How did you guys take the MCAT or GRE without having an id (undocument)

[Mad Jack]

---

Members don't see this ad.

Every altruistic snowflake should have to work full time as a tech in an inner city ED for a year. With the amount of system abuse you see down there, you'll change your tune, I promise you. You see just how many people don't want to get better, because that means they'll lose their freebies. The people that don't want to stop having kids because more kids=more money. The regular drunks on Medicaid that have literally more ED visits than there are days in the year which cost the taxpayers damn near a half million dollars every year, but refuse any sort of services to deal with their alcoholism because they'd rather chill on a stretcher eating turkey sandwiches 8 hours a day and getting drunk the other 16 than become a functional member of society. I could go on and on for pages with stories of the **** I saw without even scratching what came to light once I ended up with a career on the post-admit side of things.

 

[oldstock]

Lol at premeds being all altruistic and loving. That tune will change over time unfortunately

yeah esp they have to start to pay for someone other than themselves !! 🙂

 

[Mad Jack]

Oh I thought society was built on freebies and handouts. According to Obama, everything you have accomplished in your life was given to you. All the hard workers who worked for every dime they have- apparently it was given to you. Obama only says that because everything was handed to him. That's his way of saying capitalism is an evil enterprise.

Let's not wrestle with the "you didn't build that" quote. He was referencing infrastructure and was technically correct. People may build businesses, but without he infrastructure provided by government, many would be unable to function. But this is a perfect example of why we can't be handing out all this free money. Our taxes should be going to roads, bridges, telecom networks, and the like, which provide things necessary for business and society to thrive, rather than diverting them to entitlements and handouts.

 

[mrh125]

I took it by not being undocumented.

 

[DermViser]

Lol at premeds being all altruistic and loving. That tune will change over time unfortunately

Yup, the Mother Theresa complex in premeds disappear after MS-3 if not sooner. Funny how it's no longer a "calling" then.

 

[mrh125]

The correct term anywhere in the world is basically "illegal" immigrant, as in, they immigrated illegally. They didn't immigrate "undocumentedly." That's like going through customs with some banned fruit and saying, "no fruit is illegal! This is just undocumented fruit!" "Undocumented" is the liberal-PC term that was coined (only in America do things seem to get branded this way) to make people feel as if they don't live in a constant state of breaking the law. Which they do.

I'm all for immigration reform, but I'm tired of liberal PC BS. Call it what it is, enough of this babby talk.

exactly. also notice how news sites change "anti-illegal immigration protests" to "anti-immigration protests". it's so stupid. nobody's against immigration, illegal immigration on the other hand is a totally diff matter.

 

[DermViser]

Oh brother, its painful how insecure some of you are about these matters that you have come in and completely drown a thread with incoherent, immature ad hominem and rambling. It's been nice chatting, if anyone is willing to have an actual discussion on this matter then I'll be happy to join in, but for now this thread has turned into a conservative circlej***.

Being pre-med doesn't invalidate our opinions or principles. If you have a problem with pre-meds, then pre-allo is probably not the best place to hang out is it?

There's nothing conservative about the way math works and the way revenue is raised - through taxation. Being a premed (a 20 yr old with no life experience) doesn't invalidate your opinions/principles, but it does show how much credence they should be given - which is close to none.

 

[RJGOP]

Let's not wrestle with the "you didn't build that" quote. He was referencing infrastructure and was technically correct. People may build businesses, but without he infrastructure provided by government, many would be unable to function. But this is a perfect example of why we can't be handing out all this free money. Our taxes should be going to roads, bridges, telecom networks, and the like, which provide things necessary for business and society to thrive, rather than diverting them to entitlements and handouts.

he clearly says if you have a business, you didn't build it. Now obviously this great country gave you the opportunity to build a business, but it wasn't handed to you- someone didn't do it for you.

 

[mrh125]

he clearly says if you have a business, you didn't build it. Now obviously this great country gave you the opportunity to build a business, but it wasn't handed to you- someone didn't do it for you.

i really can't wait until this dude is out of office. he should go build himself a business outside of the whitehouse and leave.

 

[DermViser]

exactly. also notice how news sites change "anti-illegal immigration protests" to "anti-immigration protests". it's so stupid. nobody's against immigration, illegal immigration on the other hand is a totally diff matter.

 

[Lawpy]

Being pre-med doesn't invalidate our opinions or principles. If you have a problem with pre-meds, then pre-allo is probably not the best place to hang out is it?

Ooh, getting feisty.

The problem is, your views and that of the majority of premeds are conforming to this fake image of being all altruistic. The more experienced premeds and higher ups (and those who experienced what the real world is like) can see through this illusion and are dissuading you from following there.

yeah esp they have to start to pay for someone other than themselves !! 🙂

Yup.

 

[RJGOP]

View attachment 183126

Shocker.

 

[mrh125]

Ooh, getting feisty.

The problem is, your views and that of the majority of premeds are conforming to this fake image of being all altruistic. The more experienced premeds and higher ups (and those who experienced what the real world is like) can see through this illusion and are dissuading you from following there.



Yup.

the premed image of being altruistic is such a joke it's hard to take it seriously in the first place. if you want to see how altruistic premeds really are go into ochem class with them and see their thrilling compassionate attitudes where they want everyone to succeed....yea right. the altruistic attitude is just a tactic to goad admissions into giving them what they want. I'd say the altruistic attitude of premeds dies in the third year of MS but that would imply that it existed in the first place.

 

[Lawpy]

the premed image of being altruistic is such a joke it's hard to take it seriously in the first place. if you want to see how altruistic premeds really are go into ochem class with them and see their thrilling compassionate attitudes where they want everyone to succeed....yea right. the altruistic attitude is just a tactic to goad admissions into giving them what they want. I'd say the altruistic attitude of premeds dies in the third year of MS but that would imply that it existed in the first place.

It's just a façade. An irritating one too. This is why I agree with @Planes2Doc Zero to Mother Theresa applicants idea.

That's why I always feel allo and general residents forums (and even pre-osteo - the nightmare of preallo lol 😉) are a very safe place to hang out and speak reasonably and realistically.

 

[Greenberg702]

Not an excuse, but this reason might be why many people don't try to attempt to go through legal means to immigrate to this company. If it was easy to do, everybody would do it.

I'm torn because all those people who claim their relatives immigrated legally to the US were primarily during a time when it was much simpler and easier to immigrate to the US. Now the flow is down to a trickle for legal immigrants, but the demand is still just as high. OTOH, when you examine how other countries handle their immigration policies, we look like kindly grandparents in comparison.

It's difficult to do because many people want to immigrate here. There was a recent documentary on CNN about illegal immigration and people were complaining that the wait times for the Philippines is 20 years (in an attempt to justify flying in illegally from there). Why? Because many people want to come. Long wait times/difficulty is not a justification for breaking the rules. That's like sending med schools a fake transcript and MCAT scores while saying, you know there are way too many people who want to do it and are willing to work hard for it/wait. I'm only looking for a better life as a doctor.

 

[Greenberg702]

What supporters of current policies have failed to respond to is the question of where does amnesty end? I guarantee you there are billions of people who would come here if they had the chance. Hundreds of millions of people would send their kids here if they could. Would you let each and every one of these people in? If your answer to this question is no, then you could not possibly support amnesty for everybody already here because then even more people would send their kids here. CNN attributed the recent influx in border crossings due to rumors in Latin American countries that the US had changed immigration laws. What would happen if you actually changed the law? You would be legalizing millions of people every decade. If you support this, then you might as well take down the borders and let anybody in.

 

[kyamh]

What supporters of current policies have failed to respond to is the question of where does amnesty end? I guarantee you there are billions of people who would come here if they had the chance. Hundreds of millions of people would send their kids here if they could. Would you let each and every one of these people in? If your answer to this question is no, then you could not possibly support amnesty for everybody already here because then even more people would send their kids here. CNN attributed the recent influx in border crossings due to rumors in Latin American countries that the US had changed immigration laws. What would happen if you actually changed the law? You would be legalizing millions of people every decade. If you support this, then you might as well take down the borders and let anybody in.

Well, there is an easy way around this. You set a deadline for applying/identifying yourself as an illegal immigrant seeking a legal path so people can't come out of the woodwork years later claiming to have been here all along. There will be an influx of immigrants when the law passes, but only for as long as the identification window is open. After the 6/12 months or whatever to identify yourself on a website/at your local social security office/other public office the window can close and only those people who admitted to their illegal status would proceed with the naturalization process.

Policies and laws need consistency to work. If you say you're going to stop allowing illegal immigrants to stick around, you stop. If you say you will only allow one parent to stay with a child born on US soil, you don't make exceptions. If you say you will only allow current illegal immigrants to gain citizenship, you deport everyone who comes afterwards. Effective immigration reform in other countries boils down to: enforcement, regulated compassion and consistency.

 

[Greenberg702]

Well, there is an easy way around this. You set a deadline for applying/identifying yourself as an illegal immigrant seeking a legal path so people can't come out of the woodwork years later claiming to have been here all along. There will be an influx of immigrants when the law passes, but only for as long as the identification window is open. After the 6/12 months or whatever to identify yourself on a website/at your local social security office/other public office the window can close and only those people who admitted to their illegal status would proceed with the naturalization process.

Policies and laws need consistency to work. If you say you're going to stop allowing illegal immigrants to stick around, you stop. If you say you will only allow one parent to stay with a child born on US soil, you don't make exceptions. If you say you will only allow current illegal immigrants to gain citizenship, you deport everyone who comes afterwards. Effective immigration reform in other countries boils down to: enforcement, regulated compassion and consistency.

In a perfect world, that could work (although I'd still oppose that because of the message that policy would send to the millions waiting to come here legally). However, I guarantee you that illegal immigration would skyrocket and you would have people clamoring for another "amnesty window" 10 years down the road. I understand that many people did not choose to come here and are facing hardship, but there are billions of people on this planet who face hardship and I don't believe the line can be clearly drawn. Would these people support going to Africa to pick up starving children (who don't even have the option of jumping the fence?) With that kind of mindset, America would be quickly overrun.

 

[kyamh]

In a perfect world, that could work (although I'd still oppose that because of the message that policy would send to the millions waiting to come here legally). However, I guarantee you that illegal immigration would skyrocket and you would have people clamoring for another "amnesty window" 10 years down the road. I understand that many people did not choose to come here and are facing hardship, but there are billions of people on this planet who face hardship and I don't believe the line can be clearly drawn. Would these people support going to Africa to pick up starving children (who don't even have the option of jumping the fence?) With that kind of mindset, America would be quickly overrun.

This is so weird...I'm usually on your side of this debate 😉

The difference between Latin America and Africa is that it is more reasonable for America/ns to feel more camaraderie with a neighboring country. We are hit by the same storms, parts of us deal with the same natural parasites and invasive species, we share a border. In the same way that we as a society place a high value on family (even extended family who is only important to you via blood relations) we also place a high value on community, neighbors, etc. South America and Canada are our neighbors and we, arguably "owe" them more consideration and aid than other nations.

Again...I can't continue to defend something I have a hard time believing. I see your concerns and they are definitely true. What bothers me is that these worries and thoughts about what may happen prevent people in power from actually going through and making decisions to try and help the situation. Something has to happen. It could be a poor decision, whatever that decision is, but at least we would be moving in some sort of direction as a country on this issue.

 

[Greenberg702]

This is so weird...I'm usually on your side of this debate 😉

The difference between Latin America and Africa is that it is more reasonable for America/ns to feel more camaraderie with a neighboring country. We are hit by the same storms, parts of us deal with the same natural parasites and invasive species, we share a border. In the same way that we as a society place a high value on family (even extended family who is only important to you via blood relations) we also place a high value on community, neighbors, etc. South America and Canada are our neighbors and we, arguably "owe" them more consideration and aid than other nations.

Again...I can't continue to defend something I have a hard time believing. I see your concerns and they are definitely true. What bothers me is that these worries and thoughts about what may happen prevent people in power from actually going through and making decisions to try and help the situation. Something has to happen. It could be a poor decision, whatever that decision is, but at least we would be moving in some sort of direction as a country on this issue.

I agree with your last point haha. Those "connections" are tenuous at best though. In terms of government/culture/value of democracy, freedom, and civilized life I actually believe we're most similar to western Europe (i.e the first world).

 

[Fedaykin]

it's so stupid. nobody's against immigration

I'm going to disagree with this.

 

[Fedaykin]

I am scratching my head here as I am struggling to figure out where the effing you got that hint of racism from that post.

You shouldn't be.

 

[oldstock]

i really can't wait until this dude is out of office. he should go build himself a business outside of the whitehouse and leave.

He has actually built some business. The only business he built is the mountain of debts that we will never pay off !! 🙂

 

[mrh125]

He has actually built some business. The only business he built is the mountain of debts that we will never pay off !! 🙂

Seriously. Also, this thread depresses the hell out of me. Hailing someone who gamed the system as a hero due to outdated broken laws is disgusting. Teaching people that they can game the system, cheat, and end up at Harvard and UCSF is just wrong on every level, especially given how hard the rest of us work to not get anywhere near that level, is ****ed up, bottom line.

 

[ttothemac]

 

[Greenberg702]

Seriously. Also, this thread depresses the hell out of me. Hailing someone who gamed the system as a hero due to outdated broken laws is disgusting. Teaching people that they can game the system, cheat, and end up at Harvard and UCSF is just wrong on every level, especially given how hard the rest of us work to not get anywhere near that level, is ****** up, bottom line.

I agree with most of what you said but like other people mentioned, he became a citizen before he got his MD and before he matched neurosurgery at UCSF. He actually did go through the steps necessary to become legal (although these were different in the Reagan era).

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

This thread is really lacking the illegal perspective. So I'll happily fill that void. I've been in this country since Ronald Reagan's 1st term. I can't even remember my home country and my Spanish is far from native at this point. I hate my parents for making this decision. We were upper-middle class in South America and there was absolutely no need for them to overstay their visa. But irresponsible people do irresponsible things and they decided to stay... It's actually quite ironic. Not everyone in the 3rd World has it rough. And as I mentioned earlier, my family was doing just fine (although not wealthy). But upon overstaying our visa, the U.S. became a 3rd World country for us... Not all illegal or undocumented ppl are in the same category. Imagine if your parents did what mine did. After graduating HS with honors, would you pack up and self-deport to a foreign land? Would you do it after graduating from college with honors? After volunteering in your community and donating your precious O- blood countless times?! After filing taxes every single year?! And you know what, if the government wants to tax me extra for every adult year that I've spent in this country, I'd be all for it. I mean seriously, some of my best friends are border state Republicans and they support Dreamers like me (who had no choice in this matter). You don't punish ppl for their parents' mistakes. At one point, Republicans such as John McCain, Sam Brownback, Orrin Hatch and even Trent Lott supported ppl like me. In fact, the Dream Act was introduced in the Senate last decade by Orrin Hatch-true compassionate conservatism.

And please stop with this "OMG it's not our problem crap." It just demonstrates your ignorance of American history. I don't believe in open borders. And currently, I'm in the back of the line in a process myself. But don't act like the US has been all innocent in foreign affairs. Think about the dictators this country has supported all over the world. The strongmen in Latin America. The Shah in Iran. Saddam Hussein in the 1980's. In fact, the US was fully aware he was using chemical weapons against Iran. The Vietnam War. Bombing Cambodia to death and sparking the Khmer Rouge. Gulf War 2, which has led to sectarian violence and countless refugees (speaking of illegals). The problem of illegal immigration (and I recognize it's a problem) pales in comparison to the atrocities the US has been complicit in. Imagine if you were a farmer in Southeast Asia and had to watch US bombs decimate your home and country. That is actually like living the Apocalypse- far worse than people crossing the Southern border... And no, I do not hate this country, but I'm fully aware of its flawed history and how it's wrecked the lives of countless others across the world...

Obviously, some (not all) illegals (undocumented ppl- whichever you prefer) who are not breaking the law (in other ways) should be given a pathway to legalization (but within reasonable limits). I'm ok with fines and enhanced border security is absolutely necessary. And I understand it's frustrating... It frustrates me...

And I sincerely hope that all of you current and future doctors treat everyone with the human dignity and decency they deserve...

I'm done. You will not hear from me about this issue again...

 

[RJGOP]

This thread is really lacking the illegal perspective. So I'll happily fill that void. I've been in this country since Ronald Reagan's 1st term. I can't even remember my home country and my Spanish is far from native at this point. I hate my parents for making this decision. We were upper-middle class in South America and there was absolutely no need for them to overstay their visa. But irresponsible people do irresponsible things and they decided to stay... It's actually quite ironic. Not everyone in the 3rd World has it rough. And as I mentioned earlier, my family was doing just fine (although not wealthy). But upon overstaying our visa, the U.S. became a 3rd World country for us... Not all illegal or undocumented ppl are in the same category. Imagine if your parents did what mine did. After graduating HS with honors, would you pack up and self-deport to a foreign land? Would you do it after graduating from college with honors? After volunteering in your community and donating your precious O- blood countless times?! After filing taxes every single year?! And you know what, if the government wants to tax me extra for every adult year that I've spent in this country, I'd be all for it. I mean seriously, some of my best friends are border state Republicans and they support Dreamers like me (who had no choice in this matter). You don't punish ppl for their parents' mistakes. At one point, Republicans such as John McCain, Sam Brownback, Orrin Hatch and even Trent Lott supported ppl like me. In fact, the Dream Act was introduced in the Senate last decade by Orrin Hatch-true compassionate conservatism.

And please stop with this "OMG it's not our problem crap." It just demonstrates your ignorance of American history. I don't believe in open borders. And currently, I'm in the back of the line in a process myself. But don't act like the US has been all innocent in foreign affairs. Think about the dictators this country has supported all over the world. The strongmen in Latin America. The Shah in Iran. Saddam Hussein in the 1980's. In fact, the US was fully aware he was using chemical weapons against Iran. The Vietnam War. Bombing Cambodia to death and sparking the Khmer Rouge. Gulf War 2, which has led to sectarian violence and countless refugees (speaking of illegals). The problem of illegal immigration (and I recognize it's a problem) pales in comparison to the atrocities the US has been complicit in. Imagine if you were a farmer in Southeast Asia and had to watch US bombs decimate your home and country. That is like actually like living the Apocalypse- far worse than people crossing the Southern border... And no, I do not hate this country, but I'm fully aware of its flawed history and how it's wrecked the lives of countless others across the world...

Obviously, all illegals (undocumented ppl- whichever you prefer) who are not breaking the law (in other ways) should be given a pathway to some form of legalization (but within reasonable limits). I'm ok with fines and enhanced border security is absolutely necessary. And I understand it's frustrating... It frustrates me...

And I sincerely hope that all of you current and future doctors treat everyone with the human dignity and decency they deserve...

I'm done. You will not hear from me about this issue again...

I'm not necessarily against the children of illegal immigrants being granted a pathway to citizenship, and I think we were more or less discussing the adults who immigrated on their own accord. I do not believe the latter group should be excused, but I think children who were forced to illegally immigrate are a different story.

 

[lobo.solo]

You mad? lol. He obviously earned it or you think that any idiot can become a neurosurgeon attending at John Hopkins?

Seriously. Also, this thread depresses the hell out of me. Hailing someone who gamed the system as a hero due to outdated broken laws is disgusting. Teaching people that they can game the system, cheat, and end up at Harvard and UCSF is just wrong on every level, especially given how hard the rest of us work to not get anywhere near that level, is ****** up, bottom line.

 

[mrh125]

You mad? lol. He obviously earned it or you think that any idiot can become a neurosurgeon attending at John Hopkins?

I'm not questioning is academic qualifications or intelligence, so don't assume anything like that. It's more so the way he went through to get the education he needed in this country. There are legal channels that should be used, bottom line.

 

[lobo.solo]

+1
Americans in general aren't knowledgeable about world history and/or the impact of U.S foreign policy in other countries. Civil wars (which the U.S has been involved one way or another) in Latin America have produce mass immigration to the United States because usually the countries end up being destroyed in many aspects... It's a matter of survival.

This thread is really lacking the illegal perspective. So I'll happily fill that void. I've been in this country since Ronald Reagan's 1st term. I can't even remember my home country and my Spanish is far from native at this point. I hate my parents for making this decision. We were upper-middle class in South America and there was absolutely no need for them to overstay their visa. But irresponsible people do irresponsible things and they decided to stay... It's actually quite ironic. Not everyone in the 3rd World has it rough. And as I mentioned earlier, my family was doing just fine (although not wealthy). But upon overstaying our visa, the U.S. became a 3rd World country for us... Not all illegal or undocumented ppl are in the same category. Imagine if your parents did what mine did. After graduating HS with honors, would you pack up and self-deport to a foreign land? Would you do it after graduating from college with honors? After volunteering in your community and donating your precious O- blood countless times?! After filing taxes every single year?! And you know what, if the government wants to tax me extra for every adult year that I've spent in this country, I'd be all for it. I mean seriously, some of my best friends are border state Republicans and they support Dreamers like me (who had no choice in this matter). You don't punish ppl for their parents' mistakes. At one point, Republicans such as John McCain, Sam Brownback, Orrin Hatch and even Trent Lott supported ppl like me. In fact, the Dream Act was introduced in the Senate last decade by Orrin Hatch-true compassionate conservatism.

And please stop with this "OMG it's not our problem crap." It just demonstrates your ignorance of American history. I don't believe in open borders. And currently, I'm in the back of the line in a process myself. But don't act like the US has been all innocent in foreign affairs. Think about the dictators this country has supported all over the world. The strongmen in Latin America. The Shah in Iran. Saddam Hussein in the 1980's. In fact, the US was fully aware he was using chemical weapons against Iran. The Vietnam War. Bombing Cambodia to death and sparking the Khmer Rouge. Gulf War 2, which has led to sectarian violence and countless refugees (speaking of illegals). The problem of illegal immigration (and I recognize it's a problem) pales in comparison to the atrocities the US has been complicit in. Imagine if you were a farmer in Southeast Asia and had to watch US bombs decimate your home and country. That is actually like living the Apocalypse- far worse than people crossing the Southern border... And no, I do not hate this country, but I'm fully aware of its flawed history and how it's wrecked the lives of countless others across the world...

Obviously, all illegals (undocumented ppl- whichever you prefer) who are not breaking the law (in other ways) should be given a pathway to some form of legalization (but within reasonable limits). I'm ok with fines and enhanced border security is absolutely necessary. And I understand it's frustrating... It frustrates me...

And I sincerely hope that all of you current and future doctors treat everyone with the human dignity and decency they deserve...

I'm done. You will not hear from me about this issue again...

 

[lobo.solo]

What way?
You mean working in tomatoes and cotton fields--> start community college--> go to UC berkeley and graduate with honors-->get into Harvard--> match in neurosurgery at UCSF-->attending at John Hopkins and proliferate brain cancer researcher...and somewhere throughout that path fix his legal status in this country.

I can't believe how people can fault ambitious, brilliant and hard working people like him, who is advancing medicine everyday.... just because he came here illegally. It's mind boggling and sad...

I'm not questioning is academic qualifications or intelligence, so don't assume anything like that. It's more so the way he went through to get the education he needed in this country. There are legal channels that should be used, bottom line.

 

[Ismet]

Let's keep the discussion focused on the topic/question asked by the OP, and not a debate about immigration laws.

The pre-allo forum is for topics and questions related to the med school admissions process. This is not the appropriate place for off-topic political discussions.

 

[mrh125]

What way?
You mean working in tomatoes and cotton fields--> start community college--> go to UC berkeley and graduate with honors-->get into Harvard--> match in neurosurgery at UCSF-->attending at John Hopkins and proliferate brain cancer researcher...and somewhere throughout that path fix his legal status in this country.

I can't believe how people can fault ambitious, brilliant and hard working people like him, who is advancing medicine everyday.... just because he came here illegally. It's mind boggling and sad...

The way of going through legal immigration channels to gain naturalization or citizenship, instead of exploiting broken outdated laws. Our ancestors have all had to do that, why should he be an exception to the rules? There are ways the current system could be bettered for all, but that doesn't mean people should be rewarded for playing it.

 

[dododo121]

I honestly never understood why people who think they're so liberal are always for gay rights, affirmative action, etc and then when it comes to the issue of immigration suddenly become so ultra-conservative.

Anyways, OP, you can get a state issued ID, and I don't think you need to give a SSN number or any of that.

They are illegally present in a country- that means they are illegal. When they commit a crime, is that crime illegal, or is it just undocumented? They do in fact steal the jobs of "legal" citizens who would likely otherwise have, and are more deserving of those jobs. Plus, half of the illegal immigrants ( the "entitled" ones on welfare) pay no taxes. They also vote illegally or vote when they become citizens. So, illegal immigration is illegal, and the illegal immigrants hurt our country. If they wanted to work and come here legally, I would completely support them.

I'm definitely not completely for the naturalization of undocumented immigrants, but I hate the arguments that people use when arguing against illegal immigration. What jobs exactly do they take away from more deserving "legal" immigrants? Dish washing jobs? Cleaners? Housekeepers? Which legal deserving immigrants want to work in those industries? None of them. Illegals aren't taking jobs away from anyone. On the issue of taxes, do you realize that a some legal immigrants and citizens don't pay any taxes either and an even larger percentage don't pay part of their taxes? Sure, people who work for large firms or large businesses have to pay all of their taxes, but workers for small businesses and owners of small companies definitely don't pay all of their taxes or any at all.

Also, economists have pointed out that when immigrants go from a poorer country to a richer country, there is a net positive effect, even if these immigrants come illegally.

If there weren't illegal immigrants working these jobs and they still needed to be done, wages would increase until someone took them. You can't just go forever without a janitor, and eventually you'll cave and pay them 10 dollars or 12 dollars or whatever it takes an hour to make your office trash stop smelling like death. With illegal immigrants taking these jobs, that balance gets upset, leading to depressed wages and an artificially deflated employment market.

Even if you had to increase wages on this kind of scale, this leads to inflation and basically brings us back to where we once were. That doesn't solve anything.

 

[RJGOP]

I honestly never understood why people who think they're so liberal are always for gay rights, affirmative action, etc and then when it comes to the issue of immigration suddenly become so ultra-conservative.

Anyways, OP, you can get a state issued ID, and I don't think you need to give a SSN number or any of that.



I'm definitely not completely for the naturalization of undocumented immigrants, but I hate the arguments that people use when arguing against illegal immigration. What jobs exactly do they take away from more deserving "legal" immigrants? Dish washing jobs? Cleaners? Housekeepers? Which legal deserving immigrants want to work in those industries? None of them. Illegals aren't taking jobs away from anyone. On the issue of taxes, do you realize that a some legal immigrants and citizens don't pay any taxes either and an even larger percentage don't pay part of their taxes? Sure, people who work for large firms or large businesses have to pay all of their taxes, but workers for small businesses and owners of small companies definitely don't pay all of their taxes or any at all.

Also, economists have pointed out that when immigrants go from a poorer country to a richer country, there is a net positive effect, even if these immigrants come illegally.



Even if you had to increase wages on this kind of scale, this leads to inflation and basically brings us back to where we once were. That doesn't solve anything.

The unemployed legal citizens would rather be busboys and housekeepers than be unemployed.

 

[Mad Jack]

This thread is really lacking the illegal perspective. So I'll happily fill that void. I've been in this country since Ronald Reagan's 1st term. I can't even remember my home country and my Spanish is far from native at this point. I hate my parents for making this decision. We were upper-middle class in South America and there was absolutely no need for them to overstay their visa. But irresponsible people do irresponsible things and they decided to stay... It's actually quite ironic. Not everyone in the 3rd World has it rough. And as I mentioned earlier, my family was doing just fine (although not wealthy). But upon overstaying our visa, the U.S. became a 3rd World country for us... Not all illegal or undocumented ppl are in the same category. Imagine if your parents did what mine did. After graduating HS with honors, would you pack up and self-deport to a foreign land? Would you do it after graduating from college with honors? After volunteering in your community and donating your precious O- blood countless times?! After filing taxes every single year?! And you know what, if the government wants to tax me extra for every adult year that I've spent in this country, I'd be all for it. I mean seriously, some of my best friends are border state Republicans and they support Dreamers like me (who had no choice in this matter). You don't punish ppl for their parents' mistakes. At one point, Republicans such as John McCain, Sam Brownback, Orrin Hatch and even Trent Lott supported ppl like me. In fact, the Dream Act was introduced in the Senate last decade by Orrin Hatch-true compassionate conservatism.

And please stop with this "OMG it's not our problem crap." It just demonstrates your ignorance of American history. I don't believe in open borders. And currently, I'm in the back of the line in a process myself. But don't act like the US has been all innocent in foreign affairs. Think about the dictators this country has supported all over the world. The strongmen in Latin America. The Shah in Iran. Saddam Hussein in the 1980's. In fact, the US was fully aware he was using chemical weapons against Iran. The Vietnam War. Bombing Cambodia to death and sparking the Khmer Rouge. Gulf War 2, which has led to sectarian violence and countless refugees (speaking of illegals). The problem of illegal immigration (and I recognize it's a problem) pales in comparison to the atrocities the US has been complicit in. Imagine if you were a farmer in Southeast Asia and had to watch US bombs decimate your home and country. That is actually like living the Apocalypse- far worse than people crossing the Southern border... And no, I do not hate this country, but I'm fully aware of its flawed history and how it's wrecked the lives of countless others across the world...

Obviously, some (not all) illegals (undocumented ppl- whichever you prefer) who are not breaking the law (in other ways) should be given a pathway to legalization (but within reasonable limits). I'm ok with fines and enhanced border security is absolutely necessary. And I understand it's frustrating... It frustrates me...

And I sincerely hope that all of you current and future doctors treat everyone with the human dignity and decency they deserve...

I'm done. You will not hear from me about this issue again...

I don't have a problem with people who were brought here (like yourself and op) as children. You couldn't help it, etc etc. Like I've said, I believe we should have strong immigration reform and strong borders. We have far too low of an immigration quota to provide for the future of America, given declining birth rates and a diminished worker to beneficiary radio. I do, however, have a huge problem with adult illegal immigrants that came to America as adults.

And the atrocities you mention are exactly why I say we should stay out of other countries' business. Everything we touch turns to ash. We need to learn to look after our own country and stop interfering with the destiny of others. I've studied the "good" we do around the world, and none of it comes without consequences.

Look at USAID. We donate grain to countries to feed starving children and families. Truly, altruism at its finest. Except for the fact that all of that grain has to, by law, be bought from US farmers, who profit immensely from our charity. And, upon arrival in most countries, the food is seized by the government or warlords, and used to either feed their men or simply left to rot on the docks because it's easier to control people that are desperate and hungry than those that are strong and well fed. In the countries where the grain reaches distribution, local farmers go out of business, because how can they compete with free. With no farmers, once the aid stops, the people have no food. And so the cycle begins again.

People may say that my opinions are cold, but I am actually very familiar with the topics at hand, and simply believe that the best solutions for the future of America and our neighbors happen to be the most painful in the short term.

 

[RJGOP]

I don't have a problem with people who were brought here (like yourself and op) as children. You couldn't help it, etc etc. Like I've said, I believe we should have strong immigration reform and strong borders. We have far too low of an immigration quota to provide for the future of America, given declining birth rates and a diminished worker to beneficiary radio. I do, however, have a huge problem with adult illegal immigrants that came to America as adults.

And the atrocities you mention are exactly why I say we should stay out of other countries' business. Everything we touch turns to ash. We need to learn to look after our own country and stop interfering with the destiny of others. I've studied the "good" we do around the world, and none of it comes without consequences.

Look at USAID. We donate grain to countries to feed starving children and families. Truly, altruism at its finest. Except for the fact that all of that grain has to, by law, be bought from US farmers, who profit immensely from our charity. And, upon arrival in most countries, the food is seized by the government or warlords, and used to either feed their men or simply left to rot on the docks because it's easier to control people that are desperate and hungry than those that are strong and well fed. In the countries where the grain reaches distribution, local farmers go out of business, because how can they compete with free. With no farmers, once the aid stops, the people have no food. And so the cycle begins again.

People may say that my opinions are cold, but I am actually very familiar with the topics at hand, and simply believe that the best solutions for the future of America and our neighbors happen to be the most painful in the short term.

I agree 100% with the bolded section.

 

[Mad Jack]

I honestly never understood why people who think they're so liberal are always for gay rights, affirmative action, etc and then when it comes to the issue of immigration suddenly become so ultra-conservative.

Anyways, OP, you can get a state issued ID, and I don't think you need to give a SSN number or any of that.



I'm definitely not completely for the naturalization of undocumented immigrants, but I hate the arguments that people use when arguing against illegal immigration. What jobs exactly do they take away from more deserving "legal" immigrants? Dish washing jobs? Cleaners? Housekeepers? Which legal deserving immigrants want to work in those industries? None of them. Illegals aren't taking jobs away from anyone. On the issue of taxes, do you realize that a some legal immigrants and citizens don't pay any taxes either and an even larger percentage don't pay part of their taxes? Sure, people who work for large firms or large businesses have to pay all of their taxes, but workers for small businesses and owners of small companies definitely don't pay all of their taxes or any at all.

Also, economists have pointed out that when immigrants go from a poorer country to a richer country, there is a net positive effect, even if these immigrants come illegally.



Even if you had to increase wages on this kind of scale, this leads to inflation and basically brings us back to where we once were. That doesn't solve anything.

Inflation is not an absolute. It will affect some industries more than others and some jobs more than others. The point is, we might find the true value of some industries to be substantially higher than they are now due to the market being warped by illegal workers. Overall prices may inflate 20%, but if the wages of janitors go up 50%, that is a win for them. The point is, it is impossible to know both the true cost of certain products (agriculture) and the true value of some services (construction, ag, janitorial, etc) so long as the market is warped by illegal workers.

 

[Quizlet04]

I'm definitely not completely for the naturalization of undocumented immigrants, but I hate the arguments that people use when arguing against illegal immigration. What jobs exactly do they take away from more deserving "legal" immigrants? Dish washing jobs? Cleaners? Housekeepers? Which legal deserving immigrants want to work in those industries? None of them. Illegals aren't taking jobs away from anyone. On the issue of taxes, do you realize that a some legal immigrants and citizens don't pay any taxes either and an even larger percentage don't pay part of their taxes? Sure, people who work for large firms or large businesses have to pay all of their taxes, but workers for small businesses and owners of small companies definitely don't pay all of their taxes or any at all.

Many Americans don't take those jobs because they have to do things like support their families and pay for school supplies (or whatever). In other words, they have to pay more to maintain even a mediocre quality of life. Meanwhile, an illegal male can live with 15 other guys in a flophouse and spend 1/10th of what a legal person might spend. Americans also recognize a dangerous, illegal workplace when they see it. Are you saying more Americans should knowingly get their bodies destroyed by chemicals in a factory where there is no safety equipment provided?

 

[Greenberg702]

I honestly never understood why people who think they're so liberal are always for gay rights, affirmative action, etc and then when it comes to the issue of immigration suddenly become so ultra-conservative.

Anyways, OP, you can get a state issued ID, and I don't think you need to give a SSN number or any of that.



I'm definitely not completely for the naturalization of undocumented immigrants, but I hate the arguments that people use when arguing against illegal immigration. What jobs exactly do they take away from more deserving "legal" immigrants? Dish washing jobs? Cleaners? Housekeepers? Which legal deserving immigrants want to work in those industries? None of them. Illegals aren't taking jobs away from anyone. On the issue of taxes, do you realize that a some legal immigrants and citizens don't pay any taxes either and an even larger percentage don't pay part of their taxes? Sure, people who work for large firms or large businesses have to pay all of their taxes, but workers for small businesses and owners of small companies definitely don't pay all of their taxes or any at all.

Also, economists have pointed out that when immigrants go from a poorer country to a richer country, there is a net positive effect, even if these immigrants come illegally.



Even if you had to increase wages on this kind of scale, this leads to inflation and basically brings us back to where we once were. That doesn't solve anything.

How are people Democrats and against illegal immigration? Very easily. Read the NYT comments section of the relevant stories. This isn't because somebody is taking away someone else's job. It's about incentive and fairness to other people who want to come here and aren't in any position to hop a fence. If you let the former people stay, you're sending a message that it's OK to come here without using the proper channels, which leads to even more people doing this. Where do you draw the line?

 

[oldstock]

It's difficult to do because many people want to immigrate here... That's like sending med schools a fake transcript and MCAT scores while saying, you know there are way too many people who want to do it and are willing to work hard for it/wait. I'm only looking for a better life as a doctor.

Those same "liberal" jack*$$ would probably call those cheaters "undocumented medical students" LOL

 

[MangoPlant]

Giving illegal immigrants easy paths to citizenship and permanent residency is a slap in the face to all the immigrants who came here legally. The laws that some of these pro illegal-immigration super liberals are asking for would effectively allow illegal immigrants to cut in front of the line of people who are waiting to legally get their documents.

Fun fact: ILLEGAL immigrants in California and some other states get in-state tuition whereas international students who came here LEGALLY have to pay out of state tuition.

 

[oldstock]

Giving illegal immigrants easy paths to citizenship and permanent residency is a slap in the face to all the immigrants who came here legally...

Fun fact: ILLEGAL immigrants in California and some other states get in-state tuition whereas international students who came here LEGALLY have to pay out of state tuition.

Eff that !!!!!

 

[Cyberdyne 101]

OP, (if you're still following this cluster bomb of a thread), I wish you the best of luck. I hope you currently qualify for DACA. But if you don't, it should be expanded so hopefully you'll at least be able to get a work permit. As I mentioned earlier, Loyola Med school is accepting DACA eligible ppl, but make sure you read all of the fine print. The last thing you want is uncertainty and debt over $250,000 to be a poster boy/girl for a med school. If anything, you may want to look at PA programs. Debt from such a program would likely be less and may provide you with more flexibility. Do what's best for you!! Best of luck!! And be patient!! (I've been dealing with this since Sigourney Weaver was in her prime, so I know it's frustrating).

 

[EDMPrincesss]

if you are illegal, you are a criminal in this country and should be jailed and deported !!

I pray to God you are trolling.

 

[Greenberg702]

OP, (if you're still following this cluster bomb of a thread), I wish you the best of luck. I hope you currently qualify for DACA. But if you don't, it should be expanded so hopefully you'll at least be able to get a work permit. As I mentioned earlier, Loyola Med school is accepting DACA eligible ppl, but make sure you read all of the fine print. The last thing you want is uncertainty and debt over $250,000 to be a poster boy/girl for a med school. If anything, you may want to look at PA programs. Debt from such a program would likely be less and may provide you with more flexibility. Do what's best for you!! Best of luck!! And be patient!! (I've been dealing with this since Sigourney Weaver was in her prime, so I know it's frustrating).

Good luck to you too man. I enjoy reading your posts.

 

[EDMPrincesss]

Marry someone, ASAP.

 

[oldstock]

Well, there is an easy way around this. You set a deadline for applying/identifying yourself as an illegal immigrant seeking a legal path so people can't come out of the woodwork years later claiming to have been here all along. There will be an influx of immigrants when the law passes, but only for as long as the identification window is open. After the 6/12 months or whatever to identify yourself on a website/at your local social security office/other public office the window can close and only those people who admitted to their illegal status would proceed with the naturalization process.

Policies and laws need consistency to work. If you say you're going to stop allowing illegal immigrants to stick around, you stop. If you say you will only allow one parent to stay with a child born on US soil, you don't make exceptions. If you say you will only allow current illegal immigrants to gain citizenship, you deport everyone who comes afterwards. Effective immigration reform in other countries boils down to: enforcement, regulated compassion and consistency.

Another easy way that nobody has really mentioned here is to arrest and deport any caught illegal on sight !! No illegal should be allowed to legalize their resident status. No exception. Period.

If everyone is allowed to break the laws of this country as they wish, what is this country going to be like ?? This country is probably going to be called the United States of Mexico instead of the US of A.

That proposed law to allow current illegals to legalize is just as ridiculous and stupid as saying ok let the "undocumented" cheaters who have cheated their way from premed to med schools to remain in med school and "legalize" and obtain all the benefits there are for real legitimate med students as if those cheating never happened !!!!! And yes, those illegals indeed cheat to take things that deserved by all Americans and those immigrants who abide to the laws and process to come here legally !!!!!!!!!!

 

[FluffyPolishUnicorn]

Not going to give my personal opinion here one way or the other because it's turning into a flame war quick and it's a complex, multifaceted, issue. But just for clarification, it's not discrimination. People are not admitted to medical schools for a plethora of different reasons, are you saying it is discrimination that people were rejected for having a serious IA (institutional action) like cheating, or sale of drugs? If you agree that, that is not discrimination because those students broke the law, then you must also agree that medical schools have the right not deny admission to people who are not here via legal means (read illegally). If they can in fact get a work permit then they are no longer here illegally, and it becomes a different issue of tough competition and difficulty in international admissions to US MD.

Either way, it's not discrimination. It about meeting certain standards-- academic, legal or otherwise.

coudnt agree more!!

However not in case of children who were brought here illegally by their parents. And I will even go step farther to say that if you are 2 and were brought here, then obviously the child didn't have any say in it. But if you are 15 and your parents have a plan to migrate and you are part of it, then its a different story. But that is only my opinion.

But anyway. Good luck to the OP!!