how can med schools teach ethics...

[novawildcat]

when they will blatantly let people through their screens and give them secondaries to fill out when they know they have no chance at all at being accepted into the school? Is it really ethical for medical schools to accept secondary fee money from 100s and 1000s of students that they know will have no shot at gaining entrance since their MCAT and GPA are not good enough?


the people hurt the most are the students who are lower middle class who "make too much money" to not qualify for fee assistance, but whose families are barely making ends meet. having to spend $3000 on app. fees to 10-20 schools is simply crushing to these students and their families. why are med schools able to get away with basically robbing these student out of $100 for the secondary if they know they aren't going to get in?

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[smeagol]

Evil exists. It's found in more surprising places than just medical school.

 

[Bacchus]

Why would you pay the $30 to begin with to send it to the school you're not going to get into? My EFC is extremely low, so I know that money is an issue. I don't plan on applying to schools that I know I won't get into. A few reaches are fine, but it comes down to the applicant. The private schools needs to make money somehow, and this is one of the ways.

 

[TheRealMD]

when they will blatantly let people through their screens and give them secondaries to fill out when they know they have no chance at all at being accepted into the school? Is it really ethical for medical schools to accept secondary fee money from 100s and 1000s of students that they know will have no shot at gaining entrance since their MCAT and GPA are not good enough?


the people hurt the most are the students who are lower middle class who "make too much money" to not qualify for fee assistance, but whose families are barely making ends meet. having to spend $3000 on app. fees to 10-20 schools is simply crushing to these students and their families. why are med schools able to get away with basically robbing these student out of $100 for the secondary if they know they aren't going to get in?

They do this because MCAT/GPA are not the only thing they care about. MCAT/GPA cutoffs exists for a few reasons:

1) For OOS applicants, they only want the best of the best, otherwise they'll pick someone in-state whose more likely to stay in that state later on in life.
2) For most schools, they want people who can pass through the rigors of medical school. Unfortunately, the only way you can show that is from MCAT/GPA
3) It's the easiest and most cost-effective way to reduce thousands of applications to hundreds where it becomes a bit more managable to invite people to interviews and truly discover what applicants are like.

Secondary appications give schools a way to ask a specific set of questions they feel best weed out applicants based on a school's mission statement. Sure, stellar stats usually bypass this check anyway, but for those who don't, a secondary is a good way to show that you are committed to THEIR school, especially when people often apply to 15-30 schools on average. They don't want people who are excited to go to med school, they want people who are excited to go to THEIR med school.

And it's just that these essays can't be on AMCAS. The fee is to prevent people from randomly send applications to their school since there's no "loss".

 

[sgglaze]

Evil exists. It's found in more surprising places than just medical school.

It also exists in the desolate wastes of MORDOR

 

[novawildcat]

They do this because MCAT/GPA are not the only thing they care about. MCAT/GPA cutoffs exists for a few reasons:

1) For OOS applicants, they only want the best of the best, otherwise they'll pick someone in-state whose more likely to stay in that state later on in life.
2) For most schools, they want people who can pass through the rigors of medical school. Unfortunately, the only way you can show that is from MCAT/GPA
3) It's the easiest and most cost-effective way to reduce thousands of applications to hundreds where it becomes a bit more managable to invite people to interviews and truly discover what applicants are like.

Secondary appications give schools a way to ask a specific set of questions they feel best weed out applicants based on a school's mission statement. Sure, stellar stats usually bypass this check anyway, but for those who don't, a secondary is a good way to show that you are committed to THEIR school, especially when people often apply to 15-30 schools on average. They don't want people who are excited to go to med school, they want people who are excited to go to THEIR med school.

And it's just that these essays can't be on AMCAS. The fee is to prevent people from randomly send applications to their school since there's no "loss".

You can setup the process just a little bit differently. Instead of making secondary fees, why not let there be free secondaries, and then have "interviewing fees" instead?

This way you still are able to examine applicants by more than just their GPA/MCAT, you still get to read their LOR, life experiences etc. Med schools could charge "interviewing fees" to people that they will actually interview and that actually have a chance at gaining admission. The interviewing fees could also be set a little bit higher to cover some of the cost that would be lost from the secondary app. fees to say something like $200-$300.

Most people will send out what 10-20 apps and get interviewed at say maybe 6-8 max.? With an "interview fee" of say $300 you would spend about $1800.

This way people who have no shot at a school also aren't being scammed out of their application money.

 

[smeagol]

It also exists in the desolate wastes of MORDOR

you are correct!

 

[TheRealMD]

You can setup the process just a little bit differently. Instead of making secondary fees, why not let there be free secondaries, and then have "interviewing fees" instead?

This way you still are able to examine applicants by more than just their GPA/MCAT, you still get to read their LOR, life experiences etc. Med schools could charge "interviewing fees" to people that they will actually interview and that actually have a chance at gaining admission. The interviewing fees could also be set a little bit higher to cover some of the cost that would be lost from the secondary app. fees to say something like $200-$300.

Most people will send out what 10-20 apps and get interviewed at say maybe 6-8 max.? With an "interview fee" of say $300 you would spend about $1800.

This way people who have no shot at a school also aren't being scammed out of their application money.

Honestly, I don't think schools WANT to read more applications. The amount of reading required to fully understand an application and make a decision on it is incredibly high.

 

[CardiacIntensivist]

No one is holding a gun to that applicant's head to apply to 20+ schools. It is all choice. If the applicant applied smart and had a clue about the process, he need not waste money. I do wish secondaries were cheaper though. Where does all the money go? Certainly not to those $20 walmart platters I got at all my interviews

 

[DrBowtie]

You can setup the process just a little bit differently. Instead of making secondary fees, why not let there be free secondaries, and then have "interviewing fees" instead?

This way you still are able to examine applicants by more than just their GPA/MCAT, you still get to read their LOR, life experiences etc. Med schools could charge "interviewing fees" to people that they will actually interview and that actually have a chance at gaining admission. The interviewing fees could also be set a little bit higher to cover some of the cost that would be lost from the secondary app. fees to say something like $200-$300.

Most people will send out what 10-20 apps and get interviewed at say maybe 6-8 max.? With an "interview fee" of say $300 you would spend about $1800.

This way people who have no shot at a school also aren't being scammed out of their application money.

Under your proposed system, I think it hurts applicants who are strapped for cash more since it requires that interview costs and the "interview fee" be paid all at once. Plane ticket & hotel plus 300$ is some serious capital to raise on short notice.

Atleast with secondary fees, cash strapped people can submit them as they earn enough to cover the fees instead of all at once like your proposed system.

 

[Funky]

Believe it or not, medical schools need money to build nicer buildings and things like that.

 

[TheRealMD]

Believe it or not, medical schools need money to build nicer buildings and things like that.

They COULD just charge students more tuition since they're just getting loans anyway!

 

[novawildcat]

Atleast with secondary fees, cash strapped people can submit them as they earn enough to cover the fees instead of all at once like your proposed system.

Using the same argument then doesn't this system we have now then hurt cash strapped individuals just as much then since they have to wait until they have enough money to send in the secondary app.? According to the 10000s of posts on SDN you need to send in your secondary app. ASAP, so lower income students are put at just as much disadvantage since they have to wait until they get the money.

Also, interview fees would obviously be waived for lower income students.

Plus it doesn't take a bright person to know that you should be saving money for potential interviews. A lower income student has to come up with the $$$ for a hotel and travel anyway if they are offered an interview no matter which proposed admissions process we are talking about here.

No one is holding a gun to that applicant's head to apply to 20+ schools. It is all choice. If the applicant applied smart and had a clue about the process, he need not waste money. I do wish secondaries were cheaper though. Where does all the money go? Certainly not to those $20 walmart platters I got at all my interviews

True, but people wouldn't be applying to 16+ schools if this whole process wasn't such a crapshoot.



It blows my mind how it doesn't bother you people that schools are taking our money when they know with 90% confidence that you won't even be admitted let alone even granted an interview. That would be like selling 200 tickets to a movie theater that only holds 100 people and telling the 100 people that didn't get in that they can't get a refund.

 

[Funky]

They COULD just charge students more tuition since they're just getting loans anyway!

Yes but to get the same amount as 8000 secondaries all priced at 100 dollars, they would have to increase tuition of 600 students by over 1300.

 

[Funky]

It blows my mind how it doesn't bother you people that schools are taking our money when they know with 90% confidence that you won't even be admitted let alone even granted an interview. That would be like selling 200 tickets to a movie theater that only holds 100 people and telling the 100 people that didn't get in that they can't get a refund.

It's not the same thing. Unless the movie theater decides to allow people to watch the movie based on GPA, a standardized exam, personal statements, ECs, LOR, etc. You're just viewing it as every moviegoer is equal.

Plus the movie theater would have to give you a very nice rejection letter and at least a glance at your application.

 

[maestro1625]

They COULD just charge students more tuition since they're just getting loans anyway!

I wouldn't want that... less money for me to pay while putting the burden on those who didn't get in/chose not to attend.

 

[DrBowtie]

Using the same argument then doesn't this system we have now then hurt cash strapped individuals just as much then since they have to wait until they have enough money to send in the secondary app.? According to the 10000s of posts on SDN you need to send in your secondary app. ASAP, so lower income students are put at just as much disadvantage since they have to wait until they get the money.

Also, interview fees would obviously be waived for lower income students.

Plus it doesn't take a bright person to know that you should be saving money for potential interviews. A lower income student has to come up with the $$$ for a hotel and travel anyway if they are offered an interview no matter which proposed admissions process we are talking about here.





True, but people wouldn't be applying to 16+ schools if this whole process wasn't such a crapshoot.



It blows my mind how it doesn't bother you people that schools are taking our money when they know with 90% confidence that you won't even be admitted let alone even granted an interview. That would be like selling 200 tickets to a movie theater that only holds 100 people and telling the 100 people that didn't get in that they can't get a refund.

AMCAS and secondary fees are waived for low income students too so its moot there. Taking the interview costs out of the equation still leads to being nickel and dimed by secondary fees or one big chunk as an interview fee being the same. You'll just feel like your money is going towards someting more substantial. Your complaint is that more people should qualify for waivers using your original income bracket. I don't think anyone would ever claim having more money isn't beneficial in this process, but such is life.

As for your movie theater analogy, it doesn't hold. Everyone doesn't have an equal shot. For a marginal applicant, its like a standby airline ticket. All the great applicants have seats and you're buying a chance at the slim selection thats left. The better you can evaluate your chances, the more money you can save in the process.

 

[maestro1625]

and umm... if the school knows with 90% certainty that the applicant isn't getting an interview, why doesn't the applicant know that? It's not the school's fault the applicant didn't do the research and compare numbers.

 

[Funky]

and umm... if the school knows with 90% certainty that the applicant isn't getting an interview, why doesn't the applicant know that? It's not the school's fault the applicant didn't do the research and compare numbers.

touche

 

[novawildcat]

and umm... if the school knows with 90% certainty that the applicant isn't getting an interview, why doesn't the applicant know that? It's not the school's fault the applicant didn't do the research and compare numbers.

So what if you are one of the 1000s of applicants with say a 3.4-3.7 and 28-33 MCAT? You numbers will fall right in line with the average stats with those matriculated at TON of schools' websites. Someone with those stats will apply to say 10-15 schools, only get interviews at probably 5 or 6 but is still going to have to pay $1200 to the 10 schools that didn't even grant them an interview. Med schools hold all the cards when it comes to admission, student's have no idea what is running through adcoms heads.

 

[LifetimeDoc]

You can setup the process just a little bit differently. Instead of making secondary fees, why not let there be free secondaries, and then have "interviewing fees" instead?

This way you still are able to examine applicants by more than just their GPA/MCAT, you still get to read their LOR, life experiences etc. Med schools could charge "interviewing fees" to people that they will actually interview and that actually have a chance at gaining admission. The interviewing fees could also be set a little bit higher to cover some of the cost that would be lost from the secondary app. fees to say something like $200-$300.

Most people will send out what 10-20 apps and get interviewed at say maybe 6-8 max.? With an "interview fee" of say $300 you would spend about $1800.

This way people who have no shot at a school also aren't being scammed out of their application money.

Great idea! But, then they'd be scared to lose candidates that didn't want to shell out the $300-500 for their school plus expensive travel expenses. It'd make for happier students they want to shift the expenses on the hapless pre-meds who think they can get in.

"Bird in the hand is better than two in the bush."

They can generate a lot of money, let's say $75 secondary fee times 10000 applicants...bank!...$750,000. You've just paid for half (or whatever large percentage) of your entire admissions department on the backs of the applying students!). Plus, just like the medical profession, I'm sure that medical school admissions are just as good at resisting change.

I suspect in the future they'll just keep upping the secondary fee as a way to discourage people from flooding their admissions with more applications. Won't work, and you'll end up paying even more to apply.

 

[LizzyM]

So what if you are one of the 1000s of applicants with say a 3.4-3.7 and 28-33 MCAT? You numbers will fall right in line with the average stats with those matriculated at TON of schools' websites. Someone with those stats will apply to say 10-15 schools, only get interviews at probably 5 or 6 but is still going to have to pay $1200 to the 10 schools that didn't even grant them an interview. Med schools hold all the cards when it comes to admission, student's have no idea what is running through adcoms heads.

Pre-secondary screening rules out some very talented, but unconventional applicants.

Here's what might be running through the adcom member's head when making a decision about interview:

Academics: does the applicant have what it takes academically to be successful in med school? Sometimes, gpa & MCAT doesn't tell the whole story and someone who might have been cut pre-secondary, is actually a very impressive applicant. Has the applicant taken a well-rounded course of study? Has the applicant studied some subject in greater depth? Has the applicant done well in the pre-reqs?
LORs: any red flags raised by the letter writers? Any additional information about the applicant that is noteworthy? (personal traits, specific academic acheivements)
Essays: structure and grammar acceptable? clear communication and reasoning? motivation for medicine? -- sometimes: has the applicant articulated a particular interest in this school?
Scholarly activity: Research, writing, similar activities. Evidence of an interest in life-long learning?
Other interests/activities: Is this an "interesting person" who would be fun to talk with? Has the applicant had some exposure to clinical situations? (some adcoms might be looking specifically for shadowing experience) Does the applicant's personality come shining through in the application?

Narrowing down the applications from several thousand to a few hundred is a painful process for the adcom. At my school there are at least 3 layers of review and it pains us to have far more excellent applicants than we have interview slots.

It seems that many students use a scattershot pattern in applying when some homework and a targeted approach would bring the same result at far less cost. (I'd estimate that a targeted approach with applications to 10-15 schools is sufficient.)

 

[LifetimeDoc]

It seems that many students use a scattershot pattern in applying when some homework and a targeted approach would bring the same result at far less cost. (I'd estimate that a targeted approach with applications to 10-15 schools is sufficient.)

That only works if you have a balanced GPA and MCAT, and can make comparisons with the MSAR listings of GPA/MCAT. All the other aspects that you mention (thanks for listing them, they'll be a great help for people who are applying to think about!) are hidden from view. All we have to go on is GPA/MCAT, our state schools, and what our advisers/professors/friends (which is pretty low quality) say. If you are one of those students with a convoluted GPA and high MCAT (or unbalanced MCAT and stellar GPA), the MSAR doesn't give you much information, and you end up "scattershooting" with some homework done (which may or may not have been effective).

I wish the secondary process was truly a secondary application in that the school took the time to actually look at the AMCAS application (not just the numbers, which they rarely look anyways as many don't screen secondaries). There is plenty of information there, or maybe schools should lobby the AMCAS to include LORs as part of the process (like pharmacy does) so you could get all this info to make your secondary decision. You could do all the above screening you mention and reduce the number of secondaries you'd need to process (including all those extra essays), and thus the expense of the students (though you'd reduce your own incoming funds) and still interview those exceptional students who didn't fit the cutoff-values.

 

[ryandote]

They COULD just charge students more tuition since they're just getting loans anyway!

meh.

Subsidization is a bad thing. Costs should be levied on those who get the benefits. That's the only way to keep everyone from applying to every single school out there, because they share none of the application cost.

Now, whether they are charging more than they have to is another question. It would be interesting to figure out if they try to maximize revenue or optimize applicant #'s or whatever when they pick a secondary fee.

 

[littlealex]

Waahh, mom they were mean to me! Wahh wahhh.

Here's 35cents, go call someone that cares.

 

[postbacker]

I seriously doubt if med schools make any money out of app fees that doesn't go directly to paying for the staff to run the system...in fact, my guess is that they all technically "lose" money in the app process...it is the cost of doing business, and the app fees defray some, but in now way all, of the costs associated with admissions...

 

[notdeadyet]

I think there are two different types of schools on this issue. There are the ones that Lizzy is describing. These schools, which may be reaches for you, still review your application multiple times by multiple people, seeing if there is something in your secondaries that can boost what your app may lack in GPA, MCAT, or ECs. I have no problem with these schools.

There are also schools that realistically must have already decided on you, as your rejection comes back a day or two after receipt of your secondary. I've had a couple of med schools like that. Bad business.

 

[Funky]

Waahh, mom they were mean to me! Wahh wahhh.

Here's 35cents, go call someone that cares.

remember the good old days when a phone call was 25 cents?

 

[proclivity]

Yes but to get the same amount as 8000 secondaries all priced at 100 dollars, they would have to increase tuition of 600 students by over 1300.

valid point.

We all understand that it is expensive to apply to medical school. However, applying to 30+ school is absolutely useless unless you are a very adamant about getting into medical school for whatever reason. (perhaps some have a less than lucrative degree from undergrad education)

 

[proclivity]

remember the good old days when a phone call was 25 cents?

i think it is 50 cents now......if you can find a pay phone, that is.

 

[notdeadyet]

remember the good old days when a phone call was 25 cents?

I remember 15 cent calls. And rotary payphones. This was before the invention of reality television, mind you...

 

[gujuDoc]

They do this because MCAT/GPA are not the only thing they care about. MCAT/GPA cutoffs exists for a few reasons:

1) For OOS applicants, they only want the best of the best, otherwise they'll pick someone in-state whose more likely to stay in that state later on in life.
2) For most schools, they want people who can pass through the rigors of medical school. Unfortunately, the only way you can show that is from MCAT/GPA
3) It's the easiest and most cost-effective way to reduce thousands of applications to hundreds where it becomes a bit more managable to invite people to interviews and truly discover what applicants are like.

Secondary appications give schools a way to ask a specific set of questions they feel best weed out applicants based on a school's mission statement. Sure, stellar stats usually bypass this check anyway, but for those who don't, a secondary is a good way to show that you are committed to THEIR school, especially when people often apply to 15-30 schools on average. They don't want people who are excited to go to med school, they want people who are excited to go to THEIR med school.

And it's just that these essays can't be on AMCAS. The fee is to prevent people from randomly send applications to their school since there's no "loss".

This is a very good post. But the real reasons they charge the fees are because they have to support their interview session dates and what not. The food and drinks and other small things here and there like bus rides to the hospital if it is far away or things of that nature all cost money. The secondary fees are where much of this money comes from.

This is what LizzyM explained last year in slightly different words.

The real question is what is the purpose of charging 30 dollars per school at AMCAS if the money doesn't go to the school? Why can't applications just be independent applications to schools and even if they want a centralized application why do some schools essentially waste your time by having you repeat the same info that is all over amcas i.e. grades and transcript info, relisting your activities, etc. etc.

 

[gujuDoc]

I think there are two different types of schools on this issue. There are the ones that Lizzy is describing. These schools, which may be reaches for you, still review your application multiple times by multiple people, seeing if there is something in your secondaries that can boost what your app may lack in GPA, MCAT, or ECs. I have no problem with these schools.

There are also schools that realistically must have already decided on you, as your rejection comes back a day or two after receipt of your secondary. I've had a couple of med schools like that. Bad business.

Off topic but...

Is your UCDavis acceptance recent??? CONGRATULATIONS!!!! I see the top of your profile says adios like you weren't expecting any cali acceptances, so Congrats. That must be really exciting for you since you can stay in your home state. Good luck next year.

And back on topic, yeah its bad business in the name of wanting money to fund interview sessions.

 

[gujuDoc]

That only works if you have a balanced GPA and MCAT, and can make comparisons with the MSAR listings of GPA/MCAT. All the other aspects that you mention (thanks for listing them, they'll be a great help for people who are applying to think about!) are hidden from view. All we have to go on is GPA/MCAT, our state schools, and what our advisers/professors/friends (which is pretty low quality) say. If you are one of those students with a convoluted GPA and high MCAT (or unbalanced MCAT and stellar GPA), the MSAR doesn't give you much information, and you end up "scattershooting" with some homework done (which may or may not have been effective).

I wish the secondary process was truly a secondary application in that the school took the time to actually look at the AMCAS application (not just the numbers, which they rarely look anyways as many don't screen secondaries). There is plenty of information there, or maybe schools should lobby the AMCAS to include LORs as part of the process (like pharmacy does) so you could get all this info to make your secondary decision. You could do all the above screening you mention and reduce the number of secondaries you'd need to process (including all those extra essays), and thus the expense of the students (though you'd reduce your own incoming funds) and still interview those exceptional students who didn't fit the cutoff-values.

Yeah I think this is a good idea. It seems senseless that some schools ask you to directly repeat things that are already on AMCAS.

 

[sirus_virus]

when they will blatantly let people through their screens and give them secondaries to fill out when they know they have no chance at all at being accepted into the school? Is it really ethical for medical schools to accept secondary fee money from 100s and 1000s of students that they know will have no shot at gaining entrance since their MCAT and GPA are not good enough?


the people hurt the most are the students who are lower middle class who "make too much money" to not qualify for fee assistance, but whose families are barely making ends meet. having to spend $3000 on app. fees to 10-20 schools is simply crushing to these students and their families. why are med schools able to get away with basically robbing these student out of $100 for the secondary if they know they aren't going to get in?

The same way they get away with robbing medstudents of ~150k over 4 years. It's a seller's market, and they are selling like crazy. Step back a bit and take a look at all the stuff going on with medschool, then tell me you don't see some striking similarities with used car sales.

 

[LizzyM]

I wonder why some schools have applicants repeat things that are on the AMCAS. One possible reason may be that the powers that be want to provide the adcom application readers with a "limited data set". If you want applications read without regard to race, ethnicity, family background, disadvantage status, place of birth, age, then giving the reader only the secondary would make it possible to do that quite easily. Another possibility is that some are so set in stone that they never changed after going over to the AMCAS common application.

 

[trichomoniasis]

and what's with this whole "water runs downhill" thing. Seriously, can someone do something about that?

 

[Law2Doc]

when they will blatantly let people through their screens and give them secondaries to fill out when they know they have no chance at all at being accepted into the school? Is it really ethical for medical schools to accept secondary fee money from 100s and 1000s of students that they know will have no shot at gaining entrance since their MCAT and GPA are not good enough?


the people hurt the most are the students who are lower middle class who "make too much money" to not qualify for fee assistance, but whose families are barely making ends meet. having to spend $3000 on app. fees to 10-20 schools is simply crushing to these students and their families. why are med schools able to get away with basically robbing these student out of $100 for the secondary if they know they aren't going to get in?

Actually, most med schools barely teach ethics. A couple of discussions squeezed in here or there, discussing patient autonomy and end of life issues. Thus they can take your money without being hypocritical.

It's like gambling -- nobody stops you from betting on the longshot even though you are basically throwing your money away. If you are med school worthy you are supposed to be smarter than that. Caveat emptor.

 

[TheRealMD]

Yes but to get the same amount as 8000 secondaries all priced at 100 dollars, they would have to increase tuition of 600 students by over 1300.

Few schools even have 8000 applications, let alone give out 8000 secondaries. I think it's more reasonable that schools give out 2000-3000 secondaries, but that's really only for the more competitive schools.

However, for schools that show no discrimination towards applicants and secondary fees, your argument falls apart. I really doubt adcoms are cherry-picking applications that they know won't get in but send secondaries/invite for an interview anyway. They just don't have that kind of time.

 

[LizzyM]

Actually, most med schools barely teach ethics. A couple of discussions squeezed in here or there, discussing patient autonomy and end of life issues. Thus they can take your money without being hypocritical.

It's like gambling -- nobody stops you from betting on the longshot even though you are basically throwing your money away. If you are med school worthy you are supposed to be smarter than that. Caveat emptor.

Just as the lottery is a tax on people who are bad at math; med school applications can be a tax on the overly optimisitic.

 

[novawildcat]

Actually, most med schools barely teach ethics. A couple of discussions squeezed in here or there, discussing patient autonomy and end of life issues. Thus they can take your money without being hypocritical.

It's like gambling -- nobody stops you from betting on the longshot even though you are basically throwing your money away. If you are med school worthy you are supposed to be smarter than that. Caveat emptor.

But we aren't talking about gambling here. An applicant with a 3.6 and 30 MCAT fits the profile for average matriculant to 80% of schools. An applicant like this will fill out 10-20 secondaries get rejected by 60-70% of them without the offer of even an interview. That doesn't seem right to me that schools will take an applicant's money like this and know already ahead of time that they won't even be offered a chance at an interview.


I like lifetimedoc's suggestion-- mandate LOR etc. for the AMCAS portion, that way schools can weed out who actually has a chance and that school and will be offered an interview and send them secondaries. All the info the schools want could come from AMCAS. The secondaries could consist of questions like " why do you want to come to this medical school?" and other miscellaneous questions instead of the same questions already on AMCAS. If schools got 90% of the info on a student from AMCAS they could greatly reduce the amount of secondaries that are sent out as well as the number they would need to interview. Students would save $$$ at the same time by not having to fill out 10-20 secondaries.


The average American makes what about $38K before taxes? After tax that leaves about $27K of disposable income (we are even ignoring stuff like car payments/rent/mortgage/etc.) Having to spend $2-3 grand on just applications is almost 10-20% of these people's yearly incomes!

I don't buy the argument that schools need that much money from secondary fees to stay afloat. Places like Harvard, Yale, and tons of state schools are filthy rich with BILLIONS of dollars in endowments and support from tax payer dollars from the state (granted not all medical schools are) but still send out 1000s of secondaries to people that have no chance of getting in. Tons of other medical schools in different countries are free to go to and also produce some of the finest physicians in the world and charge little to no tuition for their students while schools here in the US charge a quarter mil. The process can be fixed so it isn't so expensive for students.

 

[LizzyM]

Many schools get 20 applications for every seat. There are twice as many applicants nation-wide as there are slots. The schools can do as they please. If anything, they hope that a $100 application fee will weed out the people who aren't really interested.

And yes, that money goes into the university's purse. From that same purse, the school pays for the operation of the admissions office including the physical space and its furnishings, phone/fax/computers, equipment and supplies used for with printing, handling and storing applications (some are managed with bar codes that track where an application has been), staff wages & benefits, costs associated with recruiting visits and promotional materials, interview day costs (a small proportion of the overall cost of running the office). Tuition never covers the cost of instruction (investments, donations, etc make up the difference). Application fees are an other revenue stream to help schools stay "in the black".

Many schools interview only 10-15% of the applicants who apply. So, if you are not being interviewed by 60-70% of those to which you apply, then you are being interviewed by 30-40% which is far better than what you might expect if the school chose applications at random.

 

[Law2Doc]

But we aren't talking about gambling here. An applicant with a 3.6 and 30 MCAT fits the profile for average matriculant to 80% of schools. An applicant like this will fill out 10-20 secondaries get rejected by 60-70% of them without the offer of even an interview. That doesn't seem right to me that schools will take an applicant's money like this and know already ahead of time that they won't even be offered a chance at an interview.

Well, you have to remember that this isn't wholly an objective process. You can have a 3.6/30 and not be med school worthy. It's not all a numbers game -- schools are looking for diverse and well rounded people who have interesting experiences, interview well, have compelling essays, cool ECs, and also have the numbers. Putting too much weight and optimism on your chances based solely on the numbers is looking one dimensionally at a three dimensional process.

There are folks with decent credentials who apply smarter and have a much greater yield of interviews to secondaries. There are also many folks who apply to Harvard/Hopkins just on a lark/pipedream, and folks who apply to schools like, say, BU because the secondary doesn't have any essays (which is why schools like this get a bizarre number of applications). So nothing wrong with schools charging you for playing this lottery.

 

[EyeballLove]

It also exists in the desolate wastes of MORDOR

I like!

 

[smeagol]

MORDOR

Rearrange the letters in Mordor and you can get:

M.D.OOR

Door to M.D. ??? Spooky.

 

[novawildcat]

Well, you have to remember that this isn't wholly an objective process. You can have a 3.6/30 and not be med school worthy. It's not all a numbers game -- schools are looking for diverse and well rounded people who have interesting experiences, interview well, have compelling essays, cool ECs, and also have the numbers. Putting too much weight and optimism on your chances based solely on the numbers is looking one dimensionally at a three dimensional process.

I know it is more than just gpa/mcat. When you submit AMCAS schools get your gpa, mcat, EC, and PS, the only thing missing is the LOR. Why not include LOR with AMCAS? GPA+MCAT+PS+EC+LOR give a pretty good picture of a candide. All schools would have to do then is filter out the candidates that they are MOST interested in and send them secondaries, interview them, then make a decision. Students save $$$ on secondaries and schools would have to send out less secondaries. There is no need to take $100 from tons of students who have little or no chance for even an interview.

 

[TheRealMD]

I know it is more than just gpa/mcat. When you submit AMCAS schools get your gpa, mcat, EC, and PS, the only thing missing is the LOR. Why not include LOR with AMCAS? GPA+MCAT+PS+EC+LOR give a pretty good picture of a candide. All schools would have to do then is filter out the candidates that they are MOST interested in and send them secondaries, interview them, then make a decision. Students save $$$ on secondaries and schools would have to send out less secondaries. There is no need to take $100 from tons of students who have little or no chance for even an interview.

Because a LOR doesn't give that much more insight to an applicant because you expect them all to be glowing reviews of an applicant.

 

[Law2Doc]

I know it is more than just gpa/mcat. When you submit AMCAS schools get your gpa, mcat, EC, and PS, the only thing missing is the LOR. Why not include LOR with AMCAS? GPA+MCAT+PS+EC+LOR give a pretty good picture of a candide. All schools would have to do then is filter out the candidates that they are MOST interested in and send them secondaries, interview them, then make a decision. Students save $$$ on secondaries and schools would have to send out less secondaries. There is no need to take $100 from tons of students who have little or no chance for even an interview.

If schools had to read all that before even sending out secondaries, you would probably not get secondaries from schools until late winter at best, pushing interviews and admissions decisions back a few months. Letting applicants have secondaries in before schools do their big pre-interview reviews streamlines the process. The process is long and drawn out enough as is. Those many months of waiting are worth big money to a lot of applicants, I suspect.

 

[Law2Doc]

Because a LOR doesn't give that much more insight to an applicant because you expect them all to be glowing reviews of an applicant.

Also agree with this -- LORs are largely used for schools as reasons to reject if they are bad, but if they are good it really just keeps you in the pile of the thousands of others who also had good ones.

 

[87138]

Quick (and maybe stupid) question: what's the story on interview fees? Do all schools have this? And if so, what's the average cost?