How about some ACGME accred.?!

[H0mersimps0n]

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Since we're getting into the political movements around here lately I thought I'd start a convo on hospitals and medical schools getting ACGME accredited.. Currently it looks like only allo programs can get it. Not really a problem unless you call a hospital to do a 3/4year rotation and they tell me they only take students from ACGME accred. schools.

Thoughts? Is this the AOA hanging us out to dry again?

 

[Docgeorge]

Medical school need LCME accredidation and Hospitals need JACHO. Allopathic Residenys need ACGME accredidation.

Now that we've got our vocabullary straightend out. The AOA will never allow it. As soon as they get wind of it they will pull a schools accredation just like they did with the Calfornia Osteopatic Assn in the 60's when they held merger talks.

Some thing allong the lines of what you suggest almost happened at our school in the early 80's. The President of the university had forged a deal where our campus would become a part of the University of Iowa it sounds as if they were really close, but U of I said that we would have to discontinue the DO degree and conferr MD degree. Vittalano was as the stories go pretty close to agreeing but he was ousted.

I think the main prob lies in that I dont think that all 22 schools would meet LCME requiremnts in several catagories. The state schools would and prob some of the established ones would too, but some of the newer stand alone schools with out research and other graduate programs would not.

I think what is realistic that we work to change the AOA from the inside. Thats got more of a chance of working. IMHO.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Yeah I figured I was slightly off on that whole vocab thing George, sorry...

Still trying to figure out how this profession is going to perserve it's roots and improve quality control/maintain competitive- I guess that's the million dollar question facing the profession these days...

 

[Shinken]

The best route isn't to change the AOA from the inside. The best route is to go to a website called www.aamc.org and log on to an application service called AMCAS. From there you can apply to schools that are accredited by the LCME and then participate in residencies accredited by the ACGME. Problem solved.

Not to sound like a jerk, but if you wanted LCME accreditation for your school and ACGME accreditation for your rotations/residency you really should've applied to MD schools. Applying to DO schools and then saying "OK, now that I'm in DO school I'm going to complain until the AOA transforms my school into an LCME school, and my residency into an ACGME residency, and my degree into an MDo degree" it's kind of doing things the hard way. Not only that, but when people read threads like these, the "MD Wannabe" stereotype that all DO students are saddled with becomes even more difficult to argue against.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

An expected response- I didn't really explain myself all that well. Try and think of it more as a love of the profession rather than a "let's be like them"... If I didn't love the philosphy I definitely wouldn't be here- that's for another day if you want to get into that...

I mean you can sit around and watch the profession slowly erode into obscurity (quantity doesn't mean quality- I know our #'s are growing) because our philosophy rarely extends it's legitimacy beyond anecdotal evidence. Just think about the last time a professor quoted a paper in your OMM session while teaching a technique. All I'm saying is I'd like to see some higher standards to something hospitals of any "brand" can respect.

Standards and research don't matter? I have a billion dollar drug off the market that says otherwise. Let's face it, the pubic feels differently about the important of legitimate research in medicine

I don't see the AOA or the profession making a big enough move toward research (DO/PhD programs, etc), quality or confidence.

Some will say get involved in the AOA and to that I say I haven't decided what I want to do.

Mods, if this convo has happened before and you feel this isn't a constructive thread no hard feelings if u want to close it. If you think it's constructive then so be it...

 

[medicine1]

Things can become complicated in terms of finding a good residency program sometimes, and many programs only have ACGME accreditation. For Example, I have the HPSP scholarship and the residency programs through the military are only ACGME accredited. Though I still have the option of being deferred, I can still do my residency at an AOA accredited program/hospital. The AOA does have exceptions for students that are under certain pressures, including military obligations.

Many of the Osteopathic boards require research, during residency and during fellowship. I agree that many D.O. schools should build and create more research centers and teaching hospitals. It will take time and money, but it can be done. There are huge Osteopathic research centers, one being in San Antonio at TCOM.
I would encourage anyone to join forces, and to go to Washington D.C., to encourage the NIH and the government to provide funding. We can also go through the route of private funding as well. 😉


Lt Mark Stevens
TUCOM-Nevada
Class of 2009
HPSP recipient 😉

 

[H0mersimps0n]

It's not even about being able to find a "good" program, I can't speak on that because I haven't researched enough. It's more of a locality thing than anything. I'm trying to get into a major US city that is quite DO unfriendly and many of my roadblocks seem to be all of these DAMN allo accred acronyms. This makes me question the quality/status of AOA accred in the eyes of non-DO schools/programs. This and my own reservations about the direction our profession is taking. I love our manipulations and take my portable table everywhere I go and even treat my fiancee's MD classmates who ask for it every time I visit. I'm proud of what I do but I have the wisdom to realize that it's only a matter of time before someone slips up, hurts someone and the whole philsophy get's put in the hot seat...

 

[Docgeorge]

Shinken you need to chill bro...and more importantly take off your blinders and use some of the critical thinking skills I hope you have developed in Medical School.

I love my program, my cirriculum (with exception of Cranial) and 99% of the people here. But I do have issiues with the AOA being very short sighted and very neoptistic. There are some seriouse issues that we as a profession must discuss and come to a conclusion on, and when I say we I mean the whole population of DO, not the ones who are appointed to the national commitee.

I find hard to swallow that me a student member of the AOA doesnt get a repersentational vote to determine policy in the AOA but do in the AMA. I find it hard to swallow that in the current system of govt of the AOA that if I dont tote the party line that I am considered a heretec and an MD wanna be.

The way that you better your self and by extention a profession is to always analize, allways be skeptical, allways be thinking can this be better. The only reason that we (DO's) are here today as fully lincensed physicians is because at other times in our history (eg when Materia Medica was added to our sylabi) we took stock of where we were at and where we wanted to be and made steps to accomplish our goals.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Shinken you need to chill bro...and more importantly take off your blinders and use some of the critical thinking skills I hope you have developed in Medical School.

I love my program, my cirriculum (with exception of Cranial) and 99% of the people here. But I do have issiues with the AOA being very short sighted and very neoptistic. There are some seriouse issues that we as a profession must discuss and come to a conclusion on, and when I say we I mean the whole population of DO, not the ones who are appointed to the national commitee.

I find hard to swallow that me a student member of the AOA doesnt get a repersentational vote to determine policy in the AOA but do in the AMA. I find it hard to swallow that in the current system of govt of the AOA that if I dont tote the party line that I am considered a heretec and an MD wanna be.

The way that you better your self and by extention a profession is to always analize, allways be skeptical, allways be thinking can this be better. The only reason that we (DO's) are here today as fully lincensed physicians is because at other times in our history (eg when Materia Medica was added to our sylabi) we took stock of where we were at and where we wanted to be and made steps to accomplish our goals.

amen DG

 

[Docgeorge]

With a Military Residency you get accredited by both the AOA and ACGME. No extrapaper work to fill out no rubber stamps needed. My Dean for example did his Surgery at BAMC and he is a fellow of both the American College of Surgery and the American Osteopathic College of surgery.

Speaking of that the other thing that irratates me is why is a military residency automatically get AOA approval but if for example I did a ACGME residency I have to jump through hoops to get mine AOA approved. The question becomes are there any functional differences between the training I would get in civilian ACGME residency vs a Military Residency which is set up to meet ACGME guidelines.

Addionally if I did my surg residency at Wright State or UTSW as a civillian (FYI those two are mil/civillian combined residcies)would I get AOA approval automatically like my fellow residents who are in the military or do I have to jump through hoops.

 

[Docgeorge]

Homer, man good luck on finding a hospital. Is it for third year or for fourth year rotations. You might be able to get around this if you call the Chair of the dept were you want to rotate and explain your situation. You might also want to look and see if they have DO's as residents. Is it in baltimore or boston?

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Damn your good DG... Baltimore. UMD actually took someone from my school for psych last year and my fiancee says she's seen DO's around but my inside info told me that the Dean made a strict rule a few years ago that only students who come from ACGME (whatever) schools can rotated 3/4 year through ANY hospital associated with UMD med (includes like 3-4 hospitals at least). Strangely, Hopkin's said I COULD do electives with them.

Researchin, playin the game, getting opinions...

 

[Docgeorge]

Damn your good DG... Baltimore. UMD actually took someone from my school for psych last year and my fiancee says she's seen DO's around but my inside info told me that the Dean made a strict rule a few years ago that only students who come from ACGME (whatever) schools can rotated 3/4 year through ANY hospital associated with UMD med (includes like 3-4 hospitals at least). Strangely, Hopkin's said I COULD do electives with them.

Researchin, playin the game, getting opinions...

Go figure. Their loss. Make us look good at Hopkins.

PS Ofcourse I'm good....I'm gonna be a surgeon 😀

 

[PublicEnemy]

hey, just to clarify, the LCME does not accredit osteopathic medical schools. This is mostly by choice of the AOA which remains the only accrediting body for american osteopathic medical schools.

it seems odd that a hospital wouldn't allow students to rotate unless they were from an ACGME accredited school. that doesn't even make sense, schools aren't ACGME accredited, hospitals and institutions are. students on rotations wouldn't even have completed training even if their school's hospital was ACGME accredited. perhaps they meant the hosppital only allows students from LCME accredited schools, but more than likely what the hospital is saying is that they don't actually hire physicians unless they graduated from an ACGME approved residency. this means that a DO would most likely had to have gone to an allo residency program to work there or they would had to have gotten their particular residency program dually accredited. ACGME is the standard for ensuring that the residency program you graduated from is up to par, at least for allo programs.

this has been discussed extensively in other forums, but the AOA currently doesn't want to give up anything to the LCME, because thats their identity, and thats fine, but in terms of Graduate Medical Education, the AOA doesn't want to really give up much ground to the ACGME either but i think it really makes sense to have a single accreditation body. there's a lot of politics, especially with the way the AOA requires DO's to have at least an AOA internship or something like that in order to be certified.

currently, though a good number of the AOA residencies are becoming dually accredited with ACGME. i think that will be the next progression, complete dual approval, and then we'll move back towards the join match or something like that.

 

[TCOM-2006]

I find hard to swallow that me a student member of the AOA doesnt get a repersentational vote to determine policy in the AOA but do in the AMA. I find it hard to swallow that in the current system of govt of the AOA that if I dont tote the party line that I am considered a heretec and an MD wanna be.

--docgeorge-- great insight overall and i agree with most of what you say, but just wanted to make note that there are voting students in the AOA-HOD. from the constitution and bylaws:

Section 10-Representation of Student Councils
The student council of each accredited osteopathic college may be represented in the House of Delegates by its president (and such president's alternate elected by such student council) as a member of the delegation of the divisional society representing the state in which such osteopathic college is located. Each such student delegate shall be accredited in the same manner and have the same privileges as the other members of the divisional society delegation; however, the chief administrative officer of each accredited osteopathic college shall certify the student council president and alternate to the Executive Director of this Association in writing or by wire at least 30 days prior to the first day of the annual meeting of the House of Delegates and such Executive Director shall forthwith similarly certify each student council president and alternate to the secretary of the appropriate divisional society.

--i also think SOMA gets a vote. just wanted to make this clear.

--also, one minor correction (from another post) - TCOM is in Fort Worth - not San Antonio.

--will try to reply to some of the main points on the thread soon.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Things can become complicated in terms of finding a good residency program sometimes, and many programs only have ACGME accreditation. For Example, I have the HPSP scholarship and the residency programs through the military are only ACGME accredited. Though I still have the option of being deferred, I can still do my residency at an AOA accredited program/hospital. The AOA does have exceptions for students that are under certain pressures, including military obligations.

Many of the Osteopathic boards require research, during residency and during fellowship. I agree that many D.O. schools should build and create more research centers and teaching hospitals. It will take time and money, but it can be done. There are huge Osteopathic research centers, one being in San Antonio at TCOM.
I would encourage anyone to join forces, and to go to Washington D.C., to encourage the NIH and the government to provide funding. We can also go through the route of private funding as well. 😉


Lt Mark Stevens
TUCOM-Nevada
Class of 2009
HPSP recipient 😉

TCOM's hospital closed down recently, and all their residents had to leave and find spots elsewhere. TCOM is in Ft. Worth.

 

[medicine1]

😀 😕 So what happened? Why did the research center close down recently? I thought I saw the AOA website say that they were trying to have an NIH research convocation at TCOM??

 

[Malph]

Hello Everyone,

I just want to drop a note here to get ALL D.O. Students to visit the current MATCH Survey thread--we only have a total of ten days from 4 feb 2005 to collect everyone's input.

http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?p=2261181#post2261181

We all talk about change on these threads, and now you have a chance to actually affect it. Please visit the thread and if you have not already done so, take 2 minutes and fill out the small 9 question survey. This is literally 2 min that can change the future of how we distribute students to programs.

Thanks so much for your time and I love reading the threads here on SDN.

 

[daveyboy]

The best route isn't to change the AOA from the inside. The best route is to go to a website called www.aamc.org and log on to an application service called AMCAS. From there you can apply to schools that are accredited by the LCME and then participate in residencies accredited by the ACGME. Problem solved.

Not to sound like a jerk, but if you wanted LCME accreditation for your school and ACGME accreditation for your rotations/residency you really should've applied to MD schools. Applying to DO schools and then saying "OK, now that I'm in DO school I'm going to complain until the AOA transforms my school into an LCME school, and my residency into an ACGME residency, and my degree into an MDo degree" it's kind of doing things the hard way. Not only that, but when people read threads like these, the "MD Wannabe" stereotype that all DO students are saddled with becomes even more difficult to argue against.

Usually when somebody starts off a statement with, "Not to sound like a jerk", it is to cushion the blow of a statement that is going to make them sound like a jerk. This is very similar to, "To be honest", as a prelude to a lie.

Not only does your statement make you sound like a jerk, it makes you sound like an ignorant jerk. It does spark discussion of an important issue, so maybe you can play it off as being a visionary of some sort.

A person that chose a DO school, in a very ideal world, would have chosen that school because they felt that the Osteopathic philosophy best suited their needs for a medical education. When such a person becomes aware that the post graduate education or any other aspect of their beloved profession needs improvement, they are then bound by their commitment to that profession to work towards the goal of improvement.

It really needs to be said that being a DO student and being committed to the ideal of Osteopathic medicine is not dependent upon total agreement with the AOA. The AOA is a political organization. Osteopathy is a philosophy. “Correlation does not equal causation". The two are related, but they are not mutually inclusive.

If the majority of Osteopathic medical students(OMG, I said OMS) are not satisfied with areas of their medical education, or graduate medical education, they should work toward changing it to fit their ideal. Should Osteopathic medical students sit back and accept the current situation in graduate education because a political organization has policies that are not in their best interests? Should Osteopathic medical students be forced to sit back and accept a role as a "second class doctor"? Should I just sit in the back of the residency bus because I chose an Osteopathic school?

The obvious answer is, "no F-in way"! This isn't because we really just want to be an MD. This is because we are proud of our profession, because we know the weight of the word "physician", and we want the profession to be the best that it can be. If that means that a few policies need some changing, then so be it.

 

[daveyboy]

TCOM's hospital closed down recently, and all their residents had to leave and find spots elsewhere. TCOM is in Ft. Worth.

One of their hospitals shut down. There are still Osteopathic residencies at another Ft. Worth hospital(Plaza). The ORC is still alive.

 

[H0mersimps0n]

Thank you for articulating that thought in a way I couldn't davy, you nailed it on the head...

 

[bustbones26]

Quite honestly, I just wanted to become a doctor myself, didn't care if I did the MD or DO way. But that was back in the day when I didn't know what ACGME, LCME, ABC, 123, XYZ, YYZ was, nor did I really care!!! I have to admit, if I knew then what I know now, I would have gone MD. I have nothing against DO's hell I am one!! But the only problem with DO's is DO's, we keep making "our problems" our problems!! I am sick of the $hit

"we are just as good as MD's"
"we are better than MD's"
" I could have gone to Yale, Harvard, but I chose DO for its philosophy"
Yada Yada Yada!! Yap Yap Yap!!!
I am sick of it all!!!

The "DO philosophy"???? That's a bunch of hog wash if I ever heard it, are any of you actually suggesting that the MD's are incapable of making sensitive, well rounded physicians just because they don't know the AT Still history? Newsflash, MD schools are forcing their students to take clinical skills exams, physical diagnosis course, sensitivity workshops, etc., just like the DO's. So to sum it up, we are not special!!! Why do you all think that there are complementary and alternative medicine clinics showing up around the country operated by, guess who, MD's!!!! Because as of late, the MD's, believe it or not, are starting to realize that yes, they do need well rounded physicians, they do need to treat people and not the disease, this is why people with a liberal arts education, and not science, backgrounds are now being welcomed into both MD and DO schools. The "treat people and not the disease philosophy" is nothing new, in fact it has been around for many many years, its just that the DO's at first wanted to make for sure that their physicians were being educated with this philosphy from day number one. Now the MD's are doing it too. We are not special anymore.

 

[medicine1]

Osteopathy is special, and is different. We have a different perspective on health and wellness. DOs are more wholistic, looking at the whole person. We learn this from day one. Both MDs and DOs are special, but we are different. We should celebrate these differences, and be mindful of each other. MDs and DOs are both noble in their cause/s to help people, but DOs learn with a different mind frame.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Osteopathy is special, and is different. We have a different perspective on health and wellness. DOs are more wholistic, looking at the whole person. We learn this from day one. Both MDs and DOs are special, but we are different. We should celebrate these differences, and be mindful of each other. MDs and DOs are both noble in their cause/s to help people, but DOs learn with a different mind frame.

I am so tired of this crap.

Are DOs the same as MDs or are they different? Its annoying how you guys flip flop between the two at your convenience.

1. You guys are special and learn a whole new way of treating people with your philosophy. In fact, you guys are so special that MDs would be doing you a favor by banning you from our corrupt, disease-centric allopathic residencies! I'm sure you guys would support a petition stating such, considering how evil and uncaring MDs are! Only the finest DO residencies for DO students now, no more allopathic or combined match!

2. Yet, you guys are the equal of MDs (and in fact say that you know MORE than MDs) yet you guys dont do nearly as well as MDs on Step I (and even this out of the self-selected elite among you that take it).

Gimme a break 🙄

 

[docslytherin]

I am so tired of this crap.

Are DOs the same as MDs or are they different? Its annoying how you guys flip flop between the two at your convenience.

1. You guys are special and learn a whole new way of treating people with your philosophy. In fact, you guys are so special that MDs would be doing you a favor by banning you from our corrupt, disease-centric allopathic residencies! I'm sure you guys would support a petition stating such, considering how evil and uncaring MDs are! Only the finest DO residencies for DO students now, no more allopathic or combined match!

2. Yet, you guys are the equal of MDs (and in fact say that you know MORE than MDs) yet you guys dont do nearly as well as MDs on Step I (and even this out of the self-selected elite among you that take it).

Gimme a break 🙄

so 1. i don't believe MDs and DOs are that different. i believe that DOs do sometimes go about their practice a little different (more hands-on, etc), but for the most part are there to diagnose as quickly and thoroughly as possible to get their patients well again. MDs do the same thing. learning more, learning less, blah blah blah.
2. DOs don't do worse of the Step 1 because we're not as smart, we do worse as a general statement because we're trained to take OUR exam. there are studies that directly correlate USMLE performance and COMLEX performance, showing the two as comparable evaluations of knowledge. and i wouldn't say "nearly as well as MDs" as it's not like all the MDs are in the 230s and all the DOs are in the 190s.
3. you can't ban us from your MD residencies because our tax dollars pay just as much toward those programs as yours do. as long as we have equal practice rights, we have equal claim to residency spots. those who choose not to have us because of our titles are judging based on our degrees rather than our abilities.

i often complain about the state of the osteopathic postgraduate training. facilities are often in rural, community hospitals without ties to major institutions or research. the thing that really annoys me is that there aren't enough spots to hold all of the DO graduates should all of us choose to pursue a DO residency. that's ridiculous!! and we're opening new schools every year while closing or minimizing currently available residencies.

the real problem with the AOA right now is that the guys in charge came out of a period in our history when DOs were not recognized as equals. they were looked down upon as professionals and had to work very hard to get us the recognition that we will enjoy upon graduation. as a result, they are very protective of their identity as DOs, not simply as physicians. they fought to be proud of their degrees and not to attempt to homogenize them with the MD graduates.

so i'll just sit and complain and apply for only MD residencies when it comes time for that and hope that sometime during my career, the AOA realizes that it's more important to be a part of the team than to adamantly insist on playing a particular position.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

2. DOs don't do worse of the Step 1 because we're not as smart, we do worse as a general statement because we're trained to take OUR exam. there are studies that directly correlate USMLE performance and COMLEX performance, showing the two as comparable evaluations of knowledge. and i wouldn't say "nearly as well as MDs" as it's not like all the MDs are in the 230s and all the DOs are in the 190s.

To be honest, I care little about how well MDs and DOs do on standardized tests, just like I care little about standardized tests. But if people are going to say DOs are MDs + more, well, that sure isnt manifesting itself quantitatively...

3. you can't ban us from your MD residencies because our tax dollars pay just as much toward those programs as yours do. as long as we have equal practice rights, we have equal claim to residency spots. those who choose not to have us because of our titles are judging based on our degrees rather than our abilities.

That's interesting. So why can't I be an osteopathic dermatology resident as an MD grad assuming I get X OMT CME credits?

the thing that really annoys me is that there aren't enough spots to hold all of the DO graduates should all of us choose to pursue a DO residency. that's ridiculous!! and we're opening new schools every year while closing or minimizing currently available residencies.

I hear ya, go tell that to the pre-DOs 👍

 

[OSUdoc08]

Since we're getting into the political movements around here lately I thought I'd start a convo on hospitals and medical schools getting ACGME accredited.. Currently it looks like only allo programs can get it. Not really a problem unless you call a hospital to do a 3/4year rotation and they tell me they only take students from ACGME accred. schools.

Thoughts? Is this the AOA hanging us out to dry again?

LCME/ACGME accreditation for an AOA residency would be costly.

This would allow all M.D. graduates to apply for the programs, completely destroying the advantange D.O.'s have to apply to more residency programs than M.D.'s.

 

[docslytherin]

That's interesting. So why can't I be an osteopathic dermatology resident as an MD grad assuming I get X OMT CME credits?

because two years of OMT classwork and hours of utilization during clinical rotations can't be made up for by taking a few CME classes.

you'd get plenty of OMT going to a DO school and you'd have both options open to you...

as a question for everyone, since DO residencies are at private hospitals for the most part, are they funded by medicare or are they funded directly by the hospital itself??

 

[JohnDO]

2. Yet, you guys are the equal of MDs (and in fact say that you know MORE than MDs) yet you guys dont do nearly as well as MDs on Step I (and even this out of the self-selected elite among you that take it).

Although this has been covered to death, we're trained for a different test which serves a similar purpose. Is the USMLE the end-all exam for medical knowledge? What about the COMLEX? Is it a fair assessment to say that because MD's don't score well on the COMLEX they don't know as much about medicine? Furthermore, it's not necessarily a self-selected elite that take the USMLE. What do we have to lose by taking it? Nothing in the long run. As others have stated, there isn't really a correlation between medical school grades and taking the USMLE. People from all ends of the spectrum take the exam. Anyone even eyeballing an ACGME residency will likely take a shot at it. It's not valid to say that the USMLE takers represent the 'elite' of the osteopathic community.

 

[Fantasy Sports]

Although this has been covered to death, we're trained for a different test which serves a similar purpose. Is the USMLE the end-all exam for medical knowledge? What about the COMLEX? Is it a fair assessment to say that because MD's don't score well on the COMLEX they don't know as much about medicine? Furthermore, it's not necessarily a self-selected elite that take the USMLE. What do we have to lose by taking it? Nothing in the long run. As others have stated, there isn't really a correlation between medical school grades and taking the USMLE. People from all ends of the spectrum take the exam. Anyone even eyeballing an ACGME residency will likely take a shot at it. It's not valid to say that the USMLE takers represent the 'elite' of the osteopathic community.

We don't know how MDs do on COMPLEX because no MD I know of has ever taken it. And if you removed the CME, Id be interested to see the result.

People generally eyeballing the ACGME residencies are generally the ones who think they can get an ACGME residency... ie the "elite" DOs. No doubt there are individuals of other qualifications making an attempt, but if we had more stats I would be willing to venture that it would generally be people from the top quartile of the class. Unfortunately, I have no proof of this (nor do you) so I guess its worthless to discuss this point further (though we could still discuss the overall averages, which still fit my argument).

 

[Fantasy Sports]

because two years of OMT classwork and hours of utilization during clinical rotations can't be made up for by taking a few CME classes.

Sure it can be, you can have a test that marks the endpoint. If you pass it, you know OMT. That's how accreditation works. It doesnt matter if I study 1000 hours over my career while my counterpart studies 500, if we score the same and pass, we are both fit to be accreditted.

And yes, Medicare pays for residency training, and medicare also funds private hospitals to do residency training.

Id be interested to see what would happen if an unmatched allopathic derm challenged the federal government on the grounds of discrimination (doing well on COMPLEX, etc), in an interesting twist from what DOs have been using to gain privileges at hospitals as well.

And in terms of your comment about DOs opening up opportunities and osteopathy being such a great philosophy. I feel if that were the truly case, you guys would stick around osteopathic residencies more instead of running over to ACGME accreditted ones...

 

[docslytherin]

Sure it can be, you can have a test that marks the endpoint. If you pass it, you know OMT. That's how accreditation works. It doesnt matter if I study 1000 hours over my career while my counterpart studies 500, if we score the same and pass, we are both fit to be accreditted.

And yes, Medicare pays for residency training, and medicare also funds private hospitals to do residency training.

Id be interested to see what would happen if an unmatched allopathic derm challenged the federal government on the grounds of discrimination (doing well on COMPLEX, etc), in an interesting twist from what DOs have been using to gain privileges at hospitals as well.

And in terms of your comment about DOs opening up opportunities and osteopathy being such a great philosophy. I feel if that were the truly case, you guys would stick around osteopathic residencies more instead of running over to ACGME accreditted ones...

i take almost 200 credit hours of OMT during my first two years of school. plus i have at least one four week rotation heavily based on OMT in a clinic. now you tell me how you can be proficient by taking a few weekend classes.

contrary to what you might believe OMT is not something you can learn in a book and you have to practice it extensively to figure it out...

i'd like to see an MD try to file a complaint about not getting into a DO residency... that would be like a PA or NP filing a complaint about not getting into an MD residency. you don't meet the requirements necessary for entry. period. it's not discrimination.

DOs don't need interesting twists to get into ACGME residencies. this has apparently become an issue for a lot of MD students, but the reality is, we're sought out by the residency directors at these programs. mayo, the cleveland clinic, wustl have all recruited students from my school. so, we're not manipulating a system. for all intents and purposes, the letters after our names mean nothing and you need to just accept us as more competition for your coveted derm spot. the vast majority of "your residency programs" (sarcasm) don't care if an applicant is an MD or a DO... they care about ability, because unlike an MD trying to get into a DO residency, we have the equivalent background.

with all that being said, should more MD schools start integrating manual medicine into curricula, i don't see any problem letting MDs into DO programs. i think it would be fine. but you have to appreciate that OMT isn't something that you learn with CME classes to a point that allows you to utilize it to the necessary level. it's a lot like learning how to use a stethoscope. someone can tell you all day long how to use it and what it should sound like, but until you've spent hours listening to heart and lung sounds, you have no idea about the nuances involved in being proficient with it.

did i ever say anything about "osteopathy being such a great philosophy"? i don't remember saying it... i think osteopathy is akin to the kind of medicine i want to practice, though my desire to practice as a heme/onc doc necessitates that i enter an ACGME IM residency and then an ACGME fellowship. this isn't because i'm compromising on anything. it's because the opportunity is available to me and it will be the most beneficial to my future patients. there is only one DO heme/onc program. applying to the ACGME residencies/fellowships allows me flexibility and i don't feel like i'm forfeiting my DO title to do it. it seems that you make the assumption that DO students entering the ACGME match are actually frustrated MD rejects. we're not. many of us had MD acceptances and turned them down. ability counts more than title.

 

[docslytherin]

COMPLEX

it's COMLEX - Comprehensive Osteopathic Medical Licensing Examination...

there's no "P"

 

[JohnDO]

We don't know how MDs do on COMPLEX because no MD I know of has ever taken it. And if you removed the CME, Id be interested to see the result.

I'd like to see that done as well.

Unfortunately, I have no proof of this (nor do you) so I guess its worthless to discuss this point further (though we could still discuss the overall averages, which still fit my argument).

It is a fact that osteopathic students do not pass the USMLE with the same percentage as MD students, but does this have any significant clinical correlation? In other words, is your typical DO and more or less clinically competent than your typical MD? What's your opinion?

 

[Shinken]

It is a fact that osteopathic students do not pass the USMLE with the same percentage as MD students, but does this have any significant clinical correlation? In other words, is your typical DO and more or less clinically competent than your typical MD? What's your opinion?

I hate to contribute to the 160,000th DO vs MD thread, but here goes:

If you go to the USMLE website and see the performance of MD and DO students, you'll see that as the test becomes more clinical, the DOs either perform equally or actually in some years have outperformed (!) the US MDs in their very own licensing exam. USMLE 1 is not very clinical. USMLE 2 is more clinical. USMLE 3 is almost purely clinical. Compare the performance of US MDs and US DOs in all three. Surprised?

 

[fuegorama]

i take almost 200 credit hours of OMT during my first two years of school. plus i have at least one four week rotation heavily based on OMT in a clinic. now you tell me how you can be proficient by taking a few weekend classes.

contrary to what you might believe OMT is not something you can learn in a book and you have to practice it extensively to figure it out...

i'd like to see an MD try to file a complaint about not getting into a DO residency... that would be like a PA or NP filing a complaint about not getting into an MD residency. you don't meet the requirements necessary for entry. period. it's not discrimination.

Well said....
Now let's look at some other paths. I believe aspects of OMM could be the solution to many of this country's healthcare ills. The ability to circumvent the script pad in cases where manipulation is at least as effective should not be the exclusive domain of DOs and chiros.

Why not salvage the rotating internship by opening it to MDs and incorporating a heavy OMM component? 12 months of didactic and lab time combined with a community internship schedule would be adequate in terms of hours required. (see the +1 residency requirements for NMM at AOA.org)

Completing this education would make the hopeful MD eligible for taking the "Comlex continuum". This is the fantasy board exam that I made up.

In the future world we (DO students) will be taking the USMLE. This will be in place of paying and taking SIX 😱 separate exams. The "continuum" testing will confirm our osteobility (another fantasy word).

MDs should have the same chance.

We will hopefully have a single residency accrediting body. Some of the programs in this body will incorporate OMM. Hopefully it will be part of the standard-of-care for all docs sometime in the future.

The dud programs will die from lack of love. As the AOA has found out...if no one competes for your spots, those spots disappear.
F

 

[OSUdoc08]

Well said....
Now let's look at some other paths. I believe aspects of OMM could be the solution to many of this country's healthcare ills. The ability to circumvent the script pad in cases where manipulation is at least as effective should not be the exclusive domain of DOs and chiros.

Why not salvage the rotating internship by opening it to MDs and incorporating a heavy OMM component? 12 months of didactic and lab time combined with a community internship schedule would be adequate in terms of hours required. (see the +1 residency requirements for NMM at AOA.org)

Completing this education would make the hopeful MD eligible for taking the "Comlex continuum". This is the fantasy board exam that I made up.

In the future world we (DO students) will be taking the USMLE. This will be in place of paying and taking SIX 😱 separate exams. The "continuum" testing will confirm our osteobility (another fantasy word).

MDs should have the same chance.

We will hopefully have a single residency accrediting body. Some of the programs in this body will incorporate OMM. Hopefully it will be part of the standard-of-care for all docs sometime in the future.

The dud programs will die from lack of love. As the AOA has found out...if no one competes for your spots, those spots disappear.
F

Then there would be no reason to have a seperate DO and MD degree, and eventually we would be absorbed into the AMA, which is exactly what they want us to do.

 

[fuegorama]

Then there would be no reason to have a seperate DO and MD degree, and eventually we would be absorbed into the AMA, which is exactly what they want us to do.

And I agree w/ "they".

 

[H0mersimps0n]

I'm sorry this post ended up taking an MD vs DO thread I'll quickly add some items for consideration:

-My fiancée is at an MD school right now and I can tell you that philosophical-wise we are IDENTICLE. In fact the push to treat the "whole" patient is HUGE at her school and I must say I personally was SHOCKED how humanistic the MD education is after hearing in OMM lab about how MD schools teach dehumanized satanic drug-worshiping slaves to the system medicine.

-To feed the fire: If we really loved OMM, helping people, our "philosophy" so much wouldn't the RIGHT/altruistic thing to do is not RUN from being absorbed by the AMA but rather PUSH them to be more like us. Maybe our secondary philosophy should be not to stop until every doc in the US has OMM during medical school, combine the degrees. That way the DO's are happy cause we kept who we are and the MD's are happy because they don't have to waste time and money trying to phagocytose a competitor...

food for thought

 

[fuegorama]

If we really loved OMM, helping people, our "philosophy" so much wouldn't the RIGHT/altruistic thing to do is not RUN from being absorbed by the AMA but rather PUSH them to be more like us. Maybe our secondary philosophy should be not to stop until every doc in the US has OMM during medical school, combine the degrees. That way the DO's are happy cause we kept who we are and the MD's are happy because they don't have to waste time and money trying to phagocytose a competitor...

RockRockON! 👍

 

[H0mersimps0n]

RockRockON! 👍

I want patent rights to that idea BTW lol

 

[bustbones26]

OK here goes----

Announcement, OMT is nothing special!!!

Did I say that?

What part of OMT is truly ours?
Answer: The term somatic dysfunction, and the "code" as to how we name somatic dysfunction, and that people is all that is ours!!!

OMT is not a new concept. I love how in OMT lab our profs act like all of those little ortho exams we do are "our little DO secret", well, they are not, the orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, physical therapist, etc. how been using myfascial trigger points, apley's test, drop arm test, McMurrays, for many years. The advantage of being a DO is that we learn this stuff before we hit rotations, the MD's have to learn it later. THat stuff is NOT OMT!!! That is musculoskeletal medicine that yes, the MD's have been learning for many many years!!!! The physical exam components of our OMT labs are not our invention, sorry if this busted anybody's enthusiasm.

All of the musculoskeletal anatomy and phsyiology we learn in OMT, again, NOT ours!!! There is nothing new about this stuff, the MD"s know it too, again, we just have the advantage of learning that material and having it engrained into our brains long before we hit the clinical phase of our education.

Ok, so now let us try something here, lets strip away all of the musculoskeletal anatomy/physiology and physical exam components of the musculoskeletal system that is part of our OMT education, and what is left? Somatic dysfunction, how to name somatic dysfunction, and how to perform basic osteopathic techniques.

At my school, we had OMT lecture one whole hour per week (wow, overload!!!), followed by 1.5 hours of hands on lab, total = 2.5 hours per week. Compared to everything else, this is hardly anything. Not to mention how much material was repeated over and over again in the second year. I do believe that it is possible to learn OMT by CME. Sorry to hurt anybody, but its not rocket science!! Any MD can pick up an OMT text and understand the material perfectly well!!!

Also let us keep in mind that the OMT education is basic, it focuses on the material that you need to know to pass the COMLEX. Why do you think the AAO has conferences/lectures, because there are advanced techniques of OMT out there, and you are not obligated to learn this material if you are a DO!! YOu are only obligated to learn the basic facts to pass your boards and that is all!!!

I challenge anybody to tell me that an MD trained ortho surgeon doesn't know the musculuoskeletal system as well as a DO ortho!!! Tell me that an MD trained orhto cannot pick up the concepts of somatic dysfunction in about a week!!!

Come on guys, I am a DO, I love the profession, stop making a joke of us!!!

 

[docslytherin]

OK here goes----

Announcement, OMT is nothing special!!!

Did I say that?

What part of OMT is truly ours?
Answer: The term somatic dysfunction, and the "code" as to how we name somatic dysfunction, and that people is all that is ours!!!

OMT is not a new concept. I love how in OMT lab our profs act like all of those little ortho exams we do are "our little DO secret", well, they are not, the orthopedic surgeons, neurosurgeons, physical therapist, etc. how been using myfascial trigger points, apley's test, drop arm test, McMurrays, for many years. The advantage of being a DO is that we learn this stuff before we hit rotations, the MD's have to learn it later. THat stuff is NOT OMT!!! That is musculoskeletal medicine that yes, the MD's have been learning for many many years!!!! The physical exam components of our OMT labs are not our invention, sorry if this busted anybody's enthusiasm.

All of the musculoskeletal anatomy and phsyiology we learn in OMT, again, NOT ours!!! There is nothing new about this stuff, the MD"s know it too, again, we just have the advantage of learning that material and having it engrained into our brains long before we hit the clinical phase of our education.

Ok, so now let us try something here, lets strip away all of the musculoskeletal anatomy/physiology and physical exam components of the musculoskeletal system that is part of our OMT education, and what is left? Somatic dysfunction, how to name somatic dysfunction, and how to perform basic osteopathic techniques.

At my school, we had OMT lecture one whole hour per week (wow, overload!!!), followed by 1.5 hours of hands on lab, total = 2.5 hours per week. Compared to everything else, this is hardly anything. Not to mention how much material was repeated over and over again in the second year. I do believe that it is possible to learn OMT by CME. Sorry to hurt anybody, but its not rocket science!! Any MD can pick up an OMT text and understand the material perfectly well!!!

Also let us keep in mind that the OMT education is basic, it focuses on the material that you need to know to pass the COMLEX. Why do you think the AAO has conferences/lectures, because there are advanced techniques of OMT out there, and you are not obligated to learn this material if you are a DO!! YOu are only obligated to learn the basic facts to pass your boards and that is all!!!

I challenge anybody to tell me that an MD trained ortho surgeon doesn't know the musculuoskeletal system as well as a DO ortho!!! Tell me that an MD trained orhto cannot pick up the concepts of somatic dysfunction in about a week!!!

Come on guys, I am a DO, I love the profession, stop making a joke of us!!!

we're not talking about the orthopedic diagnostic techniques. we're talking about counterstrain, direct (hvla and muscle energy), indirect, myofacial release, etc. those are NOT taught to MD students.

while your school seems to not have much OTM, others like KCOM and DMU have tons of hours and i can assure you that at least here at KCOM we do learn the advanced techniques. 200hrs over two years is an amazing amount of time. and what we cover in my classes at least is not something that can be taken from a book alone.

we're not trying to compare a DO orthopedic surgeon and an MD orthopedic surgeon. we're comparing 4th year students, and, no, i don't think that a 4th yr MD student is as good as a 4th year DO student at diagnosing AND TREATING using manual medicine.

 

[Docgeorge]

Actually at DMU we have an 1.5hrs of lecture and 1.5hrs of lab a week for a total of 3 hrs a week.

 

[OSUdoc08]

Actually at DMU we have an 1.5hrs of lecture and 1.5hrs of lab a week for a total of 3 hrs a week.

We have an hour of lecture a week and 2 hours of lab.

KCOM has way more than us though.