How bad is the lifestyle for surgeons?

[CuriousMDStudent]

I am a MS2 interested in a competitive surgical specialty. I've been engaged in research and making connections in this specialty since I started med school. Whenever, I mention I want to do it, people tell me "Oh I once considered something surgical until I did my surgical clerkship and realized I don't want to do this for the rest of my life" and I've noticed a lot of people choosing specialties with lifestyle in mind.

I hold no judgment against choosing a specialty with lifestyle in mind. It's important. I'm interested in my specialty or something surgical because I've interviewed a lot of patients and realized quickly that I don't think I can do a specialty where all I do is interview patients as it gets boring for me so I think I want to do something with a mix of clinical and surgery.

However, I'm scared. What if I end up being miserable in my specialty because the life is too difficult. (Waking up at 4 AM or long hours) People also tell me they choose lifestyle because they want to make sure they have time for family outside of the hospital. I'm someone who's never really thought about that. My thought process is to find a career/specialty I love and everything will fall in place. I'm also single so I'm not sure if I'll ever be lucky enough to find that special someone. I do want a family but I don't know if this is something I should consider when choosing a specialty. Hence, I've always prioritized my interest in the specialty. But I wonder if I should leverage lifestyle more into my thought process.

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[ACSurgeon]

- don’t listen to anyone outside the specialty telling you how bad that specialty is

- surgical jobs can be cush (large group, few weekends and holidays). Lifestyle surgery jobs are still harder than straight Monday-Friday clinic jobs, but can be fairly good nonetheless

- if you decide to become a surgeon, you almost have to do it with sacrificing lifestyle in mind and be pleasantly surprised when it’s better than you thought. It takes 5-8 years to finish residency and fellowship and another 5-10 years as an attending before you hit your stride as a surgeon. So, you’re giving up a large amount of your youth before you finally feel like it’s a fun hobby with good hours.

- if you like it, it’s worth it.

- wait until you do rotations to rule anything out. For now, do your homework and keep an open mind. The rest will work out

 

[YCAGA]

- don’t listen to anyone outside the specialty telling you how bad that specialty is

- surgical jobs can be cush (large group, few weekends and holidays). Lifestyle surgery jobs are still harder than straight Monday-Friday clinic jobs, but can be fairly good nonetheless

- if you decide to become a surgeon, you almost have to do it with sacrificing lifestyle in mind and be pleasantly surprised when it’s better than you thought. It takes 5-8 years to finish residency and fellowship and another 5-10 years as an attending before you hit your stride as a surgeon. So, you’re giving up a large amount of your youth before you finally feel like it’s a fun hobby with good hours.

- if you like it, it’s worth it.

- wait until you do rotations to rule anything out. For now, do your homework and keep an open mind. The rest will work out

Great stuff. Semi-related, do you think the shift work possibilities in ACS are a net win for lifestyle?

 

[ACSurgeon]

Great stuff. Semi-related, do you think the shift work possibilities in ACS are a net win for lifestyle?

I do. My full time job is two weeks one and two off. The two on is half call and half back up call/clinic. I pick up icu on my weeks for to keep up skills and for extra pay, but in theory I can be off 50% of the time and have an easy time 25% of the time and only crazy stressed 25% of the time.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I don’t sleep. I don’t eat. I never see my kids.











Jk. I actually do all of those things regularly. I love my job and wouldn’t choose any other specialty if I went back. I do get up at 4AM though, depending on the rotation, but I’m almost always home by 5-6. One 24hr shift a month. 2 golden weekends/month almost always. My program is very busy operative case wise and all of us manage to maintain fairly decent schedules and lives outside the hospital. My average hours in the hospital are typically ~70

 

[Maximus2020]

I considered orthopedic surgery for the first 3 years of med school, did my surgery rotation, hated it, and have been happy ever since choosing a ROAD specialty over surgery. I earn more and work much, much less than surgeons, and reap the great family-oriented lifestyle that affords.

I have the utmost respect for surgeons, but I also would never choose such a life. I don't agree with the first response to this thread about not listening to anyone outside the specialty tell you how bad it is. I have friends who pursued surgery, I teach rotating surgical residents, and I work with surgeons daily.

As with any job, it's all about the bang for the buck. If you are cool with $200-300K/year, then yes, you can have your lifestyle job as a surgeon. If you seek $400K+ and especially $500K+, I would be very hesitant to believe any surgeon saying a cush lifestyle is common. Impossible? No - but very rare. More likely, you will be grinding/working insanely to make that and, in your off hours, will be exhausted.

I recall a surgeon giving a lecture at my med school who said he watched his kids grow up on video recordings his wife took daily. Sounds horrible. Spending 5 years+ as a slave resident +/- fellowship and then working up the chain as an attending in today's society of declining reimbursements is a brutal mountain to climb. Be careful and choose your specialty wisely.

 

[Lawpy]

wait until you do rotations to rule anything out.

I considered orthopedic surgery for the first 3 years of med school, did my surgery rotation, hated it, and have been happy ever since choosing a ROAD specialty over surgery

See the thing is it sucks to end up on a crappy surgery site for rotations and write off the specialty entirely because of that bad experience. That's the downside of making specialty decisions based on rotation experiences

 

[operaman]

Yeah definitely talk to people actually practicing the specialty. There are definitely longer hours than your purely clinic based fields, but it’s really whatever you make of it. Like any field, the more “must have” elements in a job, the harder to find. If you want high pay and great lifestyle, you may struggle to find that in a highly desirable area.

I’m just beginning my attending practice so my hours are probably a little longer than I’d like them to be simply because I’m not as efficient and my hospital is learning what I do and what I need. Most days I leave home around 7:45 and leave the office around 6:00 with all paperwork done. My goal is to get clinic days down to leaving at 5, but that’s hard with days of all brand new patients and completely full schedules. Obviously this will get better as I get more established. My OR days vary depending on what I’m doing but those tend to start earlier - out the door by 6:15 and home around 3 or 4.

Once I’m fully flying I’m making one full day an admin day. Right now I have a half day but my OR day hasn’t been full much yet so it’s functioned as additional admin time. That’s starting to change though so probably by Jan/Feb I’ll make it a full day. Call for me is 1:6.

So for me that’s a busy AF new attending, I’m looking at 4 days a week. Most days kind of 8-5/6, one day 7-3. It’s definitely not the derm 4 days a week working 8-3 with no call, but it’s hardly grueling.

I will say the one big lifestyle issue with surgery is that there is usually an element of unpredictability. All it takes is a complication or some emergency and I may have to go in at odd hours or stay much later. You can minimize this by being a good surgeon and by knowing your limits, but some element of this will always exist especially when you’re new like me.

 

[ACSurgeon]

Yeah definitely talk to people actually practicing the specialty. There are definitely longer hours than your purely clinic based fields, but it’s really whatever you make of it. Like any field, the more “must have” elements in a job, the harder to find. If you want high pay and great lifestyle, you may struggle to find that in a highly desirable area.

I’m just beginning my attending practice so my hours are probably a little longer than I’d like them to be simply because I’m not as efficient and my hospital is learning what I do and what I need. Most days I leave home around 7:45 and leave the office around 6:00 with all paperwork done. My goal is to get clinic days down to leaving at 5, but that’s hard with days of all brand new patients and completely full schedules. Obviously this will get better as I get more established. My OR days vary depending on what I’m doing but those tend to start earlier - out the door by 6:15 and home around 3 or 4.

Once I’m fully flying I’m making one full day an admin day. Right now I have a half day but my OR day hasn’t been full much yet so it’s functioned as additional admin time. That’s starting to change though so probably by Jan/Feb I’ll make it a full day. Call for me is 1:6.

So for me that’s a busy AF new attending, I’m looking at 4 days a week. Most days kind of 8-5/6, one day 7-3. It’s definitely not the derm 4 days a week working 8-3 with no call, but it’s hardly grueling.

I will say the one big lifestyle issue with surgery is that there is usually an element of unpredictability. All it takes is a complication or some emergency and I may have to go in at odd hours or stay much later. You can minimize this by being a good surgeon and by knowing your limits, but some element of this will always exist especially when you’re new like me.

and the larger the group taking call and covering each other the smaller the impact of this unpredictability.

 

[WinslowPringle]

You can tailor attending lifestyle in surgical sub specialties relatively towards what you want depending on how you weight money, time off, call, clinic, location, staff support, research time, academics, etc. You still have to make it through a long and arduous residency +/- fellowship, which for some people isn’t worth it. 5-7 years is a long time.

But if you get addicted to operating and love it, 80 hours of adrenaline filled hands-on problem solving is 1000x better than 40 hours of soul sucking social work. I would take months of q2 operative call rather than have to do medicine rounds for a couple of weeks.

 

[Dunkthetall]

“Desirable location” has been brought up a few times here and other threads; does that usually mean large metro areas on the coasts?

 

[Tenk]

I’m friends with one of my general surgeons at my small community hospital I work at. I always have a hard time finding a day we can hang out, go shooting and go get a bite to eat. It’s not because of my schedule (I have 15 days off a month as I am EM) and we both have wives and three kids, it’s just he works more than me. He’s a happy guy, he loves what he does but he even says his wife almost has to force him to go out sometimes because it’s hard to balance having a family + a busy job.

Here’s the thing about being a surgeon: there is absolutely no shortage of work. You can work every single day, 24 hours a day, and the hospital will be jumping up and down for you. You make them money. You can be a surgeon and be happy and do stuff, you just have to know how to prioritize your life over your work. At least that’s what he’s told me during our adventures together.

 

[Sleepingdoc]

I’m friends with one of my general surgeons at my small community hospital I work at. I always have a hard time finding a day we can hang out, go shooting and go get a bite to eat. It’s not because of my schedule (I have 15 days off a month as I am EM) and we both have wives and three kids, it’s just he works more than me. He’s a happy guy, he loves what he does but he even says his wife almost has to force him to go out sometimes because it’s hard to balance having a family + a busy job.

Here’s the thing about being a surgeon: there is absolutely no shortage of work. You can work every single day, 24 hours a day, and the hospital will be jumping up and down for you. You make them money. You can be a surgeon and be happy and do stuff, you just have to know how to prioritize your life over your work. At least that’s what he’s told me during our adventures together.

I honestly have seen more divorced surgeons recently than in the past, thats true in general with most physicians too. I do have friends in the specialty who do not have time for anything including family life. I am sure it gets better as you become experienced and let the younger surgeons take the brunt of the it.

I am not in the specialty so its better to ask the surgeons about their lifestyle and make sure you wanna do it, not just because your board scores a high. If you want to become a surgeon, God bless you.

 

[deleted50541]

“Desirable location” has been brought up a few times here and other threads; does that usually mean large metro areas on the coasts?

I think it's a fairly subjective term with regards to what one desires in a practice and their lifestyle. One's "desirable location" is not necessarily another's.

By nature of my specialty as a thoracic surgeon, I needed to be in a larger metro area at a referral center to grow and maintain my practice. I also chose a location closer to family, which my wife and I had been away from for almost 15 years during our education/training.

For some of my co-residents who practice as general surgeons, they chose to go back to their home states in relatively rural/small town communities. That was their desirable location.

 

[collegestud2013]

I am a MS2 interested in a competitive surgical specialty. I've been engaged in research and making connections in this specialty since I started med school. Whenever, I mention I want to do it, people tell me "Oh I once considered something surgical until I did my surgical clerkship and realized I don't want to do this for the rest of my life" and I've noticed a lot of people choosing specialties with lifestyle in mind.

I hold no judgment against choosing a specialty with lifestyle in mind. It's important. I'm interested in my specialty or something surgical because I've interviewed a lot of patients and realized quickly that I don't think I can do a specialty where all I do is interview patients as it gets boring for me so I think I want to do something with a mix of clinical and surgery.

However, I'm scared. What if I end up being miserable in my specialty because the life is too difficult. (Waking up at 4 AM or long hours) People also tell me they choose lifestyle because they want to make sure they have time for family outside of the hospital. I'm someone who's never really thought about that. My thought process is to find a career/specialty I love and everything will fall in place. I'm also single so I'm not sure if I'll ever be lucky enough to find that special someone. I do want a family but I don't know if this is something I should consider when choosing a specialty. Hence, I've always prioritized my interest in the specialty. But I wonder if I should leverage lifestyle more into my thought process.

If work-life balance is high on your priority I would not consider Surgery (or more surgical subspecialties) as a first choice specialty to pursue. Work hours will be brutal in residency with many Surgery residencies frequently violating the 80 hr ACGME duty limits. It gets slightly better as an attending but as others have mentioned there is is still call which requires covering unpredictable emergencies.

Also, the culture in medicine, especially among older physicians (who trained in the time before ACGME duty hour regulations) and among surgical specialties, has been more about working hard to get ahead in your career. For some reason, the emphasis on work-life balance and working close to 9 to 5 seems to be more popular among the younger generations, more among female physicians, and among PAs/NPs.

 

[NY_Med]

If work-life balance is high on your priority I would not consider Surgery (or more surgical subspecialties) as a first choice specialty to pursue. Work hours will be brutal in residency with many Surgery residencies frequently violating the 80 hr ACGME duty limits. It gets slightly better as an attending but as others have mentioned there is is still call which requires covering unpredictable emergencies.

Also, the culture in medicine, especially among older physicians (who trained in the time before ACGME duty hour regulations) and among surgical specialties, has been more about working hard to get ahead in your career. For some reason, the emphasis on work-life balance and working close to 9 to 5 seems to be more popular among the younger generations, more among female physicians, and among PAs/NPs.

Nice generalizations lmao

 

[DarkHorizon]

As a surgeon, I work hard. But I love what I do and it hardly seems like work. I’m forever grateful for the opportunity to do what I do. I make more money now than I ever thought I would, my work is more like a hobby.

But not everyone likes their work as much as I do. You have to find out what’s important to you. For me, it was fixing broken bones. Of course family comes first, but they know my work is important to me. I make as much time as I can for the family, but the reality of being a surgeon is that, it’s not a job, it’s a lifestyle.

 

[ChymeofPassion]

As a surgeon, I work hard. But I love what I do and it hardly seems like work. I’m forever grateful for the opportunity to do what I do. I make more money now than I ever thought I would, my work is more like a hobby.

But not everyone likes their work as much as I do. You have to find out what’s important to you. For me, it was fixing broken bones. Of course family comes first, but they know my work is important to me. I make as much time as I can for the family, but the reality of being a surgeon is that, it’s not a job, it’s a lifestyle.

I'm interested in surgery in that I find the operations interesting and it's cool to do something with my hands instead of rounding all day, but everytime I hear something like the bolded (and I swear it's like every day), I have to stop myself from rolling my eyes/wondering if they are joking. Is this a sign it isnt for me?

 

[Wordead]

Nice generalizations lmao

 

[Lem0nz]

I'm interested in surgery in that I find the operations interesting and it's cool to do something with my hands instead of rounding all day, but everytime I hear something like the bolded (and I swear it's like every day), I have to stop myself from rolling my eyes/wondering if they are joking. Is this a sign it isnt for me?

No. He's right. Surgery is a lifestyle and not a job or a hobby. But it takes residency training and fellowship before it really becomes that ingrained into you.

I feel the same way - I don't actually need to be paid to do surgery at this point, its just freaking fun. I could probably be happy on 100k/yr and I have an apartment across the street from the hospital - I have no intention on giving it up. The first house I bought is a rental property ten minutes away that's x6 the size of my apartment and I'm very content living in my apartment with zero commute. I feel less stress while operating than I do in my normal day to day life. It's easy and it makes sense and I'm extremely good at it. The rest of the money they pay me I put in retirement or give to my family. I genuinely enjoy what I do. If I have to stay late and do an emergency case I shrug, go in, and in the morning I joke with my patients that neither of us got to see our family last night because we were doing an emergency operation together. We laugh, they appreciate me, my family understands how important I am to the community and that I'm actually making a difference and doing something extremely meaningful.

I struggle pretty hard with work/life balance because 'work' is fun and makes me happy. My daughter is also fun and makes me happy, as is my father who's retiring and moving to the same city I'm in now. In my head they all have equal weight because they're all extremely meaningful, fulfilling, and enjoyable ways to live my life. From someone looking at me on the outside you would absolutely see someone who has no good concept (and honestly really struggles) with work/life balance, but from my perspective on the inside, I have a sense of purpose and genuine gratification at how I live my life and spend my time. It is a huge struggle to be everywhere at once and give time to everything that needs it but I think that'll get better as I build my program and get two more surgeons onboard. I'm a fantastic father when I'm with my daughter but I definitely am more absent than other parents. That's just life. When there's only 24 hours in a day and you need to dedicate 1/4 to 1/3 of that to sleep... shrug. Choose what you want to do with your time that is going to make you feel like you spent it well once you don't have any time left. Hope that... helps?

 

[Lem0nz]

I don't agree with the first response to this thread about not listening to anyone outside the specialty tell you how bad it is. I have friends who pursued surgery, I teach rotating surgical residents, and I work with surgeons daily.

As with any job, it's all about the bang for the buck.

I believe this pretty much encapsulates why you should make sure to hear both sides of the coin. You absolutely should not listen to anyone outside of the specialty tell you how bad their *lifestyle* is because there are a great many surgeons (many in this very thread) who do not feel that surgery is 'work' in any traditional sense. To us it is a lot more than just a job. There are far, far more doctors outside of surgery for whom being a doctor is first and foremost a job.

That's totally, totally OK and a normal thing. But I would say that you really need to hear from a surgeon why we're happy and content working 60-80 hours a week as an attending and feel less stress than some of our medical counterparts working 40 hours a week for their job and have way more time to prioritize their lives. In black and white terms, surgery is more work for about equal pay if you average the hours and intensity against the much higher salaries. But in terms of having a feeling of control and job satisfaction, most surgeons could not stomach doing another specialty for 10 hours a week, much less 40.

 

[Dr McSexy]

I am a MS2 interested in a competitive surgical specialty. I've been engaged in research and making connections in this specialty since I started med school. Whenever, I mention I want to do it, people tell me "Oh I once considered something surgical until I did my surgical clerkship and realized I don't want to do this for the rest of my life" and I've noticed a lot of people choosing specialties with lifestyle in mind.

I hold no judgment against choosing a specialty with lifestyle in mind. It's important. I'm interested in my specialty or something surgical because I've interviewed a lot of patients and realized quickly that I don't think I can do a specialty where all I do is interview patients as it gets boring for me so I think I want to do something with a mix of clinical and surgery.

However, I'm scared. What if I end up being miserable in my specialty because the life is too difficult. (Waking up at 4 AM or long hours) People also tell me they choose lifestyle because they want to make sure they have time for family outside of the hospital. I'm someone who's never really thought about that. My thought process is to find a career/specialty I love and everything will fall in place. I'm also single so I'm not sure if I'll ever be lucky enough to find that special someone. I do want a family but I don't know if this is something I should consider when choosing a specialty. Hence, I've always prioritized my interest in the specialty. But I wonder if I should leverage lifestyle more into my thought process.

There's a lot of variability in terms of how easy it is to have a "cush" lifestyle as a surgeon. Residency is always brutal in terms of the long hours but is drastically different for most specialities as an attending.

As an attending I do 3-4 days of clinic per week and 1-2 OR days per week. Clinic days are just your standard 8/9-5 days. My surgical days are 7/8- finish which can been 1-4pm depending on what I'm doing. I hardly ever have inpts except for the occasional 23h obs. My wife would always want me to work less, haha. But I don't think the hours are terrible for most weeks.

I think biggest things that affect the lifestyle is the call coverage and the need to be available. Call obviously sucks for any speciality regardless if surgical, but obviously if you're speciality requires more immediate consultations that can't wait till the morning then yeah annoying. How often you take call or if you take call for your patients yourself vs split amongnst the practice etc. All of these things can be prioritized depending on what you want out of a work lifestyle balance.

 

[deleted50541]

I think biggest things that affect the lifestyle is the call coverage and the need to be available. Call obviously sucks for any speciality regardless if surgical, but obviously if you're speciality requires more immediate consultations that can't wait till the morning then yeah annoying. How often you take call or if you take call for your patients yourself vs split amongnst the practice etc. All of these things can be prioritized depending on what you want out of a work lifestyle balance.

Agreed. Having less call spread out amongst a larger group definitely improves one's life and well-being. My call as a fellow was every other day/every other weekend and continued that way for almost three years as an attending until we got a third partner. My attending call is no where near as brutal as it was as a fellow, but when half your month is spent on call and you're always worried about the next disaster, it really grinds you down.

We've actually proposed amending our hospital contracts to limit call days to 10 per month. Anything extra, they've got to pay for it since we're salaried.

 

[hfiso]

Simply put- surgical residencies tend to suck lifestyle wise compared to primary care and other fields with less call.

Attending life is whatever you want it to be. There’s workaholics in every area of medicine and there’s folks playing golf every afternoon in every field. Choose passion and then the lifestyle will come with it

 

[doyouhaveaflag]

I'm a resident in plastic surgery. I work more than many of my friends from med school who went into non surgical specialties, but I love my job. There are definitely some days when I go to work before my toddler wakes up and get home after he goes to bed, and that does make me sad. My husband is essentially my roommate, but the reasons for that are more complex than just my long hours. But, if I had to make the choice what specialty to go into, I would make the same decision every single time. The OR is my happy place.

 

[bluv1212]

I think operating is something you have to find intrinsic validation in to choose surgery. Otherwise, delaying gratification for so many years may feel like torture at times. Violating duty hours of common to surgical programs now and again. Much more common of an issue than other residencies. Surgical residency is better suited for the resilient and resolute. As an attending you can have a varied level of practice depending on geography, your specialty, and the amount of compensation you want. Even as a new attending, you could prob schedule every Friday off if you wanted. If there is nothing else you can see yourself doing and you would feel deprived if not performing surgery, then proceed. To the contrary, so much of other specialties is consumed with documentation and social work. So it's not a surprise that so much of my work satisfaction is related to operating and seeing a measurable impact of the work.

 

[Lem0nz]

If there is nothing else you can see yourself doing and you would feel deprived if not performing surgery, then proceed.

To the contrary, so much of other specialties is consumed with documentation and social work. So it's not a surprise that so much of my work satisfaction is related to operating and seeing a measurable impact of the work.

These are probably the two most relevant sentences in this entire thread. Surgery should really be a choice of exclusion: you have examined all other specialties and not only do you not like them, but you actually can't even tolerate them. Whether or not you love surgery is not particularly relevant - you should not be able to tolerate anything else, as any other tolerable option would realistically give you a better lifestyle.

To the second point, we do surprisingly little paperwork and its quite amazing. There are a lot of negatives to billing but one of the things surgery gets right is the 30 (or 90) day global period where you write a consult note, you write an operative note, and then literally everything else you write after that point is no longer relevant other than to actually communicate to other doctors and provide legal defense. Those two things can be accomplished in an extraordinarily small amount of words and time. With the addition of MDM outpatient consult notes, and this year the adoption of inpatient MDM where you can cut out 90% of the bloat from consults now too... paperwork is one front we're actually doing a really fantastic job on making improvements on for surgery. It really helps in making you feel like every action you take in surgery has purpose. You're rarely checking boxes for the sake of checking boxes.

 

[chapulin colorado]

I don’t sleep. I don’t eat. I never see my kids.

Jk. I actually do all of those things regularly. I love my job and wouldn’t choose any other specialty if I went back. I do get up at 4AM though, depending on the rotation, but I’m almost always home by 5-6. One 24hr shift a month. 2 golden weekends/month almost always. My program is very busy operative case wise and all of us manage to maintain fairly decent schedules and lives outside the hospital. My average hours in the hospital are typically ~70

Almost always home by 5-6 as a PGY-1?? Have you rotated on a busy ACS service? Transplant? Ped surg?? And 2 goldens a month?

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Almost always home by 5-6 as a PGY-1?? Have you rotated on a busy ACS service? Transplant? Ped surg?? And 2 goldens a month?

Yes. There is only one service you aren’t home by that time consistently (obviously assuming no last second emergencies pop up, which can happen on any service).

I mean don’t get me wrong, we are probably the hardest working residency in our hospital, besides neurosurgery who never seems to leave the hospital, but surgery residency doesn’t have to be absolute torture.

 

[Mad Jack]

See the thing is it sucks to end up on a crappy surgery site for rotations and write off the specialty entirely because of that bad experience. That's the downside of making specialty decisions based on rotation experiences

Eh, there's a good amount of "you just know" that comes out of rotations. I've been in many an OR and it just isn't me, you know? My surgery rotations were great, but like... I would hate doing surgery for a living. Always give a specialty a second look if you really want to make sure as an early 4th year rotation of you're on the fence or there were institutional cultural factors that put you off would be my advice for the people here

 

[chapulin colorado]

Yes. There is only one service you aren’t home by that time consistently (obviously assuming no last second emergencies pop up, which can happen on any service).

I mean don’t get me wrong, we are probably the hardest working residency in our hospital, besides neurosurgery who never seems to leave the hospital, but surgery residency doesn’t have to be absolute torture.

It doesn't have to be torture, but I'd be willing to bet your experience is not the norm. Home BY 5 or 6 here and there, depending on the rotation? Sure. Consistently? Not sure how that happens if you're at an "operatively robust" program. More surgeries = more patients = more chance for delays, late starts, or things going sideways = more time in house ESP as a PGY1.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

It doesn't have to be torture, but I'd be willing to bet your experience is not the norm. Home BY 5 or 6 here and there, depending on the rotation? Sure. Consistently? Not sure how that happens if you're at an "operatively robust" program. More surgeries = more patients = more chance for delays, late starts, or things going sideways = more time in house ESP as a PGY1.

Lol. You can believe me or not. I know what my case logs are and what my hours are.

 

[chapulin colorado]

Lol. You can believe me or not. I know what my case logs are and what my hours are.

I did not say I didn't believe you, just that it's not the norm (consider yourself lucky!). Heck, many programs don't even have shift change/sign out until 6pm. And if you're a PGY1, you're not going first...

 

[Gilakend]

I considered orthopedic surgery for the first 3 years of med school, did my surgery rotation, hated it, and have been happy ever since choosing a ROAD specialty over surgery. I earn more and work much, much less than surgeons, and reap the great family-oriented lifestyle that affords.

I have the utmost respect for surgeons, but I also would never choose such a life. I don't agree with the first response to this thread about not listening to anyone outside the specialty tell you how bad it is. I have friends who pursued surgery, I teach rotating surgical residents, and I work with surgeons daily.

As with any job, it's all about the bang for the buck. If you are cool with $200-300K/year, then yes, you can have your lifestyle job as a surgeon. If you seek $400K+ and especially $500K+, I would be very hesitant to believe any surgeon saying a cush lifestyle is common. Impossible? No - but very rare. More likely, you will be grinding/working insanely to make that and, in your off hours, will be exhausted.

I recall a surgeon giving a lecture at my med school who said he watched his kids grow up on video recordings his wife took daily. Sounds horrible. Spending 5 years+ as a slave resident +/- fellowship and then working up the chain as an attending in today's society of declining reimbursements is a brutal mountain to climb. Be careful and choose your specialty wisely.

Which ROAD specialty (if it isn't too doxing for you to say)? I'm an M3 who is interested in ortho vs a ROAD specialty, but always imagined the pay would be pretty sizably less compared to the ortho average.

 

[Maximus2020]

Any ROAD specialty can earn the same or more than general ortho. "Can" being the key word. Ortho spine will earn more than most ROADs. Interventional neurorads or ophtho subspecialists earn more than gen orthos. Variable no doubt so don't get mad at me ortho peeps. Location has a huge impact obviously.

It depends on the person, the location, the time, etc. Averages are averages for a reason.

 

[ChordaEpiphany]

See the thing is it sucks to end up on a crappy surgery site for rotations and write off the specialty entirely because of that bad experience. That's the downside of making specialty decisions based on rotation experiences

On the flip side, be careful choosing a specialty or career path based on working in a unicorn department. I was convinced to pursue an MD/PhD by a really bigtime physician scientist and department chief. His life was a mix of clinic/OR days, running a basic science lab, giving talks all around the country, starting companies, and consulting on other companies' boards. Truthfully I didn't realize how different most MD/PhD's careers go until I had already started. I now work with another "bigtime" department chief in a surgical subspecialty with a similar mix of academic and commercial interests, and I'm very wary of assuming their experiences/opportunities reflect what's available to me.

Here’s the thing about being a surgeon: there is absolutely no shortage of work. You can work every single day, 24 hours a day, and the hospital will be jumping up and down for you. You make them money. You can be a surgeon and be happy and do stuff, you just have to know how to prioritize your life over your work. At least that’s what he’s told me during our adventures together.

The department chief I now work with gave me a strict lecture about just this the other day. "You decide what you put up with. No one cares if it's Christmas, New Years, or the day your first child is born, if you let them, they'll book you every day. You're going to be the one that puts your foot down when enough is enough." Seems like you have to be very proactive, and that the default is to work more. I still prefer this to the alternative (i.e., scrounging for patients, drumming up business).

 

[DOVinciRobot]

I did not say I didn't believe you, just that it's not the norm (consider yourself lucky!). Heck, many programs don't even have shift change/sign out until 6pm. And if you're a PGY1, you're not going first...

there is nuance to it. We don’t do shift change/sign out until 6pm either. A lot of services have 2 interns because of the clinical load, so we often alternate who has to stay for sign out.

Don’t get me wrong, it isn’t “cushy” by any stretch. Last night I worked until the wee hours of the morning helping with an emergent case and came back at 6 this morning. I’m just saying that this idea that surgeons are always in the hospital working 100+ hours a week isn’t necessarily true at a lot of programs anymore.

Any ROAD specialty can earn the same or more than general ortho. "Can" being the key word. Ortho spine will earn more than most ROADs. Interventional neurorads or ophtho subspecialists earn more than gen orthos. Variable no doubt so don't get mad at me ortho peeps. Location has a huge impact obviously.

It depends on the person, the location, the time, etc. Averages are averages for a reason.

Eh kinda, but not really. Ortho consistently has one of the highest median salaries at any career stage. Sure you “can” make more on a ROAD specialty, but in average the gen ortho is going to always come out ahead.

This isn’t even getting into Spine or Joints

 

[Gilakend]

Eh kinda, but not really. Ortho consistently has one of the highest median salaries at any career stage. Sure you “can” make more on a ROAD specialty, but in average the gen ortho is going to always come out ahead.

This isn’t even getting into Spine or Joints

I always wondered how this would be if you accounted for hours worked. Obviously, within the ROAD specialties, there are outliers (I know multiple ophtho guys making over 7 figures working 4 days a week) but not including those. For example, the ortho guy definitely earns more on average than say derm or anesthesia but is it more a product of higher reimbursement or simply working more? Could be both, but it would be interesting to see how much each plays into it. All the data I've researched on it is so scattered it seems like none of it is accurate.

Regardless for me, it's much more about lifestyle than pay. I want to do ortho because it's my favorite thing in medicine, but it isn't my favorite thing in the world. I'd likely rather have a job I like and a lifestyle I love than a job I love and lifestyle I settled for. However, it seems like your lifestyle isn't even that bad as a PGY-1 so it definitely gives me more to think about.

I appreciate all the responses you've put in this thread!

 

[DarkBluMage]

Lmbo all these comments from people satisfied with being absent or basically deadbeat parents cause they’d rather be in the hospital. Yikes
I refuse to be that kinda surgeon.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

Lmbo all these comments from people satisfied with being absent or basically deadbeat parents cause they’d rather be in the hospital. Yikes
I refuse to be that kinda surgeon.

Must be a hell of a view from the top of that horse….

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

A lot of services have 2 interns because of the clinical load, so we often alternate who has to stay for sign out.

This. Where I rotated for gen surg, there were 3 interns on the service, so they alternated who stayed for sign out. That means 2 of every 3 days the interns were leaving at a reasonable hour.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Must be a hell of a view from the top of that horse….

It is. Don’t have a family if you’re not going to be a proper parent or wife/husband. Be single

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Or the "Once you're an attending you can work 40 hours a week if you'd like".... yeah and you'll make FM money despite spending 5-7 years training

Then you get the 0.00001% person who will chime in with "I work 40 hours and make $900k" because clearly anyone can do that /s

I have literally never met a surgeon who works 50 hours a week and “only” makes FM money. What are you even talking about?

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

It is. Don’t have a family if you’re not going to be a proper parent or wife/husband. Be single

Are you married or a parent? Cause I am and the options definitely aren’t be a deadbeat parent as a surgeon or be single.

 

[DarkBluMage]

You’re clearly neither.

Ears burning? Tragic

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

Ears burning? Tragic

No, i have a great relationship with my kids and my wife. I’m just laughing at how ludicrous your position is. It’s clearly coming from someone who has no experience parenting or being in a marriage.

 

[DOVinciRobot]

It is. Don’t have a family if you’re not going to be a proper parent or wife/husband. Be single

Nah. I’ll gladly be a dad/husband and also a busy surgeon.

 

[chapulin colorado]

This. Where I rotated for gen surg, there were 3 interns on the service, so they alternated who stayed for sign out. That means 2 of every 3 days the interns were leaving at a reasonable hour.

Was this a program that has a ton of non-categorical spots or something? I just have never come across a program with 3 categorical interns (out of maybe 6 total) that puts them on the same service. Would be new to me.

Maybe all I (and those that I know at other programs) know is abuse haha but I've never even heard of any service having 3 interns much less 2. Maybe 2 juniors, sure. Or say an intern and clinical PGY3. Then, yes of course there's some rotating that goes on and not everybody is staying late. But my point earlier was that my experience has been even "on time" is after 6pm and that is more the norm. Doesn't have to mean staying until 9pm, but certainly is not home BY 5pm.

 

[Matthew9Thirtyfive]

The average surgeon works 60 hours and the avg FM doc works 50 (its easier and more possible to be efficient in FM - work 40 and make $300k). If a surgeon cut down to 40 hours they'd make around that much. Avg is currently $440k for 60 hours. Not to mention 2-3 years more of MUCH more difficult training. 2-3 years salary is a net $500k difference and another $60k in student loan interest

You’re taking the average salary for a general surgeon and then taking an above average salary for an FP and comparing the two while saying the FP would be making that much at a significant hours reduction. It should be pretty obvious why that’s not a good comparison.

 

[DarkBluMage]

Nah. I’ll gladly be a dad/husband and also a busy surgeon.

Lmbo you go ahead and do that. Just make sure your family isn’t a side show to your career. They deserve better than that. No point in having a family when you barely even see them. It’s embarrassing seeing so many people build families just to neglect them and make their wives or husbands married single parents and their kids being ignored and deprived of an active parent like they deserve. Super selfish. Makes no sense.