How do ADCOMS confirm URM status?

[nope80]

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I just got into a debate w someone today about this. They were saying that if they put down that they were hispanic then they would get into a bunh of schools and that it would be possible to put down that you are a URM if you aren't-but i was pretty sure that you cant. Obviously this is unethical, illegal, etc.! but what is the formal way in which they check?

 

[bwells46]

I just got into a debate w someone today about this. They were saying that if they put down that they were hispanic then they would get into a bunh of schools and that it would be possible to put down that you are a URM if you aren't-but i was pretty sure that you cant. Obviously this is unethical, illegal, etc.! but what is the formal way in which they check?

I have a friend that said he was hispanic but he really looked and acted like a white boy. He did have some hispanic blood in him but that was three or four generations back.

He was asked about this a couple times at interviews but they took him at his word and he got in.

He's now in a minority summer program and has a minority scholarship.

I guess as long as you don't put something that it's blatently obvious you're not, then you'll probably get away with it.

However, I have ancestors that were Native American about seven generations back but I wouldn't put that I'm Native American. I think anything past your grandparents is usually not considered for the basis of ethnicity.

 

[45408]

It's hard to call yourself Native American though, because you have to produce proof that a tribe acknowledges you as one of their own. What if you're a white South African? Are you an African-American URM then? There was a huge fight about this before when a white South African was denied an African-American scholarship because he wasn't black (even though that wasn't stipulated).

 

[Shredder]

interesting. if i dont get into the schools i want to this time around, im reapplying next year as a hispanic. then i can kick back and be treated like a scouted athlete during the whole thing, and even afterward. its amazing how much difference one check box can make.

 

[Labslave]

interesting. if i dont get into the schools i want to this time around, im reapplying next year as a hispanic. then i can kick back and be treated like a scouted athlete during the whole thing, and even afterward. its amazing how much difference one check box can make.

😛

 

[jbrice1639]

It's hard to call yourself Native American though, because you have to produce proof that a tribe acknowledges you as one of their own. What if you're a white South African? Are you an African-American URM then? There was a huge fight about this before when a white South African was denied an African-American scholarship because he wasn't black (even though that wasn't stipulated).

yeah, i had a south-african girl in a class of mine in grade school and we were doing those achievement tests and she wanted to put african-american and the teacher said she couldn't...it was interesting to see a teacher try to explain that one to a 12-year old girl. in the same class, there was a jamaican boy who refused to put that he was african-american stating the obvious fact that he wasn't african...and again, the teacher made him say that he was because "african-american" is about skin color, not being african. makes sense....... 🙄

 

[nope80]

I have a friend that said he was hispanic but he really looked and acted like a white boy. He did have some hispanic blood in him but that was three or four generations back.

He was asked about this a couple times at interviews but they took him at his word and he got in.

He's now in a minority summer program and has a minority scholarship.

I guess as long as you don't put something that it's blatently obvious you're not, then you'll probably get away with it.

However, I have ancestors that were Native American about seven generations back but I wouldn't put that I'm Native American. I think anything past your grandparents is usually not considered for the basis of ethnicity.

really?! thats totally crazy. I thought my friend was being revolutionary in mentioning this, but i guess it's been done.the thing that is funny is that even though she isn't hispanic, she kinda looks it! she doesn't have a hispanic name but could get away with the look.

I always thought that there were legalities behind this-like that you would have to be registered under some governmental category as officially "X".

 

[medhacker]

One could not claim to belong to a given group without actually being considered to belong to that group by an average person. Adcoms know this.


Try to be a smart A#$ and watch the Adcoms use their discretion to discredit your whole application process with each school you applied to. Not worthed!

 

[Zuras]

It's hard to call yourself Native American though, because you have to produce proof that a tribe acknowledges you as one of their own. What if you're a white South African? Are you an African-American URM then? There was a huge fight about this before when a white South African was denied an African-American scholarship because he wasn't black (even though that wasn't stipulated).

Actually that isn't true. I'm an acknowledged member of an Indian tribe, but I can't claim I'm native American. (I'm 1/8 native American.) You need to be at least 1/4 native American by blood to be considered native American. It is a ridiculous double standard. Only native Americans have to prove they are a certain percent. This is recorded on your CIB card, which comes from the government.

 

[Zuras]

One could not claim to belong to a given group without actually being considered to belong to that group by an average person. Adcoms know this.


Try to be a smart A#$ and watch the Adcoms use their discretion to discredit your whole application process with each school you applied to. Not worthed!

I'd love to see the resulting lawsuit. I know mulattos that are whiter than me.

 

[45408]

Actually that isn't true. I'm an acknowledged member of an Indian tribe, but I can't claim I'm native American. (I'm 1/8 native American.) You need to be at least 1/4 native American by blood to be considered native American. It is a ridiculous double standard. Only native Americans have to prove they are a certain percent. This is recorded on your CIB card, which comes from the government.

Okay, but you still would have to be recognized by the tribe IN ADDITION to being 1/4, right?

 

[tigress]

Actually that isn't true. I'm an acknowledged member of an Indian tribe, but I can't claim I'm native American. (I'm 1/8 native American.) You need to be at least 1/4 native American by blood to be considered native American. It is a ridiculous double standard. Only native Americans have to prove they are a certain percent. This is recorded on your CIB card, which comes from the government.

An article in yesterday's New York Times Magazine implied something slightly different. It did discuss CIB cards, but implied that many people are able to join tribes or sub-tribes based on American Indian ancestry that they discover through geneology, which I suspect means with less than 1/4 Indian blood. I know that one can join the main organization of the Cherokee tribe with 1/8 Cherokee blood. Anyway, it was a really interesting article. I did come away from it with the impression that some of the newer tribal groups are much more lax in their membership requirements (American Indian ancestry, degree not specified). And these are government-recognized tribal groups. The article did say that to be considered a tribe that has casino rights and such there are much stricter standards, if that's what you meant by being "considered Native American." I'm sure I know less about it than you do, though; I only know based on my father (who's 1/8 Cherokee), a book I read about American Indians, and this article from yesterday 🙂

Anyway, I'm not sure which of these standards apply to designating oneself American Indian on an application. On the one hand I would assume the 1/8 standard (which is what I was led to believe was the rule when applying to college). On the other hand, based on this article there seem to be people with much less actual native ancestry who live as American Indians, completely immersed in that culture, so it's difficult to say if they would be included or not.

(Of course all of this confusion/blurring of what "race" and "ethnicity" mean leads to my personal opinion that URM status should be complete displaced by disadvantaged socioeconomic status when making admissions decisions...but of course that's a different discussion.)

 

[Zuras]

Okay, but you still would have to be recognized by the tribe IN ADDITION to being 1/4, right?

No, actually. You do not have to be a member of a tribe for AA consideration. You do have to be considered a member for any special government-native American benefits, though.

 

[tigress]

No, actually. You do not have to be a member of a tribe for AA consideration. You do have to be considered a member for any special government-native American benefits, though.

Like what kind of benefits? This is interesting.

 

[Zuras]

An article in yesterday's New York Times Magazine implied something slightly different. It did discuss CIB cards, but implied that many people are able to join tribes or sub-tribes based on American Indian ancestry that they discover through geneology, which I suspect means with less than 1/4 Indian blood.

I mentioned in my post that I'm both 1/8 native American and also in a tribe, so I'm not sure why you are confused.

 

[tigress]

I mentioned in my post that I'm both 1/8 native American and also in a tribe, so I'm not sure why you are confused.

I'm not confused. I'm wondering what you mean about having to be 1/4 to be considered Native American by the government, which is what you said. I'm just curious about this, since at one point when I was younger my father was looking into what was required if he wanted to join the Cherokee tribe.

 

[Zuras]

I'm not confused. I'm wondering what you mean about having to be 1/4 to be considered Native American by the government, which is what you said. I'm just curious about this, since at one point when I was younger my father was looking into what was required if he wanted to join the Cherokee tribe.

It works like this.

Each tribe establishes a standard % blood percent for admission to the tribe -- or not, some don't even require a percent, only that you have a native American ancestor. Once you are on the tribal registry, you can receive any benefits the tribe itself has created for its members(unless they are a casino-owning tribe there are little to no benefits), but NOT any benefits from the US government because: the government/state does not recognize persons with less than 25% NA blood to be considered NA.

 

[tigress]

It works like this.

Each tribe establishes a standard % blood percent for admission to the tribe -- or not, some don't even require a percent, only that you have a native American ancestor. Once you are on the tribal registry, you can receive any benefits the tribe itself has created for its members(unless they are a casino-owning tribe there are little to no benefits), but NOT any benefits from the US government because: the government/state does not recognize persons with less than 25% NA blood to be considered NA.

okay, thanks for the clarification

What sort of government benefits would this apply to? And for admissions to schools, do you know if there are guidelines for declaring oneself NA?

(I'm not looking to do this, I'm just wondering.)

 

[Zuras]

okay, thanks for the clarification

What sort of government benefits would this apply to? And for admissions to schools, do you know if there are guidelines for declaring oneself NA?

(I'm not looking to do this, I'm just wondering.)

AA preferences, grants etc. Anything that is orchestrated by the state/government. Everything. To the state/government, if you are under 25%, you are considered anything but native American, be it Asian, Caucasian, or black, you are whatever the remaining 76+% is.

 

[Shredder]

I mentioned in my post that I'm both 1/8 native American and also in a tribe, so I'm not sure why you are confused.

i cant resist--are you involved/going to be in any casinos? theres tons of money to be made. or lost, like me 🙁 (donald)

 

[Zuras]

i cant resist--are you involved/going to be in any casinos? theres tons of money to be made. or lost, like me 🙁 (donald)

Just need to find a way to get people to come out to the Dakotas. 😱

 

[Shredder]

Just need to find a way to get people to come out to the Dakotas. 😱

much too cold and barren, youll have to relocate but theres time. ill keep you in mind if i decide to open up some more taj mahals. maybe we can provide a built in clinic even.

 

[Zuras]

much too cold and barren, youll have to relocate but theres time. ill keep you in mind if i decide to open up some more taj mahals. maybe we can provide a built in clinic even.

Er. I'm not from the Dakotas. That's where the reservation is.

 

[riceman04]

Actually that isn't true. I'm an acknowledged member of an Indian tribe, but I can't claim I'm native American. (I'm 1/8 native American.) You need to be at least 1/4 native American by blood to be considered native American. It is a ridiculous double standard. Only native Americans have to prove they are a certain percent. This is recorded on your CIB card, which comes from the government.

I am also 1/8 native american! But I like to say..."I'm BLACK AND I'M PROUD"

 

[indo]

You're not native american unless you live on a reservation in a teepee next to a black jack table! J/k. I self identify as native american and white and I don't give a rat's ass what the adcoms think or require me to prove. I'm an indian and I have the driving record and liver to prove it. [/stereotype]

Zuras, is that howard stern in your avatar? 🙂

 

[Thundrstorm]

The racial designations on some of these apps irritate me. I'm black and white, and I like the ones where you can check off every race that you are, but on some, if it's a drop box, I just have to check one. One of the apps I filled out recently makes you state whether you are a URM or not, and then makes you choose one category, which I feel forced me to tell a half-truth, but whatever. If they want to know why I put other in the first box, and then black in the URM box, they can ask me about it.

As far as the native american designations, I learned during college apps that you need to have a tribal affiliation. I have some native american heritage, and thus it's part of my racial makeup, but I no longer put it on applications or official forms.

It's all a bit gray, isn't it?

 

[Zuras]

Zuras, is that howard stern in your avatar? 🙂

That's actually a picture of an older Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz, perhaps the smartest person to ever exist.

 

[sunnyjohn]

That's actually a picture of an older Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz, perhaps the smartest person to ever exist.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gottfried_Leibniz
Leibniz is credited with the term "function" (1694), which he used to describe a quantity related to a curve, such as a curve's slope or a specific point of said curve. Leibniz is generally, with Newton, jointly credited for the development of the modern calculus, in particular, for his development of the integral and the product rule. He also initiated the development of the modern idea of conservation of energy through his concept of vis viva.

 

[medhacker]

I'd love to see the resulting lawsuit. I know mulattos that are whiter than me.

Zuras you have a tendency of knowing the anomalies of the universe, first you knew a puerto rican who made you think all puerto ricans were fluent in english, and now a mulatto whiter than a white boy like you.

you err in not understanding that ethnicity does not necessarily equate to race. There are black, asian, arab, and white jews for example. The ethnicity being jewish. There are black, brown, yellow and white (yes albino ones) african-americans. The ethnicity being black.

When you check that ethnicity box, you better be prepared to be a social representation of that ethnicity. Adcoms are usually well versed in what one ethnic group represents (beyond race) and what not. You can't claim to be a hispanic only because your grand grand grand something was hispanic and you don't have the slightest cultural influence by the hispanic ethnicity. Whether you belong to an ethnicity will be evidenced in your application, what have you done, THE INTERVIEW, where have you lived.

Of course, this is not a perfect science, no science is perfect for that matter, so if you claim to be an ethnic group and you are not (remember not about race) you better be prepared to back that A#$ up, for if you turn into discrepancies and the ADCOMS pick it up now, OR 3 YEARS AFTER YOU GET ACCEPTED, you are in deep caca, dismmisal, degree forfeiture and more. You try to sue a medical institution because you claimed to be X ethnicity yet your culturall baggage is another see how you do...

 

[njbmd]

I just got into a debate w someone today about this. They were saying that if they put down that they were hispanic then they would get into a bunh of schools and that it would be possible to put down that you are a URM if you aren't-but i was pretty sure that you cant. Obviously this is unethical, illegal, etc.! but what is the formal way in which they check?

Hi there,
First of all, you overestimate the power of URM status. There are plenty of URMs out there with high GPAs and MCAT scores so every URM is not admitted automatically to medical school just by checking a box.

Second, anyone can check any racial or ethnic definition that they desire. You can have the bluest eyes and the most platinum blonde hair and declare that you are African-American or Native American or Latino. You are the only person who can designate your ethnicity and you can designate anything that you desire. It is NOT illegal for anyone to declare themselves anything.

If you truly believe that being a URM is going to confer such a great advantage on your application, then check the box and wait for all of those offers of admission to come in.

njbmd 😉

 

[Thundrstorm]

Zuras you have a tendency of knowing the anomalies of the universe, first you knew a puerto rican who made you think all puerto ricans were fluent in english, and now a mulatto whiter than a white boy like you.

you err in not understanding that ethnicity does not necessarily equate to race. There are black, asian, arab, and white jews for example. The ethnicity being jewish. There are black, brown, yellow and white (yes albino ones) african-americans. The ethnicity being black.

When you check that ethnicity box, you better be prepared to be a social representation of that ethnicity. Adcoms are usually well versed in what one ethnic group represents (beyond race) and what not. You can't claim to be a hispanic only because your grand grand grand something was hispanic and you don't have the slightest cultural influence by the hispanic ethnicity. Whether you belong to an ethnicity will be evidenced in your application, what have you done, THE INTERVIEW, where have you lived.

Of course, this is not a perfect science, no science is perfect for that matter, so if you claim to be an ethnic group and you are not (remember not about race) you better be prepared to back that A#$ up, for if you turn into discrepancies and the ADCOMS pick it up now, OR 3 YEARS AFTER YOU GET ACCEPTED, you are in deep caca, dismmisal, degree forfeiture and more. You try to sue a medical institution because you claimed to be X ethnicity yet your culturall baggage is another see how you do...

Jewish is not an ethnicity, and for goodness sake, can we all stop using the outdated term mulatto?

 

[Thundrstorm]

How you define yourself on your applications should reflect how you define yourself in life. If you have some URM ancestry but never claim it except in this process, you're being dishonest. If you look as white as white gets, but you have a black grandfather and claim both races as part of your heritage, by all means, put both on your app. It's not just about how you look. It all comes down to consistent self-identification.

 

[happydays]

about half of the applicants from every racial group is admitted.

Stop sweating over this!

 

[sunnyjohn]

Mulatto.

I haven't heard that one in a while!

 

[Zuras]

When you check that ethnicity box, you better be prepared to be a social representation of that ethnicity

Wow. I can't believe you said that. I didn't think blacks(or other URMs) were a "monolithic entity," but I guess I was wrong. "You are all the same." Met one? Met 'em all.

 

[tigress]

Jewish is not an ethnicity, and for goodness sake, can we all stop using the outdated term mulatto?

I think Jewish is an ethnicity.

 

[Thundrstorm]

I think Jewish is an ethnicity.

I suppose there is no universally accepted definition of ethnicity, but I would characterize Jewish as a term defining both a religious group and a set of customs or cultural traditions associated with that religion, and within Judaism, there are several common racial and ethnic groups. I suppose Sephardic Jews might be considered an ethnic group, in that they share not only religious, but also racial/nationality, historical, and language characteristics. Jews as a whole, though, don't strike me as one ethnic group. What do you think?

 

[indo]

Jewish is an ethnicity if your mom is jewish otherwise it is a religion.

 

[indo]

That's actually a picture of an older Gottfried Wilhelm von Leibniz, perhaps the smartest person to ever exist.

Haha. I couldn't have been more wrong.

 

[tigress]

I suppose there is no universally accepted definition of ethnicity, but I would characterize Jewish as a term defining both a religious group and a set of customs or cultural traditions associated with that religion, and within Judaism, there are several common racial and ethnic groups. I suppose Sephardic Jews might be considered an ethnic group, in that they share not only religious, but also racial/nationality, historical, and language characteristics. Jews as a whole, though, don't strike me as one ethnic group. What do you think?

Well, Judaism is certainly a religion (obviously). But there are many Jews who consider themselves Jewish in more of an ethnic way than in any religious way. I would agree that there may be multiple groups; Ashkenazic Jews certainly have a shared ethnic background, even though there are differences even within that group. Sephardic Jews share an ethnic background, as you say. And then other groups like Persian and Yemenite Jews are sort of their own ethnicities, as well as groups like Ethiopian Jews.

So, perhaps you could say Ashkenazic Jewish is an ethnicity. This just points to why these designations are somewhat arbitrary. Because, as I said before, many people in the US consider themselves Jewish and have a Jewish identity but do not practice Judaism as a religion. So what do they identify with? The ethnic background (or at least the food 😛). But, as you point out, there is not ONE Jewish ethnicity. I would also suggest that there isn't ONE hispanic ethnicity, either. OTOH, my friends who are Sephardic Jews share a great deal of ethnic background with me, and I'm an Ashkenazic Jew. However, this might be due simply to the religious aspects, and it is very difficult to seperate the two.

indo, I'm not sure what your mother's being Jewish has to do with ethnicity. That's a purely religious concept: if your mother is Jewish, you are also Jewish according to Jewish law. Of course you could also convert to Judaism (again, a religious concept), and in that case you would be Jewish without your mother being Jewish. However, within the realm of Americans who identify as ethnically Jewish, there are certainly those who do not have a Jewish mother. From the perspective of Jewish religious law they are not actually Jewish (a religious identification), but they consider themselves Jewish (as an ethnic identification).

 

[Thundrstorm]

Well, Judaism is certainly a religion (obviously). But there are many Jews who consider themselves Jewish in more of an ethnic way than in any religious way. I would agree that there may be multiple groups; Ashkenazic Jews certainly have a shared ethnic background, even though there are differences even within that group. Sephardic Jews share an ethnic background, as you say. And then other groups like Persian and Yemenite Jews are sort of their own ethnicities, as well as groups like Ethiopian Jews.

So, perhaps you could say Ashkenazic Jewish is an ethnicity. This just points to why these designations are somewhat arbitrary. Because, as I said before, many people in the US consider themselves Jewish and have a Jewish identity but do not practice Judaism as a religion. So what do they identify with? The ethnic background (or at least the food 😛). But, as you point out, there is not ONE Jewish ethnicity. I would also suggest that there isn't ONE hispanic ethnicity, either. OTOH, my friends who are Sephardic Jews share a great deal of ethnic background with me, and I'm an Ashkenazic Jew. However, this might be due simply to the religious aspects, and it is very difficult to seperate the two.

indo, I'm not sure what your mother's being Jewish has to do with ethnicity. That's a purely religious concept: if your mother is Jewish, you are also Jewish according to Jewish law. Of course you could also convert to Judaism (again, a religious concept), and in that case you would be Jewish without your mother being Jewish. However, within the realm of Americans who identify as ethnically Jewish, there are certainly those who do not have a Jewish mother. From the perspective of Jewish religious law they are not actually Jewish (a religious identification), but they consider themselves Jewish (as an ethnic identification).

Tigress, I think we're basically saying the same thing but with different words. One of my best friends considers herself Jewish, but does not believe in Judaism as a religion. She partakes in the customs, identifies as Jewish, loves the food, etc. It is all very arbitrary when you try to define it. People don't fit in boxes that neatly. 🙂

 

[tigress]

Tigress, I think we're basically saying the same thing but with different words. One of my best friends considers herself Jewish, but does not believe in Judaism as a religion. She partakes in the customs, identifies as Jewish, loves the food, etc. It is all very arbitrary when you try to define it. People don't fit in boxes that neatly. 🙂

Yup, exactly. You actually put it quite well in your earlier post. I just wanted to expand on some of those things.

It's very difficult to define ethnicity, or race for that matter. And I suppose these lines are becoming much more fluid in the modern world.

 

[indo]

indo, I'm not sure what your mother's being Jewish has to do with ethnicity. That's a purely religious concept: if your mother is Jewish, you are also Jewish according to Jewish law. Of course you could also convert to Judaism (again, a religious concept), and in that case you would be Jewish without your mother being Jewish. However, within the realm of Americans who identify as ethnically Jewish, there are certainly those who do not have a Jewish mother. From the perspective of Jewish religious law they are not actually Jewish (a religious identification), but they consider themselves Jewish (as an ethnic identification).

That was the only definite description of jewish ethinicity my jewish friends could come up with and it doesn't really make sense but it is the traditional rule. In the end we decided that your ethnicity is how you self-identify. This means that Michael Jackson IS a caucasian woman!

It might be possible to divide up the ethnicities by some kind of DNA sequence characterization but how reliable would that be with all the inter-ethnic crossmojination that goes on? I don't know.

 

[ClearDay]

That was the only definite description of jewish ethinicity my jewish friends could come up with and it doesn't really make sense but it is the traditional rule. In the end we decided that your ethnicity is how you self-identify. This means that Michael Jackson IS a caucasian woman!

It might be possible to divide up the ethnicities by some kind of DNA sequence characterization but how reliable would that be with all the inter-ethnic crossmojination that goes on? I don't know.

I'm pretty sure you can't do DNA sequencing to categorize ethnicity. It's not your DNA that dictates your ethnicity, it's your culture. For example, you can be white hispanics, black hispanics, etc.

 

[JTHURMA]

http://www.kulanu.org/old/jewishdna.html

I'm pretty sure you can't do DNA sequencing to categorize ethnicity. It's not your DNA that dictates your ethnicity, it's your culture. For example, you can be white hispanics, black hispanics, etc.

 

[Chrissy]

I think it's interesting how the most recent anthropologic literature is saying there is no such thing as "races" at all and there is actually more variation within perceieved races than between races. That idea seems to be the latest trend among academics, yet at these very same institutions the admissions committees acknowledge and sometimes evaluate based on "race". It looks like they're walking a fine line between progression and poltical correctedness. interesting...

 

[sunnyjohn]

Question.

Do we submit the DNA test results with the AAMC? Are they seperate from the MCAT or do we just show up a bit early and get in the queue?

 

[riceman04]

Hi there,
First of all, you overestimate the power of URM status. There are plenty of URMs out there with high GPAs and MCAT scores so every URM is not admitted automatically to medical school just by checking a box.

Second, anyone can check any racial or ethnic definition that they desire. You can have the bluest eyes and the most platinum blonde hair and declare that you are African-American or Native American or Latino. You are the only person who can designate your ethnicity and you can designate anything that you desire. It is NOT illegal for anyone to declare themselves anything.

If you truly believe that being a URM is going to confer such a great advantage on your application, then check the box and wait for all of those offers of admission to come in.

njbmd 😉

Preach brotha Preach!
There are very few afr. amer. in medical school.

in 2003 there were only 80-89 afr. amer. males in medical school (national)...these are dismal stats.

 

[MoosePilot]

And for admissions to schools, do you know if there are guidelines for declaring oneself NA?

(I'm not looking to do this, I'm just wondering.)

I asked AAMC this question and they said this (I'm having to trim the email to a few lines, because I've tried to post this 3x, but it locks SDN up every time even though it's only about 10 line email):

Thank you for contacting AMCAS.

There is no policy procedure set in place for designating a racial status.

We leave this totally up to the applicant to choose.

 

[MoosePilot]

I'm pretty sure you can't do DNA sequencing to categorize ethnicity. It's not your DNA that dictates your ethnicity, it's your culture. For example, you can be white hispanics, black hispanics, etc.

There has been work with Native American DNA. I don't know if it was good science or went anywhere, but I saw it somewhere.