How Difficult to Merely Pass Med School?

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theslowclap

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I was recently accepted, and after looking at all the debt I would have to accumulate throughout medical school, I started to think about the possibility that I do not make it through medical school or get matched.

So my question is: how likely is it that I go to medical school, get 200,000 in debt, and not match anywhere?

I don't really know what specialty I want at this point, so I wouldn't be concerned if I matched into a less-competitive residency (for argument's sake).

I obviously am hoping for the best, but I like to plan for the worst. Is it common for people to fail out, not match, etc?
 
It is not hard to match the less competitive specialties like family medicine.
 
The possibility of flunking out of a US MD school is very low. The administration (So a grain of salt is needed) tells us that most of these students are self-selected.

The possibility of not matching also exists, but usually people who don't match messed up their ranking lists, in the sense of not including less competitive programs or specialties for those with borderline applications, or simply not ranking enough programs. They were quoting stats at us a while back about this. Something like better than half of people who don't match list less than four programs.

The moral is that schools pick students they know have the capability to suceed. If you got in, you can get through.
 
All good info above.

Of course this is anecdotal, but the people initially in my class who will not make it to graduation (20 days to go), withdrew themselves from the program (except for one who had legal problems, but I think even he was given the option to leave so he could avoid official expulsion).

Med schools will basically drag you to the finish line if need be, as long as you provide the time commitment and effort (obviously this isn't ideal).

For a US senior not to match (or worst yet, scramble) into a residency, there was either poor planning involved and/or they were over-reaching with their goals and expectations. Or they had serious personality / social issues that were uncovered during interviews.

Just had my med school loan exit interview; it was depressing. However, there is nothing else I would rather be doing with my life (save maybe professional athlete, but I am horribly under-qualified).
 
As my class nears the end of the first year, we've lost 4 students. 2 withdrew on their own, 1 got in trouble for disregarding military rules so her leaving had nothing to do with medical school, and the last technically was disenrolled for grades, but we're pretty sure she didn't want to be there and got bad grades as a result. So in the end, 4 are gone, but for all 4 it was not because they tried their best and couldn't hack it.
 
I'm a little worried about this myself. I've never really had to study for anything. I couldn't even force myself to study for the mcat. I'm worried I won't be able to force myself to study in med school and then not do well. But then on the other hand, I think of all the Caribbean students with crap GPA and MCATs who make it, so it can't be all that difficult, right?
 
But then on the other hand, I think of all the Caribbean students with crap GPA and MCATs who make it, so it can't be all that difficult, right?

I don't understand this logic. Those programs are less successful and far inferior in terms of quality of education than US MD schools.
 
I don't understand this logic. Those programs are less successful and far inferior in terms of quality of education than US MD schools.

If 95% of students at places like SGU and Pikeville graduate, students who couldn't get over a 3.3 GPA or 23 MCAT, then it can't be that hard just to pass.

Also, the only objective measurement of quality of education, the USMLE, would seem to suggest places like SGU are superior to the average stateside school.
 
If 95% of students at places like SGU and Pikeville graduate, students who couldn't get over a 3.3 GPA or 23 MCAT, then it can't be that hard just to pass.

Also, the only objective measurement of quality of education, the USMLE, would seem to suggest places like SGU are superior to the average stateside school.

This seems really misguided. i don't think that the graduation rate is that high, or even close really. and, if their usmle scores are higher (i dont think they are), its bc a lot of time they take 6 months off to study for them.

maybe youll be one of the few that doesn't have to study much. sounds like you sure hope you'll be.
 
If 95% of students at places like SGU and Pikeville graduate, students who couldn't get over a 3.3 GPA or 23 MCAT, then it can't be that hard just to pass.

Also, the only objective measurement of quality of education, the USMLE, would seem to suggest places like SGU are superior to the average stateside school.

The folks above have said that 95% of students at US MD schools graduate. I don't even know the figures for US DO schools. Does someone have this information?

The percentage is much, much lower for Carribean schools. Someone going to the Carribean is taking a much higher risk of not graduating.

Nobody is saying that even just passing MD school is easy. It takes a lot of work! However, the students selected to go to med school in the US are capable of it.
 
If 95% of students at places like SGU and Pikeville graduate, students who couldn't get over a 3.3 GPA or 23 MCAT, then it can't be that hard just to pass.

Also, the only objective measurement of quality of education, the USMLE, would seem to suggest places like SGU are superior to the average stateside school.

This is not true. At SGU, only around 70-80% of the first year entering class will match into a US residency. And this is the best of the best: at other Carib schools it is closer to 50/50. Any claim to a 95% pass rate is based on their screening process, where they simply won't let students sit it for the USMLE unless they pass some internal exams.
 
Passing grades at most schools is incredibly low, like a 50%, so passing is not really that difficult. However, just passing everything doesn't really help you in terms of your class rank which means getting a more competitive residency much more difficult. But, on the flip side, our dean essentially told us that once you're in, you're not leaving. The administration does everything in their power to help you get through the 4 years.
 
Passing grades at most schools is incredibly low, like a 50%, so passing is not really that difficult. However, just passing everything doesn't really help you in terms of your class rank which means getting a more competitive residency much more difficult. But, on the flip side, our dean essentially told us that once you're in, you're not leaving. The administration does everything in their power to help you get through the 4 years.

ive never heard of anywhere below 65% for passing. and some places its up as high as 75%
 
Agreed with the above. I'd say med school isn't difficult to just pass, but it will still take a lot of work - more than you put in during undergrad, for sure.
 
I think it just depends on how you study, how good a student you are, how good a memory you have, and how good a test taker you are. I think med school has been far easier than undergrad, but other people have had the opposite experience. It really depends.
 
At a United Sates Medical school it's virtual impossible to fail out if you put in a bare minimum of effort. The average on most tests in my school is either in the high 80s or low 90s, so you need to be more than 3 standard deviations below the curve to fail anything. You also have to fail multiple classes to repeat a year, and you need to repeat multiple years before they kick you out entirely. Generally my school holds back one person per year and even they just finish medical school in 5 years instead of 4. The rumor is the last student who actually failed out (as opposed to getting kicked out for an honor violation or having a breakdown or something) needed to fail second year 4 times in a row. I don't think anyone has ever passed but failed to match.

So, short answer, if you can get in you can stay in. If you pass you can pretty much count on matching somewhere. It might be in Family Med in the middle of nowhere, but you'll be able to practice medicine.

If you go to medical school out of the country I give you a 1/5 chance of ending up a practicing US doctor.

ive never heard of anywhere below 65% for passing. and some places its up as high as 75%

Yeah I think most med schools have insanely high averages rather than insanely low minimum grades, but six of one half a dozen of the other, you know?
 
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I'm a little worried about this myself. I've never really had to study for anything. I couldn't even force myself to study for the mcat. I'm worried I won't be able to force myself to study in med school and then not do well. But then on the other hand, I think of all the Caribbean students with crap GPA and MCATs who make it, so it can't be all that difficult, right?

If you don't pass med school, it's b/c you're lazy, dumb, or both.
 
At a United Sates Medical school it's virtual impossible to fail out if you put in a bare minimum of effort. The average on most tests in my school is either in the high 80s or low 90s, so you need to be more than 3 standard deviations below the curve to fail anything. You also have to fail multiple classes to repeat a year, and you need to repeat multiple years before they kick you out entirely. Generally my school holds back one person per year and even they just finish medical school in 5 years instead of 4. The rumor is the last student who actually failed out (as opposed to getting kicked out for an honor violation or having a breakdown or something) needed to fail second year 4 times in a row.

This is all true, though its important to note that while schools really don't let you fail out, some students do drop out if they are continually forced to repeat years... something that could also be of concern to the OP... but this is not a significant number either.
 
I always hear mixed reviews about medical school. I have heard two sides of the story. On one side I hear that the hardest thing about medical school is just getting in and that the turnover rate in medical school is not low because everyone is so smart, it is because the administation won't let you drop out.

However, on the other side I have heard from some that medical school is so hard (not impossible), and not because of the content of the information, but how much there is to remember.

I just looked at the grading criteria at some of the US medical schools and a lot of them actually on the PASS/FAIL system. I thought, all you would have to do is score a minimum of 60%. I didn't think that was too bad if you just wanted to PASS the class. I am very interested in going into internal medicine and then possible going into a fellowship.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Thank you!
 
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I always hear mixed reviews about medical school. I have heard two sides of the story. On one side I hear that the hardest thing about medical school is just getting in and that the turnover rate in medical school is not low because everyone is so smart, it is because the administation won't let you drop out.

However, on the other side I have heard from some that medical school is so hard (not impossible), and not because of the content of the information, but how much there is to remember.

I just looked at the grading criteria at some of the US medical schools and a lot of them actually on the PASS/FAIL system. I thought, all you would have to do is score a minimum of 60%. I didn't think that was too bad if you just wanted to PASS the class. I am very interested in going into internal medicine and then possible going into a fellowship.

Can someone shed some light on this?

Thank you!

In general, medical schools are willing to work with students to ensure they meet the degree requirements. Attrition rates are very low for US MD medical schools (somewhere around 3%, I think).

Yes, the volume of information is large. Some of the material is difficult to grasp, but most is about memorization. The hardest part for many is not falling behind.

Yes, many schools are pass/fail, and as they say, P=MD, but you still need to pass the USMLE board exams. Internal medicine does not tend to be particularly difficult to match into. I do not know how the fellowship process works.
 
In general, medical schools are willing to work with students to ensure they meet the degree requirements. Attrition rates are very low for US MD medical schools (somewhere around 3%, I think).


A couple of years back the AMSA student magazine published that the attrition rate nationally at US allo schools was about 5%, with 1.5% due to academic reasons (ie failed out), which I believe are still pretty close to the current numbers. As mentioned above by Perrotfish, some med schools never fail people out, so that (1.5%) means that other med schools out there are failing 2-3 people each year. From a class of 150-200, a failout rate of 1.5% isn't a ton of people. If you are willing to put in the work, and change up things when you find them not working, it probably won't be you.

As far as matching is concerned, about 93% of US allo seniors who enter the match match each year, with most of the remainder snaring spots in the scramble. So odds are very good that if you get into a US allo med school you will graduate, and if you graduate, you will land a residency spot.

I do suggest that saying it's hard to fail out and that it's easy to pass are really two very different things. Maybe it's easy to pass at some of the programs out there, but certainly not all. (In truth, I think you get a lot of bad advice on SDN on this topic because whenever folks ask about failing out, someone from one of these programs which has never ever failed someone out chimes in -- that is not really the majority BTW). I've seen a few people fail tests, courses, and even whole years. Med school allows folks to remediate and gives lots of second chances so these folks all do graduate eventually (but maybe not in 4 years). Odds are very good at most med schools that you are going to see one or two of your first year classmates still be a first year as you progress into second year. It happens. They still have a career.

The folks I've seen repeat first year of med school were science majors with strong undergrad backgrounds, and who you wouldn't characterize as lazy in terms of hours. But the big trick with med school is that part of what you learn in the first block of med school is how you learn. And it ends up being a very individualized process, and to some extent is more important than the material itself because it's what's going to serve you for the rest of this career. What worked in college very often doesn't work in med school, I'm afraid. There are lots of tried and true methods you are going to find really don't work well for you. Some people learn well in groups, some do best solo. Some need to attend every lecture, others get more from reading primary resources. There will be folks who live and die by flashcards, and others who draw detailed flow charts. You may find you are spending a ton of hours but not efficiently, such that you are really spinning your wheels. And if that's you, you won't do as well on the test as the person who has mastered getting info into his brain more efficiently who puts in half the time. That doesn't make the person lazy, but might make the person at risk for not passing. And that's the key - med school poses two challenges (1) covering a ton of material, and (2) learning how to get that info into your brain effectively and efficiently. I guarantee you a few folks are going to come out of undergrad thinking they know how to study and yet seriously struggle in the first set of exams. And they will be extremely frustrated because they know they put in more hours than some dude who smoked them on the test. It happens every year. Doesn't mean they didn't put in "the bare minimum of effort", or that they are lazy or that they are stupid. Just means they didn't get efficient yet. And if they go to a med school that does fail people (most of them), they can be at real risk to fail a test, a course or even a semester. But again, if that happens, they get a second, and probably a third chance. (Which is the real reason it's hard to fail out altogether.)
 
At my school, students who fail an exam are given a promptly disregarded letter reminding us to do better, and students who fail a class remediate over the summer (2 weeks, several in my class doing that). You have to fail quite a few classes to flunk a year, and, even then, you can retake it the next year. Most of those students have had underlying issues (deaths in family, pregnancy, health problems) or have been seriously side-tracked by local night life early in the year, and all the ones I've heard of came back to make up that year or transfered to another medical school. Schools would lose accreditation if students started flunking out on a regular basis. Make sure you study and go to someone at your school if you start having problems with material, though...
 
I know this is really late, but I completely forgot that I had posted this question awhile ago. Thank you for everyone who contributed to my question. I know at SGU where I am thinking about applying to medical school they also have a deceleration policy where if they see an MS-1 struggling they interevene and see if they can go to student counseling and if the student does fail a course or 2 then they slow you down so you graduate in 5 years instead of 4 years.

Medical school is a ton of work, but no matter what it all depends on how badly someone wants that MD to help people for the rest of their lives. It is not just one's for job security and success since there are other jobs in which someone can make even more money without all the red tape and committment, but if you truly see yourself giving something back to others in the most positive way possible and are passionate about health sciences then medicine is for you.
 
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