How big a salary will you be happy with?

[armybound]

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My likely unattainable goal in life (financially) is to earn $500k or more per year before I retire.

My other goal is to have a bank statement that reads $1mil.

 

[TAWS]

Couldn't disagree more with the last part. Probably agree with not having money making you unhappy, though. I don't understand why everyone tries to say that the pursuit of wealth is a bad one. Andrew Carnegie funded over 3000 libraries. And was able to do it because he was ambitious and intelligent. To say that the pursuit of wealth is somehow a less noble goal than any other is arrogant at best, neglecting the ideals of capitalism
.

No one is saying trying to make the most money is bad. Read the OP's question...it say's how much money would it take to make you "happy". I find it laughable that people say they will be miserable with "just" $150,000/year. I will get attacked for this but if you won't be happy unless you make $200,000+, then you probably shouldn't have become a doctor.

 

[jdh71]

I will get attacked for this but if you won't be happy unless you make $200,000+, then you probably shouldn't have become a doctor.

I'll bite. Why?

 

[TAWS]

I'll bite. Why?

If you are just focused on making six figures, you should become a miner.

Miners easily make $200,000/year.... and you don't even need a high school degree! Some companies will even pay for room and board.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577016172350869312.html

My point is you don't become a doctor for the money. I wouldn't take a $200,000 mining job over something I would have fun doing everyday even if I got paid minimum wage.

 

[Slack3r]

In the words of Kanye West, "Having money's not everything, not having it is".


[YOUTUBE]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FEKEjpTzB0Q[/YOUTUBE]

 

[jdh71]

If you are just focused on making six figures, you should become a miner.

Miners easily make $200,000/year.... and you don't even need a college degree! Some of them don't even have to pay for room and board.

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424052970204621904577016172350869312.html

My point is you don't become a doctor for the money. I wouldn't take a $200,000 mining job over something I would have fun doing everyday even if I get paid minimum wage.

If your point is that you can make the same money or more doing something else, which no one denies, it still doesn't follow that this means you shouldn't have been a doctor if you do want to make a lot of money.

 

[TAWS]

If your point is that you can make the same money or more doing something else, which no one denies, it still doesn't follow that this means you shouldn't have been a doctor if you do want to make a lot of money.

When you had interviews and had to write your AMCAS essay about why you wanted to become a doctor, did you say it was to make more than $200,000 per year?

I see it all the time. Premeds saying they aren't in it for the money and then get into medical school and get hyped up by the high salaries their friends make, so they expect $200K+ or they will be unhappy. I'm just saying the reasons I gave as a premed as to why I wanted to become a doctor haven't changed.

 

[2012mdc]

When you had interviews and had to write your AMCAS essay about why you wanted to become a doctor, did you say it was to make more than $200,000 per year?

I see it all the time. Premeds saying they aren't in it for the money and then get into medical school and get hyped up by the high salaries their friends make, so they expect $200K+ or they will be unhappy. I'm just saying the reasons I gave as a premed as to why I wanted to become a doctor haven't changed.

Just because money isn't the primary reason you choose a field doesn't you mean you can't ask to be fairly compensated.

Anyone in any field wants to be fairly compensated. We can agree to disagree on what fair compensation is but it's a stretch to imply that someone with a different expectation is in the wrong.

You didn't go into medicine for the money. Would you be happy making 40K a year? That's nearly double the poverty line for a family of 4 and much much more than most people in the world make.

 

[bomgd3]

I'm currently interested in neuro, path, and ENT. I'd be happy making $200k with good lifestyle in neuro or path, but I think fair compensation for ENT would be $300k. Operating on heads is no joke.

 

[jdh71]

When you had interviews and had to write your AMCAS essay about why you wanted to become a doctor, did you say it was to make more than $200,000 per year?

I see it all the time. Premeds saying they aren't in it for the money and then get into medical school and get hyped up by the high salaries their friends make, so they expect $200K+ or they will be unhappy. I'm just saying the reasons I gave as a premed as to why I wanted to become a doctor haven't changed.

They haven't changed for me either. How does wanting to make as much as I possibly can make me the kind of person who shouldn't be a doctor?

Did you perhaps engage in a little rhetorical hyperbole trying to make your real point, or are you still going to double down on that assertion?

 

[TAWS]

They haven't changed for me either. How does wanting to make as much as I possibly can make me the kind of person who shouldn't be a doctor?

Did you perhaps engage in a little rhetorical hyperbole trying to make your real point, or are you still going to double down on that assertion?

Read what I said in a previous post....there's nothing wrong with trying to make the most money but there is something wrong with being "unhappy" if you don't make the most money.

If you are in a job that you love, you should not be "unhappy" because you aren't making the most money.

I repeated it twice in case you have trouble reading. If you want to be hostile about this discussion, I can too.

 

[IHeartNerds]

500 g.

porsche doesn't pay for itself.

(nsurg resident)

 

[LoveandHate]

Read what I said in a previous post....there's nothing wrong with trying to make the most money but there is something wrong with being "unhappy" if you don't make the most money.

If you are in a job that you love, you should not be "unhappy" because you aren't making the most money.

I repeated it twice in case you have trouble reading. If you want to be hostile about this discussion, I can too.

Different things make different people happy. While I tend to believe that there are more and less optimal ways to be happy it isn't up to you (or me) to decide for everyone else.

In my case, no physician's salary would make a surgical lifestyle until retirement acceptable. I would rather have time off to play around with girls or travel. I'm still young so maybe my perspective will change when/if i get tired of being a vagabond. Maybe my perspective is different because I have already owned a very expensive car. I've already lived in a big house all by myself. All the toys were cool at first but then became nothing special. The grass is always greener and I've already lived on this side (albeit thanks to my parents). What makes life fun isn't the amount of money you have. It's having a relaxed, low stress life to explore the world, get into trouble, meet people, explore, etc. I'm on my own now... drive a nissan, live in a smaller apartment... I'm super busy in medical school. I want to go back to having a relaxed lifestyle, low stress, plenty of time to play around/do anything I want. You don't need a 500K salary for that... well I don't.

I hope you guys find what you're looking for ($$$) and that it's as satisfying as you had hoped.

 

[jdh71]

Read what I said in a previous post....there's nothing wrong with trying to make the most money but there is something wrong with being "unhappy" if you don't make the most money.

If you are in a job that you love, you should not be "unhappy" because you aren't making the most money.

I repeated it twice in case you have trouble reading. If you want to be hostile about this discussion, I can too.

Well . . . I'm not convinced your lack of clarity here is all my fault . . .

You can like your job without liking your pay. I'd be "unhappy" making peanuts after all of this training even if I liked my job. I can be a great doc and not like what I get paid. And not liking what I get paid, still doesn't seem like it follows as a reason to not be a physician in the first place.

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[TAWS]

Well . . . I'm not convinced your lack of clarity here is all my fault . . .

You can like your job without liking your pay. I'd be "unhappy" making peanuts after all of this training even if I liked my job. I can be a great doc and not like what I get paid. And not liking what I get paid, still doesn't seem like it follows as a reason to not be a physician in the first place.

What you would like to have is not the same thing as what would make you happy. I think the easiest way to convince you of this is for you to read at least the abstract of the paper I posted earlier.

http://www.pnas.org/content/107/38/16489

Look, people should do whatever makes them happy. I just caution people getting into medicine because of money since I don't think they will end up happy.

 

[jdh71]

Look, people should do whatever makes them happy. I just caution people onmedicine who can become happy/unhappy just by money.

That's probably fair. Though, I don't think most people are doing medicine to just get paid even if we think it's a bonus of the only profession I know that makes you train for so freaking long before you actually get to begin working independently. I think we should get paid whatever the market (whatever the market is [I'm not interesting in a discussion about how medicine isn't truly a really "free market']) will pay me for doing honest work. The end. If I think the market can pay me 300k-500k and I'm only getting 100k-200k, that will bother me. I will not be "happy" with pay that is below what I "should" (or perhaps it is better said, "have the potential to") be making. A person can be pretty content making enough money (however much it is) to provide 4 walls, a roof, heat when it's cold, cold when it's hot, food and water, but that wasn't really what I thought the discussion was about.

 

[ToldYouSo]

Making over $100,000 puts you in the 94% percentile. Seems kind of sad that some on here wouldn't be happy unless they were in the top 1%.

After 12+ years of post high school education, 6 figure debt, and the massive opportunity cost in terms of not earning any income and missing out on compound interest on retirement savings (where starting early counts the most) what's sad is that talking about salary elicits such a response. Comparing the general population to a physician is laughable at best because most of the general public do not:
1) go to college
2) move on to professional school, much less medicine
3) Work 80+ hours a week plus call during years of residency
4) Have large school loans compounding during said years
5) Open themselves up to the chance of a lawsuit & pay a lot for malpractice

Good luck financing a house, taking care of a family and managing the unexpected expenses life brings with 100k when your that far in the red financially.

 

[mjl1717]

When you had interviews and had to write your AMCAS essay about why you wanted to become a doctor, did you say it was to make more than $200,000 per year?

I see it all the time. Premeds saying they aren't in it for the money and then get into medical school and get hyped up by the high salaries their friends make, so they expect $200K+ or they will be unhappy. I'm just saying the reasons I gave as a premed as to why I wanted to become a doctor haven't changed.

That's funny..Being a "royal knucklehead" and telling the interviewer you just want to be a doctor in order to make more than $200,000 per year..

 

[Daedra22]

If I can pay taxes and malpractice insurance and still take home 150k+/year, I will be very happy. Satisfaction with a lower salary may have something to do with the fact that I've never wanted kids. I think if I planned to have one or more children that I might be more concerned with earning a higher salary.

 

[auburnO5]

I always laugh at these threads. Med students tend to think that it is just so easy to "go in to business" and make $150,000.

 

[thepoopologist]

I would love to pull in $300,000/year, whether it is all from one source or from my main gig + odd jobs here and there.

$1 million cash in the bank and a consistent $300,000/year income by 40-45 years old, with an easily accessible, broad fund of knowledge and know-how for my job. That's when I think things will be smooth sailing, at least with that part of my life.

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[carml]

I always laugh at these threads. Med students tend to think that it is just so easy to "go in to business" and make $150,000.

Thank you for a voice of reason!

"Ye, um, medicine is a terribly inefficient way to make money...um, instead go be an I-banker or start a successful start-up and sell after a few years...or um, just like run a successful company and pay yourself around 200K. Oh, and you can like totally reach such platitudes in totally less than 9 years and it's not like you ever have to borrow money to start a company and it's not like over 90% of all start-ups fail within the first 5 years...and like, my father's brother's friend is in I-banking and brings home 500K and works less then 30hrs..."😴

 

[auburnO5]

Thank you for a voice of reason!

"Ye, um, medicine is a terribly inefficient way to make money...um, instead go be an I-banker or start a successful start-up and sell after a few years...or um, just like run a successful company and pay yourself around 200K. Oh, and you can like totally reach such platitudes in totally less than 9 years and it's not like you ever have to borrow money to start a company and it's not like over 90% of all start-ups fail within the first 5 years...and like, my father's brother's friend is in I-banking and brings home 500K and works less then 30hrs..."😴

lol yeah. I've seen quite a few of these threads before and they always have those posts.

"I could have just gone into accounting and been making $200,000 in a few years"

"I should have just gone to a top 5 law school and then been making bank immediately after graduating"

"I could have opened up my own investing firm and be well on my way to $500,000/year by the time I was 27"

All of these things are RIDICULOUSLY hard to do!!

People making $100k + a year aren't in the 95th % for no reason. That's a lot of money these days in this current economy. Combine that with great job security (seriously, name another profession with better job security), great pay, leadership, prestige, and just getting to do cool ****, I think it's a pretty damn good gig we have.

Obviously a lot of it sucks, school is long, residency is long, hours are long, the work can really wear you down at times. But compared to the alternatives, if you enjoy medicine at all, it's for sure a great path.

 

[Daedra22]

Thank you for a voice of reason!

"Ye, um, medicine is a terribly inefficient way to make money...um, instead go be an I-banker or start a successful start-up and sell after a few years...or um, just like run a successful company and pay yourself around 200K. Oh, and you can like totally reach such platitudes in totally less than 9 years and it's not like you ever have to borrow money to start a company and it's not like over 90% of all start-ups fail within the first 5 years...and like, my father's brother's friend is in I-banking and brings home 500K and works less then 30hrs..."😴

I think the thing that makes this such a valid point is that medicine is one of very few fields where if you work hard and jump through all the hoops, the average person is pulling in $150,000 or much more. Success in business takes a combination of connections, cunning, business sense and a whole lot of luck (even more luck than getting into medical school, where this also plays a role). Personally lacking most of these elements, I'll place my money, quite literally, on my medical career.

 

[Caesar]

~200K/ year 40-50 Hours/week avg. More as I get older. I don't plan on just doing medicine though so maybe more.

 

[expendible]

Don't be givin the medical doctor's no tree fitty.

Seriously also, ~150-200k by career's end.

Agree (taking account inflation 🙄), dont really need much, just enough. Mo money mo problems.

RIP BIG

 

[carml]

Success in business takes a combination of connections, cunning, business sense and a whole lot of luck (even more luck than getting into medical school, where this also plays a role).

I think the fallacy that most of us pre-meds/med students make is making this implicit assumption that since we're above average academically, we will also be above average in business/outside of medicine. And so a plethora of more efficient >200K/yr opportunities outside of medicine that can be achieved before we're 32 suddenly and almost magically "open up."

Unfortunately, book smart ≠ business savvy or ability to work your way up the corporate ladder to a >200K lever before you're 32 or ability to become a >200K I-banker or...

 

[N428ra]

Sorry but are you serious? I used to make 95+ a year, and yes I don't know what kind of life you want, but let me tell you that does not go far. I like the toys.

 

[2012mdc]

I always laugh at these threads. Med students tend to think that it is just so easy to "go in to business" and make $150,000.

It's not easy but here are a couple of my friends situations (none went to a top 5 law school but some went to a top 5 undergrad). I would say we're of similar intelligence range and none of us are "geniuses"

One graduated UG making 90 and a year late was making 100 after getting a masters. 10 years out of college I'm sure he'll be making more than 150

One friend graduated law school (not a top one) making 175. So obviously 10 years out he'll above 150.

Another graduated law school and choose the DA route. Much less money but 10 years out he'll be making more than 150.

My field requires 10 years of commitment before I make 6 figures. It's not ridiculous to say 150 isn't enough when I have friends of similar abilities who make that within 5 years of graduating and don't have the same debt burden.

No it's not easy to make 150 in other fields but med school isn't easy either. If I had an interest in law I could put similar hours in as a lawyer and make real money at a much earlier stage.

 

[armybound]

Read what I said in a previous post....there's nothing wrong with trying to make the most money but there is something wrong with being "unhappy" if you don't make the most money.

If you are in a job that you love, you should not be "unhappy" because you aren't making the most money.

I repeated it twice in case you have trouble reading. If you want to be hostile about this discussion, I can too.

There's clearly a delineation between being happy with your job and being happy with your salary.

I'm sure the average person would be thrilled to make $300k, but if you're the only neurosurgeon in your state making $300k working full-time when everyone else is making $500k, that might lead you to be unhappy with your salary.

My wife just got her first job as an assistant professor. Her salary is by no means bad, but it's $15,000 less than her boss wanted her to be paid and $24,000 less than is average for her job nationally. Is her salary good? Sure. Does she have reason to be a little disappointed that she's getting paid less than the bottom quartile for her job? Absolutely.

 

[CATrtb]

I will be early forties when I start practice, with >$350K in loans, $0 in retirement, and some kids a few years away from college. I've calculated I will need approximately $322,300 gross for the "break even point" of this being financially sensible.

 

[dnl2111]

if you have $1mil cash in the bank you are absolutely loaded. It's possible if you don't spend lots of money but that'll probably be hard if you're making a consistent 300k/year and especially once your debts are paid off.

If you have $1 million cash in the bank then you're not very smart. First Tennessee Bank offers 0.30% interest on its Premier Plus checking account, a little higher than its money market accounts' interest rate. With historic inflation rates being around 3.5%, that leaves a 3.2% spread. So...you'd lose $32,000 by leaving it in the bank.

And...the historic returns on Large- and Small-cap stocks over the past 29 years, using the Russell 1000 & 2000 Indices, have been 13.19% and 12.78%, respectively (Ibbotson & Associates gives even number, 12.06% and 14.46%). Assuming a diversified portfolio with equal parts Large- and Small-cap, that gives an average of 12.99%. After inflation, that's ~9.5%. So the actual opportunity cost of keeping it "in the bank" instead of investing it (the past couple of economic recession years notwithstanding) is 9.2%, or $92,000! Spread that out over 10 years, and the lost growth is $1.4 million! What's that after federal income tax, like, $50,000 or something like that? lol

 

[Miss Alyssa]

I had this conversation with 2 classmates recently. Both of them said they would be more than happy with ~$150,000 (especially if they didn't have loans to worry about). I gave a number significantly higher than that and they seemed very disappointed in me. They talked about how someone shouldn't go into medicine for money. They mentioned how doctors are not entitled to make a lot just because they work a lot. Both of them said that their single parents worked hard too and work for well over 40 hours a week and do not get paid anywhere near six figures. They talked about how growing up they didn't feel as though they went without due to how much their parent made.

One of them actually brought it up again the next day, asking if I had given it further thought. 😕

I didn't really defend my position well because it's difficult when I come from such a different financial background. I grew up in a 2 parent home with each of my parents making six figures now (wasn't always that way). The lifestyle of $200,000 isn't foreign to me. I have a pretty good understanding of what you can do with that type of money. Someone in this thread said that $200,000 would be in the top 5% of the country. I think that amount would give you a lot in terms of security (property, investments, supporting children and aging parents, retirement) and some in terms of life's luxuries (nice neighborhood, cars, private schools, vacations, 'toys'). It's not going to catapult you into the level of the rich and the famous, but you and yours won't have to 'worry' about money.

Question: Why is it so taboo for med students to talk/think about salaries?

 

[Slack3r]

Question: Why is it so taboo for med students to talk/think about salaries?

Some people drink the Kool-Aid early.

 

[badasshairday]

I don't need to be rich. I just need enough to live comfortably, pay off my loans, start savings. Since I will be starting much later than my peers in other industries, I think 200+ is the minimum for this. Would I like to make more? Yes. Could I get by on ~150K, yes. I have 200K+ in loans accruing at 6.8%. It is going to take time to pay that off. I don't think we should begrudge physicians for making the money they do, in fact there is always constant downward pressure on salaries... I think we should all be making more, but it is what it is. That is life, nobody owes us anything.

 

[D elegans]

Question: Why is it so taboo for med students to talk/think about salaries?

It is immoral for doctors to make money off of sick people. They should be wageless slaves of the state.

 

[mjl1717]

I think the fallacy that most of us pre-meds/med students make is making this implicit assumption that since we're above average academically, we will also be above average in business/outside of medicine. And so a plethora of more efficient >200K/yr opportunities outside of medicine that can be achieved before we're 32 suddenly and almost magically "open up."

Unfortunately, book smart ≠ business savvy or ability to work your way up the corporate ladder to a >200K lever before you're 32 or ability to become a >200K I-banker or...

Excellent.

 

[PsP for real]

$180,000+ working 40hrs/week or less would be pretty bad a if you ask me. 👍

 

[mjl1717]

It is immoral for doctors to make money off of sick people. They should be wageless slaves of the state.

Ok, what you say is funny but!

1.I think you are partially correct, but the wageless part does not have to be that dramatic since you have to eat, etc....

2.I do not want to burn in hell being greedy greedy ..

3.Mo money more problems is true! (Greedy guys get cancer and leukemias sometimes when they least expect it.!)

4. What you do with your money has a lot to do with it.. (Id say 150k to 200k is somewhat comfortable)

5.If someone is in this medical field only for money. They are better off working with the sleazy wall street group or being a dirty lawyer.. (Some to these guys ignore ther own sweating and palpitations) [Not my cup of tea]

6.Here is something I recently found out..The top 1% means that person makes above $380,000k per year plus they make good investments.. (Im not saying Im striving for that!!)

 

[rigid]

At least 600k net, shouldn't be too hard to get.

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[Radonkulous]

That's probably fair. Though, I don't think most people are doing medicine to just get paid even if we think it's a bonus of the only profession I know that makes you train for so freaking long before you actually get to begin working independently. I think we should get paid whatever the market (whatever the market is [I'm not interesting in a discussion about how medicine isn't truly a really "free market']) will pay me for doing honest work. The end. If I think the market can pay me 300k-500k and I'm only getting 100k-200k, that will bother me. I will not be "happy" with pay that is below what I "should" (or perhaps it is better said, "have the potential to") be making. A person can be pretty content making enough money (however much it is) to provide 4 walls, a roof, heat when it's cold, cold when it's hot, food and water, but that wasn't really what I thought the discussion was about.

So you're issue is getting paid whatever the market will bear, not necessarily a specific amount. So let me ask you this, if tmrw the govt were to cut pulm/cc doc incomes to about 150k/yr would you still be happy as the market (the government indirectly in this case) feels this is the max it is willing to bear?

 

[Radonkulous]

yes exactly! I just don't understand all the people on this thread who all say lower than 200k or even 300k. A great majority of doctors make at least 200k unless you are the in low 25% end in medicine fields not working very much. In essence, it is not hard at all to make 300k.

If you feel "bad" about making too much money then do charity work and donate your extra money to charities.

Dude, where are you getting these rad docs making 700k+? On average it is about 400k.

 

[jdh71]

So you're issue is getting paid whatever the market will bear, not necessarily a specific amount. So let me ask you this, if tmrw the govt were to cut pulm/cc doc incomes to about 150k/yr would you still be happy as the market (the government indirectly in this case) feels this is the max it is willing to bear?

It's not my world, I just live here . . . passing through 😉

The max is the max. I'm not even sure what you're trying to get on about.

Repression? Because that's what I'm on about!!

 

[officedepot]

.

 

[mjl1717]

So you're issue is getting paid whatever the market will bear, not necessarily a specific amount. So let me ask you this, if tmrw the govt were to cut pulm/cc doc incomes to about 150k/yr would you still be happy as the market (the government indirectly in this case) feels this is the max it is willing to bear?

In support of your thought.. And as you know Medicare, Medicaid, Insurance companies under pressure from congress can change the rules at any time..It may not be the right time to be greedy!

I find that two things can make people blind..Love and Greed..

 

[thomprya]

MO MONEY = MO PROBLEMS ...... That being said I'm quite the problem solver so 300k 40hrs wk sounds pretty good to me

 

[Kadava Reviva]

Oral surgeon salary potential is upwards of 1 million in private practice. Plus I get to come home and play XBOX after 6 p.m. every night. Nice.....

I believe oral surgery in the domain of dentists.