How admissions committees summarize you

[TriagePreMed]

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[AlabamaPop]

What program was this for?

 

[IDFsoldierboy]

This is not for a medical school program. Instead, it's for a program that I got into at Cal. After writing essays and doing the typical long application, this is how they summarized me:

"Hispanic (6.5)
Poor (2.5)
First in family (2)
A lot of Social Sciences, but a "B" in Chemistry and Bio. (5.5)"

I got an A in bio, but whatever. I also don't know what the scoring meant, but I guess I made the cutoff.

How do I know? Because I asked them for a copy of my personal statement and instead they gave me the application with their notes. Those were their only notes.

I'm sorry, but I'm pissed to be graded by my social conditions rather than my academics, volunteer work, or essays.

I hope med school isn't this stupidly cold with admissions.

I hope this doesn't offend you but you will get looked at in different light because you are hispanic and thus in the under-represented/diversity category...there are schools that are REQUIRED to take x amount of under-represented minorities into their programs...that doesnt mean they wont grade you on everything but they will allow lower stats than people who aren't in that category...if you look on the AAMC website they have grids that break down MD acceptances based on MCAT/GPA and there is a pretty big difference (IMO) between those under-represented and those who arent

 

[Colbare]

If it's a state funded school they could require or allow some sort of socioeconomic leniency. It seems like there are still plenty of government entities still implementing affirmative action type programs and I agree it's still discrimination.

 

[Iliketoytles]

I've never understood this concept of under-represented minorities. While african americans and hispanics may not be as common to find in healthcare as whites and asians, it kind of bothers me that what they consider "URM"s get an additional advantage by simply being a particular race; something they had nothing to do with. So what if there aren't as many african americans in healthcare? Diversity is important, but ultimately the people who deserve the spots should be based on what the individual DOES... overcoming financial struggles is realistically not as common among the asian or white community, but adcoms should look at each applicant's story individually and not generalize to give the entire community an advantage, when many "URM"s are floating on a sea of their parents' money.

Pointless post I know. I just had to vent it out, lol. Hope nobody takes offense to this post; I didn't mean for it to come across as racist in any way. I just have an mild issue with the policy. 🙄

 

[lxasylum]

I've never understood this concept of under-represented minorities. While african americans and hispanics may not be as common to find in healthcare as whites and asians, it kind of bothers me that what they consider "URM"s get an additional advantage by simply being a particular race; something they had nothing to do with. So what if there aren't as many african americans in healthcare? Diversity is important, but ultimately the people who deserve the spots should be based on what the individual DOES... overcoming financial struggles is realistically not as common among the asian or white community, but adcoms should look at each applicant's story individually and not generalize to give the entire community an advantage, when many "URM"s are floating on a sea of their parents' money.

Pointless post I know. I just had to vent it out, lol. Hope nobody takes offense to this post; I didn't mean for it to come across as racist in any way. I just have an mild issue with the policy. 🙄

I totally agree with this. I'm all for diversity but for med school? We are talking about medicine here where smarts does matter not my race. Urm's are fine with me if they have grades just as good as the next guy. but why does the aamc put up stats that show that it's actually a DISadvantage that someone is Asian? Makes no sense when I see that their chances increase 80% if they are black! Come on...I know people who have gotten 3.1 and 25mcat and got into md programs at public med schools and 3.7 gpa 30+ mcat get rejected. obv this doesn't deal with the op's comment really but I wanted to vent like turtle. Maybe there is a reason why there aren't many URM in medicine. Thy need to fix this in the future. This solves two problems..1) qualified doctors will be chosen based on intelligence...after all I want a smart doctor saving my life not cuz of their race and 2) URMs will gain the respect they deserve later on in life. I shadowed a black anesthesiologist... Brilliant man. He graduated at the top in everything. He said he did anesthisia because he knew people would judge him if he had to see patients. See what I mean? Smart URMs are prejudged later on in life because people thought they got a handout which is sad.

 

[Jack is Back]

I've never understood this concept of under-represented minorities. While african americans and hispanics may not be as common to find in healthcare as whites and asians, it kind of bothers me that what they consider "URM"s get an additional advantage by simply being a particular race; something they had nothing to do with. So what if there aren't as many african americans in healthcare? Diversity is important, but ultimately the people who deserve the spots should be based on what the individual DOES... overcoming financial struggles is realistically not as common among the asian or white community, but adcoms should look at each applicant's story individually and not generalize to give the entire community an advantage, when many "URM"s are floating on a sea of their parents' money.

Pointless post I know. I just had to vent it out, lol. Hope nobody takes offense to this post; I didn't mean for it to come across as racist in any way. I just have an mild issue with the policy. 🙄

Of course that's your perspective. You've experienced little to no discrimination, have no idea about social history in a lot of states across the united states, and somehow thing that the higher your GPA/MCAT combo the better physician you will make. It funny, if you look at matching statistics even for some comeptitive specialties, some of the 230-240 Step 1 applicants matched higher than the 250-260.... Whhhhatt?

It appears that after an adcom knows that you can be proficient and competent, they will start to seek out other characteristics.

There are 4.0/40s in med school that are cool and that are tools. Med schools will take a rounded, well liked, diverse student body full of competent physicians over just going straight down the GPA/MCAT line.

I understand your perspective, I've had a similar one before. It's really just naievette on how the world works.

 

[Jack is Back]

I totally agree with this. I'm all for diversity but for med school? We are talking about medicine here where smarts does matter not my race. Urm's are fine with me if they have grades just as good as the next guy. but why does the aamc put up stats that show that it's actually a DISadvantage that someone is Asian? Makes no sense when I see that their chances increase 80% if they are black! Come on...I know people who have gotten 3.1 and 25mcat and got into md programs at public med schools and 3.7 gpa 30+ mcat get rejected. obv this doesn't deal with the op's comment really but I wanted to vent like turtle. Maybe there is a reason why there aren't many URM in medicine. Thy need to fix this in the future. This solves two problems..1) qualified doctors will be chosen based on intelligence...after all I want a smart doctor saving my life not cuz of their race and 2) URMs will gain the respect they deserve later on in life. I shadowed a black anesthesiologist... Brilliant man. He graduated at the top in everything. He said he did anesthisia because he knew people would judge him if he had to see patients. See what I mean? Smart URMs are prejudged later on in life because people thought they got a handout which is sad.

Lol.

Pre-med's ideas:

3.6 GPA - good doctor
3.7 - very good doctor
3.8 - excellent doctor
3.9 - phenomenal doctor
4.0 - best doctor on planet

(same with MCAT)

Reality:

3.6-4.0 - can likely succeed in medical school, time to look @ other stuff
31+ MCAT - will likely succeed in medical school

There's a student who was a middle 3.x's GPA with low 30s MCAT who just went AOA and 250+ on step 1... There are people in his class who perfect stats who did much worse. In the end, who you are is more important than your stats. Stats just open the doors and get interview invites. If you don't have something special than 4.0 and a high MCAT, then you won't always be successful.

 

[lxasylum]

Of course that's your perspective. You've experienced little to no discrimination, have no idea about social history in a lot of states across the united states, and somehow thing that the higher your GPA/MCAT combo the better physician you will make. It funny, if you look at matching statistics even for some comeptitive specialties, some of the 230-240 Step 1 applicants matched higher than the 250-260.... Whhhhatt?

It appears that after an adcom knows that you can be proficient and competent, they will start to seek out other characteristics.

There are 4.0/40s in med school that are cool and that are tools. Med schools will take a rounded, well liked, diverse student body full of competent physicians over just going straight down the GPA/MCAT line.

I understand your perspective, I've had a similar one before. It's really just naievette on how the world works.

I don't think you understand tortles' point. Because from your judgement of his opinion, it makes you assume that all URM have awesome personalities then right? People it seems they are getting some type of advantage when it comes to being a great doctor. Comparing people with high stats and a great personality vs someone with higher stats and a tool personality is after the fact. There are always exceptions. Bottom line is we are dealing with people's lives here. Interviews are there to see if they can filter the people out without a personality, so you can't say much there. Interviews aren't perfect. People can bypass that, but you can't bypass how smart you are in terms of grades and mcats that predict how you will perform in medical school and later on in life.

 

[lxasylum]

Lol.

Pre-med's ideas:

3.6 GPA - good doctor
3.7 - very good doctor
3.8 - excellent doctor
3.9 - phenomenal doctor
4.0 - best doctor on planet

(same with MCAT)

Reality:

3.6-4.0 - can likely succeed in medical school, time to look @ other stuff
31+ MCAT - will likely succeed in medical school

There's a student who was a middle 3.x's GPA with low 30s MCAT who just went AOA and 250+ on step 1... There are people in his class who perfect stats who did much worse. In the end, who you are is more important than your stats. Stats just open the doors and get interview invites. If you don't have something special than 4.0 and a high MCAT, then you won't always be successful.

You STILL don't get the point. There are ALWAYS exceptions. We are talking about URM's getting an advantage before they put their foot in the door. Let me finish my story about the URM student with the 3.1 gpa 25mcat. He had to redo a year. I never said ANYWHERE that people with higher GPAs make better doctors. I'm guessing you're a URM or just someone who has taken offense on a subject matter deeper than GPA and MCAT. No to mention your example is minute because the guy had middle 3.0 GPA and low 30s mcat. Dude that's right near average for MD medical schools, so he's no underdog. Show me a 3.1ish 25mcat like my example who ended up doing a competitive residency and then come back to me.

 

[Jack is Back]

You STILL don't get the point. There are ALWAYS exceptions. We are talking about URM's getting an advantage before they put their foot in the door. Let me finish my story about the URM student with the 3.1 gpa 25mcat. He had to redo a year. I never said ANYWHERE that people with higher GPAs make better doctors. I'm guessing you're a URM or just someone who has taken offense on a subject matter deeper than GPA and MCAT. No to mention your example is minute because the guy had middle 3.0 GPA and low 30s mcat. Dude that's right near average for MD medical schools, so he's no underdog. Show me a 3.1ish 25mcat like my example who ended up doing a competitive residency and then come back to me.

Dude, the individual you are talking about makes up less than 1% of medical school students.

Get over it. Yes, there will be a few people in medical school who didn't get there because of grades. George Bush also went to Yale, and NOT because he had perfect grades and standardize test scores.

Welcome to the real world. Politics and political issue matter now. If an adcom decides they need Joe Blow for XYZ reasons, they will take him. They don't care what you think.

 

[Goro]

What you've posted has NOTHING to do with medical school admissions. Folks, please do not feed the trolls.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Dude, the individual you are talking about makes up less than 1% of medical school students.

Get over it. Yes, there will be a few people in medical school who didn't get there because of grades. George Bush also went to Yale, and NOT because he had perfect grades and standardize test scores.

Welcome to the real world. Politics and political issue matter now. If an adcom decides they need Joe Blow for XYZ reasons, they will take him. They don't care what you think.

You aren't saying anything that I don't already believe, Jack. Of course there's more to being a physician than having outstanding test scores and grades. And to address a previous judgement you made about me, although I myself am not a URM I have seen more than enough through volunteer experience and programs I've started to understand some people's situations growing up, in the workforce, etc. I'm not closed minded to these truths, so please don't judge me like you know what I've seen and experienced.

Let's do a thought-experiment here... let's say person A (white) grows up in the exact same manner as person B (black). Same education, job opportunities, volunteer experiences, etc. Why is it that person B gets an additional advantage over person A, just because he/she is black?

Now let's say that person B is a slacker, and person A works his tail off. Yet person A doesn't get accepted when person B does... Clearly, the URM status gives person B an extra "edge". How is this fair in any way?

The truth is, all races have gone through some intense discrimination at some point. As a brown dude, I can preach on about how we were abused by the british colonists for hundreds of years, blah blah. But you said it yourself, it's HISTORY. And to be blunt... why should the history of a race have any affect on medical school admissions? Or the fact that there aren't as many blacks/hispanics admitted?

Ughh long post, sorry.

 

[Kuba]

my 2 cents: Most med school applicants would be able to successfully graduate and become competent physicians, despite MCAT scores, grades, etc. There is an over-supply of talent.
If I were an adcom I would definitely choose a good mix of different ideals, race, religions, etc. to fill my class and I would ignore 3.6 vs 3.9 or 28 vs 33. This isn't about you. You put your best foot forward and you may have worked harder and gotten better grades than the other guy, but if I already have 10 people just like you, then I will move on to the next guy. Does it suck for you? Yes. Is it fair? I guess that depends on your assumptions. Is the process supposed to be "fair?" Depends on your definition, but I would argue that nowhere is it implied that it's "fair." Fair means if you meet A + B + Z criteria, you're in. That might be good for the individual who meets that criteria, but it's not good for medicine or society as a whole. The privileged will streamline their efforts to meet those criteria while the underprivileged will not have the resources or support systems to compete.
I'm proud the system doesn't work that way, though I wish it would sway even further in the right direction. Ps. I'm a privileged white male.

 

[Kuba]

What you've posted has NOTHING to do with medical school admissions. Folks, please do not feed the trolls.

True, but I enjoy a philosophical argument as much as the next guy.

 

[Postal]

This is not for a medical school program. Instead, it's for a program that I got into at Cal. After writing essays and doing the typical long application, this is how they summarized me:

"Hispanic (6.5)
Poor (2.5)
First in family (2)
A lot of Social Sciences, but a "B" in Chemistry and Bio. (5.5)"

I got an A in bio, but whatever. I also don't know what the scoring meant, but I guess I made the cutoff.

How do I know? Because I asked them for a copy of my personal statement and instead they gave me the application with their notes. Those were their only notes.

I'm sorry, but I'm pissed to be graded by my social conditions rather than my academics, volunteer work, or essays.

I hope med school isn't this stupidly cold with admissions.

Relax. I'm sure med schools put a bit more thought into it than that.

 

[Jack is Back]

You aren't saying anything that I don't already believe, Jack. Of course there's more to being a physician than having outstanding test scores and grades. And to address a previous judgement you made about me, although I myself am not a URM I have seen more than enough through volunteer experience and programs I've started to understand some people's situations growing up, in the workforce, etc. I'm not closed minded to these truths, so please don't judge me like you know what I've seen and experienced.

Let's do a thought-experiment here... let's say person A (white) grows up in the exact same manner as person B (black). Same education, job opportunities, volunteer experiences, etc. Why is it that person B gets an additional advantage over person A, just because he/she is black?

Now let's say that person B is a slacker, and person A works his tail off. Yet person A doesn't get accepted when person B does... Clearly, the URM status gives person B an extra "edge". How is this fair in any way?

The truth is, all races have gone through some intense discrimination at some point. As a brown dude, I can preach on about how we were abused by the british colonists for hundreds of years, blah blah. But you said it yourself, it's HISTORY. And to be blunt... why should the history of a race have any affect on medical school admissions? Or the fact that there aren't as many blacks/hispanics admitted?

Ughh long post, sorry.

It isn't fair. That is the whole point. Life isn't fair. It wasn't fair for that black guy's great great grandfather to be a slave and it isn't fair for his kid to have an advantage on med school applications. It not fair that hot chicks will get jobs over ugly chicks, regardless of skills but it happens. It is fair that people give jobs to family members or friends, but they do.

We could go on all day. BUT, in reality, while you can argue that 5-10% of the admissions pool has some type of edge, medicine is a field that is largely built upon merit. So go and get yours and stop worrying about what everyone else is doing.

I don't deal in "shoulds" or "shouldn'ts" unless I can affect the outcome, and I can't change medical school admissions.

 

[Jack is Back]

my 2 cents: Most med school applicants would be able to successfully graduate and become competent physicians, despite MCAT scores, grades, etc. There is an over-supply of talent.
If I were an adcom I would definitely choose a good mix of different ideals, race, religions, etc. to fill my class and I would ignore 3.6 vs 3.9 or 28 vs 33. This isn't about you. You put your best foot forward and you may have worked harder and gotten better grades than the other guy, but if I already have 10 people just like you, then I will move on to the next guy. Does it suck for you? Yes. Is it fair? I guess that depends on your assumptions. Is the process supposed to be "fair?" Depends on your definition, but I would argue that nowhere is it implied that it's "fair." Fair means if you meet A + B + Z criteria, you're in. That might be good for the individual who meets that criteria, but it's not good for medicine or society as a whole. The privileged will streamline their efforts to meet those criteria while the underprivileged will not have the resources or support systems to compete.
I'm proud the system doesn't work that way, though I wish it would sway even further in the right direction. Ps. I'm a privileged white male.

Agreed with this post.

 

[Everglide]

"Hispanic (6.5)
Poor (2.5)
First in family (2)
A lot of Social Sciences, but a "B" in Chemistry and Bio. (5.5)"

lol them bluntly calling it "Poor"

I hope med school isn't this stupidly cold with admissions.

Actually a lot of them are in regards to screening 1000s of primaries.

 

[lxasylum]

jack, you are probably a urm or just have offense to this because your a non-trad or had something against you to fight this hard. We all have opinions, but if you were indian or chinese, and found out that you actually have a disadvantage because your race statistically outperforms the average, which would require you to go above average to fight for a spot against your own race while someone with lower than average stats can just come in unscathed, you'd be ticked off too. I feel bad for those people. I know some people deserve better and that is what sucks. I'll repeat this again. If a urm gets accepted to medical school because he is on par with medical school stats or above, then he EARNED his spot. Because let's face it, he probably would have gotten into medical school regardless of his urm status. Medical school is all about stats, at least MD programs. That is why I DO has a friendlier method. They don't have this race effect show through as dramatic because they look at the whole application, not just grades. So let's not talk about how great doctors can come from average or subpar scores, it's been proven in DO schools each year over and over. I really wished you all would read what I had to say about the black anesthesiologist I shadowed. He went to UMich and was at the top, but was afraid people thought he had a hand out so he did anesthesiology because he said he wouldn't have to deal with the bias because they wont see the color of his skin until surgery day. This is why the system has to change so the legit urms don't have to deal with people thinking they got it easy in med school. If I wanted to throw fire into this. I'd straight up say, why is Howard and Meharry more or less designated for blacks? How is this fair? I'm being serious, too. Why does this system allow for a medical school to be predominantly black? Why do they get a special school just for them? Why isn't there a medical school for just whites or asians etc? This is the issue we were talking about. Not GPA, not MCAT. Race needs to be eliminated. You pick the people you like and if they so happen to be a URM then fine, but dont pick people just to say you need a particular percentage or the university gets in trouble for discrimination.

This is just for college but the same issue applies in medical school. Read it and tell me it's wrong to shift the requirements in the reverse direction for asian people.

http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/06/disadvantages-of-asian-applicants-to-universities.html

I'm done here.

 

[Iliketoytles]

I think what's ruining this philosophical conversation is the fact that many are not interpreting what other people are saying properly. This is a good conversation though, nothing is meant to be personal here... at least from me.

Jack, you're not getting what I'm saying. You don't have to tell me that there are things in life that happen that isn't fair, because I understand this completely. But to compare this to a hot girl getting a job over an ugly one isn't a fair comparison... this is medical school where there are thousands of applicants, hundreds of which are average/over-qualified for the position. And to think that some great applicants don't get a spot because the school has to accept a certain percentage of URMs who may not deserve the spot (due to lacking of grades, volunteer experience, etc.) is a huge problem. Yes it's not fair. Yes I know things in life aren't fair. But this is something that can easily be fixed. And for someone to make an excuse and say "this is life, deal with it" are the same ones that are either 1) afraid of positive change, or 2) don't take initiative to make a positive difference in something.

I'm not saying this is you, but please don't give me the whole "life isn't fair, deal with it" speech. While it does apply in some cases, there are many in which it doesn't.

And when talking about how there needs to be diversity in healthcare... well... why? Everyone has different personalities and medical skills. Why does there need to be a certain 3:1:2:1:1 ratio among races in the medical field? Who cares what the doctors race is.

And while I agree that coming from underprivileged backgrounds may be an experience that some may not have, not everyone coming from these backgrounds are automatically better applicants just because they have overcome this adversity.

My MAIN issue with this whole thing is, why generalize giving ALL african american or hispanic applicants this kind of advantage? It should be on an applicant-by-applicant basis. I would much rather have applicants living in poverty, who are barely able to pay for the application process alone, given the advantage (whether they are white, black, hispanic, asian, etc) than an ENTIRE race given an "edge" simply because of their race!! It's absurd.

 

[Kuba]

I think what's ruining this philosophical conversation is the fact that many are not interpreting what other people are saying properly. This is a good conversation though, nothing is meant to be personal here... at least from me.

Jack, you're not getting what I'm saying. You don't have to tell me that there are things in life that happen that isn't fair, because I understand this completely. But to compare this to a hot girl getting a job over an ugly one isn't a fair comparison... this is medical school where there are thousands of applicants, hundreds of which are average/over-qualified for the position. And to think that some great applicants don't get a spot because the school has to accept a certain percentage of URMs who may not deserve the spot (due to lacking of grades, volunteer experience, etc.) is a huge problem. Yes it's not fair. Yes I know things in life aren't fair. But this is something that can easily be fixed. And for someone to make an excuse and say "this is life, deal with it" are the same ones that are either 1) afraid of positive change, or 2) don't take initiative to make a positive difference in something.

I'm not saying this is you, but please don't give me the whole "life isn't fair, deal with it" speech. While it does apply in some cases, there are many in which it doesn't.

And when talking about how there needs to be diversity in healthcare... well... why? Everyone has different personalities and medical skills. Why does there need to be a certain 3:1:2:1:1 ratio among races in the medical field? Who cares what the doctors race is.

And while I agree that coming from underprivileged backgrounds may be an experience that some may not have, not everyone coming from these backgrounds are automatically better applicants just because they have overcome this adversity.

My MAIN issue with this whole thing is, why generalize giving ALL african american or hispanic applicants this kind of advantage? It should be on an applicant-by-applicant basis. I would much rather have applicants living in poverty, who are barely able to pay for the application process alone, given the advantage (whether they are white, black, hispanic, asian, etc) than an ENTIRE race given an "edge" simply because of their race!! It's absurd.

But should it be "fixed?" I don't think it's broken. Do I think someone should get into medical school just because they are a certain race? No. But if there are enough capable black/hispanic/native american applicants coming from a less advantageous position in life, then I think which should give them an edge in the admission process. Our physician population should be representative of our society.

 

[poopyhead]

Medicine cares more about the fact that if we don't have enough URM doctors, people won't get the right treatment or treatment at all. Cultural and social barriers do exist.

Triage, you know we PM back-and-forth, so please don't take this the wrong way. However, I would like to point out that Asian Americans still watch professional sports, watch Hollywood movies, and listen to pop music despite the severe lack of Asians in many these fields. It is possible to relate to people of different racial groups.

Chances of a black or Hispanic applicant coming from poverty are much greater than white or Asian.

In this case, wouldn't it be better to give advantages based purely on financial background, regardless of race? Hypothetically, a wealthy African American probably had more advantages in life than a poor white, living below the poverty line.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Yes, I can indeed call you my friend. I wouldn't get offended.

Watching sports, Hollywood movies, and listening to pop music is very different than going to the doctor for many people. When is the last time that talking about an infection in your urethra felt the same as watching Monday night football? I'd like it if it (race) were a non-issue, but it is an issue. This is also why we need white doctors in rural white places. Chances there are greater that people will see them than an Asian doctor born in China with a slight accent.

Financial background makes sense, which is why we have the disadvantaged status, but we still live in a country where race matters to people; therefore, we have to deal with it the most pragmatical way.

This is where I was coming from. The financial background status makes much more sense than the "race status". Triage, I understand what you mean. Some patients tend to judge their doctor based on their race, as well as other things. It's natural, and very common. While this is said, I too have volunteered and developed many programs with minority groups and underpriviledged communities, so I have a decent grasp of the struggles they must overcome. And I admit I was too hasty when I said that diversity among physician races wasn't important. Clearly it is (as mentioned above), so I wish to take that statement back. I wasn't thinking properly.

However, I do feel that this URM policy gives an advantage to many people who do not DESERVE the advantage! The people who deserve this "edge" should be based on financial status, and possibly among other things as well. The fact is that the majority of underprivileged people in the US come from african american or hispanic descents... so let these INDIVIDUALS get the help, not generalize that every african american is considered URM. Yes they are an under-represented minority in healthcare, but if they are floating on money... well, they should be treated like any other applicant who has to get good grades, volunteer, etc. to get into medical school. The people who deserve the advantage are, again, the financially underprivileged individuals who still manage to go through college and apply to medical school. Sure their grades and volunteer experiences may not be up to parr, but their backgrounds logically compensate for that. And the fact that most of the underprivileged are indeed what we consider URMs, this automatically balances itself out. See what I mean? 🙂

And I want to say one more time, that I don't intend for this to be personal. I admit I come from a "majority", and have not really had to face any financial difficulty as many do. I understand how it works though, which is my my main issue is that any "edge" should be given on a financial basis, not generalized by entire racial communities. When the advantage is given to the financially underprivileged, it indirectly appeals to the "URM"s as well, so it's a win-win situation. That's all. 😉

 

[Jack is Back]

jack, you are probably a urm or just have offense to this because your a non-trad or had something against you to fight this hard. We all have opinions, but if you were indian or chinese, and found out that you actually have a disadvantage because your race statistically outperforms the average, which would require you to go above average to fight for a spot against your own race while someone with lower than average stats can just come in unscathed, you'd be ticked off too. I feel bad for those people. I know some people deserve better and that is what sucks. I'll repeat this again. If a urm gets accepted to medical school because he is on par with medical school stats or above, then he EARNED his spot. Because let's face it, he probably would have gotten into medical school regardless of his urm status. Medical school is all about stats, at least MD programs. That is why I DO has a friendlier method. They don't have this race effect show through as dramatic because they look at the whole application, not just grades. So let's not talk about how great doctors can come from average or subpar scores, it's been proven in DO schools each year over and over. I really wished you all would read what I had to say about the black anesthesiologist I shadowed. He went to UMich and was at the top, but was afraid people thought he had a hand out so he did anesthesiology because he said he wouldn't have to deal with the bias because they wont see the color of his skin until surgery day. This is why the system has to change so the legit urms don't have to deal with people thinking they got it easy in med school. If I wanted to throw fire into this. I'd straight up say, why is Howard and Meharry more or less designated for blacks? How is this fair? I'm being serious, too. Why does this system allow for a medical school to be predominantly black? Why do they get a special school just for them? Why isn't there a medical school for just whites or asians etc? This is the issue we were talking about. Not GPA, not MCAT. Race needs to be eliminated. You pick the people you like and if they so happen to be a URM then fine, but dont pick people just to say you need a particular percentage or the university gets in trouble for discrimination.

This is just for college but the same issue applies in medical school. Read it and tell me it's wrong to shift the requirements in the reverse direction for asian people.

http://www.eyedrd.org/2011/06/disadvantages-of-asian-applicants-to-universities.html

I'm done here.

Race can't be eliminated. It is a factor.

The system in place right now deals with it fine. The reason there are no Asian schools is because Asians are over represented. There are like twice as many in medical school compared to the population.

Yes, I am a URM. I had no intention of hiding the fact. I'm at a top 25 USNews school. I worked my ass off to get my seat. And Med School, "isn't all about stats." You obviously have no experience or social cognizance. There are so many smart people in the application pool right now that you can select for MORE than stats. 3.6-4.0 is all the same GPA. MCATs? 31+ is relatively the same also. Do schools drool over a 40 vs a 34? Not really. There is a point where they say, "ok, he take take standardized tests." This is something that upsets all the cookie cutter applicants with no personalities or interviewing skills each year.

Race affects people's perspectives and some schools would like more diversity.

If a school had 170 Asian people, 1 black guy, 8 white dudes, and 1 hispanic chick, how cool of a class would that be?

Adcoms will always try to get diversity. You will know why when you get to medical school. Having 180 of the same people would be a super lame class.

 

[Jack is Back]

This is where I was coming from. The financial background status makes much more sense than the "race status".

I agree this would be an excellent factor to put in BUT it is too hard to measure.

The other thing that you guys are not understanding are IVY schools like rich students. They like people who have traveled to Europe or Africa for a mission trip. They people who learn 3 languages because they to amazing schools since 1st grade.

American society has always favored the wealthy and this isn't going to change anytime soon. In fact, it is only getting worse. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer.

 

[Jack is Back]

Good luck to you all, I have Anatomy to do that is much more important. Jack out.

Work hard, focus on things you can control (NOT adcom's preferences on URM) and put together your best application.

Don't waste time on things you can't control. I understand everyone has different opinions and it's funny, I know some people think that I slid into school because of being a URM. So I have to deal with this crap too.

The thing that usually pisses me off are all the, "25 MCAT and 3.1 GPA" stories.

First of all, those are probably at the black schools, second of all, that's like what, 50 medical students out of 17,000. Yet we hear the stories about the 0.1% of the application pool that is somehow ruining it for the other 99.9%... Just wow.

 

[thejll]

1. White people don't like Asians and should be served by white doctors.

2. Hispanics don't like gringos and should be served by Hispanic doctors.

3. Blacks don't like whites and should be served by black doctors.

4. Everyone should go to a doctor that is like them.

5. A doctor should serve their own kind.

 

[lxasylum]

This is just something for you guys to ponder about because it is interesting to me. Not trying to offend anyone. This is just to provoke a though...

If you guys are suggesting using financial status as a method of replacing the URM system, then I will be up to that proposal rather than by race. I can see how living in poverty will have an affect in how you do in elementary, middle, perhaps high school...but here is where I ask you guys this. How long can one use the excuse that being from a low-income family affected their performance towards medical school? If they got past 4 years of undergrad to apply, I'm sure that being in poverty has no affect anymore. Right? In the end it's about effort most of you guys said. Once you're in med school, GPA and MCAT are out the window and it's about how hard you work to become a great doctor.

I came from an asian background. My parents came over here when they were teens. They came from a farming community. I grew up working for 4 years since 14 up until high school for 12-15 hours a week (child labor laws don't allow us to work too much at a young age). No one felt sorry for my dad and mom when they came over as teenagers with no money in their pockets. They worked their butts off and told me to do the same so that I wouldn't have to struggle like they did. I wasn't in poverty, but that's because my parents worked hard to get to where they were. In essence, isn't this what we are arguing? It's effort that good people are putting in that should be rewarded.

No one can ignore my example about Howard and Meharry medical school. They are for the most part for african american. Some of you guys mentioned something to the tone of, "well they aren't letting people in with like 19 mcat etc" (or something like that). If so, why does Howard give an interview for 22 MCAT and 3.0 science gpa? Wait what?! Get that outta here. You can't even walk into an interview at any other university with a 3.5gpa 28 mcat (hardly). I mean they got a WHOLE school for them! 2 in fact! It's about effort people.

That is why it's called a scholarship when someone works hard to get good grades. They are rewarded for it. So that ends that discussion. If anyone wants to make comments then I welcome it. It's fine.

Last comment. The URM advantage is real. We have seen the stats that AAMC even posts. We can't lie and ignore the GPA vs MCAT graphs for each group of races and likelihood of acceptance created by I forget who on SDN. Think hard for a second about this. I'm sure we all met people who were partially a urm. Distant great great grandfather/mother etc that past their blood line down to said person. It's not like her dad or mom was a URM! It's a distant ancestor! But why is it that they fight so hard to put it down on their application that they are a URM? The reason is that it's an advantage! It's a way to abuse the system or circumvent the validity or genuineness of the URM system. It was made with good intentions no doubt, but trust me, it gives an advantage so people abuse and use it. For those who are URM. Let's say you faced this person and they took your spot in medical school. Triage, I respect you man because from what I've seen, you try to give people some good advice. I ask you this, would you be made if you (im assuming) being pure hispanic, got your spot taken away by someone who was predominantly a non-URM, but had a distant relative that was hispanic? or would you say, oh well I guess he/she beat me fair and square? I'll leave it at that. I hope you guys see the flaws and why shear effort, which translates to high gpa and mcat do become the deciding factor and why race should not hold too much power.

 

[lxasylum]

Good luck to you all, I have Anatomy to do that is much more important. Jack out.

Work hard, focus on things you can control (NOT adcom's preferences on URM) and put together your best application.

Don't waste time on things you can't control. I understand everyone has different opinions and it's funny, I know some people think that I slid into school because of being a URM. So I have to deal with this crap too.

The thing that usually pisses me off are all the, "25 MCAT and 3.1 GPA" stories.

First of all, those are probably at the black schools, second of all, that's like what, 50 medical students out of 17,000. Yet we hear the stories about the 0.1% of the application pool that is somehow ruining it for the other 99.9%... Just wow.

I hope you understood the point I was getting at earlier though about the black anesthesiologist. I told you that the system causes the good URM students (like you) to look bad. Also remember that in terms of medical school, asians are a far second to whites. If you flip through the AAMC book, there's like 15-25% max for most. The rest are whites, same for DO. Anyway, good luck on your exam!

Edit: Ok I lied. I looked it up. AAMC current totals are 60% white, 22% asian, 7% black, 1% native american/alaskan, and 8% hispanic and like 2% other.

So if you lump the URM together you get 16%. That's a lot compared to 22% asian when you do it based on population ratio.

 

[Iliketoytles]

I see where everyone is coming from in this conversation. There are some really good perspectives in this thread.

Just to add, I wasn't trying to be bitter. I have several interviews already lined up... I was just speaking out on a policy I found controversial. It's always fun to stir the pot a bit, lol.

One thing I want to address is that I agree that diversity is important, and that some races are indeed underrepresented in the medical applicant pool... but it's hard to believe that schools have to scrounge for well qualified hispanic applicants. The fact is that the majority of the population in the US is white... so of course most medical schools will be admitting white, qualified applicants because the pool is bigger for this race (more to choose from). But to say that a school doesn't have at LEAST 20-30 well qualified, competitive hispanic applicants who deserve a spot simply because they are qualified (good volunteer work, grades, etc.) seems unlikely! Ultimately, they don't need a URM "edge" because there are enough URM applicants that can compete at an equal level with non-URM applicants.

"American society has always favored the wealthy and this isn't going to change anytime soon. In fact, it is only getting worse. The rich are getting richer and the poor are getting poorer."

This is an unfortunate truth.

 

[lxasylum]

Triage, I knew about Moorehouse, but couldn't remember the name. I noted the 2 medical schools with exclamation to make a point, not to show anger. I am no way angry at anything. It's to prove a point that they have their "own" school yet still get an advantage elsewhere. I bet if an Asian applied to those 3 schools, he wouldn't be a URM now would he? hah...I think not.

As for your comment about being lucky for being Asian...

I hope you realize that although you are right that the percentage of medical acceptances for blacks and hispanics are low in comparison to per US population ratio. If you want to compare in that sense, you should compare the ratio between college asian population and those that go to med school and that of URMs that go to college and get accepted to medical school ratio. That would be most fair because if you don't go to college... you won't be able to go to medical school...just pointing out a possible flaw in your argument for how I am "lucky to be asian and we have more people in medical school". I'm not lucky at the least to be asian. Based on percentages, it's better to be white.

Generally no matter what asian you are, the guy next to you, Indian, Chinese, Pakastani, Korean, etc. are gunning to be doctors, lawyers, engineers, etc. Most blacks and hispanics aren't gunning to be doctors since birth, so the competition between your own people is hard to find.

 

[Iliketoytles]

I really don't think your argument about college graduates for comparison is very good. Again, Asian folks are over-represented in college compared to the general public. At my college, Asians were 40%+ of the college population vs. 4.8 in the public. Now think about why that is. Is it because Asian people are genetically smarter or better? No. It's simply the way society views Asians and the way Asian parents raise their kids. On the other hand, black and Hispanics are usually being told, by their own parents, that they are too stupid to succeed or that college is only meant for rich people.

So when you think about "fairness" in college admissions, remember that being an Asian means you're more likely to come from parents that pushed you into going to college and society believed you were innately capable of succeeding, whereas being black/Hispanic is the opposite. So when you "fix" for that variable, you'll realize that stats may be higher and more demanding for Asian people, but you will also find that opportunities and everything else is much more available for Asian people. In layman's terms, your argument is basically centering around saying that a regular person and a paraplegic should be running the same marathon.

Very well said, and I totally agree with the above. However, this does not solve the issue I raised about how URM status generalizes far too much. You are absolutely right in your above post, but not all blacks or Hispanics are being told they can't make it, or college is for the rich. There are many, many black and Hispanics that have the same opportunities as Asians. And... I figure if they are applying to medical school, they have broken past the "college is for the rich and people will look down on your intelligence in life because your Hispanic" stuff.

I looked at that .pdf you linked, and it still seems to me that my previous point of there being numerous well qualified URM applicants is accurate. Again, I'd much rather give any additional "edge" to someone for financial reasons. And since Hispanics and black populations have the most people in financial stress (didn't mean for this to come across as racist... it's a fact), then by simply screening for applicants who are under financial stress and giving them the "edge", you will automatically give the Hispanics and black communities "URM" status. But it should be on an individual basis... I'd rather have my spot at a school taken by an asian who lived in poverty all his life, but still managed to get good grades and has tons of ECs, than for a school to fill this spot with a URM who is floating on money ... simply because they have to meet their URM quota. It might mean one less Hispanic or black person in medical school, which may reduce the diversity.... maybe the school can make up for it in next years' applicant pool. 🙄

 

[Iliketoytles]

The way I see it is that there isn't any other "better" system that is also practical. While I do agree financial disadvantage should be the leading factor, I must stress again that there are universal things among blacks and Hispanic. For example, people walk up to me and talk to me in Spanish. These are complete strangers. Does this happen to an Asian or black person? Nope. And like my previous example, does coming from a good background make it less likely to be called a racial slur by a racist? Nope. There are universal experiences by people of color regardless of their income.

I think the same can be said of most races. Every time I walk into a gas station convenient store or a dry cleaner, the owner (usually south asian) talks to me in Hindi or Gujarati. I've never seen them before in my life. I've had white people say "Namaste" to me, jokingly. I tend to laugh, because it's halarious... but this happens to asians as well.

And especially being a brown dude the past decade, well...ya. I was at this coffee shop on 9/11 a couple weeks ago... there was this pakistani (I think) couple sitting reading the newspaper across the room, they were being eyed the whole time. I can't speak for all races, but it seems like there is always some struggle that one race has to go through compared to the others. It's difficult to quantify one person's difficulty is "more" than someone elses, you know?

I suppose the only solution to this whole issue (as well as many other issues that plague the world) is to cure the ignorance of man. Oh boy... lol. 😉

But let's just agree to disagree on some parts of this discussion (although, there are many points I think we all agree on). This was a fun discussion! 🙂

 

[Jeeps]

Who cares! Man you call me genatalia pokadotson and list me poor broke and purple. As long as you get in.
I have thick skin, so allot of stuff rolls right off.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Who cares! Man you call me genatalia pokadotson and list me poor broke and purple. As long as you get in.
I have thick skin, so allot of stuff rolls right off.

Are you a reptile?

 

[Mbeas]

As much as I hate these discussions, there are obviously some very misinformed (and dare I say ignorant) people on SDN; so it's good that we have them every once in a while.

 

[Kuba]

The way I see it is that there isn't any other "better" system that is also practical. While I do agree financial disadvantage should be the leading factor, I must stress again that there are universal things among blacks and Hispanic. For example, people walk up to me and talk to me in Spanish. These are complete strangers. Does this happen to an Asian or black person? Nope. And like my previous example, does coming from a good background make it less likely to be called a racial slur by a racist? Nope. There are universal experiences by people of color regardless of their income.

Medical schools want to fill their classes with both financial and racial diversity. The current system is the most practical. As for the data, we'll have to disagree. While there are applicants with 3.9/39 that are Black or Hispanic, these are a small number, and given that they have an over 95% success rate, it's obvious to me that they aren't discriminating the "good" applicants but instead have a small pool of people to get more from. With the table you see, 8% of medical school is Hispanic while the population is double. There's already a huge compromise of 1/2 of the amount of Hispanics being represented.

Actually, in south florida where I studied, people approached me in spanish quite often even though I am blonde, blue eyed. These are people that speak English just fine, by the way.

 

[willen101383]

Not touching the URM thing...but here is something I have an issue with: people getting special accommodations on med school exams. Sucks...but not everyone is cut out to be a doc. What you going to get special accommodations on everything throughout your career? Straight up scary to me.

And by special accommodations I mean...people needing extra time for exams because they have learning disabilities etc....not because of physical issues necessitating extra time.

 

[Iliketoytles]

Not touching the URM thing...but here is something I have an issue with: people getting special accommodations on med school exams. Sucks...but not everyone is cut out to be a doc. What you going to get special accommodations on everything throughout your career? Straight up scary to me.

And by special accommodations I mean...people needing extra time for exams because they have learning disabilities etc....not because of physical issues necessitating extra time.

Must...not...comment....... GAHHH!! I can't help it, I must... lol. 😛

It's difficult to imagine what life is like for someone with a learning disability. I've spent years volunteering with autistic kids. They are incredible people, really. But their outbursts which would normally drive people up the wall are really not their fault... it's not like they can finish an exam on time if they just try real hard. Kids with learning disabilities need this extra time. I'd imagine if they had a choice, they would trade in this special accomodation they have for a "normal" brain (for lack of a better phrase) in a heartbeat.

And having TA-ed many, many classes.... not all kids with learning disabilities get this extra time. Some teachers take it into account; some teachers don't care. I kinda have a soft spot for kids with these learning disabilities... not because I have it too, but because I've seen it destroy people's ambitions. "Why should I try if, no matter how hard I try, I am mentally unable to keep up?" etc...