Hours required for PharmD vs my BS...

[Pilot]

There was a thread that was closed due to name calling, but it brought up an interesting thought in my mind. I went to pharmacy school in Oklahoma at Southwestern, graduating with a BS Pharm in 1997. The total number of hours I obtained in pharmacy courses was 98 credit hours. Of course, this amount is only "PHARM" courses (those only available to enrolled students in the School of Pharmacy). This does not include any prerequisites or other courses required for graduation outside of pharmacy school (ie exercise courses, immunology, biochemistry, etc.) This was a standard 5 year program (2 years prereqs, and 3 years of pharm school).

Now, when comparing to the new Pharm.D. program at SWOSU, I find that courses that were previously prerequisites are now "included" into the pharmacy coursework, although they are not exclusive to pharmacy students (ie still general enrollment). Now granted, there is an extra semester (4 months) of rotations tacked on at the end, but overall the actual credit hours of "PHARM" courses is a mere 7 hours - if you subtract out the course which were previously prereqs.

Now before all the naysayers come out - I will admit the courses do not match up "name by name". For example, I had one PHARM Biochem course (3 hours), and two semesters of PHARM Medicinal Chem courses (3 and 4 hours respectively) for a total of 10 hours. In the new program there is a two semester course called BioPharmaceutics (3 and 3 hours respectively) and only one semester of MedChem (5 hours) for a total of 11 hours. I had other courses which aren't taught now (Current Therapeutics), and obviously some courses are listed now which were not on my transcript.

Total Difference : 7 hours in PHARM coursework
16 hours ( 4 months) of rotations.

Just wanted to clarify for those persons wondering what the actual courseload difference was.

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[BME103]

Exactly. They just change the name of the course but the subject is still the same. Many of the pre-reqs were exactly the same courses that are taught in pharmacy school. It is really a complete waste of time.

 

[SomeGuy]

A good post. In Canada, there's a bit of debate upon whether to switch entirely to a completely PharmD program. The current BScPhm system is actually based upon the standards of the ACPE's PharmD requirements. The accreditation requirements call for a 5 year program (most (all?) programs being 1+4), but with a somewhat substantial course overload in each year. A regular university student would take 5.0 credits, whereas a first year pharmacy student would take 7.0. There are also 4 months of rotations. So, the only substantial difference would be the shortened placements/clerkships/rotations.

One thing to consider about the US' change, is that students used to graduate with an intern license in most states, and end up practicing for a number of hours at as many sites as they liked and eventually got their full license, while getting paid. Nowadays, they rotate among a number of sites, and get to pay to do it, but graduate (in most states I think) with a full license.

 

[ForeverPharm]

There was a thread that was closed due to name calling, but it brought up an interesting thought in my mind. I went to pharmacy school in Oklahoma at Southwestern, graduating with a BS Pharm in 1997. The total number of hours I obtained in pharmacy courses was 98 credit hours. Of course, this amount is only "PHARM" courses (those only available to enrolled students in the School of Pharmacy). This does not include any prerequisites or other courses required for graduation outside of pharmacy school (ie exercise courses, immunology, biochemistry, etc.) This was a standard 5 year program (2 years prereqs, and 3 years of pharm school).

Now, when comparing to the new Pharm.D. program at SWOSU, I find that courses that were previously prerequisites are now "included" into the pharmacy coursework, although they are not exclusive to pharmacy students (ie still general enrollment). Now granted, there is an extra semester (4 months) of rotations tacked on at the end, but overall the actual credit hours of "PHARM" courses is a mere 7 hours - if you subtract out the course which were previously prereqs.

Now before all the naysayers come out - I will admit the courses do not match up "name by name". For example, I had one PHARM Biochem course (3 hours), and two semesters of PHARM Medicinal Chem courses (3 and 4 hours respectively) for a total of 10 hours. In the new program there is a two semester course called BioPharmaceutics (3 and 3 hours respectively) and only one semester of MedChem (5 hours) for a total of 11 hours. I had other courses which aren't taught now (Current Therapeutics), and obviously some courses are listed now which were not on my transcript.

Total Difference : 7 hours in PHARM coursework
16 hours ( 4 months) of rotations.

Just wanted to clarify for those persons wondering what the actual courseload difference was.

How many hours of pharmacy practice did you need in order to graduate?
now you need about 1500 hours in california at least? (IPPE & APPE)

 

[Pilot]

How many hours of pharmacy practice did you need in order to graduate?
now you need about 1500 hours in california at least? (IPPE & APPE)

We could accumulate hours while in school, and if my memory serves correctly the school rotations counted at 500 hours (rotations + pharm lab courses), and 500 had to be accumulated outside of school prior to be able to sit for the NAPLEX exam. This is now 1500 hours in Oklahoma, all of which is accumulated in pharm school, thus not requiring any work whatsoever outside of school.

 

[ForeverPharm]

We could accumulate hours while in school, and if my memory serves correctly the school rotations counted at 500 hours (rotations + pharm lab courses), and 500 had to be accumulated outside of school prior to be able to sit for the NAPLEX exam. This is now 1500 hours in Oklahoma, all of which is accumulated in pharm school, thus not requiring any work whatsoever outside of school.

You still need 1000 hrs in order to take NAPLEX, but for cali boards you need all 1500 hrs.
But how did you get to 7 hrs of extra course work? Now the average course work needed to graduate (at pharmacy school) is 197 units (semesters).
If you take 50hrs out for rotation it becomes 147. And if you take all the biochemistry, Micro, Physiology, anatomy and their lab out (they are about 20 depending on the school) its 127.
you point out that your class needed 98 of Pharmacy courses for graduation. There is still a difference of at least 27 credits. this is more than 6 classes (4cr per class average). based on LECOM's program.
Where is the rest, if I may ask?
your current capability as a pharmacist is honestly respected. after all experience can make up for many courses. but don't there must be a reason for offering a PharmD degree?
what is your reasoning?

regards
foreverpharm

 

[MacGyver]

The bottom line is that EVERY HEALTH PROFESSION, including doctors, is the result of nothing mroe than degree inflation.

Doctors were the first ones to do it, and in the decades following, EVEYR SINGLE HEALTHCARE JOB has started to follow suit.

Optometrists did it
Pharmacists did it
Chiropractors did it
Physical therapists did it

NOw the freaking NURSES want the doctoral degree too (see the new DNP programs)

Its all BS that has NOTHING to do with anything other than trying to look good to the public.

 

[dgroulx]

I'd just like to say that you learn much more while on rotations. I've only completed 4 months of rotations so far, but I've learned to apply the knowledge from school and I feel that I am really growing in my practical knowledge.

Until now, I never understood why medical school was only 2 years + 2 years of rotations, while pharmacy school was 3 + 1. You really need the "hands on" experience.

 

[Pilot]

You still need 1000 hrs in order to take NAPLEX, but for cali boards you need all 1500 hrs.
But how did you get to 7 hrs of extra course work? Now the average course work needed to graduate (at pharmacy school) is 197 units (semesters).
If you take 50hrs out for rotation it becomes 147. And if you take all the biochemistry, Micro, Physiology, anatomy and their lab out (they are about 20 depending on the school) its 127.
you point out that your class needed 98 of Pharmacy courses for graduation. There is still a difference of at least 27 credits. this is more than 6 classes (4cr per class average). based on LECOM's program.
Where is the rest, if I may ask?
your current capability as a pharmacist is honestly respected. after all experience can make up for many courses. but don't there must be a reason for offering a PharmD degree?
what is your reasoning?

regards
foreverpharm

Well, I type a nice liong response, but my laptop went "back button" inadvertantly, and my response is not gone. Short answer to your discrepancy is I think your 197 units includes prereqs, otherwise the avg over 4 semesters would be nearly 25 credit hours over the 4 years. If the 197 units is averaged over the 2+4 (6 year) degree, the average per semester is a more reasonable 16 credit hours.

BTW, when I graduated from pharmacy school, I had a total of 218 credit hours.

As for the ultimate reason why I think the schools have gone to mandatory PharmD is purely economic (for the schools). They are able to extract and extra year of tuition from each class. At SWOSU, this is over $700,000 per year extra in tuition. Just my opinion (as always, I could be wrong).

 

[All4MyDaughter]

Kentucky requires at MINIMUM 61 hours of pre-reqs.
Anatomy and Microbiology are considered pre-reqs and are NOT part of the PharmD curriculum.
Biochemistry is not a required pre-req, but the physiological biochem class that the pharm students take is not open to the general university population. It is a pharm-specific class.

The professional curriculum is 158 hours.
40 of that is 4th year rotations.
There are ten months of rotations.

Most of the semesters are 19 hours.
Second semester of first year is 23 hours.

COP UK

 

[ButlerPharm.D.]

The reason all of the schools have gone Pharm.D. is because ACPE mandated it.

 

[MacGyver]

The reason all of the schools have gone Pharm.D. is because ACPE mandated it.

And ACPE mandated it only because they wanted to make more money and increase their perception in the eyes of the public.

no evidence that today's pharmacists are better than the ones with BS degrees...

hey its the same way for medicine, dentistry, optometry, psychologists, physical therapits, etc. Degree inflation is rampant in the healthcare industry.

 

[sdn1977]

And ACPE mandated it only because they wanted to make more money and increase their perception in the eyes of the public.

no evidence that today's pharmacists are better than the ones with BS degrees...

hey its the same way for medicine, dentistry, optometry, psychologists, physical therapits, etc. Degree inflation is rampant in the healthcare industry.

You are so wrong! The PharmD degree actually was in place before the BS along with the PhG, PhC & PharmM degrees (all actual pharmacy or apothecary degrees) in the mid-late 1800's. This was when each state could determine their own educational requirements & some allowed the pharmacists to be licensed by apprenticeship.

The first bachelor's degree in pharmacy was actually the B.Sc. which was awarded by the University of Wisconsin in 1892. The BS degree became the standard degree with defined requirements in 1934 when the ACPE was put in place. In 1938, the ACPE no longer allowed any PharmD's awarded.

In 1950, USC became the first pharmacy school to bring it back. This was because WWII and the years after started a huge rise in drug development & more education was required to keep up with the new knowledge base.

This started a 50 year discussion of how much to incorporate clinical curriculum with basic sciences - both of which are required to understand drug mechanisms, kinetics, dynamics, etc....It required more units & more time & for some universities, that required a degree change to allow students to stay long enough.

The ACPE's purpose is to define and maintain standards of education of pharmacists. The last 50 years has shown an extraordinary rise in new drug technologies and classes. The motivation is not money - it is to educate those people who have to translate the sophisticated information of drugs and devices to the lay public & to those other health professions who occasionally deal with drugs outside their normal areas of practice.

For all those who are comparing units and hours....that was not the point at all. Some schools incorporated externships & internships. Some states reduced the #of hours of internship required for licensure. There was no uniform change - it had to do with content. When the PharmD was adopted in 2000 - ACPE allowed a number of different mechanisms to accomplish it. That is why you have some accelerated programs, some 0-6 programs, some 4 year, etc...The point was to standardize education - not to make money! The ACPE is looking ahead again to provide new standards which incorporate expanded scopes of practice as well.

Why are you so sensitive about a degree which you don't have nor want?

 

[VCU07]

There was a thread that was closed due to name calling, but it brought up an interesting thought in my mind. I went to pharmacy school in Oklahoma at Southwestern, graduating with a BS Pharm in 1997. The total number of hours I obtained in pharmacy courses was 98 credit hours. Of course, this amount is only "PHARM" courses (those only available to enrolled students in the School of Pharmacy). This does not include any prerequisites or other courses required for graduation outside of pharmacy school (ie exercise courses, immunology, biochemistry, etc.) This was a standard 5 year program (2 years prereqs, and 3 years of pharm school).

Now, when comparing to the new Pharm.D. program at SWOSU, I find that courses that were previously prerequisites are now "included" into the pharmacy coursework, although they are not exclusive to pharmacy students (ie still general enrollment). Now granted, there is an extra semester (4 months) of rotations tacked on at the end, but overall the actual credit hours of "PHARM" courses is a mere 7 hours - if you subtract out the course which were previously prereqs.

Now before all the naysayers come out - I will admit the courses do not match up "name by name". For example, I had one PHARM Biochem course (3 hours), and two semesters of PHARM Medicinal Chem courses (3 and 4 hours respectively) for a total of 10 hours. In the new program there is a two semester course called BioPharmaceutics (3 and 3 hours respectively) and only one semester of MedChem (5 hours) for a total of 11 hours. I had other courses which aren't taught now (Current Therapeutics), and obviously some courses are listed now which were not on my transcript.

Total Difference : 7 hours in PHARM coursework
16 hours ( 4 months) of rotations.

Just wanted to clarify for those persons wondering what the actual courseload difference was.

For the class coming in 2008 vcu/mcv will require 90 undergrad hrs, giving major preference to those who have gone all 4yrs. So, your arguement will be changing the next cpl of yrs.

 

[kwizard]

For all those who are comparing units and hours....that was not the point at all. Some schools incorporated externships & internships. Some states reduced the #of hours of internship required for licensure. There was no uniform change - it had to do with content. When the PharmD was adopted in 2000 - ACPE allowed a number of different mechanisms to accomplish it. That is why you have some accelerated programs, some 0-6 programs, some 4 year, etc...The point was to standardize education - not to make money! The ACPE is looking ahead again to provide new standards which incorporate expanded scopes of practice as well.

Great Post!!! We must be reading the same materials. There is a great historical perspective on AACP website reviewing many of the points you raise (http://www.aacp.org/search/search.asp and click on Dana Hammer's Keynote presentation).

Another great review about our evolution and continued need to growth is listed below. It is kind of humbling to figure out how far we still have to go as many of the issues expressed in this one are similar to many of the problems we face today. The main difference is that more members of the profession have become advocates for continued growth of the profession (full text for this one is hard to come by):

1: J Clin Pharmacol. 1981 Apr;21(4):195-7.

History of clinical pharmacy and clinical pharmacology.

Miller RR.

The purpose of the Symposium on Clinical Pharmacy and Clinical Pharmacology is to describe the present and future functional roles of clinical pharmacists and clinical pharmacologists in drug research, professional education, and patient care. Clinical pharmacy is a relatively new professional discipline, being only about 15 years old. This new breed of pharmacists is patient rather than drug product oriented. The discipline arose out of dissatisfaction with old practice norms and the pressing need for a health professional with a comprehensive knowledge of the therapeutic use of drugs. The clinical pharmacy movement began at the University of Michigan in the early 1960s, but much of the pioneering work was done by David Burkholder, Paul Parker, and Charles Walton at the University of Kentucky in the latter part of the 1960s. Clinical pharmacology is a professional discipline that combines basic pharmacology and clinical medicine. Its development began in the early 1950s, primarily as a result of the efforts of Harry Gold. It has had a slower growth than clinical pharmacy but it has made many important contributions to our knowledge of human pharmacology and the rational use of drugs.

Publication Types:
Historical Article

PMID: 7016931 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]

 

[ForeverPharm]

This is so interesting.
I know for fact that many of middle eastern universities award a doctor of pharmacy degree. And that has been for a while. I know a pharmacist who recieved his doctor of pharmacy, from translation, degree about 35 years ago.
the curiculum in one country- IRAN, is the same for the first 3 years for all dentistry, pharmacy and medicine students. they actually share classes. So it is the same as here, now. with exception that they start after high school. it takes 7 years for MD, 7 years for dentistry and 6 years for pharmacy degrees. So it was a little strange to hear about the BS degree offered in the US, considering the capabilities that the schools posses.

 

[bananaface]

For all those who are comparing units and hours....that was not the point at all.

I agree. Content wise, the BS programs were variable. Some people got a well-rounded education, while others were limited by a career track oriented focus. It's hard to compare the non-standardized BS curricula to today's PharmD curricula. It's like comparing apples and fruit baskets.

 

[genesis09]

I agree. Content wise, the BS programs were variable. Some people got a well-rounded education, while others were limited by a career track oriented focus. It's hard to compare the non-standardized BS curricula to today's PharmD curricula. It's like comparing apples and fruit baskets.

Yes, so true. At UIC, it will be almost impossible to compare the B.S. Pharm to the PharmD program. When the B.S. was being awarded, the school was on a quarter system, but now, we are on semesters. The transition from quarters to semesters affected the way many of the classes were put together.

 

[Pilot]

The ACPE's purpose is to define and maintain standards of education of pharmacists. The last 50 years has shown an extraordinary rise in new drug technologies and classes. The motivation is not money - it is to educate those people who have to translate the sophisticated information of drugs and devices to the lay public & to those other health professions who occasionally deal with drugs outside their normal areas of practice.

Where are the requalification exams required of other fields then? If the purpose of the ACPE is to maintain standards of education, then continuing education and recertification should be part of the process also to ensure that pharmacists continue to learn and stay current.

Please don't tell me that CE obtained to keep licensure is adequate. Oklahoma requires 15 hours CE each year, and I can do all 15 hours in about 3 hours online at powerpak.com. A legitimate 15 hours per year would not be adequate to stay up to date, and as of now there is no mandatory method to determine whether pharmacists are competent to practice after being out of school for more than 3 years (arbitrary number - I just figure a pharmacist couldn't get too far behind in three years).

Every branch of medicine requires recertification (i.e. retake the board specialty licensure exam) every seven to 10 years, depending on the specialty. This is in addition to yearly CME, and some specialties require yearly CME packets which are very time consuming (ie several full days to a week to complete). If a physician is unable to pass the recertification exam, he/she is not Board Certified in that specialty anymore. It would be quite a blow to a cardiologist/oncologist/gastroenterologist/etc to be unable to practice anymore (would lose insurance & hospital privileges).

Gotta go round now....

 

[sdn1977]

Where are the requalification exams required of other fields then? If the purpose of the ACPE is to maintain standards of education, then continuing education and recertification should be part of the process also to ensure that pharmacists continue to learn and stay current.

Please don't tell me that CE obtained to keep licensure is adequate. Oklahoma requires 15 hours CE each year, and I can do all 15 hours in about 3 hours online at powerpak.com. A legitimate 15 hours per year would not be adequate to stay up to date, and as of now there is no mandatory method to determine whether pharmacists are competent to practice after being out of school for more than 3 years (arbitrary number - I just figure a pharmacist couldn't get too far behind in three years).

Every branch of medicine requires recertification (i.e. retake the board specialty licensure exam) every seven to 10 years, depending on the specialty. This is in addition to yearly CME, and some specialties require yearly CME packets which are very time consuming (ie several full days to a week to complete). If a physician is unable to pass the recertification exam, he/she is not Board Certified in that specialty anymore. It would be quite a blow to a cardiologist/oncologist/gastroenterologist/etc to be unable to practice anymore (would lose insurance & hospital privileges).

Gotta go round now....

The difference is the ACPE determines the requirements for basic education of the entry level degree. It does not determine the requirements for pharmacy specialties - pediatrics, oncology, etc...Kwizard is the guru on knowing that info offhand, but it is readily available.

As far as physicians...they do not need to retake their examinations for their medical license (they take three examinations - Step I, II & III). However, their specialty certification FACOG, etc...is determined by rules set out by ABPS - the American Board of Physician Specialties. They have recently determined new rules for reexamination which is slowly being phased in. So...for their basic medical license - like our basic pharmacy license...no further examination is required - just CME - like our CE.

As for dentistry - no extra examinations are required after receiving their license, even for specialties. They just have to take a required amt of CE also.

All of this is not to say that further study and examination should not be done - that is & has been up for debate for years. However, the ACPE's primary goal is to ensure the education of pharmacy students is up to date with current practice and they set the standard of what that minimum should be.

As a professional, it is your own personal integrity which determines how responsibly you approach your education post licensure. Altho you alluded to the online PowerPak courses as being less than adequate for CE - if that is the case for yourself & the information you learn is not applicable to your practice...then you are only shorting yourself. However, you know you can choose something different if you want. For myself...I've done some of those & they're not bad. I also choose others types of CE which keep me current & I can bet my knowledge against any new graduate even though I received my PharmD in 1977.

Remember - ACPE sets education standards - not licensure standards - that is a state function.

 

[kwizard]

The difference is the ACPE determines the requirements for basic education of the entry level degree. It does not determine the requirements for pharmacy specialties - pediatrics, oncology, etc...Kwizard is the guru on knowing that info offhand, but it is readily available.

Remember - ACPE sets education standards - not licensure standards - that is a state function.

Yes the requirements for specialties beyond basic education is handled by the Board of Pharmaceutical Specialties as opposed to ACPE. The main purpose of pharmacy schools is to adequately prepare you for passing the NAPLEX/MPJE. Obviously some schools do this better than others. The direction pharmacy is going right now is that the measuring stick for the pharmacy clinician is being determined by residency training and board certification. Whether this is the right direction to go or not is debatable; however, the profession is going in that direction in either instance. Secondly much of these changes in post-graduated education is likely to impact the continuing evolution in pharmacy education during the P1-P4 yrs basically asking the continuous question of whether pharmacy students are being prepared as well as other health care profession to flourish in clinical settings. There was a nice debate in Pharmacotherapy w/ even several more commentaries agreeing and disagreeing w/ the editorial:

----------------------------------------------------
: Pharmacotherapy. 2003 Nov;23(11):1381-90.

Comment in:
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):677-81; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):682-4; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):685-7; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):688-9; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):690-1; discussion 691-3.

Pharmacy education: back to the basics?

Figg WD, Cox MC.
---------------------------------------------------

The requirements to maintain licensure for board certification are much more intense than the requirements required by the various states. I think BCNSP actually requires that you have to retake the exam in addition to completing a certain amount of approved CE credits. Others like the BCPS and BCPP only require that you complete 120hrs w/i the renewal period and if you fall short than you have to retake the exam in a condensed for of only 100 questions (I think). I think the required hrs are 120hrs over 5 yr renewal rate so that is about 24 credits per yr (in addition to those required for state license) so I guess you could argue that it should be more stringent. Either way pharmacy is still evolving into more defined clinical functions, but I think we could all agree that continued dialogue is the best way to ensure that such progression benefits the profession in a positive manner.

 

[sdn1977]

Yes the requirements for specialties beyond basic education is handled by the Board of Pharmaceutical Specialties as opposed to ACPE. The main purpose of pharmacy schools is to adequately prepare you for passing the NAPLEX/MPJE. Obviously some schools do this better than others. The direction pharmacy is going right now is that the measuring stick for the pharmacy clinician is being determined by residency training and board certification. Whether this is the right direction to go or not is debatable; however, the profession is going in that direction in either instance. Secondly much of these changes in post-graduated education is likely to impact the continuing evolution in pharmacy education during the P1-P4 yrs basically asking the continuous question of whether pharmacy students are being prepared as well as other health care profession to flourish in clinical settings. There was a nice debate in Pharmacotherapy w/ even several more commentaries agreeing and disagreeing w/ the editorial:

----------------------------------------------------
: Pharmacotherapy. 2003 Nov;23(11):1381-90.

Comment in:
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):677-81; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):682-4; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):685-7; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):688-9; discussion 691-3.
Pharmacotherapy. 2004 May;24(5):690-1; discussion 691-3.

Pharmacy education: back to the basics?

Figg WD, Cox MC.
---------------------------------------------------

The requirements to maintain licensure for board certification are much more intense than the requirements required by the various states. I think BCNSP actually requires that you have to retake the exam in addition to completing a certain amount of approved CE credits. Others like the BCPS and BCPP only require that you complete 120hrs w/i the renewal period and if you fall short than you have to retake the exam in a condensed for of only 100 questions (I think). I think the required hrs are 120hrs over 5 yr renewal rate so that is about 24 credits per yr (in addition to those required for state license) so I guess you could argue that it should be more stringent. Either way pharmacy is still evolving into more defined clinical functions, but I think we could all agree that continued dialogue is the best way to ensure that such progression benefits the profession in a positive manner.

Thank you! I knew I could count on you for that info!