How Common are the Following in Top 10 Admissions?

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If anyone has an idea of how common any of the following are in applicants who apply to Top 10 schools, I would love to hear your thoughts (I admit I'm a bit clueless myself) - thanks!

(1) MCAT > 520 (it seems like half this board has MCAT's higher?)
(2) First author publication, Sole First Author publication, 2nd author publication
(3) Publication in Nature / Science / etc.
(4) Every single letter of recommendation being the best of the best ('this student is the greatest thing since sliced bread'- type) - in general, what would be considered a very competitive 'letter of recommendation' strength profile (e.g. with 6 letters total) for a candidate to these schools?
(5) Harmful letter of recommendation
(6) Extremely helpful, neutral, harmful personal statement
(7) Average length (both time / duration of clinical volunteering); shadowing hours
(8) Club leadership

 

[capriccio]

If you really want to scope things out, you could probably just browse the student profiles on mdapplicants and filter with "received interview" and then a random T10 school. Keep in mind that SDN disproportionately attracts high stat applicants, so it's probably not an accurate representation of the applicant body.

 

[deleted966008]

If anyone has an idea of how common any of the following are in applicants who apply to Top 10 schools, I would love to hear your thoughts (I admit I'm a bit clueless myself) - thanks!

(1) MCAT > 520 (it seems like half this board has MCAT's higher?)
(2) First author publication, Sole First Author publication, 2nd author publication
(3) Publication in Nature / Science / etc.
(4) Every single letter of recommendation being the best of the best ('this student is the greatest thing since sliced bread'- type) - in general, what would be considered a very competitive 'letter of recommendation' strength profile (e.g. with 6 letters total) for a candidate to these schools?
(5) Harmful letter of recommendation
(6) Extremely helpful, neutral, harmful personal statement
(7) Average length (both time / duration of clinical volunteering); shadowing hours
(8) Club leadership

1) 50% of accepted students, given the medians
2) I’d say over half are published, few as first author
3) very few unless you’re talking about MD/PhD, then probably more
4) quite common
5) very rare among accepted students because the margins between applicants are so slim
6) mostly helpful, few neutral
7) 500+ clinical, 75-150 shadowing
8) idk

 

[Walter Raleigh]

I would suspect that first-author Nature or Science papers are somewhat rare even for Harvard MD/PhD applicants. Maybe ten percent of them have those.

 

[deleted966008]

I would suspect that first-author Nature or Science papers are somewhat rare even for Harvard MD/PhD applicants. Maybe ten percent of them have those.

I should have clarified that I wasn’t discussing first authorship on that point. Regardless, I admittedly don’t know as much about that process and to what extent applicants differ from MD only apps

 

[Toutie]

1) 50% of accepted students, given the medians
2) I’d say over half are published, few as first author
3) very few unless you’re talking about MD/PhD, then probably more
4) quite common
5) very rare among accepted students because the margins between applicants are so slim
6) mostly helpful, few neutral
7) 500+ clinical, 75-150 shadowing
8) idk

Out of curiosity...how many applications to top 10 schools have you read?

 

[deleted966008]

Out of curiosity...how many applications to top 10 schools have you read?

This is purely guesswork with no supporting evidence (I'm just an undergrad student). There are far better people to obtain information from, but as there were no replies on the thread I figured I'd chime in for fun.

Also as an applicant who applied to 10 or so of the top 20 and only interviewed at 1 of them, perhaps I am currently prone to overestimating the pedigree of a "typical" applicant to these schools. I would be curious to hear others' thoughts

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

520s are almost expected if you are an ORM.
First author publication at a middle IF is stronger than a middle tag-along authorship at C/N/S.
First author publication, however, will not generally make up for a low GPA or MCAT.
Club leadership is not really worth anything, in my opinion.
Interviews are VERY important for T10s

 

[cc2233]

<520 ORM checking in with 4 T10/T20 interviews this cycle. I'd say "X factor" should be #8 instead of club leadership. I met Rhodes, Fulbrights, consultants, and nonprofit analysts and other super cool people during my interview trail.

Re: interviews, I think it depends on the school. I had fantastic interview feedback and yet was still rejected from the T3 school I interviewed. At the highest caliber schools, it probably depends a lot on the other applicants and the experiences they bring to the table, because at the end of the day, these schools get their pick of the crop.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

I wonder if there have ever been any political leaders turned doctor: Senators, Representatives, even mayors or state senators. That'd probably be unique, especially the Congressmen. Also, NASA rocket scientist seems like a unique career field: adcoms haven't seen any.

 

[Lucca]

Moving to PreAllo as this is more of a general discussion Q

 

[deleted966008]

<520 ORM checking in with 4 T10/T20 interviews this cycle. I'd say "X factor" should be #8 instead of club leadership. I met Rhodes, Fulbrights, consultants, and nonprofit analysts and other super cool people during my interview trail.

Re: interviews, I think it depends on the school. I had fantastic interview feedback and yet was still rejected from the T3 school I interviewed. At the highest caliber schools, it probably depends a lot on the other applicants and the experiences they bring to the table, because at the end of the day, these schools get their pick of the crop.

I would agree that some sort of “X-Factor” is likely what makes the difference. Everyone at interview day for these schools clearly has the intellectual capability to get an MD - it’s the rest that probably determines outcomes

 

[desert_tortoise]

Having had the great fortune of a strong application cycle at a mix of T-10, mid-tier and state schools, I will also second the "X-factor" point but stress that this doesn't have to be an insane thing like former SEAL operative or astronaut (@ infamous Harvard med student). Having a strong narrative and a clear idea of what you will bring to the medical school uniquely compared with your peers will set you apart from the rest of the high-performing pack. So many schools ask about "diversity" in some way during the application cycle which is such a key question and unfortunately I think a lot of people brush it aside prematurely. However, it is a critical change for applicants to think about who they are broadly and ask themselves what their own "It" factor is (and saying that you are well-rounded in most things unfortunately doesn't cut it). Are you an insanely team-oriented person; are you a creator; are you a globally-minded individual, etc. Yes, you need to have good GPA, MCAT, etc, but you need to be YOU and also able to express this clearly and honestly in an interview setting.

 

[meronebib]

Also want to stress about this whole “X-factor” thing. A lot of kids I met at T10 schools (and have stalked on FB acceptance groups) are just really normal, even really nerdy. One thing I have noticed is that many come from prestigious universities though.

 

[deleted966008]

Also want to stress about this whole “X-factor” thing. A lot of kids I met at T10 schools (and have stalked on FB acceptance groups) are just really normal, even really nerdy. One thing I have noticed is that many come from prestigious universities though.

I agree with you but do you think that actually represents any sort of implicit bias favoring applicants from prestigious undergrads or is more indicative of the fact that more often than not the highest performing students happen to attend these "top" schools for undergrad?

 

[meronebib]

I agree with you but do you think that actually represents any sort of implicit bias favoring applicants from prestigious undergrads or is more indicative of the fact that more often than not the highest performing students happen to attend these "top" schools for undergrad?

I’m sure a lot of it has to do with the caliber of student that comes from these universities and the opportunities that exist at these universities. I doubt it’s just name only.

 

[965978]

I agree with you but do you think that actually represents any sort of implicit bias favoring applicants from prestigious undergrads or is more indicative of the fact that more often than not the highest performing students happen to attend these "top" schools for undergrad?

Both. If you go to a top undergrad, you're very likely to be connected to a top med school (the only exceptions would be Princeton, Cornell, and MIT). So those students have a high upper hand when it comes to landing innovative research projects, shadowing, clinical programs, etc.

 

[deleted966008]

I’m sure a lot of it has to do with the caliber of student that comes from these universities and the opportunities that exist at these universities. I doubt it’s just name only.

That was my line of thinking as well. I would even go so far as to argue the same for med school - the high performers will stand out in residency applications & a lot of the high performers just happen to have attended these T10 medical schools.

That's not to diminish the fact that there are amazing opportunities available at say, Harvard, that you simply can't get at an average state school. It's just my long winded way of telling the OP that the reason these top schools have higher step scores, etc. may have just as much if not more to do with the level of intellectual talent they are recruiting from Day 1 than anything special or unique about the curriculum. It's a feed-forward process that continues on & on but at the same time don't feel like not going to a T10/20 presents some insurmountable barrier.

 

[Gilakend]

From my personal experience (accepted at T10/T20):

1-5: No. But listed on publication. 4 LORs.

6. Decent PS I think, probably cookie cutter.
7. Clinical volunteering over 1+ year, clinical working over 2 years, combined hours probably around ~350-400. Shadowing less than 50 hours.
8. Club leadership: yes, VP of non-clinical volunteering club.

Low-tier state school UG.

EDIT: like @TempuraOreos said though I was told I had a good "story" / experiences

 

[HopeP]

you could probably just browse the student profiles on mdapplicants and filter with "received interview" and then a random T10 school

Pardon my ignorance being new member, where do I find mdapplicants?

 

[jj_Sharp2]

Interviewed at 6 T-20’s, accepted at a T-5, WL at the others.

ORM, <520 MCAT (low CARS), No pubs. Probably Above average LOR but nothing incredible

I think what got me in was my “X”-factor, very strong essays (spent hundreds of hours polishing PS & Secondaries to make up for my cars score), the interview of a lifetime, and a lot of luck. I’ve realized when it comes to these schools, the cohesive narrative and X factor is everything. My faculty interviewer at the school told me my personal statement “blew him away”, so don’t skimp on that if you’re lacking in others.

 

[965978]

From my personal experience (accepted at T10/T20):

1-5: No. But listed on publication. 4 LORs.

6. Decent PS I think, probably cookie cutter.
7. Clinical volunteering over 1+ year, clinical working over 2 years, combined hours probably around ~350-400. Shadowing less than 50 hours.
8. Club leadership: yes, VP of non-clinical volunteering club.

Low-tier state school UG.

Pre-med research is a huge luck-of-the-draw. Some PIs don't publish very often, some don't want undergrads associated with the publication. I had a PI that intentionally did not want undergrads to be part of certain parts of the bigger project we were on simply because he was so paranoid about the details getting out and someone claiming his intellectual property.

 

[TempuraOreos]

Ended up with several T10/T20 interviews and acceptances
1. 90+% but <520
2. 3rd author pub, but some 1st author posters all in social sciences
3. LOL
4. My undergrad wanted 6 LORs to do Committee LOR (probs a few that were generic, but then others were probably really good) and then added research mentor letter for research-oriented schools
5. Nah
6. Pretty solid narrative from what I've been told
7. Got by by doing bare minimum ~150 hours clinical volunteering over about a year, 50 hours shadowing
8. Several leadership positions both during and post undergrad
9. "X-factor" if that's a thing: have some cool ECs/work experience and apparently conveyed their relevance in my life well.

 

[965978]

Ended up with several T10/T20 interviews and acceptances
1. 90+% but <520
2. 3rd author pub, but some 1st author posters all in social sciences
3. LOL
4. My undergrad wanted 6 LORs to do Committee LOR (probs a few that were generic, but then others were probably really good) and then added research mentor letter for research-oriented schools
5. Nah
6. Pretty solid narrative from what I've been told
7. Got by by doing bare minimum ~150 hours clinical volunteering over about a year, 50 hours shadowing
8. Several leadership positions both during and post undergrad
9. "X-factor" if that's a thing: have some cool ECs/work experience and apparently conveyed their relevance in my life well.

The the main strengths of your app were MCAT, X Factor, and Research?

The more experience I get, the more I realize that research is the key to top schools.

 

[capriccio]

Pardon my ignorance being new member, where do I find mdapplicants?

Home - MDApplicants.com and then just click on the student profiles tab.

 

[HopeP]

Home - MDApplicants.com and then just click on the student profiles tab.

thank you. Edited: its strange, I visited the website and picked a school where my son is UG Freshman and boom your ID came right there and you had attended the interview there, what a coincidence for a new member.🙂🙂

 

[capriccio]

The more experience I get, the more I realize that research is the key to top schools.

I think having research is important, but I don't think it's exactly key for top schools. I've done research for several years throughout undergrad, but have 0 publications and only pretty minor poster presentations (like, super insignificant lol), but I've received 6 T20 IIs as a trad ORM and have been accepted to a T20. I doubt my research stands out in any particular way compared to most T20 applicants—I ultimately think it was having some interesting ECs/interests, being able to speak impactfully and articulately about my more interesting AND my more "cookie-cutter" experiences, as well as clearly elaborating why I would be a good fit for a particular school.

 

[jessicajonesharvard]

I think having research is important, but I don't think it's exactly key for top schools. I've done research for several years throughout undergrad, but have 0 publications and only pretty minor poster presentations (like, super insignificant lol), but I've received 6 T20 IIs as a trad ORM and have been accepted to a T20. I doubt my research stands out in any particular way compared to most T20 applicants—I ultimately think it was having some interesting ECs/interests, being able to speak impactfully and articulately about my more interesting AND my more "cookie-cutter" experiences, as well as clearly elaborating why I would be a good fit for a particular school.

Your LizzyM is extraordinary!!! Congrats on your success 🙂

 

[TempuraOreos]

The the main strengths of your app were MCAT, X Factor, and Research?

The more experience I get, the more I realize that research is the key to top schools.

I don't known if it's key. I think it's more like the top schools also happen to have a strong research emphasis so they pick those with research experience. If the top schools happened to have a focus on service, then you'd see tons of top 20 applicants with like 800+ service hours and like little 150 hours of research.

I can't attempt to understand Admissions process because at times it's so subjective. But I think my MCAT got me through the door, my academic activities drew more attention, and then my experiences (life, work, etc.) and the ability to articulate helped seal the deal for most places.

 

[Wahkoon]

I have 3 acceptances at T5 schools, and while I think stats and research or important, the important thing is to stand out and be genuine. None of my experiences felt like I was checking a box – all of them were >1 year. I also had multiple non-medical activities I was able to include in my application. A significant amount of time in my interviews was spent discussing my hobbies and interests, not medicine.

1. Not 520, but >90th percentile
2/3. I have 0 publications, but 3 years experience in clinical research, with several hundred in basic science from undergrad. Publications are not necessary, but understanding the science is.
4/5. I had 5 LORs, all of which I consider very strong – I only asked professors and physicians I knew very well. 2 of them were from academic physicians who served as my PIs.
6. PS was a very strong point of my application. I actually had multiple interviewers mention specific things I wrote in my statement. Don’t skimp here. This is where you paint yourself as a human and not just a set of numbers.
7. I had longitudinal volunteer clinical experiences (~500 over 3 years), with ~100 hours in primary care shadowing
8. 2 years leadership in a community organization

 

[Walter Raleigh]

Also want to stress about this whole “X-factor” thing. A lot of kids I met at T10 schools (and have stalked on FB acceptance groups) are just really normal, even really nerdy. One thing I have noticed is that many come from prestigious universities though.

Hey, John von Neumann, by all accounts, was quite normal - and a full professor at 28! And there are more than a few brilliant individuals that were described as normal and socially-gifted, from Bill Clinton to Richard Feynman. So you might have the (admittedly quite rare) 27-year-old full Harvard professor deciding on a career in medicine.

 

[scrapy]

520s are almost expected if you are an ORM.
First author publication at a middle IF is stronger than a middle tag-along authorship at C/N/S.
First author publication, however, will not generally make up for a low GPA or MCAT.
Club leadership is not really worth anything, in my opinion.
Interviews are VERY important for T10s

IMO First author in low IF trumps non first author anywhere else. Middle authors (especially 3rd and beyond) are majorly due to luck.

Club leadership is worthwhile if you can write about how you made a significant difference. If you can get employment leadership that looks even better.

I disagree about interviews. Almost everyone has an at least decent interview at T20s. When they finally cut out the 10-15% of crazy people, they look back at the apps of the others, and then try to form a class with high stats, diversity, and unique experiences.

 

[scrapy]

Having had the great fortune of a strong application cycle at a mix of T-10, mid-tier and state schools, I will also second the "X-factor" point but stress that this doesn't have to be an insane thing like former SEAL operative or astronaut (@ infamous Harvard med student). Having a strong narrative and a clear idea of what you will bring to the medical school uniquely compared with your peers will set you apart from the rest of the high-performing pack. So many schools ask about "diversity" in some way during the application cycle which is such a key question and unfortunately I think a lot of people brush it aside prematurely. However, it is a critical change for applicants to think about who they are broadly and ask themselves what their own "It" factor is (and saying that you are well-rounded in most things unfortunately doesn't cut it). Are you an insanely team-oriented person; are you a creator; are you a globally-minded individual, etc. Yes, you need to have good GPA, MCAT, etc, but you need to be YOU and also able to express this clearly and honestly in an interview setting.

I had a prominent X factor in my PS and secondaries, and I’m having less success than I thought I would. My mcat is above 90%tile, but there are so many applicants with 99%tile Mcats. I think that X factor needs to in fact be something out of this world (often needing 2+ gap years) if your stats aren’t up to par for the T20s.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

By "prominent X factor" are you talking something like military service or world-class athletics or musicianship?

 

[scrapy]

By "prominent X factor" are you talking something like military service or world-class athletics or musicianship?

Desert tortoise’s premise was that the X factor doesn’t need to be world class but something that makes you stand out compared to the normal applicant pool. That’s what mine fell under. I’m then arguing that it does need to be world class for top schools if some other part of your app isn’t perfect

 

[Gilakend]

By "prominent X factor" are you talking something like military service or world-class athletics or musicianship?

In my opinion X factors are anything that make you stand out in a positively and adds diversity (in other words an uncommon perspective) to the class.

This could be military service, life experiences that bring a unique perspective, world-class activities, etc. It is also important to note that something could be an X factor for one institution and not another.

I'm a traditional, non-URM student, but had interviewers at multiple schools comment positively on my background and how it was uncommon in med school apps. However, my experiences were by no means "world-class". It was just how I grew up, but was commented on multiple times. So while maybe not a traditional "X factor" like if I was an Olympic medalist or military veteran, it was something that differentiated me and they thought was noteworthy.

At another school I interviewed at my background seemed to be more common and much less noteworthy and nobody mentioned it.

 

[Goro]

If anyone has an idea of how common any of the following are in applicants who apply to Top 10 schools, I would love to hear your thoughts (I admit I'm a bit clueless myself) - thanks!

(1) MCAT > 520 (it seems like half this board has MCAT's higher?)
(2) First author publication, Sole First Author publication, 2nd author publication
(3) Publication in Nature / Science / etc.
(4) Every single letter of recommendation being the best of the best ('this student is the greatest thing since sliced bread'- type) - in general, what would be considered a very competitive 'letter of recommendation' strength profile (e.g. with 6 letters total) for a candidate to these schools?
(5) Harmful letter of recommendation
(6) Extremely helpful, neutral, harmful personal statement
(7) Average length (both time / duration of clinical volunteering); shadowing hours
(8) Club leadership

Based upon comments by successful SDNers in this type of venue, Really Top candidates have 100s, even thousands of hours of clinical and/or non-clinical experiences. The latter frequently involved service to other less fortunate than themselves. Being involved in public policy, especially relating to health care, seems to pop up.

Harmful LORs are lethal everywhere.
MCAT > 516

 

[lalalooloo]

To echo the emphasis on personal statement - spend a lot of time on this! As well as your activities mini-essays. A good MCAT/GPA will get you looked at, but you want the admissions committee to feel like they know you, understand you. I spent several months reflecting on how my experiences have shaped me and my ambitions and playing around with my personal statement.

I had a great application but nothing particularly unique - very strong research, very strong LizzyM, below average shadowing / clinical hours, average community service hours. I was accepted to six T10s including 3 T5s. About half my interviewers mentioned my personal statement and more specifically, my breadth of meaningful experience (although I didn't have an impressive number of community service hours, they were poignant experiences that I gave nearly equal weight to my research in my PS). It's all about humanizing yourself in a very numbers-oriented process.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

By "very strong research": first-author papers? I gather that you did not have a paper in a journal like Nature, Science, or Cell. Hospice volunteering?

 

[LukaDoncicLuk]

Bro cmon. No undergrad is going to have a FIRST AUTHOR in any of those journals.

This forum sometimes.

 

[dr_kateb]

Bro cmon. No undergrad is going to have a FIRST AUTHOR in any of those journals.

This forum sometimes.

It’s really just Walter. I haven’t seen anyone else have such an obsession with those journals.

 

[lalalooloo]

By "very strong research": first-author papers? I gather that you did not have a paper in a journal like Nature, Science, or Cell. Hospice volunteering?

Wow no! Maybe I should've omitted the 'very' for SDN...

 

[capriccio]

Wow no! Maybe I should've omitted the 'very' for SDN...

I don't think anyone other than Walter would've interpreted your statement as meaning you had a first author in Nature lol.

 

[TempuraOreos]

I don't think anyone other than Walter would've interpreted your statement as meaning you had a first author in Nature lol.

Lol right. I have pretty strong research too but guess it's meaningless since the pub my PI got wasn't in Cell, Nature, etc. nor was I first author.

 

[Walter Raleigh]

I wonder if any top-10 schools have had British knighthood recipients or Tour de France winners...

 

[LukaDoncicLuk]

Dang I just got trolled