How did you know to keep moving and/or fully commit?

[2ndlifedoc]

I know some people quit their job, go to a post-bacc, and go into medicine without looking back, while I've spoken to others that take years taking a class here and there and never quit their "day job" until they get into med school.

How did you know this was the career for you? How did you find the motivation to keep moving? For those that jumped in full turkey when and how did you decide? Background: I'm 30 went to top state school for business with lower GPA, work in consulting/tech but am super unfulfilled and lost in my current career, love the shadowing I've done in Psychiatry (not as interested in the hands on specialities), but took a CC Chem course this summer and barely got a B and am quite scared about the long road ahead given my age and unknown ability.

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[Crayola227]

Someone around here would say be sure to do more physician shadowing, to make sure you are more running "to" medicine, and less running "from" your current career.

Need to make sure the issues about fulfillment will not just follow you to a 10+ year training path (I'm including pre-req time), and $300k+ of nondischargeable debt plus the decade of lost income while in training. It's a very long road. Don't know your family and friend situation but it is not hyperbole to say that many people lose friends and family along the way, in part due to the demands of training.

It's hard for me to recommend becoming a physician to people who do not excel in hard sciences or have some passion for that material. Because even as a psychiatrist or other physician, besides the fact we are in fact applied scientists (this is what it boils down to), it is difficult to master and excel at all the material one is expected to master on the journey if one doesn't have some fascination for the hard science and math requirements. In short, one need be an excellent student, and an excellent science student at that, first.

Lastly, I tell people that your passion for medical factoids, how the human body works, and specifically working with people, difficult, traumatized people, this passion need be on par with one definition of addiction, "continued pursuit in the face of increasing harms." Because make no mistake, the harms for people who practice medicine have been steadily increasing over the years (see exhibit, covid, politics, reimbursement), and that's not even looking at training but just practice. There are a few driven types that see medicine as a white collar higher middle class job and not a calling, that do well with the workload and the lack of sleep. But that usually isn't the older person coming back for the second career but the people who went for medicine out of the gate. The very bottom line focused people say they are able to craft a practice that checks their boxes for them. If you are the more caring sort, I guarantee it will be somewhat more difficult.

Check this out for example, meant to post it elsewhere

Suffering from burnout, doctors are working drunk or high on the job: report

Story at a glance A report by All Points North found a growing number of physicians are turning to alcohol and drugs while working. Over the last three months, 1 in 7 physicians admitted…

thehill.com

Now, this is student doctor network, and lest I be chastised for seeming to just discourage people, I want to say that people who are easily scared off probably wouldn't be best served pursuing an MD. And also, this site has expanded its mission to many other types of healthcare providers. MD/DO is not the only path and it certainly isn't best for all.

But best advice I can give is to do more shadowing, and push yourself to get A's in some pre-reqs.

 

[AD04]

How did you know this was the career for you?

I didn't know but I guessed I would like interacting with patients because I liked interacting with clients. My hunch turned out to be correct but the process of getting to where I am wasn't pleasant (mainly medical school).

How did you find the motivation to keep moving?

It was a fun experience for me to get into medical school (except for MCAT studying). I was in my early 20's and was hanging out with friends and working part-time and acing all my classes without too much studying.

For those that jumped in full turkey when and how did you decide?

I couldn't envision myself doing business for the rest of my life. A particularly bad interaction with my boss at the time cemented my decision.

Background: I'm 30 went to top state school for business with lower GPA, work in consulting/tech but am super unfulfilled and lost in my current career, love the shadowing I've done in Psychiatry (not as interested in the hands on specialities), but took a CC Chem course this summer and barely got a B and am quite scared about the long road ahead given my age and unknown ability.

If you're struggling with basic sciences in a community college, you'll struggle in medical school. Given your age and your academic ability, I would not advise you to go down this path.

 

[deleted1133766]

If you're struggling with basic sciences in a community college, you'll struggle in medical school. Given your age and your academic ability, I would not advise you to go down this path.

That's a very premature assumption right there.

OP, there are 50 year old's that become doctors and people with less than stellar GPA's and MCAT scores that went on to become doctors as well.

As far as your question, make sure you want to pursue this career for the right reasons. If you are not satisfied in your current career, could you be satisfied in another area of healthcare? Why medicine specifically?

 

[Crayola227]

That's a very premature assumption right there.

OP, there are 50 year old's that become doctors and people with less than stellar GPA's and MCAT scores that went on to become doctors as well.

As far as your question, make sure you want to pursue this career for the right reasons. If you are not satisfied in your current career, could you be satisfied in another area of healthcare? Why medicine specifically?

But how is it a premature assumption? You think it's a great idea for someone who struggles to get a B in CC Gen Chem, and had a low GPA in business courses, to quit their well paying job and spend two years and however much $$ on pre-reqs to pursue medicine? People who don't do well in basic sciences courses not only struggle in medical school, they do actually flunk out or don't Match because of performance. Do you fully comprehend how financially damaging all this actually is?

The only way this makes sense to pursue, two things must be true, and so far, nothing OP has said, says he meets the following: 1) wants this so much he will basically hurt himself in the sacrifice of the pursuit, he wants medicine more than anything, like happiness, sleep, or respect or time with dying loved ones 2) he can become a professional (as in, a top notch) student in the sciences.

The outliers you describe, I've seen them either flunk out of med school or not match or flunk out of residency, or I've seen them get through by sheer force of will AND upping their game as a student to do well enough. They often have compelling stories. But don't sell someone a dream that they can make this career switch without some of these things going for them.

 

[deleted1133766]

But how is it a premature assumption? You think it's a great idea for someone who struggles to get a B in CC Gen Chem, and had a low GPA in business courses, to quit their well paying job and spend two years and however much $$ on pre-reqs to pursue medicine? People who don't do well in basic sciences courses not only struggle in medical school, they do actually flunk out or don't Match because of performance. Do you fully comprehend how financially damaging all this actually is?

The only way this makes sense to pursue, two things must be true, and so far, nothing OP has said, says he meets the following: 1) wants this so much he will basically hurt himself in the sacrifice of the pursuit, he wants medicine more than anything, like happiness, sleep, or respect or time with dying loved ones 2) he can become a professional (as in, a top notch) student in the sciences.

The outliers you describe, I've seen them either flunk out of med school or not match or flunk out of residency, or I've seen them get through by sheer force of will AND upping their game as a student to do well enough. They often have compelling stories. But don't sell someone a dream that they can make this career switch without some of these things going for them.

I get that you want to "warn" a potential student but you don't know them and you can't speak for every medical student past or present.

I've seen enough crazy stories of people becoming doctors in US MD, DO, and even the Caribbean. If the OP produces a 510 MCAT score in two years, would you still tell them not to apply?

Nobody's selling anybody anything. If the OP wants to become a doctor then they will do what they need to do to become a doctor. Medical schools are not closing their doors anytime soon.

You know very well that becoming a doctor is a numbers game so don't act like you don't.

 

[Crayola227]

I get that you want to "warn" a potential student but you don't know them and you can't speak for every medical student past or present.

I've seen enough crazy stories of people becoming doctors in US MD, DO, and even the Caribbean. If the OP produces a 510 MCAT score in two years, would you still tell them not to apply?

Nobody's selling anybody anything. If the OP wants to become a doctor then they will do what they need to do to become a doctor. Medical schools are not closing their doors anytime soon.

You know very well that becoming a doctor is a numbers game so don't act like you don't.

Wtf dude, if it's a numbers game, which I fail to see how I suggested otherwse, than why are you basically saying the opposite with examples of students with less than stellar stats getting in? You're the one contradicting this.

A stellar MCAT does not necessarily make up for lackluster grades and GPA.

It will not be enough most likely for this person to take their low business degree GPA and get B's in CC courses and convince most medical schools with a continued record like that, even with a high MCAT, that they are now going to succeed in medical school and training. There is a reason med schools look at both academic transcripts AND MCAT. They are not actually used as proxy measures for the same things. I see a high MCAT and think cool, they could pass Step 1. But low GPA? Not sure they will survive the firehose and GRIND of training.

And let's not even talk about the Caribbean pathway.

If this person really wants a shot at medical school, they are going to need to do better than Bs in pre-reqs at a CC.

 

[Crayola227]

Remember the question was how did you know to keep going or fully commit. And part of my answer is effectively "You find you have an aptitude for hard sciences and being a student that allows you to succeed and get good grades and test scores. You are passionate enough about the material and medicine as a field to make that happen."

I've personally never seen anyone matriculate into a medical school, match, and complete a residency that fit too far outside that box.

People forget that we do them a favor keeping them out of this field if they can't do well. It's an enormous sunk cost otherwise.

 

[deleted1133766]

Wtf dude, if it's a numbers game, which I fail to see

Ask your colleagues. Tell them some dude on SDN said getting into medical school was a numbers game and see what they have to say and let me know.

 

[deleted1133766]

Remember the question was how did you know to keep going or fully commit. And part of my answer is effectively "You find you have an aptitude for hard sciences and being a student that allows you to succeed and get good grades and test scores. You are passionate enough about the material and medicine as a field to make that happen."

I've personally never seen anyone matriculate into a medical school, match, and complete a residency that fit too far outside that box.

People forget that we do them a favor keeping them out of this field if they can't do well. It's an enormous sunk cost otherwise.

Wow, I don't know what to say then.

 

[Crayola227]

Ask your colleagues. Tell them some dude on SDN said getting into medical school was a numbers game and see what they have to say and let me know.

That's not what I said, you took it out of context like a troll.

 

[deleted1133766]

That's not what I said, you took it out of context like a troll.

Ah, don't even try that. I can use my school email as verification if I wanted to.

Actually, I re-read your post and I have never met someone who completed medical school give that same advice or have that tone.

If someone wants to become a doctor, they do the work to become the doctor. They don't become a doctor when they don't want to do the work. Right? Becoming a doctor is not some pie in the sky fantasy like some people make it out to be.

You absolutely cannot judge someone because they got a B in gen chem. That is just silly

It is irresponsible to tell someone that they can't do something when you don't even know anything about that person. For all you know, the OP could have some stellar background that actually makes them a shoe in.

Seriously though, I would talk to more of your colleagues to see what they have to say. They just might change your opinion on the process.

 

[Crayola227]

Ah, don't even try that. I can use my school email as verification if I wanted to.

Actually, I re-read your post and I have never met someone who completed medical school give that same advice or have that tone.

If someone wants to become a doctor, they do the work to become the doctor. They don't become a doctor when they don't want to do the work. Right? Becoming a doctor is not some pie in the sky fantasy like some people make it out to be.

You absolutely cannot judge someone because they got a B in gen chem. That is just silly

It is irresponsible to tell someone that they can't do something when you don't even know anything about that person. For all you know, the OP could have some stellar background that actually makes them a shoe in.

Seriously though, I would talk to more of your colleagues to see what they have to say. They just might change your opinion on the process.

Yeah, no worries, I'll do that in 3 weeks when I start doing interviews again for the season for admissions for a major academic medical center for the 4th year running. We have another training we have to do first where I'm sure I'll get to hear again what my colleagues are looking for.

 

[deleted1133766]

Yeah, no worries, I'll do that in 3 weeks when I start doing interviews again for the season for admissions for a major academic medical center for the 4th year running. We have another training we have to do first where I'm sure I'll get to hear again what my colleagues are looking for.

Good luck with the training.

But yeah, just like you'll be doing your thing there are like 200 other programs doing the same thing and I was just saying that you would be surprised at some of the candidates that actually get into medical school AND become practicing physicians. You don't speak for them.

My school loves nontrad students, comeback stories, and persistence. Your program might value other things. The OP or anyone else isn't just applying to your school.

I hope you understood that. It's not personal.

 

[CoolBreezes]

I agree with the gist of what @Crayola227 said.

My school loves nontrad students, comeback stories, and persistence

That’s awesome news and will hopefully inspire others here to pursue their dream, if medicine is really what they want. But what OP has revealed so far is more of a re-run of past underwhelming performance without evidence of exhausting resources to turn the ship around. Hopefully that will change.

 

[AD04]

Being a doctor isn't a participation trophy. You don't become one just because you want it hard enough. There is a chance that OP can succeed. There is also a chance he (I'll assume OP is a male) can fail out in medical school or residency which would result in being 5 - 10 years older and several hundred thousand dollars in debt. This will result in stress to his family as well and break up relationships. (That is assuming he can get into medical school in the first place, which is easier for some groups over others from objective standards.) He is already on the older side. And his academic history isn't that good. But there is always that chance he'll succeed but it is slim given what is presented so far.

Chance of failure would be higher if he attends medical school outside the US.

 

[deleted1133766]

Being a doctor isn't a participation trophy. You don't become one just because you want it hard enough. There is a chance that OP can succeed. There is also a chance he (I'll assume OP is a male) can fail out in medical school or residency which would result in being 5 - 10 years older and several hundred thousand dollars in debt. This will result in stress to his family as well and break up relationships. (That is assuming he can get into medical school in the first place, which is easier for some groups over others from objective standards.) He is already on the older side. And his academic history isn't that good. But there is always that chance he'll succeed but it is slim given what is presented so far.

Chance of failure would be higher if he attends medical school outside the US.

This is exactly what I was trying to say. We just don't know anything about them or anybody else to really tell them that they won't succeed down this path when many already have.

What's wrong with telling them to try if they really want it bad enough?

 

[Crayola227]

I agree with the gist of what @Crayola227 said.


That’s awesome news and will hopefully inspire others here to pursue their dream, if medicine is really what they want. But what OP has revealed so far is more of a re-run of past underwhelming performance without evidence of exhausting resources to turn the ship around. Hopefully that will change.

Yeah I in no way want to hate on anyone doing reinvention. But by definition, reinvention means doing things differently, and I want to really impress upon the OP, that even if they aren't sure what they want to do yet, if they think they might be serious about medicine, like, the minute you have that inkling, you will open the most doors/ease that path best by striving to be a better student, the best student you can.

I also would like my words to burn in their ears like a kick in the pants, the anxiety of which spurs them to do better. They've only had the one B post-bac. The OP would be better off if from here on out they had As. That's all. It's not too late, but they don't do themselves favors continuing to be less than 100% committed to the best possible grades from here on out. Even if they don't know if they're all in or not.

The truth is, that even before you know you're "all in" and committed, the highest grades you can is what you need to do. And working that hard, even for subject matter that doesn't excite you, isn't easy, for stuff you're not sure you'll use again, is exactly good practice for medical school.

Sounds like the OP wasn't sure they were committed and so they didn't work harder for a better grade? I don't know. But their questioning implies they are waiting to feel totally committed before doing something, not sure what. I agree they should probably feel more certain before quitting their job or going post-bac full time or applying. But regardless of what you know you're going to do, if you want that option, regardless it can only help OP to have the best grades they can.

Without their feeling certain, *I* feel certain that it would be best they tried to have the best grades they can.

I suggested what might help them feel more certain of this path would be doing more to explore what being a physician is like. Shadow more than a psychiatrist. Much of training and other specialties does not look anything like a psychiatrist's workday (I shadowed a psychiatrist for years). And for various reasons, pretty much no one is guaranteed any one given specialty, not even a less competitive one, just because they want it. A lot can happen between matriculation and graduation.

And if I didn't make it clear before (other threads and posts do) they should pursue firsthand clinical experiences and volunteer opportunities that allow them to interact with people, demographics they would likely see as a physician, interacting in ways that exercise similar skills. Goro and DokterMom both give great examples of these kinds of activities.

As I suggested before, finding oneself excelling in these arenas, and feeling fulfillment from being a good student (a physician need be a good student for life) and from serving others, tends to help one know if they should continue. But I would urge someone to explore and get to know what a day in the life is really like.

 

[deleted1133766]

And if I didn't make it clear before (other threads and posts do) they should pursue firsthand clinical experiences and volunteer opportunities that allow them to interact with people, demographics they would likely see as a physician, interacting in ways that exercise similar skills. Goro and DokterMom both give great examples of these kinds of activities.

But I would urge someone to explore and get to know what a day in the life is really like.

love the shadowing I've done in Psychiatry

I mean that's what I saw and that's why I would tell them to go ahead and move forward with their pursuits.

There are a variety of academic enhancement programs that the OP can pursue at the undergraduate and graduate level to get them "med school ready" if they wish.

Personally, I'm in the second year of an MS biomed program and the first year was essentially the first year of medical school. If you can complete that with a 3.0 (as per my program director) (who is on the admissions committee!) then the school has the confidence that you will succeed in medical school.

 

[mudfud26]

Me: “C’s get degree’s.”
Some kid fresh out of college “But they don’t get into Med School.”
Me: “Yes they do, because I’m here.”
I had this conversation at my M1 orientation. I had some C’s in undergrad pre-req’s. They were a challenge to me, but I learned how to study and balance my time. I took 6 gap years where I did research, re-took classes, and figured out how to study while working full time. As it turns out, I’m way better equipped to cope with challenges and failure, and I reach out for help before I doom-spiral unlike half of my classmates who waited until they failed the first exam of the block.

Age and overcoming challenges are advantages in medical school. Try a few things! Figure out if medicine is right for you. If you can get an upward trend in your GPA and conquer your pre-req’s, your non-trad story will look great!

Edit: I personally loved medicine and research from High school. And by love, I mean, happy to work with vomit, stool, stinky animals, and angry humans waiting to get COVID tests since I was helping people. My C’s made me give up on Medical school and pursue research only until I got a research job where my boss said publications and a stellar MCAT could make admissions overlook an old GPA. With medicine, you need to be able to love it so much that you’re at least fine to be in the specialty equivalent of vomit. For psych, that might just be word-vomit.

 

[deleted1133766]

Age and overcoming challenges are advantages in medical school. Try a few things! Figure out if medicine is right for you. If you can get an upward trend in your GPA and conquer your pre-req’s, your non-trad story will look great!

I would like to add that becoming a doctor is not a linear process. You will fail down this path at some point but that does not mean that you give up. Find me a medical school class where some "stellar" student in that class never failed an exam. In my MS program, you have students who were acing gross anatomy who fell flat on their faces during biochem and pharmacology. You also have other students who started off slower but finished off very strong.

There will also be medical students who are very strong with basic sciences but not very strong clinically.

What I have always found interesting about medicine and working with doctors and being treated by doctors is that the "best" doctors are usually the one's with interesting non-linear stories and they are also very humble.

Again, if anyone doubts that just ask your colleagues or ask a bunch of doctors in the real world what their experience was like.

 

[mudfud26]

I would like to add that becoming a doctor is not a linear process. You will fail down this path at some point but that does not mean that you give up. Find me a medical school class where some "stellar" student in that class never failed an exam.

Oh, absolutely. I just went from failing a quiz on Friday to studying all weekend and acing the same material plus extras on Sunday. Failing means troubleshooting what went wrong and how to improve. Adapt, persist, survive, and eventually thrive.

 

[deleted1133766]

Oh, absolutely. I just went from failing a quiz on Friday to studying all weekend and acing the same material plus extras on Sunday. Failing means troubleshooting what went wrong and how to improve. Adapt, persist, survive, and eventually thrive.

Yup

 

[LadyDustyBlue]

I know some people quit their job, go to a post-bacc, and go into medicine without looking back, while I've spoken to others that take years taking a class here and there and never quit their "day job" until they get into med school.

How did you know this was the career for you? How did you find the motivation to keep moving? For those that jumped in full turkey when and how did you decide? Background: I'm 30 went to top state school for business with lower GPA, work in consulting/tech but am super unfulfilled and lost in my current career, love the shadowing I've done in Psychiatry (not as interested in the hands on specialities), but took a CC Chem course this summer and barely got a B and am quite scared about the long road ahead given my age and unknown ability.

I’m in your age group but our situations are pretty different. I went to a 4-year university when I started, the university messed up my English requirements & sent me to remedial and told me to stay there and basically waste my money & time w/ no way of proving I was proficient.

Long story short, I left that university, worked 3 different jobs afterward at the same time, ended up moving back to my hometown to be an on/off community college student while working 2 jobs — ended up working for myself — and after a lot of life experience + volunteering, I realized I needed to transfer and go for medical school.

Getting a B in Community College Chem is a good thing no matter what you think now. You got through it. There will be much more annoying or disappointing things in life like… college administrative bureaucracy.

As for job fulfillment, who the hell am I to say that you’re not fulfilled and some other path would be more fulfilling? Like others, I would say do shadowing but more importantly, get your hands dirty and find experiences that expose you to patients or even those who society sometimes leaves vulnerable or don’t always want to deal with — like the homeless, the addicts, children and adults with special needs, the elderly, those with dementia and Alzheimer’s who quite literally forget or are sometimes forgotten because these are tough challenges.

If you want to be a physician, these are some of the populations you will serve. If you don’t mind serving these populations and are actually motivated to share in some of these very real challenges, then fine. Keep taking classes, volunteering, and whatever else needed.

Because the reality is — healthcare has its own challenges beyond the mind-numbing challenges of whatever opportunities are available for a former business major like yourself. All jobs will have their days of not feeling fulfilling and days where you feel like you were meant to be there.

Life is too short for bs. You’ll know what’s worth your time after you try whatever you can. It’s human nature to change and to strive. So just… idk try and be honest with what you can give with your life.

Don’t be disappointed if you tried and fail to make an exam or whatever. But I promise you that not trying something different when you don’t like what’s already going on will bother you.

It’s up to you to decide whether medicine is right for you.

But I knew when I was already serving people who needed help in other ways. And I found out and still feel the best way for me will be to get a medical school education. Everyone finds their reasons.

 

[Fluidity of Movement]

Sidestepping all of the above discussion:

Hello and good day to you!

The first thing is you have to figure out what is holding you back academically. Your confidence will drastically improve once you identify the cause and go in and knock one of those classes out of the park--although if you were working full time AND completed a 5 week chemistry course, then honestly a B is pretty good for a first time science class coming from your background.

Your school likely has 10 week classes starting within the next 3-4 weeks. I'd say head down there now and sign up for academic success coaching and a tutor.

Learn about and practice metacogniton, non-passive studying, and active recall drills. Do all of that and take the 10 week course this semester if you can, and really homerun it.



Your mind will be more free to think about the possibilities, reasons why, and if it's all worth it ONCE you have the confidence in knowing that you are capable of the coursework.

There isn't a single doctor now who hasn't had their doubts or questioned their abilities. I've had endless setbacks and detractors over the past ten years, but I know that medicine is the only thing for me, and I'm going to keep working towards it until I can't feasibly work towards it any further. How did I end up like this? What made you all decide on medicine as non-trads?

 

[Leo88]

My school loves nontrad students, comeback stories, and persistence.

Well, this is me. Can you PM me your school name? Or at least other schools that similarly love nontrad students?