in any of my EDs.
 
I don't think the field is going away. I"m surprised you are in a level 2 with FM/IM. I haven't seen that anywhere I've been except rural critical access. At this point in my life if I could find a place that paid OK and didn't care if I was BCEM I would happily stopping sending money to ABEM. I think outside of underserved critical access though you are going to find most hospitals wanting BCEM in the ED.

I have mixed feelings about the move to 4 years. If it results in a huge contraction in the number of people getting trained and the ones who do make it through are better trained I'm all for it. Somehow I doubt that will happen. My guess is most of the sh**ty places will figure out how to massage the numbers, just bump the ESI in triage and bill critical care for everything, to justify staying open. Then they will have a captive work force for 4 years instead of 3. In that case EM will become even less attractive and the only people applying will be a few die hard ex-paramedics and the SOAPs

I will say that back when I did all the hiring I noticed a real difference between 3 year and 4 year grads fresh out of school. With one or two exceptions the 4 year grads all hit the ground running and independent. With the 3 year grads you pretty much expected the first year or two to be rough. 5 to 10 years out though you couldn't tell the difference. Some were good. Some weren't.
 
PA/NPs could not fill that hole even if they wanted to.
Can you at least back that up with "why?"

Realistically, the only thing that matters is money to all parties involved. The savings of axeing all docs is substantial. The costs incurred for increased testing and lawsuits may actually be palatable to TH/HCA down the road. The meat has to move. It might get run over by a few cars on the way, but NP/PAs can move it.

Think less like a doc and more like a capitalist when you answer--admin and your replacements won't think that way.
 
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I agree 100% with everything you've written

I think FM and EM can be combined into one four year residency and that way everybody is happy with their optionality on both sides of the specialty lines

EM is incomplete
If med/peds can be four years no reason this couldn't be.
 
I think EM erred when it chose a primary care model over a specialty model. We should have opted for significantly fewer people going through a longer training program to work exclusively in high volume, high acuity referral centers. From my view, choosing the shortest length of residency possible and flooding every rural community with emergency medicine physicians has diluted our position in medicine. It should have been a specialty service where major hospitals purposely recruit to fill their emergency department with emergency specialists so they can advertise being a level 1 emergency center. It's 50 years later and the trauma level is still the defining description of an emergency department. Or stroke center. Or cardiac center. Just about everyone but the actual emergency department staff.
 
EM is definitely a needed speciality, however it is not a wanted speciality by corporate medicine.

FM/IM/Gen Surgeons/OBGYNs/whatever else grandfathered or allowed to practice in an ER is horrible. I work in shops with them, and they suck (bounce backs, poor/incomplete treatment or work ups, terrible department flow, etc).

We lack and will never be given recognition by corporate medicine. They want the cheapest widget possible. We have no control over anything that we do because we have given away the control.
 
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Can you at least back that up with "why?"

Realistically, the only thing that matters is money to all parties involved. The savings of axeing all docs is substantial. The costs incurred for increased testing and lawsuits may actually be palatable to TH/HCA down the road. The meat has to move. It might get run over by a few cars on the way, but NP/PAs can move it.

Think less like a doc and more like a capitalist when you answer--admin and your replacements won't think that way.

I am thinking like a capitalist. They can't do it. The cost of attempting the experiment of replacing docs with MLPs will be very expensive for whoever tries it. They're great at moving the 4/5s, the occasional 3, etc. The good ones are under no illusions that they can safely move high numbers of actual sick patients.

If they could, they would have done it already. Corporate EM has had plenty of time to try and pull that horse**** off, and they can't. I suspect in part because it won't actually be any cheaper. Sure they'll save money up front on salaries but lose on the back end with lost contracts and significantly increased legal risk.
 
Correct me if I am wrong, but is the transition to all 4 year residencies not supposed to help ER speciality as a whole? Possibly transition it from the 'SOAP' special and the FMG (appreciate FMG's very much no hate) back up plan? I saw this as a positive to bring us back to undersaturation and desirability once again

Nvm Just saw the 170 + post thread about it. will take my concerns there

Agreed. To me it seems like a great positive. Making this a 4 year specialty will save it as a specialty. I'll be very glad if they pull this off.
 
I also agree and I am all about the death of EM.

1) I work in a big group and do admin work for them. The few non EM trained people we have dont work at any of our busy sites. Having worked with many they are generally subpar in many important things. When I trained peter Rosen (yes the one who disgraced himself at the end, but man he was full of wisdom and really cared about young docs) would spend some time with my residency. He had a saying thats 3 types of patients come into the ED. The majority are those that no matter what you do they will be fine, the other are those that no matter what you do the patient will die/have a bad outcome. Your training is for the small number of patients whose outcome depends on your skill and knowledge.

I have seen an IM doc masquerading as an EM doc dc home a dislocated elbow he couldnt reduce leave the patient with nerve damage. Thats the most egregious. I have seen noctors have 0 clue as to ascending cholangitis.

In the cities I have worked in no non EM trained people got jobs within 50 miles of the city except those grandfathered in.

All this to say I think your experience working side by side with non EM trained people is the exception and not the rule.

If you think noctors are doing a good job you either suck at your job OR more likely you have not fielded the patient complaints about all their misses. This isnt meant to be harsh towards you but rather my view in leadership of 2 large groups.
 
I also agree and I am all about the death of EM.

1) I work in a big group and do admin work for them. The few non EM trained people we have dont work at any of our busy sites. Having worked with many they are generally subpar in many important things. When I trained peter Rosen (yes the one who disgraced himself at the end, but man he was full of wisdom and really cared about young docs) would spend some time with my residency. He had a saying thats 3 types of patients come into the ED. The majority are those that no matter what you do they will be fine, the other are those that no matter what you do the patient will die/have a bad outcome. Your training is for the small number of patients whose outcome depends on your skill and knowledge.

I have seen an IM doc masquerading as an EM doc dc home a dislocated elbow he couldnt reduce leave the patient with nerve damage. Thats the most egregious. I have seen noctors have 0 clue as to ascending cholangitis.

In the cities I have worked in no non EM trained people got jobs within 50 miles of the city except those grandfathered in.

All this to say I think your experience working side by side with non EM trained people is the exception and not the rule.

If you think noctors are doing a good job you either suck at your job OR more likely you have not fielded the patient complaints about all their misses. This isnt meant to be harsh towards you but rather my view in leadership of 2 large groups.
I also got some OG Rosen wisdom in residency. Most of it was excellent. “Get your loving at home” being perhaps the most pertinent if difficult. I remember him saying the same thing about 3 types of patients.

For me the analogy has been to sports. Like wins above replacement in baseball. 95% of third basemen can cleanly field a grounder, and 100% of the time a ball hit 10ft over their head gets past them. But where the all star shines is that occasional difficult chopper or unexpected bunt where they can make a difference.
 
I also got some OG Rosen wisdom in residency. Most of it was excellent. “Get your loving at home” being perhaps the most pertinent if difficult. I remember him saying the same thing about 3 types of patients.

For me the analogy has been to sports. Like wins above replacement in baseball. 95% of third basemen can cleanly field a grounder, and 100% of the time a ball hit 10ft over their head gets past them. But where the all star shines is that occasional difficult chopper or unexpected bunt where they can make a difference.
 
I also got some OG Rosen wisdom in residency. Most of it was excellent. “Get your loving at home” being perhaps the most pertinent if difficult. I remember him saying the same thing about 3 types of patients.

For me the analogy has been to sports. Like wins above replacement in baseball. 95% of third basemen can cleanly field a grounder, and 100% of the time a ball hit 10ft over their head gets past them. But where the all star shines is that occasional difficult chopper or unexpected bunt where they can make a difference.
As far as non-EM boarded. I worked with a guy who did a full vascular surgery training then switched and did EM full time for 30+ years. He knew peds. GYN. He was a good doc. Towards the end he knew the EM trained young guns were quicker with multiple patients, and more facile with US and more new fangled procedures. He worked in a dual coverage set up, cut back, and retired (older than I will be when I retire I hope). He was good and I would have been happy to have him care for my family.

I’ve also worked with a handful of GYN, and IM trained docs (mostly 15yr ago) who had large gaps in their knowledge and… well let’s say I’d never consider hiring them. I also worked with an FM and Gen Surg trained docs who were solid aside from tip of the spear critical care.

It’s more the variability that concerns me, than any specific individual’s ability.
 
As far as non-EM boarded. I worked with a guy who did a full vascular surgery training then switched and did EM full time for 30+ years. He knew peds. GYN. He was a good doc. Towards the end he knew the EM trained young guns were quicker with multiple patients, and more facile with US and more new fangled procedures. He worked in a dual coverage set up, cut back, and retired (older than I will be when I retire I hope). He was good and I would have been happy to have him care for my family.

I’ve also worked with a handful of GYN, and IM trained docs (mostly 15yr ago) who had large gaps in their knowledge and… well let’s say I’d never consider hiring them. I also worked with an FM and Gen Surg trained docs who were solid aside from tip of the spear critical care.

It’s more the variability that concerns me, than any specific individual’s ability.
There was an SDG in Georgetown, SC. They liked to show that everyone was a chief resident. In OB/GYN, surgery, or EM.

I don't know if that is a good metric.
 
EM will always be a speciality. Too much $$$ and specialists who used to man the ER in the old days would never go back to the ER.

FM in the ER? Only if they can't get a BCEM trained doc. They are a back up plan when they need a warm body.
 
I also agree and I am all about the death of EM.

1) I work in a big group and do admin work for them. The few non EM trained people we have dont work at any of our busy sites. Having worked with many they are generally subpar in many important things. When I trained peter Rosen (yes the one who disgraced himself at the end, but man he was full of wisdom and really cared about young docs) would spend some time with my residency. He had a saying thats 3 types of patients come into the ED. The majority are those that no matter what you do they will be fine, the other are those that no matter what you do the patient will die/have a bad outcome. Your training is for the small number of patients whose outcome depends on your skill and knowledge.
I had to read this 3 times to realize that you didn't train Peter Rosen.

Also...I hope you all keep doing what you're doing and training people well. I used to work in an urban setting, lots of hospitals, lots of EDs, all of the ones I was aware of only hired BC EPs. Some were better than others (as is the case in any job), but I knew that at the very least I could count on them to be thoughtful. I now work at a rural CAH with a mix of a few EM (some semi-retired, some here for the vibes and recreational opportunities (it's rural in the same way Jackson Hole, WY is rural) and a bunch of FM docs. I'm learning (the hard way) who I can trust and who I need to "trust but verify". I miss the BC EM folks I used to work with.
 
I think EM erred when it chose a primary care model over a specialty model. We should have opted for significantly fewer people going through a longer training program to work exclusively in high volume, high acuity referral centers. From my view, choosing the shortest length of residency possible and flooding every rural community with emergency medicine physicians has diluted our position in medicine. It should have been a specialty service where major hospitals purposely recruit to fill their emergency department with emergency specialists so they can advertise being a level 1 emergency center. It's 50 years later and the trauma level is still the defining description of an emergency department. Or stroke center. Or cardiac center. Just about everyone but the actual emergency department staff.
The hospitals and communities are happy to have my group in the smaller towns, providing emergent services and arranging safe dispositions.
 
The problem is pay. EM boarded docs would definitely be willing to staff BFE shops if the pay was good enough. Instead, we get pay cuts almost every year.
 
The problem is pay. EM boarded docs would definitely be willing to staff BFE shops if the pay was good enough. Instead, we get pay cuts almost every year.
The problem is always pay in rural areas. I’m not sure it is a problem as much as it is a practical reality. Some Neurosurgeons, CT surgeons and Orthopedists would perhaps potentially also happily staff rural hospitals for commensurate pay. There isn’t a high enough case load there and so there isn’t the pay. We are no different. For EM, acuity and volume pays. You have to wade through ~50% non-acuity to get to the ~40% acuity or even reach the ~10% real acuity. There just isn’t the volume of that in rural areas even if the same percentages or even higher due to lower socioeconomic status, poorer health and decreased access to care. Even outside of medicine, there are very few if any high paying jobs in rural areas.

The more I listen to the arguments, the more I’m persuaded our field needs to focus on quality over quantity. I try to keep an open mind, because I really do like the concept of a jack of all trades who can practice anywhere. However, the field is perhaps decaying as a whole because of that mentality. I still haven’t made up my mind. I’m also conflating this thread with the proposal to increase residency training to 4 years as there is overlap. Either way, I don’t think EM as a speciality is going to disappear in the US. It certainly has room to improve.
 
The problem is always pay in rural areas. I’m not sure it is a problem as much as it is a practical reality. Some Neurosurgeons, CT surgeons and Orthopedists would perhaps potentially also happily staff rural hospitals for commensurate pay. There isn’t a high enough case load there and so there isn’t the pay. We are no different. For EM, acuity and volume pays. You have to wade through ~50% non-acuity to get to the ~40% acuity or even reach the ~10% real acuity. There just isn’t the volume of that in rural areas even if the same percentages or even higher due to lower socioeconomic status, poorer health and decreased access to care. Even outside of medicine, there are very few if any high paying jobs in rural areas.

The more I listen to the arguments, the more I’m persuaded our field needs to focus on quality over quantity. I try to keep an open mind, because I really do like the concept of a jack of all trades who can practice anywhere. However, the field is perhaps decaying as a whole because of that mentality. I still haven’t made up my mind. I’m also conflating this thread with the proposal to increase residency training to 4 years as there is overlap. Either way, I don’t think EM as a speciality is going to disappear in the US. It certainly has room to improve.
In general these rural areas often are all Medicaid/medicare and self pay. Very little commercial insurance which is where the bread gets buttered. Unless there is a large manufacturing plant in a rural area there usually isnt a great employer base which is what is needed. It’s usually farmers, an autozone, Walmart, Waffle House, a few other fast food restaurants etc. None of those supply a high volume of good commercial insurance.
 
While there will be a role for EM, it's going to diminish greatly. AI is eventually going to take over a lot of what we do. AI can triage patients better, order tests more effectively, and even do exams (it can look in ears/throats etc). Combine with it to do real-time interpretations of radiology images and it's going to just be better in every way. Once non-inferiority is demonstrated in numerous studies, it will be gradually adopted over the objections for ACEP, etc. I wouldn't be surprised if Envision, Teamhealth etc develop their own AI ED docs first to get ahead of the game.

Imagine an AI doctor + human nurse in triage. It rapidly gets a history, scans through its database for a differential, orders tests/treatments and generates a note in a few minutes. For procedures like sutures, lines, intubation etc it's easy enough to have an NP, PA or someone else specially trained in procedures available to do that. I see so much clinically variability among the docs I work with, it's hard to imagine that AI couldn't do it better and more consistently.
 
I'm not an EM MD, but I do consult there, so I like to track this board. The whole NP preoccupation is on every board, but here's the thing...there are no NP only emergency departments or inpatient psych units or ORs. The simple fact of the matter is that we didn't go to school forever to deal with simple stuff and the VAST majority of what we see in any specialty is indeed the simple stuff. We're still needed for when that more complex stuff comes in.
 
Emergency Medicine should stop existing as an independent specialty.


Change my mind.
I'm been saying on here for 15 years that Emergency Physicians need to publish a strict EM Physician Bill of Rights, enforce it, or walk off the job. I've also been saying, as have a lot of other people that everyone who can should avoid EM, of if trapped in it, get out before you stroke out. Because the same recruiting lies told to you, were told to me 25 years ago and probably told 25 years before that. Hope is lost, that EM physicians will stand up for themselves collectively and enforce better treatment and working conditions. Without the will to strike, no change will occur and the will isn’t there. The lies have been too effective.

It's a specialty that is 100% dedicated to everything other than Emergency Physician wellness. The percentage dedicated to that is 0%. 100% abuse, 100% of the time. 100% to administrators. 100% to satisfy "the customers." 100% to make money for invisible, soul-less people at insurance companies and far away hospital-profiteers, in suits.

Emergency Medicine is God's work. You all should be proud of every minute you spent doing it. But you shouldn't spend a minute more doing it than you need to. Unless you are one of those rare breeds, born for EM and EM was born for you.

That is until and unless changes are made that ensure EM physician wellness. Not focus groups, not adding a "physician wellness" CME for you to do, not an extra meeting for you to go to on your day off. But truly making work-life quality acceptable to physicians. PTSD, and chronic low grade depression, shouldn't be a normal and expected side effect of any job. Especially not a job we all spent as long as we did to earn. But it will never happen. The trend is a tsunami in the other direction.

And now 4 years! God help us all.

I left EM when you were applying. Surely, you read my SDN posts back then?

I never for even one minute regretted leaving EM.

Enough about me. I don’t matter.

But you matter and I wish you the best and that you get out and on to a better life, where you're not abused and are appreciated. You deserve it.
 
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I'm been saying on here for 15 years that Emergency Physicians need to publish a strict EM Physician Bill of Rights, enforce it, or walk off the job. EM physicians will stand up for themselves collectively and enforce better treatment and working conditions.

This post does not align with reality.

EM is on an island. Look at the uniformity and power of the nursing lobby. Look at the power of hospital admin. Look at the omnipotence the insurance industry has. They. Literally. Own. Congress.

EM has no real lobby. ACEP is in many ways a wolf in sheep's clothing, infinitely more concerned about reimbursement (CMG needs) than physician wellbeing.

The attitude of the last several generations of EM docs sealed the deal. "Just clock in and clock out." The downside of that is obvious: it largely divorced EM from integration with hospital operations. It sealed the image of the EM doc being a cog that plugs into, and out of, the machine.

Em docs walking off the job en masse will only make the island smaller until the ocean of capitalism swallows it entirely.

I'm saying this as someone that also saw the writing on the wall, and left.
 
This post does not align with reality.

My post says:
...Hope is lost, that EM physicians will stand up for themselves collectively

You then edited my post (deleting the "Hope is lost” part) which changes its meaning to the exact opposite.

. IMG_2069.jpeg

My last edit of that post was 6:15 pm yesterday, yet you altered what I wrote this morning at 8:23 am.

Weird.
 
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Change my mind.

I have been an attending for close to 25 yrs. The 1st 5 years everything seemed great. This is my observation

1. Demand has not lessened. It ebbs and flows but what field/job doesn't have this. I would say demand even is higher. Before getting a Job in Austin was almost impossible. You could get one tomorrow in multiple places
2. Pay has not decreased. I do not know of any sites that pay less than what they did full timers in the past. I have seen increase in pay and sign on bonuses.
3. The job has gotten harder. When I first started, we had a good amount of control and respect. Currently it is just moving the meat and have less respect from hospital admins AND pts. But really, this is no different than other fields/jobs. Pts, maybe b/c of tik tock, feel entitled and experts in all fields.

Overall pay has increased but because the job is so much harder, it feels like you are being undercompensated. This likely will continue.

The AI and midlevel thing is overblown at least the immediate future. If AI is gonna take a field out, it will be Radiology first. If midlevels is an imminent threat, then Anesthesiology would be the 1st.

Gloom and doom in SDN because typically the unhappy are more vocal. I am not saying everything is great. But ask almost any other hospital based field and they will give you the same. Pay is good/better but the work is harder. Ask any surgeon what they get paid for a cholecystecomy and what global payment means.
 
As far as AI concerns go, I think a lot of the doomers on this board think emergency medicine exists in a vacuum. I think our unique requirements of mental acuity, physical capability, and emotional intelligence would make us more resistant to an AI take over. Most other white collar positions that require sitting in front of a computer crunching numbers would seem to be under threat. Consider even our mortal enemies the lawyers. It would seem we are far closer to AI being able analyze data and synthesize a rhetorical argument in favor of x or y. You would need true artificial general intelligence to be able to analyze imperfect data and pick up on the nuances of human interaction - stuff we do on the daily. I think we are a long way from that and a long way from having the infrastructure to support this at scale.

As far as NPs/PAs, I think they will continue to have a place in our specialty under our leadership but it is hard for me to see independent ED practice of NPs and PAs without drastic changes in their education process. There is a reason we spend 10,000+ hours in the hospital during residency. An experienced and well-trained APP can be pretty effective at moving the low to moderate acuity meat. Whenever there is something unexpectedly complex or a patient requires critical or life saving care I've noticed that even the best of them are fishes out of water. I was better able to recognize subtle presentations of critical illness right out of residency than a PA I worked with who had spent 25 years in high acuity and high volume settings and was overall an efficient and quality provider. Right now I work with a few APPs that are newly out of school. They are bright and willing to learn but in no universe would they be capable of running an ED independently.
 
As far as AI concerns go, I think a lot of the doomers on this board think emergency medicine exists in a vacuum. I think our unique requirements of mental acuity, physical capability, and emotional intelligence would make us more resistant to an AI take over. Most other white collar positions that require sitting in front of a computer crunching numbers would seem to be under threat. Consider even our mortal enemies the lawyers. It would seem we are far closer to AI being able analyze data and synthesize a rhetorical argument in favor of x or y. You would need true artificial general intelligence to be able to analyze imperfect data and pick up on the nuances of human interaction - stuff we do on the daily. I think we are a long way from that and a long way from having the infrastructure to support this at scale.

As far as NPs/PAs, I think they will continue to have a place in our specialty under our leadership but it is hard for me to see independent ED practice of NPs and PAs without drastic changes in their education process. There is a reason we spend 10,000+ hours in the hospital. An experienced and well-trained APP can be pretty effective at moving the low to moderate acuity meat. Whenever there is something unexpectedly complex or a patient requires critical or life saving care I've noticed that even the best of them are fishes out of water. I was better able to recognize subtle presentations of critical illness right out of residency than a PA I worked with who had spent 25 years in high acuity and high volume settings and was overall an efficient and quality provider. Right now I work with a few APPs that are newly out of school. They are bright and willing to learn but in no universe would they be capable of running an ED independently.
Good point. I am a minimalist and get pts out quickly b/c i don't order just to order. Example.

35 year old with the worse abd pain she ever had. I walk in and she is drinking sprite and looking at tik tock. I can tell you she has nothing going on. AI would take "worse pain" and do a full work up then consult surgery. Imagine the surgeon who has to come in at 3am to consult on possibly appy while she is slurping on her 3rd sprite.
 
Good point. I am a minimalist and get pts out quickly b/c i don't order just to order. Example.

35 year old with the worse abd pain she ever had. I walk in and she is drinking sprite and looking at tik tock. I can tell you she has nothing going on. AI would take "worse pain" and do a full work up then consult surgery. Imagine the surgeon who has to come in at 3am to consult on possibly appy while she is slurping on her 3rd sprite.

Exactly. People lie and exaggerate as well as participate in self denial and minimization. The EM gestalt that we develop from a combination of 7-8 years of intense learning and experience is what teaches us to recognize the difference between the neurotics, the bull****ters and the rugged farmers who have nothing wrong with them but are secretly about to have an MI. AI is a long way from capturing this, as are most APPs with less than 10-20 years of experience probably.
 
Good point. I am a minimalist and get pts out quickly b/c i don't order just to order. Example.

35 year old with the worse abd pain she ever had. I walk in and she is drinking sprite and looking at tik tock. I can tell you she has nothing going on. AI would take "worse pain" and do a full work up then consult surgery. Imagine the surgeon who has to come in at 3am to consult on possibly appy while she is slurping on her 3rd sprite.
Yes but did you CT her anyway? We both know it won’t show anything, but I think most would, myself included, due to our medicolegal environment and or nurse probably documented 10/10 pain
 
Yes but did you CT her anyway? We both know it won’t show anything, but I think most would, myself included, due to our medicolegal environment and or nurse probably documented 10/10 pain
I would also do minimal work. But nurses yeah document 10/10 pain. And when the nurses asked me why I scanned the patient obviously in no distress I'd be like, LOOK AT WHAT YOU DOCUMENTED
 
Exactly. People lie and exaggerate as well as participate in self denial and minimization. The EM gestalt that we develop from a combination of 7-8 years of intense learning and experience is what teaches us to recognize the difference between the neurotics, the bull****ters and the rugged farmers who have nothing wrong with them but are secretly about to have an MI. AI is a long way from capturing this, as are most APPs with less than 10-20 years of experience probably.

Just remember though kids, nobody's bull**** meter is perfectly calibrated.
 
Yes but did you CT her anyway? We both know it won’t show anything, but I think most would, myself included, due to our medicolegal environment and or nurse probably documented 10/10 pain
"pt drinking liquids and watching videos on phone during evaluation, abd non-tender"
 
Good point. I am a minimalist and get pts out quickly b/c i don't order just to order. Example.

35 year old with the worse abd pain she ever had. I walk in and she is drinking sprite and looking at tik tock. I can tell you she has nothing going on. AI would take "worse pain" and do a full work up then consult surgery. Imagine the surgeon who has to come in at 3am to consult on possibly appy while she is slurping on her 3rd sprite.
I actually disagree with you on this. One of the things that makes AI different from previous technologies is that you can actually train it on visual data. Feed it 10,000 interviews of patients and tell it which patients are in distress or not, and I guarantee it's going to be able to pick out the subtle visual cues indicating if "something is going on". It could be much more accurate than most of us given enough data and "training". It can even count respirations, look at facial expressions etc. Simultaneously while interviewing the patient it can review the chart for past visits/imaging and make a plan in real time while.
 
I actually disagree with you on this. One of the things that makes AI different from previous technologies is that you can actually train it on visual data. Feed it 10,000 interviews of patients and tell it which patients are in distress or not, and I guarantee it's going to be able to pick out the subtle visual cues indicating if "something is going on". It could be much more accurate than most of us given enough data and "training". It can even count respirations, look at facial expressions etc. Simultaneously while interviewing the patient it can review the chart for past visits/imaging and make a plan in real time while.
And will order an ekg because of a heart rate of 110 on a 15 year old with an open femur fracture who’s screaming bloody murder.
Yeah not going to replace clinical gestalt
 
I'm not an EM MD, but I do consult there, so I like to track this board. The whole NP preoccupation is on every board, but here's the thing...there are no NP only emergency departments or inpatient psych units or ORs. The simple fact of the matter is that we didn't go to school forever to deal with simple stuff and the VAST majority of what we see in any specialty is indeed the simple stuff. We're still needed for when that more complex stuff comes in.
Indeed there are noctor only EDs. Recent research had a pretty high number which i doubted but these indeed exist. Mostly rural places so no one really cares but they do exist.
 
Indeed there are noctor only EDs. Recent research had a pretty high number which i doubted but these indeed exist. Mostly rural places so no one really cares but they do exist.
I wonder how rural because I get unsolicited offers in my state for coverage for places 3-4 hours outside of a major transfer center.
 
I'm not an EM MD, but I do consult there, so I like to track this board. The whole NP preoccupation is on every board, but here's the thing...there are no NP only emergency departments or inpatient psych units or ORs. The simple fact of the matter is that we didn't go to school forever to deal with simple stuff and the VAST majority of what we see in any specialty is indeed the simple stuff. We're still needed for when that more complex stuff comes in.

Yeah, noctor-only departments do exist, bro.
They should not.
 
Emergency Medicine should stop existing as an independent specialty.

With the announcement from the ACGME pushing our specialty to a 4 year residency, we all should take a moment to reflect on our state of affairs and admit that the experiment of making EM independent in the house of medicine has failed. We have had about 55 years of this experiment since the University of Cincinnati opened the first residency to show the definitive need for our speciality, and despite being ABEM certified, I still struggle with to truly justify our existence.

This is just 100% wrong. ER's and ER docs will exist because 1) people want them, 2) hospitals will fund them, and

3) find me ONE NON-ER doc willing to staff an ER 24/7/365. They don't really exist. And the ones that do in podunk 'merica do a terrible job. I know you wrote above that you work with IM and FP but there is scant evidence this is a normal model in the US. It's exceedingly rare.

The role of the current ER is safe. Billing might change, expectations might change, but people will demand a health care service that is available at a moments notice.
 
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