How Being a Doctor Became the Most Miserable Profession

[FranzLO]

If its for you, its worth it. I am having a blast

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[mehc012]

I've actually heard this from several docs. I've seen some really awkward patient interactions, and I've also seen some truly expertly finagled encounters that makes the patient feel a lot better about the service despite not getting narcotic drugs. My interpretation is that it still puts docs in an uncomfortable position.

Some patients don't allow for those truly expertly finagled encounters. And some nod and act like they've been convinced, and then track the nurse down when the doc isn't around and try to convince them to give them drugs. And if that doesn't work, they approach random non-medical personnel like the scribes, who interacted with them, and see if they can get those people to illicitly give them drugs.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Some patients don't allow for those truly expertly finagled encounters. And some nod and act like they've been convinced, and then track the nurse down when the doc isn't around and try to convince them to give them drugs. And if that doesn't work, they approach random non-medical personnel like the scribes, who interacted with them, and see if they can get those people to illicitly give them drugs.

True. The circumstances suck sometimes. Luckily I've never heard of someone explicitly fired because they wouldn't give a drug-seeker his/her drugs, but it could be more prevalent than I'm aware.

 

[Mornhavon]

.

 

[ohioguy]

Give it time Spongebob. I think you'll reach the same conclusion yourself.

 

[DermViser]

Truth hurts, right Mornhavon?

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Truth hurts, right Mornhavon?

Pre-meds don't get aggravated at posts like this because we're wrong (deep down we all know we're wrong). We never expect a doctor to respect our medical opinion, or our opinions on medicine. We get aggravated because we get no respect as people simply due to lack of qualifications. Clearly this lack of respect is a two-way street (gif being evidence), but when the professionals show a lack of tact in disregarding pre-med opinions, it becomes harder to have respect for them as people, despite our respect for their qualifications and medical experience.

@ohioguy, I thought your comment was tactful and pretty interesting. Mornhavon's response was an over-reaction.
@DermViser, I think you should find a new hobby. Scrolling around every pre-med sdn thread bashing the opinions of pre-meds with your mighty knowledge of medicine is getting old. You should be here to teach and give perspective to future doctors, not to inflate your ego. I would think someone as successful and accomplished as you would have something better to do with their time.

 

[DermViser]

Pre-meds don't get aggravated at posts like this because we're wrong (deep down we all know we're wrong). We never expect a doctor to respect our medical opinion, or our opinions on medicine. We get aggravated because we get no respect as people simply due to lack of qualifications. Clearly this lack of respect is a two-way street (gif being evidence), but when the professionals show a lack of tact in disregarding pre-med opinions, it becomes harder to have respect for them as people, despite our respect for their qualifications and medical experience.

@ohioguy, I thought your comment was tactful and pretty interesting. Mornhavon's response was an over-reaction.
@DermViser, I think you should find a new hobby. Scrolling around every pre-med sdn thread bashing the opinions of pre-meds with your mighty knowledge of medicine is getting old. You should be here to teach and give perspective to future doctors, not to inflate your ego. I would think someone as successful and accomplished as you would have something better to do with their time.

Like I said, your lack of qualifications is not the issue. Your opinion is evaluated, and then your lack of qualifications only serve why you're so naive When even @NickNaylor, whose a huge superstar, is thoroughly warning you guys about the reality of med school and medicine, it speaks volumes when you guys still reject the truth. It's not surprising as premeds, on average, have never held a REAL full-time job before. Up to this point, their entire way they've been evaluated is GPA and standardized test taking. Sorry, but laughing at the idiocracy is more than enough.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Like I said, your lack of qualifications is not the issue. Your opinion is evaluated, and then your lack of qualifications only serve why you're so naive When even NickNaylor, whose a huge superstar, is thoroughly warning you guys about the reality of med school and medicine, it speaks volumes when you guys still reject the truth. It's not surprising as premeds, on average, have never held a REAL full-time job before. Up to this point, their entire way they've been evaluated is GPA and standardized test taking. Sorry, but laughing at the idiocracy is more than enough.

I've worked full-time for five years, two years before college and three years after. Did you read my post? My issue is not that doctors on these forums don't respect my/our opinions on medicine, they shouldn't. My issue is that a very small minority come here solely to "laugh at the idiocracy" without instructing or giving further perspective to those clearly lacking. No one reads your comments and says, "oh, now here's someone with more experience in this field than me telling me that I'm misguided." Your comments have no constructive value. They don't serve to do anything except put down the misguided person and elevate your lofty status as a physician among pre-meds. To me, your words read like those of a person who needs to justify himself, someone who inflates his/her ego by looking down upon individuals who aren't so far along in their careers. This isn't so uncommon, especially in competitive and stressful fields. I've met many people in the risky and stressful start-up world who operate similarly under high pressure conditions. I hope you can find whatever it is you're looking for, but I think you'll find it more fulfilling to reach out and attempt to guide people who are misguided than you will to laugh at them.

It is this attitude that leads to the lack of respect pre-meds show towards particular comments/users. Despite who's right/wrong, there needs to be a baseline level of respect in both directions.

 

[DermViser]

I've worked full-time for five years, two years before college and three years after. Did you read my post? My issue is not that doctors on these forums don't respect my/our opinions on medicine, they shouldn't. My issue is that a very small minority come here solely to "laugh at the idiocracy" without instructing or giving further perspective to those clearly lacking. No one reads your comments and says, "oh, now here's someone with more experience in this field than me telling me that I'm misguided." Your comments have no constructive value. They don't serve to do anything except put down the misguided person and elevate your lofty status as a physician among pre-meds. To me, your words read like those of a person who needs to justify himself, someone who inflates his/her ego by looking down upon individuals who aren't so far along in their careers. This isn't so uncommon, especially in competitive and stressful fields. I've met many people in the risky and stressful start-up world who operate similarly under high pressure conditions. I hope you can find whatever it is you're looking for, but I think you'll find it more fulfilling to reach out and attempt to guide people who are misguided than you will to laugh at them.

It is this attitude that leads to the lack of respect pre-meds show towards particular comments/users. Despite who's right/wrong, there needs to be a baseline level of respect in both directions.

Your "full-time for five years, two years before college and three years after." mean jack squat in the world of medicine. The many things that happen in medical education and in medicine would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. Like I said, even someone like NickNaylor and ArmyBound and others who've calmly explained and premeds here still are oblivious (yourself included). I instead prefer to just laugh at you, bc I won't waste the energy, bc it's obvious you don't want to listen. The level of educational, monetary, and time sacrifice, is much greater in this field than some doofuses who are wanting to create a start-up.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Your "full-time for five years, two years before college and three years after." mean jack squat in the world of medicine.

I seem to remember you saying this exact same thing to a veteran who had just described seeing his friends blown to pieces and sleeping on the ground due to intense PTSD. Very creative, and not at all offensive...

The many things that happen in medical education and in medicine would never be tolerated in a normal workplace. Like I said, even someone like NickNaylor and ArmyBound and others who've calmly explained and premeds here still are oblivious (yourself included).

Not sure how this is relevant to the argument. Maybe tie in your key points better. Why the emphasis of "REAL job" if you clearly don't respect anyone working outside of medicine anyway? You're harping on the fact that I don't know what it's like to be a doctor. I've already stated that quite plainly, so maybe find some actual ground to stand on. My argument is that your an ass in the way you present it. Luckily for me you're providing plenty of good evidence.

I instead prefer to just laugh at you, bc I won't waste the energy, bc it's obvious you don't want to listen.

I've just been sitting here waiting for you to tell me something constructive. What am I supposed to be listening to? All I've seen you do is insult pre-meds for not knowing what it's like to be a doctor. So why laugh? Do you have no better use of your time than to act as a 6th grade bully on the 3rd grade schoolyard? Putting others down is a tell-tale sign of someone who is unhappy with themselves. As far as I can tell, this has far more to do with your insecurities than our misguided opinions. I've been listening to what the other doctors and medical school students have to say, and I'd like to think I've taken something from hearing their arguments. You see they've been exercising tact. They know pre-meds know nothing about medicine, and so they used this opportunity to instruct.

When you do have something to say about medicine, please let me know. I'll be listening.

The level of educational, monetary, and time sacrifice, is much greater in this field than some doofuses who are wanting to create a start-up.

I was working in the world of drug start-ups, which probably isn't what you were imagining. The two co-founders each had PhDs and had done 3 year post-docs at MIT. One had an MBA. They had spent 9 and 12 years on their training after graduating college and then spent over ten years developing the technology as professors in their labs. When they deemed it ready, they sunk an enormous amount of their own money into gathering the initial funds for the company. Throughout its development, both co-founders routinely worked 100+ hour weeks gathering funds from investors, making connections, finding contractors, and directing research. All of this was done with the knowledge that failure meant an incredible loss of money, of which their own contribution was greater than that invested by a physician on his/her education, and there was no guarantee of a good future salary to depend on if the venture failed. Once the drug entered stage I trials, they obtained several million from angel investors, who did nothing but breathe down their necks. Stage II trials required tens of millions, with pressure building even higher. I would venture a guess that the amount of time, money, and educational sacrifice (the things you listed) were comparable to that of becoming a doctor, but with considerably greater financial risk. They certainly didn't have the time or inclination to post on pre-PhD boards about how little the college students know about the difficulty of securing a professorship and doing high-quality research. It's rather hypocritical of you to assume you know something about an industry you know absolutely nothing about.

Why are you even here? Why start this crusade against people who misunderstand what it means to have your job, and only because they haven't done it yet? You're so clearly massively insecure, hiding behind your identity as a physician on a pre-med discussion forum. Stop justifying yourself by insulting pre-meds, and start thinking of how you can improve the parts of yourself that are lacking. Everyone has to do that from time to time, myself included. You'll feel a lot better if you do.

 

[DermViser]

I seem to remember you saying this exact same thing to a veteran who had just described seeing his friends blown to pieces and sleeping on the ground due to intense PTSD. Very creative, and not at all offensive...

@EngineerPreMD, your being "offended" is not my problem. If you're going to be that easily offended then you won't survive medical school.

Not sure how this is relevant to the argument. Maybe tie in your key points better. Why the emphasis of "REAL job" if you clearly don't respect anyone working outside of medicine anyway? You're harping on the fact that I don't know what it's like to be a doctor. I've already stated that quite plainly, so maybe find some actual ground to stand on. My argument is that your an ass in the way you present it. Luckily for me you're providing plenty of good evidence.

I emphasize a "REAL" job bc premeds have a real lack of real-life experience in which their evaluation isn't based on their GPA or standardized exam scores. Besides maybe being a PA, no other job gives you a window into that medicine is really like.

I've just been sitting here waiting for you to tell me something constructive. What am I supposed to be listening to? All I've seen you do is insult pre-meds for not knowing what it's like to be a doctor. So why laugh? Do you have no better use of your time than to act as a 6th grade bully on the 3rd grade schoolyard? Putting others down is a tell-tale sign of someone who is unhappy with themselves. As far as I can tell, this has far more to do with your insecurities than our misguided opinions. I've been listening to what the other doctors and medical school students have to say, and I'd like to think I've taken something from hearing their arguments. You see they've been exercising tact. They know pre-meds know nothing about medicine, and so they used this opportunity to instruct.

Here let me spell it out for you: reread @NickNaylor 's posts and @armybound 's posts, as they have already clearly delineated what exactly the issue is. It's not that hard to understand.

I was working in the world of drug start-ups, which probably isn't what you were imagining. The two co-founders each had PhDs and had done 3 year post-docs at MIT. One had an MBA. They had spent 9 and 12 years on their training after graduating college and then spent over ten years developing the technology as professors in their labs. When they deemed it ready, they sunk an enormous amount of their own money into gathering the initial funds for the company. Throughout its development, both co-founders routinely worked 100+ hour weeks gathering funds from investors, making connections, finding contractors, and directing research. All of this was done with the knowledge that failure meant an incredible loss of money, of which their own contribution was greater than that invested by a physician on his/her education, and there was no guarantee of a good future salary to depend on if the venture failed. Once the drug entered stage I trials, they obtained several million from angel investors, who did nothing but breathe down their necks. Stage II trials required tens of millions, with pressure building even higher. I would venture a guess that the amount of time, money, and educational sacrifice (the things you listed) were comparable to that of becoming a doctor, but with considerably greater financial risk. They certainly didn't have the time or inclination to post on pre-PhD boards about how little the college students know about the difficulty of securing a professorship and doing high-quality research. It's rather hypocritical of you to assume you know something about an industry you know absolutely nothing about.

Ooh, wow! An MBA?!? (which is an ancillary qualification) A Phd?!!? (which most PhDs get a stipend to pay for their education). Wow! Please tell me more. Try medical education in which when you start you can't get off the train. You HAVE to go through the pipeline of college --> med school --> residency, and you can't just hop off and change jobs, change investments, change companies, etc. Any time you hop off, the game is essentially over and you can't get back on.

This doesn't end as an attending in which you pay malpractice out the wazoo not just for what you've done, but bc the insurance company wishes to settle to make it go away - after which you have to report to every single state board you apply for a state license from and hospital. You're then evaluated not based on how well your practiced medicine but by MBA suits who have absolutely no healthcare experience. In which more of your time is spent documenting than actually taking care of patients? Or where third party payers, constantly believe that you are being paid too much and try to hack your reimbursements? Can you even imagine the doctors that have to live through that? Being accused of being "incompetent" or a "disruptive physician"? But no medicine, is just a bunch of daisies.

 

[Psai]

We read your comments and the idealism and naivete are painfully apparent. We think "only a premed could think like this". Then we look at your status and see "status: pre-med" or MS-0. It's not the lack of qualifications, it's the lack of experience and knowledge which show in many posts. Like when someone says "I feel bad for your future patients" at the end of a post, I just look at that and laugh. I don't need your respect. All I ask is for you to listen. But it doesn't matter either way because in a few years you will figure it out for yourselves and maybe you'll be the ones laughing at premed posts.

 

[masaraksh]

I agree with @EngineerPreMD, @DermViser 's lack of respect towards other jobs and military service is very off-putting. Also, the comment about having real work experience at stressful startups not meaning jack is crazy.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Where are the attendings who actually had careers with real responsibilities before becoming Physicians? I want the guy with the big stick to come in and just kick everyone's @ss in here. Internet beat downs, ftw. I'm infected by SDN, I regress at least 10 years before my fingers even touch the keyboard.

We seem to have three groups here with no real basis of comparison for what the other is saying.

Docs & med students with no real world experience outside of medicine.
Non-trads with no real world experience inside of medicine.
Pre-meds with neither.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

@EngineerPreMD, your being "offended" is not my problem. If you're going to be that easily offended then you won't survive medical school.

You'd be hard-pressed to find a person in this country who isn't offended by someone mocking the experiences of a veteran who's seen combat and lost friends to the war.

I emphasize a "REAL" job bc premeds have a real lack of real-life experience in which their evaluation isn't based on their GPA or standardized exam scores. Besides maybe being a PA, no other job gives you a window into that medicine is really like.

Point to the part where I said my work experience gives me insight into being a doctor. I was pointing out that I have been employed full-time for five years, and therefore have been evaluated on more than just GPAs and MCATs.

Here's let me spell it out for you: reread @NickNaylor 's posts and @armybound 's posts, as they have already clearly delineated what exactly the issue is. It's not that hard to understand.

Their posts were quite helpful. Yours were not.

Ooh, wow! An MBA?!? (which is an ancillary qualification) A Phd?!!? (which most PhDs get a stipend to pay for their education). Wow! Please tell me more. Try medical education in which when you start you can't get off the train. You HAVE to go through the pipeline of college --> med school --> residency, and you can't just hop off and change jobs, change investments, change companies, etc. Any time you hop off, the game is essentially over and you can't get back on.

This doesn't end as an attending in which you pay malpractice out the wazoo not just for what you've done, but bc the insurance company wishes to settle to make it go away - after which you have to report to every single state board you apply for a state license from and hospital. You're then evaluated not based on how well your practiced medicine but by MBA suits who have absolutely no healthcare experience. In which more of your time is spent documenting than actually taking care of patients? Or where third party payers, constantly believe that you are being paid too much and try to hack your reimbursements? Can you even imagine the doctors that have to live through that? Being accused of being "incompetent" or a "disruptive physician"? But no medicine, is just a bunch of daisies.

Again, point to the part where I said medicine is a bunch of daisies. A PhD takes about six years of very heavy research. Most candidates at top schools work 80-100 hrs/week. They are paid small stipends (~20K) while training. There is definitely less financial risk in a PhD, but there is far more financial risk in trying to put drug therapies on the market, which is what I was talking about. The financial risks and necessary monetary investments are simply far greater in my example. That's not debatable. The other things you listed are things that are unfortunate about being a physician, and I don't see how they are relevant to the argument you brought up (comparing sacrifice of time, money, and education). I'm not trying to argue that this field is harder (I never was), I'm refuting your original point, that medicine requires more time and educational/financial sacrifice than developing a new drug and putting it on the market. The pitfalls of being the CEO of a drug start-up and the pitfalls of being a doctor are so different you couldn't even hope to compare.

You're putting words in my mouth left and right. The only point I've made, which you have yet to address, is that you'd get a far better response from the naive pre-meds if you refrained from mocking, and instead sought to teach them how naive they are in a mature way. @Psai I'm not talking about posts ending with "I feel bad for your patients." Those posts are stupid, we all know they're stupid. The people writing them even know deep down that they're stupid. Most 21-22 year old pre-meds have no life experience. What about the 27 year olds among us? I would argue that we simply hold a different set of experiences, and that older doctors hold more life experience than I do. I offer my experience on what it is like to work in the fields in which I have worked. I haven't once claimed to know what it is like to be a doctor, but DermViser mocks the idea that obtaining a PhD is difficult, despite never having done it. He claims that the financial sacrifice is larger in MD, while research-affiliated professor, after completing a post-doc at 40K/year or less, make 35-60K/year. Only tenured professors at top schools break six figures. I agree with you Psai, those posts are dumb, and if they directly attack you as an MD, I can't fault you for mocking them. I'm sure I'll find those thoughts and posts laughable as a physician. They're laughable now, simply because I see 22 year olds with no experience acting like they know better. I'm looking at DermViser, who specifically stalks out these thread looking for pre-meds to mock, while offering nothing of any substance for them to chew on. It's sad actually, that there is a trained doctor out there just perusing the pre-med forums looking for people many years younger than him to mock. Maybe I'll head over to a college career fair to mock the prospective start-up engineers.[/USER]

 

[DermViser]

I agree with @EngineerPreMD, @DermViser 's lack of respect towards other jobs and military service is very off-putting. Also, the comment about having real work experience at stressful startups not meaning jack is crazy.

Nice strawman argument there, genius. But no, other jobs and military service does not give you a clue as to how medicine is run and the realities of it. It has nothing to do with respect.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Point to the part where I said my work experience gives me insight into being a doctor. I was pointing out that I have been employed full-time for five years, and therefore have been evaluated on more than just GPAs and MCATs.

[USER=592971]
Their posts were quite helpful. Yours were not.

[USER=592971]
Again, point to the part where I said medicine is a bunch of daisies. A PhD takes about six years of very heavy research. Most candidates at top schools work 80-100 hrs/week. They are paid small stipends (~20K) while training. There is definitely less financial risk in a PhD, but there is far more financial risk in trying to put drug therapies on the market, which is what I was talking about. The [I]financial risks [/I]and necessary monetary investments are simply far greater in my example. That's not debatable. The other things you listed are things that are unfortunate about being a physician, and I don't see how they are relevant to the argument you brought up (comparing sacrifice of time, money, and education). I'm not trying to argue that this field is harder (I never was), I'm refuting your original point, that medicine requires more time and educational/financial sacrifice than developing a new drug and putting it on the market. The pitfalls of being the CEO of a drug start-up and the pitfalls of being a doctor are so different you couldn't even hope to compare.

You're putting words in my mouth left and right. The only point I've made, which you have yet to address, is that you'd get a far better response from the naive pre-meds if you refrained from mocking, and instead sought to teach them how naive they are in a mature way. @Psai I'm not talking about posts ending with "I feel bad for your patients." Those posts are stupid, we all know they're stupid. The people writing them even know deep down that they're stupid. Most 21-22 year old pre-meds have no life experience. What about the 27 year olds among us? I would argue that we simply hold a [I]different [/I]set of experiences, and that older doctors hold more life experience than I do. I offer my experience on what it is like to work in the fields in which I have worked. I haven't once claimed to know what it is like to be a doctor, but DermViser mocks the idea that obtaining a PhD is difficult, despite never having done it. He claims that the financial sacrifice is larger in MD, while research-affiliated professor, after completing a post-doc at 40K/year or less, make 35-60K/year. Only tenured professors at top schools break six figures. I agree with you Psai, those posts are dumb, and if they directly attack you as an MD, I can't fault you for mocking them. I'm sure I'll find those thoughts and posts laughable as a physician. They're laughable now, simply because I see 22 year olds with no experience acting like they know better. I'm looking at DermViser, who specifically stalks out these thread looking for pre-meds to mock, while offering nothing of any substance for them to chew on. It's sad actually, that there is a trained doctor out there just perusing the pre-med forums looking for people many years younger than him to mock. Maybe I'll head over to a college career fair to mock the prospective start-up engineers.[/user][/user]

I'm going to pass along a wonderful tool that I learned about yesterday, the "ignore" feature. My frustrations here (SDN in general, not this thread) dropped about 90% yesterday after discovering it. If you feel like you're beating your head against a wall, it's because you are.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

Nice strawman argument there, genius. But no, other jobs and military service does not give you a clue as to how medicine is run and the realities of it. It has nothing to do with respect.

My only argument was that you were disrespectful, so I thought it fit it quite well.

We seem to have three groups here with no real basis of comparison for what the other is saying.

Docs & med students with no real world experience outside of medicine.
Non-trads with no real world experience inside of medicine.
Pre-meds with neither.

I think @WhippleWhileWeWork wins the argument.

I'm going to pass along a wonderful tool that I learned about yesterday, the "ignore" feature. My frustrations here dropped about 90% yesterday after discovering it. If you feel like you're beating your head against a wall, it's because you are.

I totally am, and I should stop. Thanks for knocking some sense into me. This was beyond stupid and a total waste of my time.

 

[DermViser]

I'm going to pass along a wonderful tool that I learned about yesterday, the "ignore" feature. My frustrations here dropped about 90% yesterday after discovering it. If you feel like you're beating your head against a wall, it's because you are.

Whatever you need to stay in your enclosed bubble.

 

[DermViser]

My only argument was that you were disrespectful, so I thought it fit it quite well.

I think @WhippleWhileWeWork wins the argument.

I totally am, and I should stop. Thanks for knocking some sense into me. This was beyond stupid and a total waste of my time.

If your only argument is "My only argument was that you were disrespectful, so I thought it fit it quite well," and not on substance, then you have nothing. I will LOVE to see how you interact with residents on Surgery or OB-Gyn, who won't be coddling and looking after your feelings.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Whatever you need to stay in your enclosed bubble.

Yeah that's really not an issue, it's the antagonism (see above), lack of reading comprehension effort, and just general egotism that your posts are dripping with. Now, where is that button...

 

[DermViser]

Yeah that's really not an issue, it's the antagonism (see above), lack of reading comprehension effort, and just general egotism that your posts are dripping with. Now where is that button...

Your inability to understand arguments outside of your worldview is not my problem.

 

[Psai]

It's not just those posts. It's most of the posts here. For example, a premed just posted in a thread in allo about research in medical school and his question was: "What sort of weekly commitment are we talking about here? 10 hours a week? 20 hours a week? I'm talking strictly clinical research, not benchwork. What would the commitment be if I wanted a first author paper? Second/Third author?"

Someone explains that you can't count the hours, it's not as if a paper takes 100 hours to do all the legwork and you once you hit 99 hours of work, you're almost done. It depends on the project and the PI, how many people are doing work, etc. You don't put in 150 hours and suddenly get promoted from second author to first. It's about who came up with the idea, executed and did a lot of the work.

Then he goes "Seems like you're being quite vague. I understand that there is inherent variability between different labs and PIs, but I'm just trying to get an idea of the average figure. How much time does the average student who does clinical research spend in the lab? Average turnaround time? Etc."

That's not how research works and these questions show a lack of basic understanding of the process of actually doing research. There might be problems with funding or you might get a snag. IRB approval might take forever. You might get busy and have no time to look at the charts. There are tons of little things that go into doing this but this person don't understand that there's no "average time". Also, it wouldn't even matter if the average time to doing enough work for a good paper is 100 hours if your project ends up taking 500. It's like when premeds ask how many hours of volunteering they need to do. The whole point of volunteering is to do it because you want to do it. You want to help make a person's stay in the hospital a little bit better even though you don't know how to do much. It shouldn't be a contest for how many digits you can put in the hours spot on your AMCAS application. But people don't understand it and we see that you don't understand. We see that you're a premed and it makes sense that you don't understand because back then we didn't either. Then people get butthurt and complain about residents wasting time in preallo blah blah. But if the people who came before you didn't reach back and try to explain things, it would just be the blind leading the blind.

 

[EngineerPreMD]

It's not just those posts. It's most of the posts here. For example, a premed just posted in a thread in allo about research in medical school and his question was: "What sort of weekly commitment are we talking about here? 10 hours a week? 20 hours a week? I'm talking strictly clinical research, not benchwork. What would the commitment be if I wanted a first author paper? Second/Third author?"

Someone explains that you can't count the hours, it's not as if a paper takes 100 hours to do all the legwork and you once you hit 99 hours of work, you're almost done. It depends on the project and the PI, how many people are doing work, etc. You don't put in 150 hours and suddenly get promoted from second author to first. It's about who came up with the idea, executed and did a lot of the work.

Then he goes "Seems like you're being quite vague. I understand that there is inherent variability between different labs and PIs, but I'm just trying to get an idea of the average figure. How much time does the average student who does clinical research spend in the lab? Average turnaround time? Etc."

That's not how research works and these questions show a lack of basic understanding of the process of actually doing research. There might be problems with funding or you might get a snag. IRB approval might take forever. You might get busy and have no time to look at the charts. There are tons of little things that go into doing this but this person don't understand that there's no "average time". Also, it wouldn't even matter if the average time to doing enough work for a good paper is 100 hours if your project ends up taking 500. It's like when premeds ask how many hours of volunteering they need to do. The whole point of volunteering is to do it because you want to do it. You want to help make a person's stay in the hospital a little bit better even though you don't know how to do much. It shouldn't be a contest for how many digits you can put in the hours spot on your AMCAS application. But people don't understand it and we see that you don't understand. We see that you're a premed and it makes sense that you don't understand because back then we didn't either. Then people get butthurt and complain about residents wasting time in preallo blah blah. But if the people who came before you didn't reach back and try to explain things, it would just be the blind leading the blind.

Okay well this makes sense. This is a premed who doesn't understand clinical research. Is he/she informed? No, but there's nothing offensive about this. There's no reason to mock a post like this because people need to learn. I get what you're saying, but I also get what he/she is looking for. For instance, if a freshman or high school student asked me how long it took to get a publication in a basic science lab, I'd say, "It varies, but expect to put in at least 15 hours/week for the duration of the project to make a big enough contribution to be included as a co-author. You have to make a significant contribution to the study (design/implement several successful experiments or figures) to be included. After that, it can take anywhere from a 3 months to 4 or 5 years to gather the data for a publication. Sometimes the data never turns out as well as imagined and the study is not published at all." And now they have a decent idea of very relative time lines and expected input. I feel like I learned something from reading your post just now.

 

[Lucca]

This is the worst thread ever. Can everyone just go home?

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

This is the worst thread ever. Can everyone just go home?

I'd like to disagree and offer that this may be the 2nd worst, but the worst was the IM thread in Allo, that was just shameful.

Dig your sig, btw.

 

[KnuxNole]

Yeah except a lot of diseases are self-inflicted. Obesity, smoking, diabetes are all due to lifestyle and all you need is lifestyle modification but instead of hitting a treadmill once in a while, you get people talking about "healthy at every weight" or whatever that nonsense is. PCPs are underpaid but paying them more isn't going to change the basic issues that we face which is that people don't care enough about their own health and expect doctors to reverse 30 years of autoinduced damage in a 15 minute visit.

Nowadays, big men and women would go ballistic if you told them their heftiness is unhealthy. I heard some overweight women getting offended at a doctor saying that obesity is a disease and said she is jealous cause real men LoVE thick women.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

Nowadays, big men and women would go ballistic if you told them their heftiness is unhealthy. I heard some overweight women getting offended at a doctor saying that obesity is a disease and said she is jealous cause real men LoVE thick women.

Interesting,
Also,
"Fat shaming" - I see this on HuffPo frequently.

Another PC red flag to shut down the conversation that needs to be had. "My Doctor is fat shaming me".

 

[KnuxNole]

We shouldn't shame them, but simply educate. However, we have to realize a LOT of people, especially the average American, will be highly sensitive to lifestyle change discussion. They walk down the street of any city in the us, to see tons of heavy people left and right, and question why people want them to change. It's not that their doctors are asking for change in a negative way, but to steer them to better health.

 

[WhippleWhileWeWork]

We shouldn't shame them, but simply educate. However, we have to realize a LOT of people, especially the average American, will be highly sensitive to lifestyle change discussion.

Sorry, I was implying that how those patients choose to take the conversation is the problem. Some people seem to be hard wired to take offense, I guess it's empowering or something. You were saying some of them go ballistic, I was just bringing up that some of them end up on forums and comment sections saying their Dr.s are fat shaming them.

 

[DermViser]

We shouldn't shame them, but simply educate. However, we have to realize a LOT of people, especially the average American, will be highly sensitive to lifestyle change discussion. They walk down the street of any city in the us, to see tons of heavy people left and right, and question why people want them to change. It's not that their doctors are asking for change in a negative way, but to steer them to better health.

You don't understand. They believe you educating them IS fat shaming them.

 

[KnuxNole]

Sad but true. Guess the "bigger is beautiful" movement is steadily growing across every aspect of the U.S.

I know that physically fit people are a minority in U.S. cities, but soon, they might be a rare sight :O