How competitive is competitive?

[SJB]

I hear all these people saying that anesthesiology is becoming more and more competitive, but what does this mean? What does it take to match one of the top programs (USMLE scores, AOA, research) ?

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[powermd]

Originally posted by SJB
I hear all these people saying that anesthesiology is becoming more and more competitive, but what does this mean? What does it take to match one of the top programs (USMLE scores, AOA, research) ?

It's probably useful to think of applying to residencies in terms of applying to medical school.

FP = Caribbean schools
Psychiatry, avg peds/int med = DO schools
Anesthesia, neurology, obgyn = Low tier med schools
Surgery, EM, great peds/int med = Mid tier med schools
Ortho, rad, derm, plastics = Harvard, JHU, etc.

Anesthesia is more competitive than it was in the past, which is to say it used to be down where FP and psych is now. Now it's more competitive, but not anywhere in the league of the ortho, radiology, derm, ent, plastics, etc. You can match at the top programs in anesthesia without AOA and 230+ boards. Of course it helps, but it's not necessary.

 

[OldManDave]

I would certainly take these elitist comments with a grain of salt...

 

[CaliGirlDO]

I will try not to rant and rave, despite how irritating Powermd's comments were...

But I will say that I was a member of my school's admissions committee and was privy to the complete files and statistics of incoming medical students. I can say after interviewing many applicants personally, there were plenty of people who applied just because they thought that DO schools were a safe backup to their MD applications. BIG MISCONCEPTION!

Each year's classes average GPAs and MCAT scores were just as competitive as most MD medical schools. In fact, I have many classmates that declined their acceptances to MD schools and chose to come to a DO school. Their intentions are not for debate in this forum. The only difference I could see in our acceptance policies is that DO schools are more willing to look at people who are "non-traditional" applicants.

However, please be advised that, despite popular belief, it is NOT any easier to get into DO school than an MD school.

 

[R U SED 8]

Originally posted by powermd
It's probably useful to think of applying to residencies in terms of applying to medical school.

FP = Caribbean schools
Psychiatry, avg peds/int med = DO schools
Anesthesia, neurology, obgyn = Low tier med schools
Surgery, EM, great peds/int med = Mid tier med schools
Ortho, rad, derm, plastics = Harvard, JHU, etc.

perhaps powertripmd would be a more appropriate user ID?

 

[powermd]

Originally posted by CaliGirlDO
I will try not to rant and rave, despite how irritating Powermd's comments were...

But I will say that I was a member of my school's admissions committee and was privy to the complete files and statistics of incoming medical students. I can say after interviewing many applicants personally, there were plenty of people who applied just because they thought that DO schools were a safe backup to their MD applications. BIG MISCONCEPTION!

Each year's classes average GPAs and MCAT scores were just as competitive as most MD medical schools. In fact, I have many classmates that declined their acceptances to MD schools and chose to come to a DO school. Their intentions are not for debate in this forum. The only difference I could see in our acceptance policies is that DO schools are more willing to look at people who are "non-traditional" applicants.

However, please be advised that, despite popular belief, it is NOT any easier to get into DO school than an MD school.

I didn't set out to offend anyone, but it seems I jabbed a few nerves. My little chart was just a rough attempt to frame the competitiveness of anesthesia in the light of common stereotypes that most people seem to accept. If you don't accept them, fine. I never meant to claim they were the absolute truth.

As far as DO schools are concerned, take a look at the applicant profiles at mdapplicants.com (or whatever it is..) and you'll see there's a considerable difference in GPA/MCATs between DO and MD schools. Sure, it's not scientific, but neither is your anecdote. The only assertion I intended to make was that DO schools are less competitive than MD schools in terms of GPA/MCAT. I really have no idea how they differ in competitiveness with respect to other variables.

To the person who mocked my handle "powermd", this is actually a domain that I registered a few years ago for future use in business, I use it as a handle now because I think it sounds cool, and it's easy to type.

 

[R U SED 8]

Originally posted by powermd
The only assertion I intended to make was that DO schools are less competitive than MD schools in terms of GPA/MCAT. I really have no idea how they differ in competitiveness with respect to other variables.

i tried really hard not to stir the pot...but i couldn't sit still.....

with all due respect, if you (as an M3) have no idea about variables other than GPA/MCATs, how can you make the bold claim that DO Schools = Psych, avg peds/int med??? i'm sure that OldManDave, CaliGirl, myself, and just about every other DO student could tell you about numerous DO grads that have gone on to pursue residencies at some of the best institutions in the country!! (Yes...even for fields other than PSYCH!!)

although your intention may not have been to offend, please realize that such statements propagate misconceptions and only widen the arbitrary gap between MDs and DOs.

 

[prominence]

why do DO students have such a chip on their shoulders? they seem like they r always need to prove that they equal in competence as MDs... powermd was just making a generalization. obviously, everyone knows DO students have placed in fields other than peds, psych, and int med.

heres something i was wondering: how do DOs use their manipulative training in fields like anesthesiology, radiology, and ophthamalology?

 

[powermd]

Originally posted by R U SED 8
i tried really hard not to stir the pot...but i couldn't sit still.....

with all due respect, if you (as an M3) have no idea about variables other than GPA/MCATs, how can you make the bold claim that DO Schools = Psych, avg peds/int med??? i'm sure that OldManDave, CaliGirl, myself, and just about every other DO student could tell you about numerous DO grads that have gone on to pursue residencies at some of the best institutions in the country!! (Yes...even for fields other than PSYCH!!)

although your intention may not have been to offend, please realize that such statements propagate misconceptions and only widen the arbitrary gap between MDs and DOs.

Ahhh... now I understand what's going on here. I think you are over-reacting a bit. Of course DO grads can go on to outstanding careers just like their MD counterparts. That wasn't the point of my analogy. The analogy was comparing competitiveness of various residencies to competitiveness in entrance to Caribbean schools, DO schools, low/mid/high tier med schools. See? I never made any assertion about the quality of DO students or their career prospects. Besides, this was just a rough and dirty generalization. What misconception are you referring to? MDs/DOs tend to differ in terms of undergraduate GPA/MCATs. Is this really in dispute?

"prominence" made a comment about DOs seeming to have a chip on their shoulder. I haven't seen this so much in the DO students I work with. However, the DO interns/residents that I work with seem to act like they have something to prove. All of the students on my current rotation have commented on it, and it's annoying.

Wasn't the point of this thread the competitiveness of anesthesia residency today? Maybe instead of getting all bent out of shape about one line in my post, you could contribute something to the discussion topic.

 

[R U SED 8]

Originally posted by prominence
why do DO students have such a chip on their shoulders? they seem like they r always need to prove that they equal in competence as MDs... powermd was just making a generalization. obviously, everyone knows DO students have placed in fields other than peds, psych, and int med.

heres something i was wondering: how do DOs use their manipulative training in fields like anesthesiology, radiology, and ophthamalology?

prominence,

i'm sorry you feel that DO students have "such a chip on their shoulders". in my opinion, i'm just defending my own.

although you saw powermd's statement as a generalization....obviously others did take some offense to it, and i responded. whether or not he actually intended to put down DOs is a different issue; my point was that a "regular joe" might stumble across this site, read his post, and infer that all DOs are beneath the level of even the worst MDs! and as far as "everyone knows"....you'd be really surprised how many ignorant people I have come across in the medical field that know little to nothing about osteopathy and trash the profession to others. i'm not at all saying this was the intent of powermd's post.....just wanted to defend my side...that's all (no chip on my shoulder)!

as far as DOs using manipulative training in the fields you mentioned, i can only speak about gas. there are several DOs i know that have gone on to pursue pain fellowships that incorporate OMT into the treatment regimen. the manipulative techniques actually decrease the required dose and duration of narcotics prescriptions. just ask any patient that has ever seen a DO pain doc and you might be pleasantly surprised!

 

[Carbuncle]

There are plenty of unqualified students in allopathic schools that have gained admittance through dubious means, but it does seem that osteopathic schools have less strenuous guidelines for admission. I can't say whether it's the curriculum or what, but there seems to be a large gap in performance on the step I between allopathic and osteopathic schools (93% and 77% pass rates, respectively). I am naive to the DO curriculum, and I don't know if that is a fair measure of program strength?? Please enlighten me.

 

[Skylizard]

I don't know about the DO/MD thing. I am an MD from a university program. I can however say that that bouncing titty thing of R U SED 8 is pretty distracting to say the least!

 

[Foxxy Cleopatra]

I don't know about the DO/MD thing. I am an MD from a university program. I can however say that that bouncing titty thing of R U SED 8 is pretty distracting to say the least!

LOL- my monitor was messed up for the last few weeks (I just got a new computer) so I finally saw that avatar clearly for the first time- I should have known it wasn't of a cartoon woman getting the Heimlich!

To the OP, seems like the most competitive programs require high scores (>230), AOA, strong LOR's, however, it shouldn't be that difficult just to match somewhere.

 

[profunda]

It is fact that more people (like my friends) get accepted to DO and not MD medical schools, and less people vice versa. So DO is less competitive to enter than MD medical schools. That is fact. Now, how competent the students are/become during med school might be a different story, but it is fact DO is less competitive in terms of admissions on average.

 

[me454555]

Who cares how competitive it is to get into, all that matter is how good you are when you come out.

 

[womansurg]

Originally posted by me454555
Who cares how competitive it is to get into

Well, someone trying to get in, for example ...

I see the parallel that poweremd was trying to make - fair enough, I suppose. The guy with the second highest USMLE score in my class, as well as near universal clinical honors, went into FP, however. I know several surgeons, including myself, who entertained the idea of FP very seriously before locking into surgery. Most of these folks has scores/grades to do whatever they liked, pretty much. So, generalizations sometimes help, but often aren't very accurate.

 

[soon2bdoc2003]

Hey I went to the 'harvard of the carribean'.. we even had a grad on the cast of ER... how many DO's are there in the cast of ER, Scrubs, or general hospital.. now in accordance with my scientific evaluation system please re-organize your 'scale'. Thank you.

 

[DRNickiTay]

ER also featured a DO a few seasons ago!

 

[powermd]

Originally posted by soon2bdoc2003
Hey I went to the 'harvard of the carribean'.. we even had a grad on the cast of ER... how many DO's are there in the cast of ER, Scrubs, or general hospital.. now in accordance with my scientific evaluation system please re-organize your 'scale'. Thank you.

My "scale" was just a rough attempt to equate competitiveness for residencies to something more familiar- competition for medical school. Carribean schools are not very competitive compared to US MD/DO schools. Similarly, family practice, and psychiatry are not very competitive compared to most other specialties.

What part of this doesn't make sense to you?

In no way did my "scale" comment on the quality of physicians trained at Carribean schools, or their success at obtaining residencies.

 

[residentphysici]

I am not sure why this question ended up with a turn for the worse, but here is my answer.

In 1998 before I graduated, it was not uncommon for students to avoid interviewing or applying for any residency, because they knew they could scramble into a top 20 anesthesiology program. When I matched in 1999, the top 10 programs were matching, but the others were still picking up residents from the scramble.

Now, at least at Johns Hopkins, the students they interviewed were all AOA. I have heard the same at many other top programs. So, the competitiveness means that you will probably match into the program of your own standing. If you are a top 10% student, you will probably be able to match into a traditional top 10 program and so forth. I have to say that I would recommend that you apply to the program of your choice whether you are a DO, MD, or somewhere in the bottom of your class. You are no longer a top student your first day of residency. You are just a resident. And your location of residency should depend on the job you intend to have more than just the prestige.

 

[profunda]

I dont understand. At my school's matchlist, it appears as though the "average" med student gets in top prestigious programs of average competitiveness (such as ucla-harbor for ob/gyn or peds). By average I mean, there are people who go to mass gen or hopkins for orthopeds, there are also people who go to kaiser for peds, and then a majority doing something in above parenthesis (like ucla). It doesnt seem like you need AOA to even get into programs such as hopkins or ucsf gas, let alone interviews. Am I missing something here? How come the average med student at my school are getting these places, but I mean it's not like my school is even that prestigious.

Originally posted by residentphysici
I am not sure why this question ended up with a turn for the worse, but here is my answer.

In 1998 before I graduated, it was not uncommon for students to avoid interviewing or applying for any residency, because they knew they could scramble into a top 20 anesthesiology program. When I matched in 1999, the top 10 programs were matching, but the others were still picking up residents from the scramble.

Now, at least at Johns Hopkins, the students they interviewed were all AOA. I have heard the same at many other top programs. So, the competitiveness means that you will probably match into the program of your own standing. If you are a top 10% student, you will probably be able to match into a traditional top 10 program and so forth. I have to say that I would recommend that you apply to the program of your choice whether you are a DO, MD, or somewhere in the bottom of your class. You are no longer a top student your first day of residency. You are just a resident. And your location of residency should depend on the job you intend to have more than just the prestige.

 

[IN2BATE]

This is getting silly. I think powertrip should have been a little more careful, and not stereotype. For example, in NY DO and MD get the same damn license to practice medicine..........the only weird thing is they dont have a DO license plate, so they give you MD plates if you want! I know DO and IMG students that all placed pretty well this year in anesthesia. Out of 8 people in my school going for anesthesia, seven got MD spots they were happy with and only one took a DO program b/c he used to work at that particular hospital.

Anyway.......keep the peace. A word of advice to future applicants though is get your applications out early........I saw this help some weaker students get more interviews or interviews that some better students who applied later did not do to cutoffs.

I will admit one thing.........the DO AOA is not the same thing as MD AOA........so if you are a DO applicant on ERAS dont be a jackass and say your AOA!

LSG D.O.
NSU-COM 2003
PGY1 (future gas person)

 

[Sevo]

Originally posted by residentphysici
I And your location of residency should depend on the job you intend to have more than just the prestige.

Almost all programs out there will train a resident to be a competent, safe anesthesiologist.

What really distinguishes a program from others now is a combination of geographical desirability (e.g. the West coast), academic prestige (if you choose to go the academic route), and job influence.

The resident graduating from Mass General can go anywhere she wants when she fnishes training. It's not just the MGH name, either. MGH has one of the strongest alumni associations out there, with contacts in every major anesthesia group in the country. Even the worse slob that walks out of their program won't have a problem securing a decent job when he leaves.

The poor guy coming out of Cook County just doesn't have the same options. Although he may be light years better than the MGH resident after four years of daily trials by fire (you need to be superhuman to survive the anesthesia residency there), his options are fairly limited. The current department isn't exactly the strongest in the city, much less nationally known, and from what the residents told me on my visit there, their options were essentially limited to lesser suburban private practice slots on graduation -- although the pay sounded pretty good.

 

[Tenesma]

i agree with sevo... but i have to throw my 2 cents in as an MGHer... Anesthesia residency is 3 years after your prelim year... so yeah, if they have to go through 4 years of anesthesia at cook county then they should be good by the time they come out

 

[do2md]

Not sure why the DO's are so upset... I actually would have ranked the caribbean schools ahead of them. They should be blushing.

 

[IN2BATE]

UGh.................................everone was getting along, and then there has to be one in the group.................................

you know, that do2md anal sphincter that has to go and disrespect the DO students.

I feel with this personality profile he would be more fit for surgery, where you are expected to be a smuck and not respect people.

IN2BATE


"In God we trust; in all others we virus scan!"

 

[R U SED 8]

Originally posted by do2md
Not sure why the DO's are so upset... I actually would have ranked the caribbean schools ahead of them. They should be blushing.

DO2MD,

Thanks for the insight! As a recent DO graduate I am very grateful that there are so many wonderful people like you out there to show me the light and set me straight! BTW would you mind sharing where you went to school and/or where you are doing residency? I know of a local KKK that would probably love to recruit you!

Thanks!

 

[apma77]

your preaching to the choir,,this subject has been beaten over n over again in these forums so give it a rest please!

 

[juddson]

I'm no doc. What is "AOA"? What is "scramble"? How can you get into a residency without an interview?

Judd

 

[hndrx1a]

gas man, all i can say is : wow!!

 

[gregfoti]

I am a Ms-IV from AUC (Caribbean School). I must say all of you people ranting and raving about this and about that and most of you do not even know what you are talking about. There is a lot or hear say and snobby remarks going on.

I think the facts must be stated.

1) Step 1 is probably the most important aspect one's application. The higher the scorer...the better chances one has. But there have been many instances when a student with a lower board score is accepted over a higher score because of a better overall application and is more well rounded who will work well with others rather than riding on past merits like attending a US MD school.

2) There are students from "top notch" MD schools, DO schools and caribbbean schools at the most competitive spots. So, never lose hope and never beleive the rumors because most of them are conjured up from half truths.

3)Anesthesia has become a lot more popular over the last few years and therefore will naturally make it more competitive.

4)If you are from a DO or caribbean school you will, without exception, encounter jerks and snobs from US MD schools. Just brush them off like any other jerk you encounter and keep on working hard because like the previous message said, once the first day of residency begins you and that jerk snob are even game...so bring it on!

Basically, do not listen to "know it alls" and snobs because the truth is they have no clue just like you have no clue. Work hard and follow the application procedure the best you can and after this....
There have been many students with many different combinations of credentials spanning the whole range who are accepted into very fine programs.

The fact is, many times there is no rhyme or reason...you never know...so work work work and someday you will be that snobs chief because usually that snob has no people skills anyway.

Good luck to all!...and to all you snobs out there, I will see ya on the other side where the name of your school will work for you as well as that cheap toilet paper works in college dorms..bring it on!!!
CARPE DIEM

 

[gregfoti]

P.S. Congratulationa Gas Man! I hope and am striving to be there someday.