How can people afford to go into residency?

[Franklo]

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Simple enough question. I'm looking into sending out externship apps for OMFS and even that scares the hell out of me even though we get PAID to do this. How the heck can people go through ortho and tack on to that dental school debt?? I am seriously considering just throwing all the work I've done for OMFS out the window seeing how much my debt would tack on through residency. And god forbid I go into a 6 year program that's another like 80k of debt for medical school. One of the directors I spoke to told me that residents defer their debt repayment but you're still accruing interest on that aren't you?

Can any OMFS residents (or any residents) speak to their decisions to going into residency rather then going into GP?

 

[cacajuate]

I'd wager a bet and say they feel the income level of specialty will trump the additional debt.


I'd spend $50-100K extra for an additional $200k a year. You have to risk it to get the biscuit brother.


edit: for damn sure would spend $80k more for OMFS salary ($413k/yr average!!!!! according to ADA)

 

[Cello]

OMFS guys are not only making a tremendous salary, they also have access to ancillary income if they buy into a group practice and this can add tens or hundreds of thousands of dollars of passive income to their yearly gross. Buy into a surgical center and you will be doing quite well.

 

[Franklo]

I sincerely doubt the "average incomes" posted. I would consider myself lucky to push 200k after graduation. Those values sound more like someone owning a practice. As someone graduating with debt wouldn't it take me years to pay off?
I mean honestly wouldn't a GP be able to pay off their school debts and buy a practice after the 4-6 years an omfs is in residency? Is this something that I could bring up during interviews or would that be taboo? I'm not worried about the income in reality just the ability to pay off debt. Don't want to be in my 40's paying off D school + med school debt 🙁

 

[CanaDMD]

I sincerely doubt the "average incomes" posted. I would consider myself lucky to push 200k after graduation. Those values sound more like someone owning a practice. As someone graduating with debt wouldn't it take me years to pay off?
I mean honestly wouldn't a GP be able to pay off their school debts and buy a practice after the 4-6 years an omfs is in residency? Is this something that I could bring up during interviews or would that be taboo? I'm not worried about the income in reality just the ability to pay off debt. Don't want to be in my 40's paying off D school + med school debt 🙁

Residency isn't for students who want to pay off debt. You're thinking of corporate dental jobs. 😉

 

[Cello]

I sincerely doubt the "average incomes" posted. I would consider myself lucky to push 200k after graduation. Those values sound more like someone owning a practice. As someone graduating with debt wouldn't it take me years to pay off?
I mean honestly wouldn't a GP be able to pay off their school debts and buy a practice after the 4-6 years an omfs is in residency? Is this something that I could bring up during interviews or would that be taboo? I'm not worried about the income in reality just the ability to pay off debt. Don't want to be in my 40's paying off D school + med school debt 🙁

OMFS = surgeons
They may go the 4 year surgical residency (same as any medical surgical residency) or the 6 year route which requires 2 years of medical school (3rd and 4th).
OMFS docs start with very high salaries, but oral surgery is an entirely different beast from traditional dentistry. Their starting salaries may be $250k to $300k, and only a few years out they could very well be making $400k to $500k. Even more than that is certainly possible if you find the right opportunity and put the time in. Incomes that high certainly justify the high cost of specializing. It is important to note though that OMFS residents, like medical residents, are paid a nominal salary (~$50k) during their residency and the residency itself costs nothing. It would be exceptionally difficult for a general dentist to earn what an OMFS does - maybe if they had $1,000,000+ in gross collections with < 60% overhead and 99% collection rate - but it is possible.

 

[personalstatementsbyeric]

What about ortho/endo?

 

[wengerout]

What about ortho/endo?

Also wondering this


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

 

[Cold Front]

What about ortho/endo?

A friend of mine got into an endo program this year. He will take $250k loans (plus interest) for the 2 years, which also covers his cost of living.

He was a GP for 5 years before he got in, making $250k a year. So he will lose $500k income potential while he is in residency. So a total of $750k set-back in his career to become an endodontist. In the long run, he will make more money, but he will carry the additional debt for a while.

 

[Cello]

A friend of mine got into an endo program this year. He will take $250k loans (plus interest) for the 2 years, which also covers his cost of living.

He was a GP for 5 years before he got in, making $250k a year. So he will lose $500k income potential while he is in residency. So a total of $750k set-back in his career to become an endodontist. In the long run, he will make more money, but he will carry the additional debt for a while.

I heard that more endo guys are getting involved with implants because GPs are keeping more endo inhouse? Do you know anything about that? Has your friend mentioned that at all?

 

[KillaCam]

If finances accrued is your primary factor or worry about doing OMFS, you shouldn't do it. Doing gp vs OMFS are day and night apart, and although you get yourself in more debt I couldn't ever imagine doing GP. This is just me personally. Don't look at finances, do what makes you happy and what you enjoy more. Period. The happier you are, the more you enjoy what you do, the more successful you'll be. You'll be fine financially whatever you choose in the long run.

 

[Theillestill]

What about ortho/endo?

Worked as a general dentist for 3-years prior to starting. Unpaid residency + moonlighting + loans. Most of the others have either spouses/partners that contribute.

The key is ensuring that you don't have significant debt from your undergrad/dental degree if you are interested in specialising. Can't imagine some of the newer graduates with 400k+ of debt considering specialising.

 

[Cold Front]

I heard that more endo guys are getting involved with implants because GPs are keeping more endo inhouse? Do you know anything about that? Has your friend mentioned that at all?

You can learn implants without doing any residency these days. More and more GPs are also doing endo these days than before, specially the younger folks who are much more aggressive than older generations. I do all my endo in house, about 3 cases a day on average. I use Wave-1 system, which keeps getting better by the year. One of my GP associates does implants, he has been taking a 12 months course to get better at it. So Endodontists are doing everything too to kee themselves busy, but I don't see future grads and GP dentists pursuing endo through $250k+ residencies in the future. They can just limit their practice to endo only. Yes the fees will be lower, but when you can store that endo tooth with build up and crown (withca a hygiene program), it's far shorter, productive and cheaper route than additional expensive training.

 

[wengerout]

Worked as a general dentist for 3-years prior to starting. Unpaid residency + moonlighting + loans. Most of the others have either spouses/partners that contribute.

The key is ensuring that you don't have significant from your undergrad/dental degree if you are interested in specialising. Can't imagine some of the newer graduates with 400k+ of debt considering specialising.

What about those at the Ivy schools who opt to specialize?


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[periopocket]

Get that GME funding, there is spots across all specialties! Look for VAs, almost all specialty spots are GME funded. In addition to this, many spots will offer stipends to at least offset tuition, leaving you only to pay living costs.

 

[Cello]

You can learn implants without doing any residency these days. More and more GPs are also doing endo these days than before, specially the younger folks who are much more aggressive than older generations. I do all my endo in house, about 3 cases a day on average. I use Wave-1 system, which keeps getting better by the year. One of my GP associates does implants, he has been taking a 12 months course to get better at it. So Endodontists are doing everything too to kee themselves busy, but I don't see future grads and GP dentists pursuing endo through $250k+ residencies in the future. They can just limit their practice to endo only. Yes the fees will be lower, but when you can store that endo tooth with build up and crown (withca a hygiene program), it's far shorter, productive and cheaper route than additional expensive training.

Yeah, this is what I have heard from others as well. Thanks for sharing your insight.

 

[cacajuate]

With all the new technologies allowing GP to perform more complex cases, is pursuing a specialty still worth it? I go back and forth between continuing to get A's or just spend all my time on hand skills and family and slack a bit on grades. Do yall still think it will be worth in 10-15 yrs down the road?

 

[Franklo]

For me OMFS has always been the specialty that could never die. Sure you can have GP's pulling teeth and placing implants, but when it comes to posterior or thirds it really doesn't make sense for them to do that. Furthermore the on call settings of working in a trauma center as an OMFS will never die. Don't get me wrong I realize it pays next to nothing to run those calls but there are very little people that can do the work that they do in an trauma center.

With all the new technologies allowing GP to perform more complex cases, is pursuing a specialty still worth it? I go back and forth between continuing to get A's or just spend all my time on hand skills and family and slack a bit on grades. Do yall still think it will be worth in 10-15 yrs down the road?

And there lies the million dollar question. What will happen in 10 years? 15? 20? 30? Who knows. And like everyone says this is why only those that really want to specialize should specialize. Don't do it for the money.

 

[BellaNella]

For me OMFS has always been the specialty that could never die. Sure you can have GP's pulling teeth and placing implants, but when it comes to posterior or thirds it really doesn't make sense for them to do that. Furthermore the on call settings of working in a trauma center as an OMFS will never die. Don't get me wrong I realize it pays next to nothing to run those calls but there are very little people that can do the work that they do in an trauma center.




And there lies the million dollar question. What will happen in 10 years? 15? 20? 30? Who knows. And like everyone says this is why only those that really want to specialize should specialize. Don't do it for the money.

I agree. It is not about if it is "worth it" in the end but is it worth it to YOU. We don't know what will happen in the future but extra CE courses or technology will not make you into a specialist. You will not have the experience or mindset that the extra training/education leads to.
Definitely not something to go into for the money. Follow your heart and passion. I would much rather make less money and be doing something I truly love than do something I was not passionate about for an extra buck.
Just my opinion.

 

[Theillestill]

What about those at the Ivy schools who opt to specialize?


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

$$$

 

[wengerout]

Get that GME funding, there is spots across all specialties! Look for VAs, almost all specialty spots are GME funded. In addition to this, many spots will offer stipends to at least offset tuition, leaving you only to pay living costs.

Even for Ortho? Where can I find more info about this?

 

[wengerout]

$$$

r.i.p

 

[periopocket]

Even for Ortho? Where can I find more info about this?

A friend in my class, top 5, from a lowly state school, just got a spot at Eastman 2-year orthodontics program with a 26,000 dollar stipend per year, medical insurance and life insurance.

Eastman institute for oral health has Orthodontics, Periodontics and Prosthodontics (another friend matched here) all with the ~$26,000 stipend.

Indy VA: has Periodontics 😉 and Endodontics with $55,000 stipends per year, medical and life insurance
Cali VA and Wisconsin VA have specialty programs with stipends as well.
* The list goes on, I only have limited knowledge about Ortho ones, as I didn't apply to ortho.

I've uploaded an ADA specialty report. You can find out all this information and more from the different charts.

 

[Cello]

A friend in my class, top 5, from a lowly state school, just got a spot at Eastman 2-year orthodontics program with a 26,000 dollar stipend per year, medical insurance and life insurance.

Eastman institute for oral health has Orthodontics, Periodontics and Prosthodontics (another friend matched here) all with the ~$26,000 stipend.

Indy VA: has Periodontics and Endodontics with $55,000 stipends per year, medical and life insurance
Cali VA and Wisconsin VA have specialty programs with stipends as well.
* The list goes on, I only have limited knowledge about Ortho ones, as I didn't apply to ortho.

I've uploaded an ADA specialty report. You can find out all this information and more from the different charts.

Quality post.

 

[wengerout]

A friend in my class, top 5, from a lowly state school, just got a spot at Eastman 2-year orthodontics program with a 26,000 dollar stipend per year, medical insurance and life insurance.

Eastman institute for oral health has Orthodontics, Periodontics and Prosthodontics (another friend matched here) all with the ~$26,000 stipend.

Indy VA: has Periodontics and Endodontics with $55,000 stipends per year, medical and life insurance
Cali VA and Wisconsin VA have specialty programs with stipends as well.
* The list goes on, I only have limited knowledge about Ortho ones, as I didn't apply to ortho.

I've uploaded an ADA specialty report. You can find out all this information and more from the different charts.

Thank you! Props to your friend, I am sure it wasn't easy to be top 5. I will do more research into this.

 

[Greyangel6]

I've uploaded an ADA specialty report. You can find out all this information and more from the different charts.

Very informative. Thank you for the good read!

Now I'm not sure what to do lol.

I'm a D2 at UF (so not Ivy league). I have the 4 year navy HPSP. I did inquire about navy endo, the program director told me that I'd have a better chance if I did AEGD I (~1yr), then the 4 year active duty (an operational tour or somewhere with the marines will definitely be impressive) then apply for their endo program (~2yrs), then serve more payback time (~2yrs I hope). I'm not sure if I want to be in the military that long (total of at least 9 years).

My plan originally was to do AEGD (to check off the box/build speed kind of thing), finish active duty, get discharged after 5 years in military, then apply to civilian endo (~2yrs). Totaling to about 7 years. But wow, I did not realize that it costs that much to pursue endo. Some programs cost about the same amount as my 4 year dental school cost of attendance (my COA for all 4 years ~270k).

Haha I guess there's a lot to think about, especially now that I know some programs give stipends. Any inputs?

 

[schmoob]

Very informative. Thank you for the good read!

Now I'm not sure what to do lol.

I'm a D2 at UF (so not Ivy league). I have the 4 year navy HPSP. I did inquire about navy endo, the program director told me that I'd have a better chance if I did AEGD I (~1yr), then the 4 year active duty (an operational tour or somewhere with the marines will definitely be impressive) then apply for their endo program (~2yrs), then serve more payback time (~2yrs I hope). I'm not sure if I want to be in the military that long (total of at least 9 years).

My plan originally was to do AEGD (to check off the box/build speed kind of thing), finish active duty, get discharged after 5 years in military, then apply to civilian endo (~2yrs). Totaling to about 7 years. But wow, I did not realize that it costs that much to pursue endo. Some programs cost about the same amount as my 4 year dental school cost of attendance (my COA for all 4 years ~270k).

Haha I guess there's a lot to think about, especially now that I know some programs give stipends. Any inputs?

Your endo payback to the Navy will be 3 years. It's 1.5 years for every year of training.

If you can get it, awesome! That's a sweet deal.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Very informative. Thank you for the good read!

Now I'm not sure what to do lol.

I'm a D2 at UF (so not Ivy league). I have the 4 year navy HPSP. I did inquire about navy endo, the program director told me that I'd have a better chance if I did AEGD I (~1yr), then the 4 year active duty (an operational tour or somewhere with the marines will definitely be impressive) then apply for their endo program (~2yrs), then serve more payback time (~2yrs I hope). I'm not sure if I want to be in the military that long (total of at least 9 years).

My plan originally was to do AEGD (to check off the box/build speed kind of thing), finish active duty, get discharged after 5 years in military, then apply to civilian endo (~2yrs). Totaling to about 7 years. But wow, I did not realize that it costs that much to pursue endo. Some programs cost about the same amount as my 4 year dental school cost of attendance (my COA for all 4 years ~270k).

Haha I guess there's a lot to think about, especially now that I know some programs give stipends. Any inputs?

You'll have the GI Bill available when you separate. If it's a state school, it'll cover all tuition and fees. If it's a private program, it's capped around $22,000 annually. You'll also get a living stipend based on E5 with dependents BAH.

Big Hoss

 

[schmoob]

You'll have the GI Bill available when you separate. If it's a state school, it'll cover all tuition and fees. If it's a private program, it's capped around $22,000 annually. You'll also get a living stipend based on E5 with dependents.

Big Hoss

Yes.
Also Yellow Ribbon if the school participates. This means the school reduces tuition for you by a certain amount, and the VA matches that amount in payments (this information is meant for other folks, I know you know this).
As well as $1000 annual book stipend.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Yes.
Also Yellow Ribbon if the school participates. This means the school reduces tuition for you by a certain amount, and the VA matches that amount in payments (this information is meant for other folks, I know you know this).
As well as $1000 annual book stipend.

Having the GI Bill on top of the HPSP really makes the HPSP such a sweet deal. And most don't even know it'll be available to them.

Big Hoss

 

[schmoob]

Having the GI Bill on top of the HPSP really makes the HPSP such a sweet deal. And most don't even know it'll be available to them.

Big Hoss

Yep, it's fantastic. For those that get out and are lucky enough to score a GME funded residency can still use the GI Bill to supplement their stipend.
For example: let's say you decide to separate and snag a funded program in NYC at a very conservative ~50K stipend (this is conservative for the area). Blah blah lets skip the whole "NYC is saturated/overrated/overpriced/too expensive" gripes that everyone on SDN talks about. The GI Bill is at ~4000 per month for 2017. So now you're looking at getting out of the military with (hopefully) a positive net worth, and getting paid $100K a year as a resident for a specialty that will only further increase your revenue

 

[LogOff]

So you're saying it's possible to do an OS residency for example and get paid the E5 BAH during that time through post 9/11 GI bill?

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

So you're saying it's possible to do an OS residency for example and get paid the E5 BAH during that time through post 9/11 GI bill?

Yes, but only for 36 months.

Big Hoss

 

[schmoob]

So you're saying it's possible to do an OS residency for example and get paid the E5 BAH during that time through post 9/11 GI bill?

Yep.
But if I were you, I would save it for medical school in case you go to a 6 year program. Since you get charged tuition those years, GI Bill offsets those costs, plus you get your MHA (BAH). This will reduce your student loans tremendously. Even more if it's a Yellow Ribbon school. If it is a public medical school, you're covered for tuition and fees. If it is private, the VA will pay ~$22K to the school, plus Yellow Ribbon, which the VA will match. For example:
$22K, plus the school contributes $4K to Yellow Ribbon. The VA matches the $4K. You just saved $30K on tuition for 2 years, so $60K. Plus, let's say the MHA rate is ~$1500 for the area; for ~24 months you get a total of about ~$36K. So in total, for the sake of simplicity, you just reduced taking out $100K in student loans. So you come out of the residency pretty much debt free.

If you're doing a 4 year program it doesn't matter. You'll just top off your residency stipend with MHA.

 

[deleted738762]

OMFS = surgeons
They may go the 4 year surgical residency (same as any medical surgical residency) or the 6 year route which requires 2 years of medical school (3rd and 4th).
OMFS docs start with very high salaries, but oral surgery is an entirely different beast from traditional dentistry. Their starting salaries may be $250k to $300k, and only a few years out they could very well be making $400k to $500k. Even more than that is certainly possible if you find the right opportunity and put the time in. Incomes that high certainly justify the high cost of specializing. It is important to note though that OMFS residents, like medical residents, are paid a nominal salary (~$50k) during their residency and the residency itself costs nothing. It would be exceptionally difficult for a general dentist to earn what an OMFS does - maybe if they had $1,000,000+ in gross collections with < 60% overhead and 99% collection rate - but it is possible.

Dude! How do you know all this?

 

[OMFRezDC]

Thanks for the response this is an excellent post. Now, when you say "right opportunity" what exactly do you mean? Signed, third year OMFS resident.

 

[ncide]

Dude! How do you know all this?

You work with them. You have friends who are specialists. You read up about the residency.

You should be informed of something if you want to go into it.

 

[schmoob]

You work with them. You have friends who are specialists. You read up about the residency.

You should be informed of something if you want to go into it.

Perfect answer.
When people get to dental school it's amazing how much their classmates know about dentistry. Its also amazing how little other classmates know.

 

[deleted738762]

Perfect answer.
When people get to dental school it's amazing how much their classmates know about dentistry. Its also amazing how little other classmates know.

I'll have to brush up on then. I think as a dental student I'll know more of course.

 

[Hannah Banana]

I've uploaded an ADA specialty report. You can find out all this information and more from the different charts.

This is art. Thank you!!!

 

[Cold Front]

OMFS = surgeons
They may go the 4 year surgical residency (same as any medical surgical residency) or the 6 year route which requires 2 years of medical school (3rd and 4th).
OMFS docs start with very high salaries, but oral surgery is an entirely different beast from traditional dentistry. Their starting salaries may be $250k to $300k, and only a few years out they could very well be making $400k to $500k. Even more than that is certainly possible if you find the right opportunity and put the time in. Incomes that high certainly justify the high cost of specializing. It is important to note though that OMFS residents, like medical residents, are paid a nominal salary (~$50k) during their residency and the residency itself costs nothing. It would be exceptionally difficult for a general dentist to earn what an OMFS does - maybe if they had $1,000,000+ in gross collections with < 60% overhead and 99% collection rate - but it is possible.

Top 1-5% of income earners in dentistry are mostly (if not all) GPs. All corporate dentistry were started by GPs (Heartland, Aspen, Comfort, Pacific, etc). Even the next level down, 90% of large group multi-practices are GPs. On average, specialists make more, because there are few of them compare to GPs, but GPs at the top make way more than the top 1% of specialists. It's simple economics, most dental services are performed by GPs.

If your goal is to make a "lot" of money, then GP path is the best route.

 

[Medin2017]

Top 1-5% of income earners in dentistry are mostly (if not all) GPs. All corporate dentistry were started by GPs (Heartland, Aspen, Comfort, Pacific, etc). Even the next level down, 90% of large group multi-practices are GPs. On average, specialists make more, because there are few of them compare to GPs, but GPs at the top make way more than the top 1% of specialists. It's simple economics, most dental services are performed by GPs.

If your goal is to make a "lot" of money, then GP path is the best route.

Having the rank or intelligence to become a specialist is no easy task, but to go into dental school thinking you'll be starting the next aspen, comfort, etc. seems very very silly. Not to mention top 25% of dentists that are OWNERS make "only" 260k. If we include nonowners, that should make that percentage even smaller. Also, saturation seems to be a much bigger deal for general dentists than a specialty like OMFS because there are many more general dentists graduating while OMFS residencies serve as bottlenecks to help mitigate that (similar to dermatology residencies reducing saturation in the med field). Finally, according to the ADA reports, the general dentist income is slowly on the decline while specialty income actually went up in recent years. It is a much higher probability (although still extremely difficult) to land OMFS, take your median of 390k or avg of 460k (which is double a general dentist owner in private practice) than to start a corporate dental business.

OP feel free to try to be the next aspen dental maker, but if you fail, you'll be doing much worse than an OMFS (by averages and medians, yada yada). And even if you're somehow skilled enough to be top 20% of general dentists out there, you'll still be doing worse than a median OMFS by 100k+.

You can refer to ADA reports or choose anecdotes from others. If you go by the latter, then feel free to ignore this entire post

 

[Cold Front]

Having the rank or intelligence to become a specialist is no easy task, but to go into dental school thinking you'll be starting the next aspen, comfort, etc. seems very very silly. Not to mention top 25% of dentists that are OWNERS make "only" 260k. If we include nonowners, that should make that percentage even smaller. Also, saturation seems to be a much bigger deal for general dentists than a specialty like OMFS because there are many more general dentists graduating while OMFS residencies serve as bottlenecks to help mitigate that (similar to dermatology residencies reducing saturation in the med field). Finally, according to the ADA reports, the general dentist income is slowly on the decline while specialty income actually went up in recent years. It is a much higher probability (although still extremely difficult) to land OMFS, take your median of 390k or avg of 460k (which is double a general dentist owner in private practice) than to start a corporate dental business.

OP feel free to try to be the next aspen dental maker, but if you fail, you'll be doing much worse than an OMFS (by averages and medians, yada yada). And even if you're somehow skilled enough to be top 20% of general dentists out there, you'll still be doing worse than a median OMFS by 100k+.

You can refer to ADA reports or choose anecdotes from others. If you go by the latter, then feel free to ignore this entire post

I know over 50 GPs and over 20 specialists, none of them bothered to participate in ADA survey. So, take any information ADA tries to push with a grain of salt, except their Education/School studies.

By the way, the "intelligence" to be book smart or become a specialist has a relative inverse relationship with being a financially successful. No book you picked up or exam result in dental school prepares you well in real world success.

 

[Medin2017]

I know over 50 GPs and over 20 specialists, none of them bothered to participate in ADA survey. So, take any information ADA tries to push with a grain of salt, except their Education/School studies.

By the way, the "intelligence" to be book smart or become a specialist has a relative inverse relationship with being a financially successful. No book you picked up or exam result in dental school prepares you well in real world success.

I mean the sample size of the ADA is pretty big (for general dentists anyway with 700+ responders). I think my other points still stood reasonably well (saturation issues hitting general harder, way less likelihood of outearning OMFS that is T&T based, etc.).

Your second point sounds made up. Idk how being intelligent booksmart-wise suddenly inhibits business sense or financial success (or why there would be an inverse relationship). Guess all those booksmart people graduating from harvard business school or people programming at google are gonna flop in the real world. And in the dental world, booksmarts got OMFS pulling 460k average income so I would say that's pretty financially successful too (unless you think the top 1% of American household income is not successful lol). If OP is booksmart, he probably would have taken a few stats classes and realized he is likely not going to create the next aspen- but if he believes he can, I think he should pursue acting and be the next Leonardo dicaprio first.

Lastly, every predent/dental student thinks they're business savvy. You don't know until you're out there what kind of businessperson you are. You can read up on business advice from dentaltown, work on interpersonal skills, etc. but until you practice, it's all speculation. Plus if you're business savvy as a specialist, that's just even more icing on the cake. A business savvy orthodontist (like charlestweed for example) would beat out most business savvy general dentists- and even on the dentaltown income thread for general dentists, incomes usually didn't reach OMFS.

Cold front, I'll agree with you that if you want to be pulling like 3 million+ per year, odds are probably higher doing general dentistry than specializing (seeing as making that much mullah almost requires you to be creating some large corporation or owning a bunch of practices). But if you're ok with 500k+ (which is >99% of American's HOUSEHOLD income), doing OMFS is a much more surefire way than becoming a general dentist. And you are at a much lower risk too (an unsuccessful general dentist will be be making way less than an unsuccessful OMFS if we go by bottom 25%s).

 

[786783]

I mean the sample size of the ADA is pretty big (for general dentists anyway with 700+ responders). I think my other points still stood reasonably well (saturation issues hitting general harder, way less likelihood of outearning OMFS that is T&T based, etc.).

Your second point sounds made up. Idk how being intelligent booksmart-wise suddenly inhibits business sense or financial success (or why there would be an inverse relationship). Guess all those booksmart people graduating from harvard business school or people programming at google are gonna flop in the real world. And in the dental world, booksmarts got OMFS pulling 460k average income so I would say that's pretty financially successful too (unless you think the top 1% of American household income is not successful lol). If OP is booksmart, he probably would have taken a few stats classes and realized he is likely not going to create the next aspen- but if he believes he can, I think he should pursue acting and be the next Leonardo dicaprio first.

Lastly, every predent/dental student thinks they're business savvy. You don't know until you're out there what kind of businessperson you are. You can read up on business advice from dentaltown, work on interpersonal skills, etc. but until you practice, it's all speculation. Plus if you're business savvy as a specialist, that's just even more icing on the cake. A business savvy orthodontist (like charlestweed for example) would beat out most business savvy general dentists- and even on the dentaltown income thread for general dentists, incomes usually didn't reach OMFS.

Cold front, I'll agree with you that if you want to be pulling like 3 million+ per year, odds are probably higher doing general dentistry than specializing (seeing as making that much mullah almost requires you to be creating some large corporation or owning a bunch of practices). But if you're ok with 500k+ (which is >99% of American's HOUSEHOLD income), doing OMFS is a much more surefire way than becoming a general dentist. And you are at a much lower risk too (an unsuccessful general dentist will be be making way less than an unsuccessful OMFS if we go by bottom 25%s).

What stops a specialist from being a multi-practice owner like general dentists?

 

[schmoob]

WHAT IS SDN'S OBSESSION WITH OMFS???? WOW.
What they can do is nothing short of remarkable, and I have the utmost respect for their resilience, their clinical abilities,and their intelligence.

But if it's money that's important, why go through all that training? The most financially successful OMS's are not doing big hospital cases anymore, they are in PP shucking 3rds and placing implants. They have a higher ROI doing those procedures, plus a better quality of life due to the reduced stress. Less work=more money; a good financial move.

There is lots of money to be made in dentistry, as a GP or specialist. But if you think that becoming a specialist is the only way to break $200K-$300K, you are dead wrong. And if you want to make the most money, what's the point of spending all those years in residency and med school learning how to rebuild faces if all you are going to end up doing is pulling 3rds anyway? Doesn't sound like the best move. Take a look at the Navy, they train their own OMFS's, but they aren't the ones who will be taking out 3rds. They have a 1 year training pipeline in exodontia to teach GP's to do that. This way the OMFS's can actually do what they are trained to do.

If money is most important, become a GP. Learn implants because as the GP, you will be placing AND restoring them. Learn aesthetics because it is a cash service. Jump on to the Sleep Dentistry train. Get Botox certified. And, you can do all of this WHILE working and already making money.
If you want to do OS because you ACTUALLY want to do it, then go for it. But don't be one of those people who choose to specialize to satisfy their own egos.

Also, as already stated, take the ADA's statistics with a grain of salt. There is lots of bias in those reports. Also, there is ONE researcher in charge of everything. Vujicic runs things the way he wants to, and his articles reflect that. I would NEVER take ADA research as fact.

 

[Franklo]

WHAT IS SDN'S OBSESSION WITH OMFS???? WOW.
What they can do is nothing short of remarkable, and I have the utmost respect for their resilience, their clinical abilities,and their intelligence.

But if it's money that's important, why go through all that training? The most financially successful OMS's are not doing big hospital cases anymore, they are in PP shucking 3rds and placing implants. They have a higher ROI doing those procedures, plus a better quality of life due to the reduced stress. Less work=more money; a good financial move.

There is lots of money to be made in dentistry, as a GP or specialist. But if you think that becoming a specialist is the only way to break $200K-$300K, you are dead wrong. And if you want to make the most money, what's the point of spending all those years in residency and med school learning how to rebuild faces if all you are going to end up doing is pulling 3rds anyway? Doesn't sound like the best move. Take a look at the Navy, they train their own OMFS's, but they aren't the ones who will be taking out 3rds. They have a 1 year training pipeline in exodontia to teach GP's to do that. This way the OMFS's can actually do what they are trained to do.

If money is most important, become a GP. Learn implants because as the GP, you will be placing AND restoring them. Learn aesthetics because it is a cash service. Jump on to the Sleep Dentistry train. Get Botox certified. And, you can do all of this WHILE working and already making money.
If you want to do OS because you ACTUALLY want to do it, then go for it. But don't be one of those people who choose to specialize to satisfy their own egos.

Also, as already stated, take the ADA's statistics with a grain of salt. There is lots of bias in those reports. Also, there is ONE researcher in charge of everything. Vujicic runs things the way he wants to, and his articles reflect that. I would NEVER take ADA research as fact.

Where did I even state that I wanted to make big money 😕
My question was how people could afford to go into residency. Most dental students don't understand what it means to have COMPOUNDING INTEREST. My concern isn't about making money but more so paying off the **** ton of debt I will have if I do decide to pursue this. When I reach the point where my life is worth more with a bullet in the head and cashing out on the life insurance I kind of start wondering what I'm doing with myself...

To everyone else thank you for your answers. I'll keep mixing this around in my head till I come up with a decision haha.

 

[schmoob]

Where did I even state that I wanted to make big money 😕
My question was how people could afford to go into residency. Most dental students don't understand what it means to have COMPOUNDING INTEREST. My concern isn't about making money but more so paying off the **** ton of debt I will have if I do decide to pursue this. When I reach the point where my life is worth more with a bullet in the head and cashing out on the life insurance I kind of start wondering what I'm doing with myself...

To everyone else thank you for your answers. I'll keep mixing this around in my head till I come up with a decision haha.

It wasn't addressed to you specifically.

 

[cacajuate]

I mean the sample size of the ADA is pretty big (for general dentists anyway with 700+ responders). I think my other points still stood reasonably well (saturation issues hitting general harder, way less likelihood of outearning OMFS that is T&T based, etc.).

That's what you call a large sample size?

 

[Medin2017]

That's what you call a large sample size?

In statistics iirc it doesn't have to be millions to be representative. Like if it's a simple random sample with a decent representation of areas, even 50 can be enough. Idk how adamant does it, but 700+ definitely seems kinda reasonable. Then again I forgot most of stats lol just remember n=30 or more was usually considered ok