How can people afford to go into residency?

[wengerout]

WHAT IS SDN'S OBSESSION WITH OMFS???? WOW.
What they can do is nothing short of remarkable, and I have the utmost respect for their resilience, their clinical abilities,and their intelligence.

But if it's money that's important, why go through all that training? The most financially successful OMS's are not doing big hospital cases anymore, they are in PP shucking 3rds and placing implants. They have a higher ROI doing those procedures, plus a better quality of life due to the reduced stress. Less work=more money; a good financial move.

There is lots of money to be made in dentistry, as a GP or specialist. But if you think that becoming a specialist is the only way to break $200K-$300K, you are dead wrong. And if you want to make the most money, what's the point of spending all those years in residency and med school learning how to rebuild faces if all you are going to end up doing is pulling 3rds anyway? Doesn't sound like the best move. Take a look at the Navy, they train their own OMFS's, but they aren't the ones who will be taking out 3rds. They have a 1 year training pipeline in exodontia to teach GP's to do that. This way the OMFS's can actually do what they are trained to do.

If money is most important, become a GP. Learn implants because as the GP, you will be placing AND restoring them. Learn aesthetics because it is a cash service. Jump on to the Sleep Dentistry train. Get Botox certified. And, you can do all of this WHILE working and already making money.
If you want to do OS because you ACTUALLY want to do it, then go for it. But don't be one of those people who choose to specialize to satisfy their own egos.

Also, as already stated, take the ADA's statistics with a grain of salt. There is lots of bias in those reports. Also, there is ONE researcher in charge of everything. Vujicic runs things the way he wants to, and his articles reflect that. I would NEVER take ADA research as fact.

I have a question about this. If most PP OMFS make their money pulling 3rds and placing implants, what is stoping dentist from learning how to do these two procedures and doing it themselves? I know for a fact my GP never referred for any implants, and I have heard of others who took CE to be able to pull 3rds (some with GA, some only trained to do it under Local).

While the ADA statistics are not exactly reliable, if we use them why wouldn't a GP focus on these two procedures to get closer to an OMFS salary?

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[wengerout]

Top 1-5% of income earners in dentistry are mostly (if not all) GPs. All corporate dentistry were started by GPs (Heartland, Aspen, Comfort, Pacific, etc). Even the next level down, 90% of large group multi-practices are GPs. On average, specialists make more, because there are few of them compare to GPs, but GPs at the top make way more than the top 1% of specialists. It's simple economics, most dental services are performed by GPs.

If your goal is to make a "lot" of money, then GP path is the best route.

I suppose the question is for every successful dentist who created a large group multi-practice how many got themselves to even more debt trying?

 

[allantois]

I have a question about this. If most PP OMFS make their money pulling 3rds and placing implants, what is stoping dentist from learning how to do these two procedures and doing it themselves? I know for a fact my GP never referred for any implants, and I have heard of others who took CE to be able to pull 3rds (some with GA, some only trained to do it under Local).

While the ADA statistics are not exactly reliable, if we use them why wouldn't a GP focus on these two procedures to get closer to an OMFS salary?

General dentists are not going to refer to another general dentist to pull 3rd molars.

 

[Medin2017]

I have a question about this. If most PP OMFS make their money pulling 3rds and placing implants, what is stoping dentist from learning how to do these two procedures and doing it themselves? I know for a fact my GP never referred for any implants, and I have heard of others who took CE to be able to pull 3rds (some with GA, some only trained to do it under Local).

While the ADA statistics are not exactly reliable, if we use them why wouldn't a GP focus on these two procedures to get closer to an OMFS salary?

An OMFS I spoke to said firstly, you increase the price per procedure because people are willing to pay for an actual specialists if I recall correctly. He also mentioned that OMFS take home a larger percent than general dentists, saying that general dentists usually take 30-35% of collections while OMFS are more like 40-50. They are generally faster since so they can do more procedures in a similar amount of time. Also, a T&T based omfs will mainly be doing that while general dentists still have to do the lower paying procedures in between. They can also get referrals whereas a general dentist won't (like allantois said). Also your GP may not have referred implants, but if you look around dentaltown or sdn, there are many who say they don't bother with extractions or implants, or more difficult cases. Not every dentist is a super dentist who does everything.

In regard to the whole ego and doing OMFS just to make money and all that, it's not always black and white. Many OMFS here spend a day or 2 per week doing the fun stuff at the hospital and still make good income doing the T&T stuff the other days. Seems like a pretty good deal.

 

[Medin2017]

I suppose the question is for every successful dentist who created a large group multi-practice how many got themselves to even more debt trying?

Yep this is important. I've read posts of people trying to increase the amount of offices they have but don't have the patient pool for each and end up losing in the long run or spreading themselves thin and having more stress overall. By procedures alone, a general dentist won't beat a specialist most of the time- they have to be really good with business.

 

[cacajuate]

In statistics iirc it doesn't have to be millions to be representative. Like if it's a simple random sample with a decent representation of areas, even 50 can be enough. Idk how adamant does it, but 700+ definitely seems kinda reasonable. Then again I forgot most of stats lol just remember n=30 or more was usually considered ok

I'll help you remember statistics, 700 dentists is not a big enough sample. Seeing as though there are 3000+ new dentists graduating each year.

 

[Medin2017]

I'll help you remember statistics, 700 dentists is not a big enough sample. Seeing as though there are 3000+ new dentists graduating each year.

So you're saying if 700 dentists are reasonably distributed across many states, it wouldn't be representative? Idk what agenda the ada would be trying to push, but I wouldn't assume they're down playing incomes as normal bls surveys and such already do that for them. Also seeing as a majority of those 3k+ dentists graduating a year are making like 100-140k at an associate position. Saturation will only lower the numbers.

But like I said if we don't use the ada thing our data will come from what we read online or talking to dentists each with their own smaller sample size than ada and it's all up to speculation.

 

[Cold Front]

I suppose the question is for every successful dentist who created a large group multi-practice how many got themselves to even more debt trying?

On the other side of the coin, how many GPs and specialists open their own offices and decide to sell or close within few years? Because they realized they don't like running an office. Ofcourse for every dentist who tries to make money good income, or open multiple offices, few or more will not. It's all relative.

Your username... Wenger Out! You must be an arsenal fan.

 

[Cold Front]

So you're saying if 700 dentists are reasonably distributed across many states, it wouldn't be representative? Idk what agenda the ada would be trying to push, but I wouldn't assume they're down playing incomes as normal bls surveys and such already do that for them. Also seeing as a majority of those 3k+ dentists graduating a year are making like 100-140k at an associate position. Saturation will only lower the numbers.

But like I said if we don't use the ada thing our data will come from what we read online or talking to dentists each with their own smaller sample size than ada and it's all up to speculation.

ADA is the political arm of dentistry. They skew data like any political group to support their agenda. Don't buy into their publications without knowing their agendas. They are not like Gallop or other major statistics independent agencies. It's like watching Fox News or MSNBC and saying anything those news outlets say is correct.

 

[Medin2017]

ADA is the political arm of dentistry. They skew data like any political group to support their agenda. Don't buy into their publications without knowing their agendas. They are not like Gallop or other major statistics independent agencies. It's like watching Fox News or MSNBC and saying anything those news outlets say is correct.

Ok cool was unaware. From what I saw on the ADA website, they seem to try to go against midlevel providers or lack of reimbursement from insurance agencies, so thought they were "good guys". Apart from ADA though, dentaltown always seems to give a pretty gloomy outlook as well- many people said they wouldn't even do dentistry again with new high rate of debts, while others said they wish they specialized or had the grades to. One resident of a GPR (or AEGD forgot which) said he would encourage residents and others to specialize too. Finally, from some dentists I shadowed, 1 was studying on the side trying to get into ortho and the other wished they had a med specialty or increased income. I won't be having debt luckily, but the outlook still just seems kind of grim.

 

[Big Time Hoosier]

Most dental students don't understand what it means to have COMPOUNDING INTEREST.

Ignorance is bliss.

Big Hoss

 

[wengerout]

On the other side of the coin, how many GPs and specialists open their own offices and decide to sell or close within few years? Because they realized they don't like running an office. Ofcourse for every dentist who tries to make money good income, or open multiple offices, few or more will not. It's all relative.

Your username... Wenger Out! You must be an arsenal fan.

Sadly I am indeed an Arsenal fan


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[wengerout]

An OMFS I spoke to said firstly, you increase the price per procedure because people are willing to pay for an actual specialists if I recall correctly. He also mentioned that OMFS take home a larger percent than general dentists, saying that general dentists usually take 30-35% of collections while OMFS are more like 40-50. They are generally faster since so they can do more procedures in a similar amount of time. Also, a T&T based omfs will mainly be doing that while general dentists still have to do the lower paying procedures in between. They can also get referrals whereas a general dentist won't (like allantois said). Also your GP may not have referred implants, but if you look around dentaltown or sdn, there are many who say they don't bother with extractions or implants, or more difficult cases. Not every dentist is a super dentist who does everything.

In regard to the whole ego and doing OMFS just to make money and all that, it's not always black and white. Many OMFS here spend a day or 2 per week doing the fun stuff at the hospital and still make good income doing the T&T stuff the other days. Seems like a pretty good deal.

Interesting, so what's stopping a dentist from exclusively doing extractions and implants? Lack of referrals?

You're right that not every dentist desires to become a super GP but if income is one of your concerns I imagine it would be more beneficial for the GP in this case to expand the amount of procedures they perform and keep more things in-house.


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[Medin2017]

Interesting, so what's stopping a dentist from exclusively doing extractions and implants? Lack of referrals?

You're right that not every dentist desires to become a super GP but if income is one of your concerns I imagine it would be more beneficial for the GP in this case to expand the amount of procedures they perform and keep more things in-house.


Sent from my iPhone using SDN mobile

For the most part, yes- the overall volume (if solo) would likely be too low, and your high paying to low paying procedure ratio would almost never equal an OMFS. However one dentist who I shadowed who was super successful had associates mostly doing the easy stuff and he did the more money stuff (wizzies, endos, invisalign, implants) and a few stuff like fillings. But this guy set up early in a city when it was lowly populated and has the ability to do so- I'd imagine most students graduating now will not have that option and if they did, would take many years to reach his level. He's good, but all the variables seemed to fall into place- had he set up elsewhere or at a later time, he may not be where he is now. I am sure a general dentist who has a bunch of associates and hygienists and maybe specialists in his clinic will be killing it, but getting there seems a lot less surefire. And the associates under him seemed pretty miserable (they were the ones who wished they specialized) and were associates for a few years. Not everyone associates 1 or 2 years and suddenly opens a practice that beats 200k within years.

See one thing I think is there's slightly less "headache" of OMFS in that you have options to work at other people's clinics or partner in an OMFS private practice, doing T&T and maybe some hospital stuff on the side when you're bored. For a GD to beat that, they would have to be seriously good at business, set up at the perfect place, and have enough patients to where they can do what the above guy I mentioned does. And that's years into their practice too. Not to mention having to take CE courses. And I read traveling OS gets a bad rep, but at least corporate doesn't seem to be hurting OMFS people as bad as general dentists, where theres more of a direct competition. It's cool that OMFS don't have to be brick and mortar based and can work in other clinics (provided there's adequate equipment) to fill time if they just started their own clinic, want to do hospital some days of the week, or just increase income.

Another thing an OMFS told me is it's nice to be an expert of your field. Yea a general dentist can be doing all sorts of stuff, but I feel I would be way more confident and stressfree as a specialist who has been trained rigorously than to be like some superdentist who may not be 100% good at what he does spreading himself thin and running into complications in the hopes to earn a lot. Not trying to say every superdentist is like that, but you can bet there are people like that out there.

 

[schmoob]

For the most part, yes- the overall volume (if solo) would likely be too low, and your high paying to low paying procedure ratio would almost never equal an OMFS. However one dentist who I shadowed who was super successful had associates mostly doing the easy stuff and he did the more money stuff (wizzies, endos, invisalign, implants) and a few stuff like fillings. But this guy set up early in a city when it was lowly populated and has the ability to do so- I'd imagine most students graduating now will not have that option and if they did, would take many years to reach his level. He's good, but all the variables seemed to fall into place- had he set up elsewhere or at a later time, he may not be where he is now. I am sure a general dentist who has a bunch of associates and hygienists and maybe specialists in his clinic will be killing it, but getting there seems a lot less surefire. And the associates under him seemed pretty miserable (they were the ones who wished they specialized) and were associates for a few years. Not everyone associates 1 or 2 years and suddenly opens a practice that beats 200k within years.

See one thing I think is there's slightly less "headache" of OMFS in that you have options to work at other people's clinics or partner in an OMFS private practice, doing T&T and maybe some hospital stuff on the side when you're bored. For a GD to beat that, they would have to be seriously good at business, set up at the perfect place, and have enough patients to where they can do what the above guy I mentioned does. And that's years into their practice too. Not to mention having to take CE courses. And I read traveling OS gets a bad rep, but at least corporate doesn't seem to be hurting OMFS people as bad as general dentists, where theres more of a direct competition. It's cool that OMFS don't have to be brick and mortar based and can work in other clinics (provided there's adequate equipment) to fill time if they just started their own clinic, want to do hospital some days of the week, or just increase income.

Another thing an OMFS told me is it's nice to be an expert of your field. Yea a general dentist can be doing all sorts of stuff, but I feel I would be way more confident and stressfree as a specialist who has been trained rigorously than to be like some superdentist who may not be 100% good at what he does spreading himself thin and running into complications in the hopes to earn a lot. Not trying to say every superdentist is like that, but you can bet there are people like that out there.

Do not forget where all the specialists business comes from. They rely on the GP. If they lose a major referral base, it hurts their pockets bad.
So how do you break into a market where the GP's already have a place to send their extraction/implant cases? On the other side, how do you recover from a situation where you are established, but the new guy in town is starting to get your referrals? Referrals are how the specialists survive.

 

[Hannah Banana]

For the most part, yes- the overall volume (if solo) would likely be too low, and your high paying to low paying procedure ratio would almost never equal an OMFS. However one dentist who I shadowed who was super successful had associates mostly doing the easy stuff and he did the more money stuff (wizzies, endos, invisalign, implants) and a few stuff like fillings. But this guy set up early in a city when it was lowly populated and has the ability to do so- I'd imagine most students graduating now will not have that option and if they did, would take many years to reach his level. He's good, but all the variables seemed to fall into place- had he set up elsewhere or at a later time, he may not be where he is now. I am sure a general dentist who has a bunch of associates and hygienists and maybe specialists in his clinic will be killing it, but getting there seems a lot less surefire. And the associates under him seemed pretty miserable (they were the ones who wished they specialized) and were associates for a few years. Not everyone associates 1 or 2 years and suddenly opens a practice that beats 200k within years.

See one thing I think is there's slightly less "headache" of OMFS in that you have options to work at other people's clinics or partner in an OMFS private practice, doing T&T and maybe some hospital stuff on the side when you're bored. For a GD to beat that, they would have to be seriously good at business, set up at the perfect place, and have enough patients to where they can do what the above guy I mentioned does. And that's years into their practice too. Not to mention having to take CE courses. And I read traveling OS gets a bad rep, but at least corporate doesn't seem to be hurting OMFS people as bad as general dentists, where theres more of a direct competition. It's cool that OMFS don't have to be brick and mortar based and can work in other clinics (provided there's adequate equipment) to fill time if they just started their own clinic, want to do hospital some days of the week, or just increase income.

Another thing an OMFS told me is it's nice to be an expert of your field. Yea a general dentist can be doing all sorts of stuff, but I feel I would be way more confident and stressfree as a specialist who has been trained rigorously than to be like some superdentist who may not be 100% good at what he does spreading himself thin and running into complications in the hopes to earn a lot. Not trying to say every superdentist is like that, but you can bet there are people like that out there.

I tried to think from other people's perspectives regarding GP branching out and doing more complicated cases but somehow I have no gut to do it (to clarify: I'm not a dentist, yet). How am I going to get extensive training as specialists would so that I can do cases that specialists do without going through training (not saying that specialists don't make mistake)? Who is going to cover my a$$ if things go wrong? Am I going to practice something I just read or watched on Youtube on my own patients? How much more do I get paid and is it worth it to put my patients through that risk?
Do you think that GP can do everything that specialists do at the same level of quality? Please let me know. I'm curious.

 

[Hannah Banana]

Do not forget where all the specialists business comes from. They rely on the GP. If they lose a major referral base, it hurts their pockets bad.
So how do you break into a market where the GP's already have a place to send their extraction/implant cases? On the other side, how do you recover from a situation where you are established, but the new guy in town is starting to get your referrals? Referrals are how the specialists survive.

I heard this from specialists many times. They said the majority of referrals are due to GP playing superman or they don't want to risk it.

 

[deleted696582]

WHAT IS SDN'S OBSESSION WITH OMFS???? WOW.
What they can do is nothing short of remarkable, and I have the utmost respect for their resilience, their clinical abilities,and their intelligence.

But if it's money that's important, why go through all that training? The most financially successful OMS's are not doing big hospital cases anymore, they are in PP shucking 3rds and placing implants. They have a higher ROI doing those procedures, plus a better quality of life due to the reduced stress. Less work=more money; a good financial move.

There is lots of money to be made in dentistry, as a GP or specialist. But if you think that becoming a specialist is the only way to break $200K-$300K, you are dead wrong. And if you want to make the most money, what's the point of spending all those years in residency and med school learning how to rebuild faces if all you are going to end up doing is pulling 3rds anyway? Doesn't sound like the best move. Take a look at the Navy, they train their own OMFS's, but they aren't the ones who will be taking out 3rds. They have a 1 year training pipeline in exodontia to teach GP's to do that. This way the OMFS's can actually do what they are trained to do.

If money is most important, become a GP. Learn implants because as the GP, you will be placing AND restoring them. Learn aesthetics because it is a cash service. Jump on to the Sleep Dentistry train. Get Botox certified. And, you can do all of this WHILE working and already making money.
If you want to do OS because you ACTUALLY want to do it, then go for it. But don't be one of those people who choose to specialize to satisfy their own egos.

Also, as already stated, take the ADA's statistics with a grain of salt. There is lots of bias in those reports. Also, there is ONE researcher in charge of everything. Vujicic runs things the way he wants to, and his articles reflect that. I would NEVER take ADA research as fact.

I like to think that there's some alternate universe where SDN pre-dents are obsessed with prosthodontics and oral and maxillofacial radiology.

 

[Medin2017]

Do not forget where all the specialists business comes from. They rely on the GP. If they lose a major referral base, it hurts their pockets bad.
So how do you break into a market where the GP's already have a place to send their extraction/implant cases? On the other side, how do you recover from a situation where you are established, but the new guy in town is starting to get your referrals? Referrals are how the specialists survive.

Well many OMFS buy into practices or become partners, so that wouldn't seem as big as a deal as a GD starting from scratch where competition is greater. OMFS on wheels also doesn't seem as problematic competition wise as general dentistry- i see posts on dentaltown all the time of dentists wanting a specialist in their office or to come in a few days per week/month. On the other hand, I see everyone crying out about how saturation sucks for GPs on forums such as this one. Remember that the residency serving as a bottleneck will always limit competition more than the standard route. It's why dermatology is still decent except in really major cities where saturation is becoming more of an issue. I think the better question, is how does a GP break into a market? There are way more general dentists out there, to the point where in some cities breaking in is almost impossible. How can a GP survive if 3 new clinics open right nextdoor? What if castle dental or aspen or something opens near you and guarantees much lower costs? I think those problems are much greater than the specialists issues, and I seriously haven't read anything about saturation in specialties other than orthodontics and maybe peds. The issues with say endo is some ppl not opting for root canals now or decreased reimbursements, and I'm sure in the future, there might be lower reimbursement for OMFS cases. However, people seem to be pretty optimistic for OMFS (from the very limited forums I've read- still haven't really looked into aaoms or whatever yet).

I tried to think from other people's perspectives regarding GP branching out and doing more complicated cases but somehow I have no gut to do it (to clarify: I'm not a dentist, yet). How am I going to get extensive training as specialists would so that I can do cases that specialists do without going through training (not saying that specialists don't make mistake)? Who is going to cover my a$$ if things go wrong? Am I going to practice something I just read or watched on Youtube on my own patients? How much more do I get paid and is it worth it to put my patients through that risk?
Do you think that GP can do everything that specialists do at the same level of quality? Please let me know. I'm curious.

Probably will never match a specialist in training but is satisfactory enough for patients. And can always refer out stuff that is insane.

I like to think that there's some alternate universe where SDN pre-dents are obsessed with prosthodontics and oral and maxillofacial radiology.

In the same universe where family medicine is the goal of every med student and orthopedics and dermatology is for those with lower step scores.

 

[Hannah Banana]

I like to think that there's some alternate universe where SDN pre-dents are obsessed with prosthodontics and oral and maxillofacial radiology.

Ehem, there are people who love prosth.

 

[deleted696582]

WHAT IS SDN'S OBSESSION WITH OMFS???? WOW.

It's funny because I found this thread (What's your goal in Dentistry?) and 25% of the respondents wanted to be an OMFS. 55% wanted to specialize to some degree. Not a bad sample for this site either with 300 people responding.

 

[wengerout]

It's funny because I found this thread (What's your goal in Dentistry?) and 25% of the respondents wanted to be an OMFS. 55% wanted to specialize to some degree. Not a bad sample for this site either with 300 people responding.

Playing devils advocate, SDN attracts the cream of the crop so to speak. We can see this with every DAT survey taken on the site. There are many in my undergrad who got into dental school who have never even heard of SDN. So it's unsurprising that those driven to spend their days on SDN want to specialize as well.

 

[deleted696582]

Ehem, there are people who love prosth.

I don't doubt it! Just haven't seen many around SDN.

 

[deleted696582]

Playing devils advocate, SDN attracts the cream of the crop so to speak. We can see this with every DAT survey taken on the site. There are many in my undergrad who got into dental school who have never even heard of SDN. So it's unsurprising that those driven to spend their days on SDN want to specialize as well.

I agree with that. That's what the poll is showing that I posted above - SDN people disproportionately want to specialize. What's the devil's advocate?

 

[schmoob]

I agree with that. That's what the poll is showing that I posted above - SDN people disproportionately want to specialize. What's the devil's advocate?

Wait until after D1, the number of people who want to specialize (especially OMS) will change drastically.

 

[wengerout]

I agree with that. That's what the poll is showing that I posted above - SDN people disproportionately want to specialize. What's the devil's advocate?

Ahh sorry I misunderstood you.

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[wengerout]

During* D1, let alone after. It's amazing seeing all the people listed as recipients on the oral surgery interest group meetings. The list winnows down from meeting to meeting, and even now there are people listed as recipients who just haven't bothered to take their names off the list. It decreases very quickly lol.

Do you think it's grades that kill interest or once they learn more about it they are no longer interested?


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[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[schmoob]

During* D1, let alone after. It's amazing seeing all the people listed as recipients on the oral surgery interest group meetings. The list winnows down from meeting to meeting, and even now there are people listed as recipients who just haven't bothered to take their names off the list. It decreases very quickly lol.

Yep. Many come into school thinking they are going to be a dentist in 4 years, then 6 years later they will be a hotshot surgeon and an MD, JUST LIKE the OMFS they shadowed who takes out 3rds all day and pulls in $400K+. Who wouldnt want that? There are definitely those who accomplish that goal. But there are many who get hit with reality as soon as they realize what the job REALLY entails, and how competitive it is.

Do you think it's grades that kill interest or once they learn more about it they are no longer interested?


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Both. Many realize that they aren't the 3.9 students they were in undergrad and/or see presentations on cases such as patients surviving .00 buck to the face, and how they are responsible for fixing that.

 

[wengerout]

Yep. Many come into school thinking they are going to be a dentist in 4 years, then 6 years later they will be a hotshot surgeon and an MD, JUST LIKE the OMFS they shadowed who takes out 3rds all day and pulls in $400K+. Who wouldnt want that? There are definitely those who accomplish that goal. But there are many who get hit with reality as soon as they realize what the job REALLY entails, and how competitive it is.

One thing I don't understand is why is it OMFS go through all this training, yet it's the most "simplistic" procedure that they do that makes the most money. I know they can still go in a few days every month to do the more advanced procedures but it still doesn't make sense to me.

 

[wengerout]

Both. Many realize that they aren't the 3.9 students they were in undergrad and/or see presentations on cases such as patients surviving .00 buck to the face, and how they are responsible for fixing that.

One must wonder though, how would you know if you enjoy fixing peoples faces until you actually do it? For example, you hear about dental students who shadows hundreds of hours just to pick up a hand piece and realize you really hate doing fillings or a crown prep. So wouldn't this be true for OMFS as well (Since the other specialties build off fundamentals you learn in dental school with the exception of perhaps Ortho). I know you get rounds as well as internships/externships but is that really enough?

 

[Scumbag_Steve]

.

 

[schmoob]

Its also about the time involved. Big cases pay more, but take alot of time. In that same time you can take out a bunch of 3rds at a lower cost each, but collectively it comes out to be more. And its easier.

 

[Str82th]

Its also about the time involved. Big cases pay more, but take alot of time. In that same time you can take out a bunch of 3rds at a lower cost each, but collectively it comes out to be more. And its easier.

Most surgeons will say the ext 3rds so they can afford to perform craniofacial surgeries. They really don't reimburse well.

 

[Medin2017]

It's never enough. You having realized this challenge puts you way ahead of the game for maturity and perspective as an incoming student. Nobody knows what they'll enjoy doing until they do it, which is just another reason why pursing a specialty with a long, time consuming residency is a big commitment to some people. If people go GP, they can, if nothing else, practice a wide variety of things and more tailor their scope to their interests.


They go through all that training because they truly do enjoy the bigger stuff, but when you're 32 with a wife and young kids after you've finally finished your training where you spent more years becoming educated after K-12 than during K-12, the allure of a lucrative career really appeals to some people. They need to help make it up to their family and significant other for being absent for so long, both with providing for them and spending time with them. Not to mention the mountain of loans with interest that has been accruing forever

If you're asking why the big procedures aren't reimbursed as well; insurance etc.

yep. THe OMFS resident I spoke to said he went in b/c he was interested in the big cases but now just wants to go into private practice. Kinda like how some ppl go into med school with altruistic goals but end up wanting derm for its lifestyle (not saying derm isn't serving ppl/community).

Also let's be honest- a lot of us went into dental itself b/c its lifestyle for the most part beat most of the med ones. Of course we want to serve and interact with ppl and the hands on stuff, but the lifestyle is a huge deal for a big chunk of predents/dental students/dentists.

 

[wengerout]

yep. THe OMFS resident I spoke to said he went in b/c he was interested in the big cases but now just wants to go into private practice. Kinda like how some ppl go into med school with altruistic goals but end up wanting derm for its lifestyle (not saying derm isn't serving ppl/community).

Also let's be honest- a lot of us went into dental itself b/c its lifestyle for the most part beat most of the med ones. Of course we want to serve and interact with ppl and the hands on stuff, but the lifestyle is a huge deal for a big chunk of predents/dental students/dentists.

By that you mean he just wants to do T&T? Is the lifestyle for those that just do T&T similar to a dentist?

 

[schmoob]

yep. THe OMFS resident I spoke to said he went in b/c he was interested in the big cases but now just wants to go into private practice. Kinda like how some ppl go into med school with altruistic goals but end up wanting derm for its lifestyle (not saying derm isn't serving ppl/community).

Also let's be honest- a lot of us went into dental itself b/c its lifestyle for the most part beat most of the med ones. Of course we want to serve and interact with ppl and the hands on stuff, but the lifestyle is a huge deal for a big chunk of predents/dental students/dentists.

I didn't realize this post was going to be as long as it is. I went off on a tangent or two, so I apologize. But I do get to the point eventually

I agree, this isn't a dental school interview and no one is fooling anyone here. The lifestyle is good, the pay is good, and there is plenty of opportunity. Even if many medical specialties make more, so what? What good is making more money if you don't have time to enjoy It? Work to live, don't live to work. One of my closest friends is a fellowship trained physician. He makes plenty of money, but he works so much! Also, he is in a specialty that is particularly difficult emotionally, and very stressful. I have the utmost respect for him and his field, but I couldn't do it. I do not envy him. These were actually topics that I was asked during my dental school interviews, and I spoke about them honestly. I was also asked the classic "Why dentistry?" And my response was "Because on my first day of dental school, I will already know exactly what end of the body I'm going to be working on."

I feel like dentistry has more "options" while medicine has more "avenues." IMO, Dentists can choose from a larger variety of practicing.

• They can specialize, if qualified and motivated enough. Focusing on depth versus breadth, and being the go-to person in their field.
• All dentists can choose to be entrepreneurial and base their scope of care as wide as they want (well, within reason and abilities). Not all medical specialties have the ability to do so. An example would be to focus on cosmetics, which can be VERY lucrative. It's the same reason derm and plastics do so well: vanity is paid for in cash. Have you ever checked out how much a full mouth reconstruction costs? Wow.
• They can steer away from the business side if they choose, and make a good living by just going to work every day and coming home. They leave their work at the office.
• If one so chooses (and is able) to get into a government gig, it's great. Of course physicians do this as well.
• The military is great if someone is cool with that lifestyle. It really IS a lifestyle. But i think many don't know enough about it and dismiss it too quickly.
• Hospital dentistry
• Public health
• Academia
• Organized dentistry (ADA and such)
• Corporate. Not as an employee, but as a franchisee. Opening up corporate offices.
• Working for manufacturers (Schein, Dentsply...)
• Insurance. Unfortunately we know there are greedy people who overtreat, overbill, etc. These big-time insurance companies can pay some big bucks to dentists who sift through billing codes that don't look right. The reason being is they need subject matter experts to catch unethical dentists taking advantage of patients and insurance companies.

My point behind all of this is for those who are so dead-set on specializing, I wish you luck and hope you achieve your goals. But keep in mind that if you do not match, you still have many options to choose from. You can still do very well financially if that is a goal, But its up to you to achieve it.

 

[Medin2017]

I didn't realize this post was going to be as long as it is. I went off on a tangent or two, so I apologize. But I do get to the point eventually

I agree, this isn't a dental school interview and no one is fooling anyone here. The lifestyle is good, the pay is good, and there is plenty of opportunity. Even if many medical specialties make more, so what? What good is making more money if you don't have time to enjoy It? Work to live, don't live to work. One of my closest friends is a fellowship trained physician. He makes plenty of money, but he works so much! Also, he is in a specialty that is particularly difficult emotionally, and very stressful. I have the utmost respect for him and his field, but I couldn't do it. I do not envy him. These were actually topics that I was asked during my dental school interviews, and I spoke about them honestly. I was also asked the classic "Why dentistry?" And my response was "Because on my first day of dental school, I will already know exactly what end of the body I'm going to be working on."

I feel like dentistry has more "options" while medicine has more "avenues." IMO, Dentists can choose from a larger variety of practicing.

• They can specialize, if qualified and motivated enough. Focusing on depth versus breadth, and being the go-to person in their field.
• All dentists can choose to be entrepreneurial and base their scope of care as wide as they want (well, within reason and abilities). Not all medical specialties have the ability to do so. An example would be to focus on cosmetics, which can be VERY lucrative. It's the same reason derm and plastics do so well: vanity is paid for in cash. Have you ever checked out how much a full mouth reconstruction costs? Wow.
• They can steer away from the business side if they choose, and make a good living by just going to work every day and coming home. They leave their work at the office.
• If one so chooses (and is able) to get into a government gig, it's great. Of course physicians do this as well.
• The military is great if someone is cool with that lifestyle. It really IS a lifestyle. But i think many don't know enough about it and dismiss it too quickly.
• Hospital dentistry
• Public health
• Academia
• Organized dentistry (ADA and such)
• Corporate. Not as an employee, but as a franchisee. Opening up corporate offices.
• Working for manufacturers (Schein, Dentsply...)
• Insurance. Unfortunately we know there are greedy people who overtreat, overbill, etc. These big-time insurance companies can pay some big bucks to dentists who sift through billing codes that don't look right. The reason being is they need subject matter experts to catch unethical dentists taking advantage of patients and insurance companies.

My point behind all of this is for those who are so dead-set on specializing, I wish you luck and hope you achieve your goals. But keep in mind that if you do not match, you still have many options to choose from. You can still do very well financially if that is a goal, But its up to you to achieve it.

Yep exactly my thought process on applying. Always thought of med as being able to choose different body parts but almost 100% chance you'll be in a hospital and unable to choose your own hours once you're in a job. General dent for sure seems like something I'd do over family practice, pediatrics, etc. (insert noncompetitive med specialty that some people end up in if they don't do well on boards even if they wanted something else) too. And in regard to which specialties are better, I think the dent ones usually beat the med ones (even including the king of med specialties: derm- everyone seems to want this on the MD forums of SDN and it's THE lifestyle specialty). But to me, as of now, OMFS > derm since it seems to have a higher income ceiling along with similar hours (or better provided you work less than 5 days per week). The other specialties that are prestigious in med just have awful hours for the most part anyway.
However, I do like how med schools are mostly p/f and they just take one big exam to determine their lives instead of having to micromanage as much in school (dental has a bunch of random responsibilities peppered in with classes at many schools like mine whereas first 2 years med is just being a bookworm).

In regards to the dead-set thing on specializing, I just am putting up a tangible goal for myself since I can't be motivated by just "keeping options open" or "studying for the sake of being a good provider". Yes those are good reasons to study, but it won't light a fire under my butt as much as saying I wanna be x rank or match something. If I find I hate OMFS or something crazy like that, oh well. But every career becomes a job in the end anyway.

 

[Medin2017]

By that you mean he just wants to do T&T? Is the lifestyle for those that just do T&T similar to a dentist?

Well just private practice where it T&T would make up a bulk of it. And yes, the lifestyle would be similar as a dentist. I used to believe OMFS lifestyle sucked and questioned why people would do it, but that's just the people who are mostly in the hospital and may still be on called. You don't have to go that option (but I guess if the procedures are really interesting or fulfilling, you still can if you want). And plus since for the most part OMFS hourly rate beats almost every health profession out there, you can work fewer days if you want than some other medical jobs and still be well compensated. From the posts I've read on here and on dtown, many OMFS work like 2-3 days private practice and then some days in the hospital because they like the procedures. I'm sure if lifestyle and money was your ONLY motivator, then you could just do like 3-4 day weeks private practice like some general dentists do or other dental specialties.

 

[schmoob]

Yep exactly my thought process on applying. Always thought of med as being able to choose different body parts but almost 100% chance you'll be in a hospital and unable to choose your own hours once you're in a job. General dent for sure seems like something I'd do over family practice, pediatrics, etc. (insert noncompetitive med specialty that some people end up in if they don't do well on boards even if they wanted something else) too. And in regard to which specialties are better, I think the dent ones usually beat the med ones (even including the king of med specialties: derm- everyone seems to want this on the MD forums of SDN and it's THE lifestyle specialty). But to me, as of now, OMFS > derm since it seems to have a higher income ceiling along with similar hours (or better provided you work less than 5 days per week). The other specialties that are prestigious in med just have awful hours for the most part anyway.
However, I do like how med schools are mostly p/f and they just take one big exam to determine their lives instead of having to micromanage as much in school (dental has a bunch of random responsibilities peppered in with classes at many schools like mine whereas first 2 years med is just being a bookworm).

In regards to the dead-set thing on specializing, I just am putting up a tangible goal for myself since I can't be motivated by just "keeping options open" or "studying for the sake of being a good provider". Yes those are good reasons to study, but it won't light a fire under my butt as much as saying I wanna be x rank or match something. If I find I hate OMFS or something crazy like that, oh well. But every career becomes a job in the end anyway.

Here is some data from BLS on dentists:

The rows we want to pay attention to are the top for OMFS, and the bottom for GP. btw it's only the bottom because that's where I stopped the screenshot. I find these statistics much more reliable because of the larger sample size, as well the inclusion of the RSE. The 700 GP respondents in the ADA represent ~0.0075% of the employed dentists in this chart. That is why that data is unreliable.
Take a look at this chart and let me know what you think.

Also, lots of speculation here. Let's get a REAL OMS in here to talk about his experiences (if he chooses to) in school, residency, practice, etc. @Localnative always provides solid input.

 

[allantois]

BLS statistic on OMS is nonsense, as it is for other medical professionals. My mentor was an OMS. They charge $2000 cash for a 1 hour procedure and live very very wealthy. No one over at the medical forums takes those BLS statistics seriously. Try something by physician recruiter companies, as they sometimes report data on dentists as well.

Honestly I hate BLS, they still report lawyers salaries at 100k, and people use that nonsense to justify their career choices.

 

[Medin2017]

Yea mds use med scape these days where minimum income is like 200k. Actually lots of my speculation comes from his and other omfs posts. Too bad they don't use sdn as often as mds do

edit:: there was a post on SDN analyzing hourly rate a long time ago (like 2003 or 2009?) and OMFS had the highest hourly wage with dental specialties beating out most med ones, but it's prob out of date now. It definitely understated some med specialties too

 

[Cold Front]

In statistics iirc it doesn't have to be millions to be representative. Like if it's a simple random sample with a decent representation of areas, even 50 can be enough. Idk how adamant does it, but 700+ definitely seems kinda reasonable. Then again I forgot most of stats lol just remember n=30 or more was usually considered ok

All the independent pre-election polls showed Trump would lose all the swing states, many by a large margin, few within a margin of error, but not him actually wining any of those states, and they spent more money than the ADA tand had much larger random samples to collect that data. I believe Trump ended up picking most of the swing states, which threw a monkey wrench into the entire polling machine process.

Anyways, I use to think like you when I was in dental school, and felt the ADA was this historic solid institution that gets everything right. But in my experience in the real word, the ADA doesn't have the resources to get their data right when it comes to practicing dentists income breakdown, and even if they did, the vast majority of dentists (including myself) would never disclose my financial numbers with the pertaining information about my profession (location and age) to an agency that I don't have strong affiliations with, and that's a fact. Maybe not now, but it would take a lot more than a simple form to just share such information. I would rather share such information with some of my vendors, which I have more personal day to day business relations with. Hell no!

 

[DentistScientist]

Not all OMFS aspiring people want income and lifestyle. I want academic oral surgery and want to become a faculty member doing research that is closely related to my clinical practice.

My training would be 11 to 13 yrs from now on.


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[deleted696582]

My training will be 11 to 13 yrs from now on.

Are you currently in an OMFS program?

 

[DentistScientist]

Are you currently in an OMFS program?

no. I am officially starting my DMD PHD program (7 years) next Monday. Then I plan on doing OMFS (4~6 yrs). I know role models who are simultaneously OMFS and researchers in dental schools and hospitals.

 

[wengerout]

no. I am officially starting my DMD PHD program (7 years) next Monday. Then I plan on doing OMFS (4~6 yrs). I know role models who are simultaneously OMFS and researchers in dental schools and hospitals.

UAB?


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[DentistScientist]

UAB?


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Haha uab is a great program(currently #1 nidcr funding) but i am not in that.


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