Hourly income per specialty

[7331poas]

But even the Bureau of Labor says $212,000 average for general and family practice ?

Maybe you're just way above the average!

bureau of labor seems to be very inaccurate at estimating physician wages imo.

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[Mass Effect]

I want to know who all these surgeons working <60 hours per week are and whether they can hook me up

They're doing outpatient hernia repairs.

 

[efle]

bureau of labor seems to be very inaccurate at estimating physician wages imo.

Doesn't it get all its data directly off tax paperwork though? I think more likely that the other sources are inflated by response bias, with above-average earners more willing to report their earnings

Edit: Looks like it's actually off their own survey, but they say their standard error is only 1%

 

[CidHighwind]

Doesn't it get all its data directly off tax paperwork though? I think more likely that the other sources are inflated by response bias, with above-average earners more willing to report their earnings

Edit: Looks like it's actually off their own survey, but they say their standard error is only 1%

MGMA is what’s used to negotiate contracts.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Too low?

For the stuff they deal with, yes its too low. 82$ an hour.

 

[Greenberg702]

This is a really cool study to put together. My main issue with this is that the hours worked/week (seemingly obtained from the AAMC Careers in Medicine Page) just don't seem very accurate based on other, specialty-specific surveys.

For example, they have anesthesiologists working more hours/week than neurosurgeons (61 vs 58). Does anyone actually believe that? Tons of people quit neurosurgery to go INTO anesthesia/rads/etc. because they see how much better the lifestyle is, both as a resident and later as an attending (even if you run away into private practice spine to do ACDFs all day).

There are also some quirks unique to certain fields. For example, the average radiology job offers 10-12 weeks of vacation, so while they may work 55 hours/week, they're simply not working 3 months out of the year. Overall, this seems pretty accurate though. If you adjust neurosurgery upward (to be more in line with thoracic), the rankings would be 1. Derm 2. Ortho 3. Radiology 4. GI, which passes the smell test.

 

[efle]

This is a really cool study to put together. My main issue with this is that the hours worked/week (seemingly obtained from the AAMC Careers in Medicine Page) just don't seem very accurate based on other, specialty-specific surveys.

For example, they have anesthesiologists working more hours/week than neurosurgeons (61 vs 58). Does anyone actually believe that? Tons of people quit neurosurgery to go INTO anesthesia/rads/etc. because they see how much better the lifestyle is, both as a resident and later as an attending (even if you run away into private practice spine to do ACDFs all day).

There are also some quirks unique to certain fields. For example, the average radiology job offers 10-12 weeks of vacation, so while they may work 55 hours/week, they're simply not working 3 months out of the year. Overall, this seems pretty accurate though. If you adjust neurosurgery upward (to be more in line with thoracic), the rankings would be 1. Derm 2. Ortho 3. Radiology 4. GI, which passes the smell test.

I think the JAMA study they pull the neuro number accidentally added a negative sign on the lower bound. Seen this misquoted a few times.

 

[biglurker]

I'm bored in my callroom at work, so I'll chime in my own numbers.

I certainly am just n=1, but as a hospitalist (nocturnist), my base pay is 2062 for 12 hour shift = $171.83/hr. My full-time shift requirement is 10 shifts a month.
I do also pick up a few moonlighting shifts/month, one hospital pays $225/hr, another hospital pays $250/hr. They usually offer $300/hr if the hospital has a "last minute" coverage need.

My total pretax income exceeded north of $500K last calendar year from working, on average about 17 to 18 shifts a month.
This is also not including benefits, such as employer contributions to 401K (it is $19000 this year)

The caveat I have to give, is hospitalist pay is extremely variable depending on geography and setting (academic vs community). I have friends working as a day hospitalist in one of the Harvard system hospitals making <200K at around $90/hr on the teaching service. The trade off for them is they can show up at 9AM, round with their team, and be home at 2PM if they wanted to, and live in Boston

 

[907914]

10 shifts

Ohmuhgawd

9AM, round with their team, and be home at 2PM

Who cares about the decreased pay, dem hours got me like...

 

[Merely]

That’s $200/hr. You can do as well or better in almost every specialty.

This is not correct

 

[DrStephenStrange]

I'm bored in my callroom at work, so I'll chime in my own numbers.

I certainly am just n=1, but as a hospitalist (nocturnist), my base pay is 2062 for 12 hour shift = $171.83/hr. My full-time shift requirement is 10 shifts a month.
I do also pick up a few moonlighting shifts/month, one hospital pays $225/hr, another hospital pays $250/hr. They usually offer $300/hr if the hospital has a "last minute" coverage need.

My total pretax income exceeded north of $500K last calendar year from working, on average about 17 to 18 shifts a month.
This is also not including benefits, such as employer contributions to 401K (it is $19000 this year)

The caveat I have to give, is hospitalist pay is extremely variable depending on geography and setting (academic vs community). I have friends working as a day hospitalist in one of the Harvard system hospitals making hr on the teaching service. The trade off for them is they can show up at 9AM, round with their team, and be home at 2PM if they wanted to, and live in Boston

Man, that sounds really nice.

 

[Bacchus]

Man, that sounds really nice.

It is, but long-term likely won't be sustainable.

 

[Lawpy]

The caveat I have to give, is hospitalist pay is extremely variable depending on geography and setting (academic vs community). I have friends working as a day hospitalist in one of the Harvard system hospitals making <200K at around $90/hr on the teaching service. The trade off for them is they can show up at 9AM, round with their team, and be home at 2PM if they wanted to, and live in Boston

Since we're on a thread about physician salary, could we get a brief summary as to why academic pay is generally lower than private practice/community based settings? not sure whether it's because resources are diverted elsewhere to teaching/research/admin that clinical time is lower or whether it's because academic places just simply pay less (for what reasons)?

 

[libertyyne]

Since we're on a thread about physician salary, could we get a brief summary as to why academic pay is generally lower than private practice/community based settings? not sure whether it's because resources are diverted elsewhere to teaching/research/admin that clinical time is lower or whether it's because academic places just simply pay less (for what reasons)?

productivity. You see less patients, you bill for less, you get paid less. Students make you inefficient so you end up seeing less patients. Also jobs may be in desirable places to live so more people can apply to the same job, and in turn may drive down salaried positions as it is easier to fill .
Lastly skim off of productivity to compensate academic positions on the teaching service and to give administrative time to the program directors and heads of divisions.

 

[CidHighwind]

Since we're on a thread about physician salary, could we get a brief summary as to why academic pay is generally lower than private practice/community based settings? not sure whether it's because resources are diverted elsewhere to teaching/research/admin that clinical time is lower or whether it's because academic places just simply pay less (for what reasons)?

Because in academics, you essentially let the residents do all the actual work, while you’re there to listen to and sign off on the plans, listen though the med student present before the resident takes over, go on random tangents that may be educational, do some random pimping, and go to meetings and write papers. Much easier job, or so I’m told.

 

[deleted573262]

Because in academics, you essentially let the residents do all the actual work, while you’re there to listen to and sign off on the plans, listen though the med student present before the resident takes over, go on tangents and do some random pimping, and go to meetings and write papers. Much easier job, or so I’m told.

Easier job with greater misery.

 

[emergentmd]

The numbers for EM and thus likely most specialties are completely wrong. I am not sure where the data is coming from but whoever is crunching it made a big mistake with data collection or pocessing.

Very few EM docs work more than 40 hrs a week. 46hrs wk is like 190hrs/month. I bet <5% of boarded EM docs make Less than $150/hr.

EM at 320K/yr seems alittle low but believable. Most I know make >$200/hr and to hit 320k/yr work about 130hrs/mo or about 30hr a wk.

I do know a few who works 40 hrs a wk at $225/hr which got them close to 500K.

 

[CidHighwind]

The numbers for EM and thus likely most specialties are completely wrong. I am not sure where the data is coming from but whoever is crunching it made a big mistake with data collection or pocessing.

Very few EM docs work more than 40 hrs a week. 46hrs wk is like 190hrs/month. I bet <5% of boarded EM docs make Less than $150/hr.

EM at 320K/yr seems alittle low but believable. Most I know make >$200/hr and to hit 320k/yr work about 130hrs/mo or about 30hr a wk.

I do know a few who works 40 hrs a wk at $225/hr which got them close to 500K.

The thing about EM is that we know how much they make and it’s well documented. These surveys don’t ever show how derm and ortho people are clearing close to 1 million as attendings or GI docs with their own suite get 700-800k+. I get why no one likes admitting it though. When Rads was honest about making 800k+ they cut their salaries, so now every doctor makes “200-300k, 350k with good payor mix and a lot of luck”.

 

[driveahead123]

Is urology STEP1 average around 237? I can't seem to find a figure or any sources reporting it online.

 

[libertyyne]

Is urology STEP1 average around 237? I can't seem to find a figure or any sources reporting it online.

 

[efle]

View attachment 281222

I think thats step 2 ? Mid 240s step1 with an ~85% match rate overall is my recollection but I've no idea where I saw it

 

[efle]

I'm bored in my callroom at work, so I'll chime in my own numbers.

I certainly am just n=1, but as a hospitalist (nocturnist), my base pay is 2062 for 12 hour shift = $171.83/hr. My full-time shift requirement is 10 shifts a month.
I do also pick up a few moonlighting shifts/month, one hospital pays $225/hr, another hospital pays $250/hr. They usually offer $300/hr if the hospital has a "last minute" coverage need.

My total pretax income exceeded north of $500K last calendar year from working, on average about 17 to 18 shifts a month.
This is also not including benefits, such as employer contributions to 401K (it is $19000 this year)

The caveat I have to give, is hospitalist pay is extremely variable depending on geography and setting (academic vs community). I have friends working as a day hospitalist in one of the Harvard system hospitals making <200K at around $90/hr on the teaching service. The trade off for them is they can show up at 9AM, round with their team, and be home at 2PM if they wanted to, and live in Boston

Thanks for contributing, this kind of detailed breakdown is really hard for us to find on google.

Would you consider yourself an outlier at all for doing 50-55 hrs and often overnight or last minute shifts? Or would you say you're pretty representative of a big swath of hospitalists?

 

[efle]

The numbers for EM and thus likely most specialties are completely wrong. I am not sure where the data is coming from but whoever is crunching it made a big mistake with data collection or pocessing.

Very few EM docs work more than 40 hrs a week. 46hrs wk is like 190hrs/month. I bet <5% of boarded EM docs make Less than $150/hr.

EM at 320K/yr seems alittle low but believable. Most I know make >$200/hr and to hit 320k/yr work about 130hrs/mo or about 30hr a wk.

I do know a few who works 40 hrs a wk at $225/hr which got them close to 500K.

Good to know. Hopefully most of the specialties have similarly inflated hours so the trend is still informative. The general pattern of surgeons = workaholics and classically "lifestyle" specialties at least seems to hold up in their data.

 

[libertyyne]

I think thats step 2 ? Mid 240s step1 with an ~85% match rate overall is my recollection but I've no idea where I saw it

step 1 scores are the rows.

 

[efle]

step 1 scores are the rows.

Looks like ~245 median was spot on

 

[BiggiePow]

View attachment 281222

What resource is this?

 

[Sleepingdoc]

Just because one person or a few people makes a lot of money in a particular specialty does not mean everyone will, it does not mean that you wont either... I am just saying that some of these salaries that i see on this board seem overinflated. I mean this is a board that everyone makes a 40 on their MCAT, 250 on step, so it is not out of the possiblity.. If you make that much money, good for you... but it does not mean that thats the norm.

 

[Splenda88]

EM is the best specialty in medicine... You can work 10 shifts/month (2.5 days/week) and still make 250k+/yr.

 

[Deecee2DO]

Interesting to see IM all the way down there. I thought hospitalists made comparable to neurologists, pm&r, nephrologists etc.

youd put nephro in the same income category as Neuro and PMR? Thought nephro made crap

 

[DrStephenStrange]

You're right. I just didn't wanna write another sentence.
Honestly Neuro seems like a "better" deal than IM. You can still live the hospitalist life if you want (7 on 7 off as a neurohospitalist), go outpatient where salaries are higher, you're a "consult" and avoid some of the social work bs IM has to deal with, and you can try for pain medicine if you want more $.

But no one wants to do a neuro residency though lol.

 

[Prehealth1011]

But no one wants to do a neuro residency though lol.

I guess Neuroanatomy really left a big scar in all of us

 

[Deecee2DO]

But no one wants to do a neuro residency though lol.

exactly lol after you find the lesion management is pretty limited lol i think thats one of the reasons I dont like it but thats me personally

 

[CidHighwind]

Just because one person or a few people makes a lot of money in a particular specialty does not mean everyone will, it does not mean that you wont either... I am just saying that some of these salaries that i see on this board seem overinflated. I mean this is a board that everyone makes a 40 on their MCAT, 250 on step, so it is not out of the possiblity.. If you make that much money, good for you... but it does not mean that thats the norm.

True, but then in that respect a large number of people here want to work at MGH or UCSF which has notoriously low salaries, and most of the attendings people here know are academics. Pretty much every doctor in private practice says that the surveys are somewhat low, and it makes more sense to believe that the data is skewed than random doctor with one practice just so happens to be in the 90th percentile.

 

[BoolaHI]

A huge draw for hospitalist work is time off. It's common to have 26-28 weeks off a year.

I counted both my W and Ds time off (both are hospital employed intensivist) and they both have averaged just about 25 weeks off a year.

 

[libertyyne]

True, but then in that respect a large number of people here want to work at MGH or UCSF which has notoriously low salaries, and most of the attendings people here know are academics. Pretty much every doctor in private practice says that the surveys are somewhat low, and it makes more sense to believe that the data is skewed than random doctor with one practice just so happens to be in the 90th percentile.

The mgma data is real data . Data employers use to hire people. Unless you are in private self employed or group practice. Those numbers are hard to come by, but are in all likelihood not mind blowingly different considering you have to pay for overhead and other expenses , and those gigs are harder to come by considering hospital employed groups are really the norm.

 

[CidHighwind]

The mgma data is real data . Data employers use to hire people. Unless you are in private self employed or group practice. Those numbers are hard to come by, but are in all likelihood not mind blowingly different considering you have to pay for overhead and other expenses , and those gigs are harder to come by considering hospital employed groups are really the norm.

Well again that depends on the group and specialty. For IM yes most people work for hospitals, for FM, not necessarily. The doctors I asked were a bit older and were partners, so that’s probably where the difference is. Even with overhead, partners earn quite a bit more than MGMA median.

 

[deleted547631]

I'm bored in my callroom at work, so I'll chime in my own numbers.

I certainly am just n=1, but as a hospitalist (nocturnist), my base pay is 2062 for 12 hour shift = $171.83/hr. My full-time shift requirement is 10 shifts a month.
I do also pick up a few moonlighting shifts/month, one hospital pays $225/hr, another hospital pays $250/hr. They usually offer $300/hr if the hospital has a "last minute" coverage need.

My total pretax income exceeded north of $500K last calendar year from working, on average about 17 to 18 shifts a month.
This is also not including benefits, such as employer contributions to 401K (it is $19000 this year)

The caveat I have to give, is hospitalist pay is extremely variable depending on geography and setting (academic vs community). I have friends working as a day hospitalist in one of the Harvard system hospitals making <200K at around $90/hr on the teaching service. The trade off for them is they can show up at 9AM, round with their team, and be home at 2PM if they wanted to, and live in Boston

Thank you for chiming in! Most people think internists can't rake it in. You absolutely can if you're willing to work hard and look outside the box. You're proof of that!

 

[BoolaHI]

Just to provide a bit of back background for my wife’s intensivist position-as I did the math. It comes out to roughly 12-13 nights a month, each a twelve hour shift (but she receives a four hour night shift differential and she only works night) and it comes out close to $230 an hour or mid 400s.

 

[nimbus]

The mgma data is real data . Data employers use to hire people. Unless you are in private self employed or group practice. Those numbers are hard to come by, but are in all likelihood not mind blowingly different considering you have to pay for overhead and other expenses , and those gigs are harder to come by considering hospital employed groups are really the norm.

MGMA numbers are after expenses and overhead but before taxes. Also hospital employed is not the norm in most specialties.

 

[nimbus]

Just to provide a bit of back background for my wife’s intensivist position-as I did the math. It comes out to roughly 12-13 nights a month, each a twelve hour shift (but she receives a four hour night shift differential and she only works night) and it comes out close to $230 an hour or mid 400s.

Damn that’s a lot of nights! Is hers a nocturnist position?

 

[libertyyne]

MGMA numbers are after expenses and overhead but before taxes. Also hospital employed is not the norm in most specialties.

Could you please cite your source ? I cant seem to find anything that says a majority of physicians are practice owners.

 

[nimbus]

View attachment 281898
View attachment 281899


Could you please cite your source ? I cant seem to find anything that says a majority of physicians are practice owners.

I didn’t say the majority of physicians are practice owners. I said hospital employment is not the norm in most specialties, e.g. all surgical specialties, all IM subspecialties, peds, FM, EM, anesthesia, radiology, path, derm, neuro, PMR, etc,etc.

 

[BoolaHI]

Damn that’s a lot of nights! Is hers a nocturnist position?

Yup.

 

[libertyyne]

I didn’t say the majority of physicians are practice owners. I said hospital employment is not the norm in most specialties.

so is being hired as an employee the norm or is being a partner a norm? Id like to know if the MGMA data is true. It seems crazy that there is a hidden cabal of physicians who also are a majority of physicians who earn more than the MGMA data would suggest.

 

[nimbus]

so is being hired to as an employee the norm or is being a partner a norm? Id like to know if the MGMA data is true.

I can only speak for my specialty which is anesthesia. They are both normal. Many examples of both and the employed positions (kaiser, Mayo, etc) are typically benchmarked to MGMA. The thing we should all be concerned about is the entry of Wall Street and private equity (Mednax, Envision, and Welsh Carson property) into medicine. They are screwing both doctors and patients. I would much rather work for a local hospital than a PE owned “private practice”. It is capitalism run amok.

As for MGMA, it is spot on for my specialty in my geographic area.

 

[libertyyne]

I can only speak for my specialty which is anesthesia. They are both normal. Many examples of both and the employed positions (kaiser, Mayo, etc) are typically benchmarked to MGMA. The thing we should all be concerned about is the entry of Wall Street and private equity into medicine. They are screwing both doctors and patients. I would much rather work for a local hospital than a PE owned “private practice”. It is capitalism run amok.

As for MGMA, it is spot on for my specialty in my geographic area.

Thanks for the input, So the 2 standard deviation above median salaries should not be expected to be the norm. I mean if making 200 dollars an hour as a nocturnist after three years of training is the norm , there is no reason to excel in school.

 

[nimbus]

Thanks for the input, So the 2 standard deviation about median salaries should not be expected to be the norm. I mean if making 200 dollars an hour as a nocturnist after three years of training is the norm , there is no reason to excel in school.

Excel for the sake of excelling. It’s more fun to do something you are good at. Or excel so you can match ortho

 

[BoolaHI]

Thanks for the input, So the 2 standard deviation above median salaries should not be expected to be the norm. I mean if making 200 dollars an hour as a nocturnist after three years of training is the norm , there is no reason to excel in school.
[/QUOT
Huh, except for maybe a high level
of competency and taking a profound sense of pride in both your training and profession. I went to YLS and I never thought, hey, some ambulance chaser working on contingency may make more money than me, so what’s the practical use of chasing excellence...

 

[libertyyne]

easy there. Not trying to offend. I am sure there are plenty of IM Docs that excelled at school. But in general the data points towards the most competitive specialties being the relatively well compensated ones. But in the real world no one cares how well you did in medical school.

 

[deleted859689]

Guess gas is looking pretty good.