For the record, Canadian grads are not considered IMGs. Their med schools are indirectly part of the LCME.Waiting4Ganong said:As for that old b*llocks about FMGs not getting top competitive specialties - it is just not true. Check the Freida site for the actual numbers - 9.1% of trainee neurosurgeons in the US are FMGs - that is 70 out of 775. Pretty high level considering only a small fraction of the real superstars from non-US schools go to US for residency. Similar high representation in Ophthalmology (6.9%) and Derm (3.6%). So that is almost 200 FMGs currently training in the very most competitive of the specialties in the US (70 neurosurgery FMG residents + 87 Ophthalmology FMG residents and 36 derm FMG residents) who didn't listen to the "oh, it is impossible for FMGs to get into XYZ in the US" nonsense. These people had to come from somewhere. I willing to bet a LARGE number of them came from UK and Canadian Medical Schools.
Perhaps, if the British grad beat the SGU grad's USMLE scores.Waiting4Ganong said:Residency directors can work out the difference between a US student who got rejected from every US medical school and ended up with an MD from Grenada say, and the British lad who got AAAAA at A-level and won all the prizes and the academic firm housejobs at Cambridge Medical School.
I have no desire to start a useless flame war, but having seen a bit of both as a medical student, I have a different opinion. North American training seemed far more intensive and focused (perhaps it is due to the hours). When I compared North American PGY1s (and highly motivated MS4s) to UK SHOs, I felt that the North Americans beat the British hands down.johnny_blaze said:I hope I dont sound sarcastic and Im not implying that what I hear is BS its just that I speak to a lot of consultants about US/CAN medicine (the topic always comes up because Im Canadian) and they dont seem at all that impressed with north American training. The one benefit I can see is that you can probably work as an attending for a couple years (and earn good $$) and then comeback to the U.K for a consultant job if you really wanted too
4.3% based on my spreadsheet, but close enough.Waiting4Ganong said:I think these 200 (or 571) out of 24,000 stats aren't useful. The budding neurosurgeon from the UK is never going to turn down a place at Queens Square to do a Family Practice Residency in Anytown, USA. What matters is how many spots in the competitive programs are taken up by FMGs. From the figures Miklos has kindly provided us I'd ballpark it at a median percentage of about 5%. That to me means if you are good, there are places available. Which is fair. Of course some boardline candidates will get spaces if they come from US schools while they would not match with the small scores/skills as a FMG - but so what, that seems fair and proper.
Im sorry if I gave the impression that I was interested in getting into a debate about the quality of US vs UK training I assure everyone that I wasnt. I was just stating ideas I had based on what some consultants told me about US docs they had work with/for them.Miklos said:I have no desire to start a useless flame war, but having seen a bit of both as a medical student, I have a different opinion. North American training seemed far more intensive and focused (perhaps it is due to the hours). When I compared North American PGY1s (and highly motivated MS4s) to UK SHOs, I felt that the North Americans beat the British hands down.
Miklos said:Regarding the number of UK grads who do make it to the US, please see http://www.ecfmg.org/annuals/2002/certstan.html Exhibit 4 (it is the latest that the ECFMG has made public). It shows that a total of 44 UK grads and 60 with UK citizenship received ECFMG standard certifications in 2002. It seems highly unlikely to me that all of them achieved residencies in highly competitive programs. Contrast this to the number of students from Grenada (384) or India (1,180).
Most of those IMGs are US Citizens who graduated from off shore schools!Miklos said:For the record, Canadian grads are not considered IMGs. Their med schools are indirectly part of the LCME.
Regarding numbers (also from FREIDA), take a look at the selected specialities below.
Col1 = % of IMGs, Col2 = total # of res. in that specialty, Col3= absolute # of IMGs in that specialty
ENT 1.9% 1071 20
Ortho 2.0% 3024 60
Derm 3.6% 994 36
EM 4.4% 3909 172
Urology 5.1% 1038 53
Plastics 5.8% 556 32
Ophth. 6.9% 1260 87
Rad-Onc 8.0% 494 40
Neurosurg 9.1% 775 71
Transition 9.2% 1183 109
Rad-Diag 9.8% 4044 396
Ob/Gyn 21.0% 4681 983
Surg 21.5% 7623 1639
Anesth. 26.7% 4719 1260
Peds 29.5% 7773 2293
FP 33.5% 9529 3192
PM&R 34.90% 1120 391
Neuro 38.0% 1339 509
Psych 42.0% 4522 1899
IM 48.9% 21351 10441
Totals 29% 81005 23683
There are 571 IMGs training in the very competitive specialties (ENT to Neurosurg) out of a population of 23,683 IMG residents. This means that 2.4% of all IMG residents (in our sample) are in these residencies.
I'll let those numbers speak for themselves.
Perhaps, if the British grad beat the SGU grad's USMLE scores.
If you are referring to IMG residents that are in competitive programs, that point has been made by f_w.Insider said:Most of those IMGs are US Citizens who graduated from off shore schools!
You're either an IMG or you're not! Within the IMG lot, you are either American or you aren't.Miklos said:If you are referring to IMG residents that are in competitive programs, that point has been made by f_w.
Regarding the overall population of IMGs, the ECFMG says that about 6,000 total IMGs attain residency positions in the US each year. For a numerical discussion about this and the distribution of IMGs, see http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=148928
This is very true. I am the only person I know in my medical school actually thinking about leaving the country to go to US/CAN for training. The British medical system does have its flaws (in my opinion) but does also have advantages that keeps majority of its graduates in the country. I think the main reason its so easy for me to consider leaving is due to the fact that I dont have any British ties and theres really no reason for me to stay.f_w said:There are indeed not many UK colleagues looking for residencies in the US. Probably for the same reasons that we don't see many french or swiss physicians in the US. The general economic conditions in these countries as well as the medical environment just don't create too much of a pressure to look elsewhere .