How do doctors keep from becoming dinguses?

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drdrphysicianscientist

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I've heard of doctors developing a "God complex" (inflated egos, thinking they know best, etc.) and it seems easy to see how that happens. There is a recent ongoing thread about how it can be offensive when people assume you are a nurse, not a doctor, and why it is wrong for NP's to call themselves doctors. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against those arguments.

I am wondering how we, as physicians, can walk that line between being the leader of a healthcare team and take ownership of our extensive training, without looking down upon other health-care workers (nurses, NP's, PA's, etc.) for their less complete understanding (even if they think they know better). Basically, after I am done my 7-9 years MD/PhD and 4-7 years residency+fellowship, how to I keep myself from turning into a pretentious jerk?
 
Realize that without NPs doing nursing, and PAs doing physician assisting, our practices and clinics would collapse, as would our health care system.
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
I've heard of doctors developing a "God complex" (inflated egos, thinking they know best, etc.) and it seems easy to see how that happens. There is a recent ongoing thread about how it can be offensive when people assume you are a nurse, not a doctor, and why it is wrong for NP's to call themselves doctors. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against those arguments.

I am wondering how we, as physicians, can walk that line between being the leader of a healthcare team and take ownership of our extensive training, without looking down upon other health-care workers (nurses, NP's, PA's, etc.) for their less complete understanding (even if they think they know better). Basically, after I am done my 7-9 years MD/PhD and 4-7 years residency+fellowship, how to I keep myself from turning into a pretentious jerk?
Click to expand...

remind yourself that it's ok to not refer to those with an MS as PhD...it doesn't mean the MS is a bad person or not smart, they just aren't a PhD, in the same way that apples aren't orange no matter how good they are
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
I've heard of doctors developing a "God complex" (inflated egos, thinking they know best, etc.) and it seems easy to see how that happens. There is a recent ongoing thread about how it can be offensive when people assume you are a nurse, not a doctor, and why it is wrong for NP's to call themselves doctors. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against those arguments.

I am wondering how we, as physicians, can walk that line between being the leader of a healthcare team and take ownership of our extensive training, without looking down upon other health-care workers (nurses, NP's, PA's, etc.) for their less complete understanding (even if they think they know better). Basically, after I am done my 7-9 years MD/PhD and 4-7 years residency+fellowship, how to I keep myself from turning into a pretentious jerk?
Click to expand...

:troll::troll::troll:
 
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This is not advice on how not to be a jerk as a doctor. It is about how to be a decent human being, whatever your profession:

Have a little humility. Realize that no matter how much work you personally did to get where you are, you were only able to put in that work due to certain accidents of birth. You happened to be born in a place and time that were conducive, your own health happened to be adequate, resources were available to you. None of that is something that you did. You were lucky. Look around and realize that other people might not have had the same set of advantages, or, if they did, they might not have known how to exploit them in quite the way you did. Remember that all people are kin to you, how ever distant, and that if anyone seems particularly wretched, there but for Fortune would you have gone.

We are all just a bunch of monkeys on a lonely mudball twirling in space. We all have our demons and doubts, and we are all just looking for ways to help us get through the nights when those keep us awake. Whatever you can do to be kind to another person, to comfort them, or help them get through another day... that is the most important thing you can possibly do with your time. If we all look out for one another, we can make this place a little nicer for everyone. You can't change the whole world, and you don't need to. Just tend to your patch of it. Do what good you can within your reach, and trust your fellow primates to do their part, too. Definitely don't waste time checking up on them to see if they are keeping up with you. Just tend to your own garden and be ready to lend a hand to others.

This is the secret of happiness.
 
Promethean said:
This is not advice on how not to be a jerk as a doctor. It is about how to be a decent human being, whatever your profession:

Have a little humility. Realize that no matter how much work you personally did to get where you are, you were only able to put in that work due to certain accidents of birth. You happened to be born in a place and time that were conducive, your own health happened to be adequate, resources were available to you. None of that is something that you did. You were lucky. Look around and realize that other people might not have had the same set of advantages, or, if they did, they might not have known how to exploit them in quite the way you did. Remember that all people are kin to you, how ever distant, and that if anyone seems particularly wretched, there but for Fortune would you have gone.

We are all just a bunch of monkeys on a lonely mudball twirling in space. We all have our demons and doubts, and we are all just looking for ways to help us get through the nights when those keep us awake. Whatever you can do to be kind to another person, to comfort them, or help them get through another day... that is the most important thing you can possibly do with your time. If we all look out for one another, we can make this place a little nicer for everyone. You can't change the whole world, and you don't need to. Just tend to your patch of it. Do what good you can within your reach, and trust your fellow primates to do their part, too. Definitely don't waste time checking up on them to see if they are keeping up with you. Just tend to your own garden and be ready to lend a hand to others.

This is the secret of happiness.
Click to expand...

^^^Sooo this
 
Promethean said:
This is not advice on how not to be a jerk as a doctor. It is about how to be a decent human being, whatever your profession:

Have a little humility. Realize that no matter how much work you personally did to get where you are, you were only able to put in that work due to certain accidents of birth. You happened to be born in a place and time that were conducive, your own health happened to be adequate, resources were available to you. None of that is something that you did. You were lucky. Look around and realize that other people might not have had the same set of advantages, or, if they did, they might not have known how to exploit them in quite the way you did. Remember that all people are kin to you, how ever distant, and that if anyone seems particularly wretched, there but for Fortune would you have gone.

We are all just a bunch of monkeys on a lonely mudball twirling in space. We all have our demons and doubts, and we are all just looking for ways to help us get through the nights when those keep us awake. Whatever you can do to be kind to another person, to comfort them, or help them get through another day... that is the most important thing you can possibly do with your time. If we all look out for one another, we can make this place a little nicer for everyone. You can't change the whole world, and you don't need to. Just tend to your patch of it. Do what good you can within your reach, and trust your fellow primates to do their part, too. Definitely don't waste time checking up on them to see if they are keeping up with you. Just tend to your own garden and be ready to lend a hand to others.

This is the secret of happiness.
Click to expand...
The other way to look at this is that you were lucky enough to be in a position where you have a benefit over others and you should use that to the maximum.
 
OP seems legit, don't know why the first few replies were harsh.

It's common sense to acknowledge that the huge disparity in education between doctors and RN/PA/NPP leads to frustrating interactions down the road.

Case in point: I remember an ED nurse refused to discharge a patient because she was too hypertensive. The ED physician was stuck arguing with the RN, her superior RN, the charge nurse, and finally the administrative ARNP before finally getting the patient discharged. The whole affair took 2 hours.
 
akm2f.jpg
 
Jabbed said:
Case in point: I remember an ED nurse refused to discharge a patient because she was too hypertensive. The ED physician was stuck arguing with the RN, her superior RN, the charge nurse, and finally the administrative ARNP before finally getting the patient discharged. The whole affair took 2 hours.
Click to expand...

I have been that nurse that told a physician that something he wanted to do was the wrong thing for the patient, and that I would not participate. He took it up a similar chain until he reached a nursing administrator who let him get away with it.

The patient was harmed by the action. He is lucky that they chose not to sue.

The doctor has more education than me or the other nurses who told him no, and he used that fact to get his way. He later apologized to me and has never given me any grief again when I have said that I think something is unsafe. Instead, we have worked together to find a solution that meets his needs without compromising patient care. Building collegial rather than adversarial relationships with other members of the health care team lets you avoid these kinds of confrontations.
 
Promethean said:
I have been that nurse that told a physician that something he wanted to do was the wrong thing for the patient, and that I would not participate. He took it up a similar chain until he reached a nursing administrator who let him get away with it.

The patient was harmed by the action. He is lucky that they chose not to sue.

The doctor has more education than me or the other nurses who told him no, and he used that fact to get his way. He later apologized to me and has never given me any grief again when I have said that I think something is unsafe. Instead, we have worked together to find a solution that meets his needs without compromising patient care. Building collegial rather than adversarial relationships with other members of the health care team lets you avoid these kinds of confrontations.
Click to expand...
So you were right that one time, cool. Generally speaking though, the person with more education and experience knows better. That's the whole point.
 
tdram said:
So you were right that one time, cool. Generally speaking though, the person with more education and experience knows better. That's the whole point.
Click to expand...

The point is that nursing has a purpose other than blindly following physician orders. Even the most educated and experienced person can be dead wrong.

We get accused of being "obstructionists" in the OR and elsewhere, but those obstructions are sometimes necessary opportunities to catch mistakes before they happen.

Value the people who say, hey, wait a minute. They might just save your a** someday.
 
Promethean said:
The point is that nursing has a purpose other than blindly following physician orders. Even the most educated and experienced person can be dead wrong.

We get accused of being "obstructionists" in the OR and elsewhere, but those obstructions are sometimes necessary opportunities to catch mistakes before they happen.

Value the people who say, hey, wait a minute. They might just save your a** someday.
Click to expand...

And what greater education and experience do you have to be sure you're right?

Sure you can provide your opinion, but you shouldn't stand in the way of someone far more experienced when they don't agree with you. You might be right once in a while, but chances are you're not the vast majority of times.
 
(I didn't read the previous comments). An attending and I were just talking about this. He said there is so much to know, and one cannot possibly know everything regardless of the years of training. We learn from our mistakes, and end up learning more from our patients. Basically, the more you learn, the more you realize that there is so much more we don't understand. He said that's what has made him more humble over the years. This guy is a child neurologist fyi.

It's sad that even some MS1s have this god complex already. They think they are doctors already, and treat other colleagues as their "nurses." Hopefully, we will all grow out of this perception of ourselves.
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
I've heard of doctors developing a "God complex" (inflated egos, thinking they know best, etc.) and it seems easy to see how that happens. There is a recent ongoing thread about how it can be offensive when people assume you are a nurse, not a doctor, and why it is wrong for NP's to call themselves doctors. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against those arguments.

I am wondering how we, as physicians, can walk that line between being the leader of a healthcare team and take ownership of our extensive training, without looking down upon other health-care workers (nurses, NP's, PA's, etc.) for their less complete understanding (even if they think they know better). Basically, after I am done my 7-9 years MD/PhD and 4-7 years residency+fellowship, how to I keep myself from turning into a pretentious jerk?
Click to expand...
If you have to ask, then you're in trouble. That being said you should try trolling harder. You get 2/10 for that performance.
 
Sikkunt said:
how dare the person who takes all the blame want to do things his way!!!
Click to expand...

I agree. like god forbid someone after like 7-12 years of graduate training actually have a high self-esteem. They should be all knowing, and also completely down to earth. They should also work for free, and give ponies out to all patients. Until these things can happen, we need to strive for change.

not srs.
 
tdram said:
And what greater education and experience do you have to be sure you're right?

Sure you can provide your opinion, but you shouldn't stand in the way of someone far more experienced when they don't agree with you. You might be right once in a while, but chances are you're not the vast majority of times.
Click to expand...

It isn't that I am sure that I am right, or that I am sure that the other professional is wrong.

It is that, when there is a disagreement about a matter of consequence to another human being's life and health, it is worth taking a moment to respectfully disagree and seek additional resources in order to make the decision that is in the best interest of the patient. I don't claim to know more than my physician colleagues, but when their only support for a questionable decision is "because I know more than you, and I said so," then my professional responsibility is to request a better answer.

http://depts.washington.edu/bioethx/topics/team.html
 
Promethean said:
Oh, good. Glad to know my license is never on the line as long as I just followed the physician's orders, no matter how outrageous! Oh, wait...
Click to expand...
Don't worry, the attorney won't be suing you bc you're low hanging fruit as far as collecting money for damages in concerned. The physician on the other hand doesn't get that luxury.
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
Basically, after I am done my 7-9 years MD/PhD and 4-7 years residency+fellowship, how to I keep myself from turning into a pretentious jerk?
Click to expand...
If you get an MD/PhD, residency and fellowship, you will be a specialist among specialists.

If after such an education you somehow do not know more than literally everybody about your chosen area, your whole education was a waste - and considering you'll have spent 16 years of your adult life on it, your entire young adult life will have been a waste as well.

On the one hand yes, it is important to treat people with respect and acknowledge that they perform vital functions in the world of healthcare and that we all have our role to play.

On the other hand, if it is the case, it is important to be comfortable with the fact that the only person who knows more than you is God, and to carry yourself appropriately.

FWIW, this is coming from somebody who intends to choose a less intensive specialty geared more towards work/life balance.
 
Promethean said:
It isn't that I am sure that I am right, or that I am sure that the other professional is wrong.

It is that, when there is a disagreement about a matter of consequence to another human being's life and health, it is worth taking a moment to respectfully disagree and seek additional resources in order to make the decision that is in the best interest of the patient. I don't claim to know more than my physician colleagues, but when their only support for a questionable decision is "because I know more than you, and I said so," then my professional responsibility is to request a better answer.

http://depts.washington.edu/bioethx/topics/team.html
Click to expand...

True. But the other side of the coin are nurses that frequently question orders wasting patient care time. Nurses nowadays are more educated and more empowered. Good- until they try to equate their opinion to the attending's. I'd like to propose a new term for some nurses- "doctor complex."
 
How do docs keep from being dinguses?

Easy. They remain to act like normal human beings. And have laid back personalities 😀
 
KnuxNole said:
How do docs keep from being dinguses?

Easy. They remain to act like normal human beings. And have laid back personalities 😀
Click to expand...
(Trying very hard not to make a General Surgery crack)
 
LivingEdge said:
If you get an MD/PhD, residency and fellowship, you will be a specialist among specialists....

On the other hand, if it is the case, it is important to be comfortable with the fact that the only person who knows more than you is God, and to carry yourself appropriately.
Click to expand...

This is what I'm worried about. FWIW, I'm not trolling. My intended career path is the be a specialist among specialists, doing the research that pushes a field ahead. Unfortunately, some of the MD/PhDs I have met that have the kind of career I dream of do not have the greatest personalities. I'm looking for thoughts on how to prevent myself from turning out the same.
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
This is what I'm worried about. FWIW, I'm not trolling. My intended career path is the be a specialist among specialists, doing the research that pushes a field ahead. Unfortunately, some of the MD/PhDs I have met that have the kind of career I dream of do not have the greatest personalities. I'm looking for thoughts on how to prevent myself from turning out the same.
Click to expand...
You're shocked that the people who push the specialty forward (in specialist medicine) don't have the best personalities? You shouldn't be. That being said, I think they key is to stay grounded, and humble and not get too caught up in your laurels.
 
Promethean said:
I have been that nurse that told a physician that something he wanted to do was the wrong thing for the patient, and that I would not participate. He took it up a similar chain until he reached a nursing administrator who let him get away with it.

The patient was harmed by the action. He is lucky that they chose not to sue.

The doctor has more education than me or the other nurses who told him no, and he used that fact to get his way. He later apologized to me and has never given me any grief again when I have said that I think something is unsafe. Instead, we have worked together to find a solution that meets his needs without compromising patient care. Building collegial rather than adversarial relationships with other members of the health care team lets you avoid these kinds of confrontations.
Click to expand...

I feel like the nurses like to show off that one time they were right and the doctor was wrong like a loaded shotgun. The other hundred times they were completely wrong in a similar scenario just gets shoved under the rug.

Nurses play a vital role, but it's strange to me when they act like they signed up for something completely different than what the job entails.

Anyway, I just stay cordial with everyone, but I make it known that I won't take ****. They know im not a jerk, but I won't put up with any bs.

Edit: really? it autocorrects to 'dingus' lol
 
DermViser said:
If you have to ask, then you're in trouble. That being said you should try trolling harder. You get 2/10 for that performance.
Click to expand...
If it was trolling, I think your score was quite generous. However, frighteningly, I'm not so sure he/she is trolling.
 
DermViser said:
(Trying very hard not to make a General Surgery crack)
Click to expand...

To be fair, it is entertaining hearing the surgery intern rant about IT not immediately unlocking the team's excel list because the tech is eating dinner right after hearing the intern lose the attitude test the second the tech picked up the phone.
 
RJGOP said:
If it was trolling, I think your score was quite generous. However, frighteningly, I'm not so sure he/she is trolling.
Click to expand...
If he isn't trolling, then it's even scarier that he/she has to ask people on the Internet for tips on how to keep from becoming a "pretentious jerk".
 
Siggy said:
To be fair, it is entertaining hearing the surgery intern rant about IT not immediately unlocking the team's excel list because the tech is eating dinner right after hearing the intern lose the attitude test the second the tech picked up the phone.
Click to expand...
That's what I thought was funny - they expected everyone else in the hospital to 1) have a perfectionist attitude and 2) to put the needs of others ahead of their own. Quite out-of-touch with the way the rest of America lives where their occupation is just a job for them.
 
DermViser said:
That's what I thought was funny - they expected everyone else in the hospital to 1) have a perfectionist attitude and 2) to put the needs of others ahead of their own. Quite out-of-touch with the way the rest of America lives where their occupation is just a job for them.
Click to expand...

I'm sorry, is that expectation a bad thing? We're not playing tiddlywinks here.
 
VisionaryTics said:
I'm sorry, is that expectation a bad thing? We're not playing tiddlywinks here.
Click to expand...

Not a bad thing, just an unrealistic thing.

We live in a little bubble, a world quite different from other people. For most people, doing one's job efficiently and well is not a literal matter of life and death. Most people can actually slack a fair amount and the worst that will come of it is some minor annoyance for their customer. We lack that comfort.
 
VisionaryTics said:
I'm sorry, is that expectation a bad thing? We're not playing tiddlywinks here.
Click to expand...
No one said it's a bad thing. It is, however, completely unrealistic. I'm guessing you're a future surgeon-in-training. If that's the case, be prepared for unending frustration when other people don't have the same value set and don't immediately drop what they're doing to do what you want them to do.
 
VisionaryTics said:
I'm sorry, is that expectation a bad thing? We're not playing tiddlywinks here.
Click to expand...

Usually perfectionists tend to be really uptight and not very fun people to hang out with whatsoever 🙁

I'm the complete opposite of a Type-A person, so I could never understand those people's personality type, but can respect it. There are some of those peeps in the medicine world.
 
KnuxNole said:
Usually perfectionists tend to be really uptight and not very fun people to hang out with whatsoever 🙁

I'm the complete opposite of a Type-A person, so I could never understand those people's personality type, but can respect it. There are some of those peeps in the medicine world.
Click to expand...
Bingo. The problem with perfectionism is that you're NEVER satisfied bc other people will NEVER meet your expectations both at work and at home, and you won't be given slack bc you're angry at other people not meeting your expectations. It may work on the medical student rotating with you who is trying to go for Honors, but even they'll be sick of you when the month is over.

I can understand the Type-A anal retentiveness that medical school creates - it helps you ace exams, study hard for the boards, etc. at the same time it's important to realize when it's destructive and unproductive.
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
This is what I'm worried about. FWIW, I'm not trolling. My intended career path is the be a specialist among specialists, doing the research that pushes a field ahead. Unfortunately, some of the MD/PhDs I have met that have the kind of career I dream of do not have the greatest personalities. I'm looking for thoughts on how to prevent myself from turning out the same.
Click to expand...

It seems clear that you have an idea of what sort of character traits you want to avoid. I suggest regularly dedicating some time to self improvement, either secular or religious in nature, specifically with focus on an ideal or role model - a positive goal of "I want to become like this" rather than a negative goal of "I want to stop being like this/avoid becoming like that."

The doctors I've known who have been stellar human beings seem to have it in common that they are either religious or philosophical, and definitely think about their lives quite a lot. There may be other ways to preserve or improve personal character during a medical career, but these are the themes I've noticed that seem to be successful.
 
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drdrphysicianscientist said:
I've heard of doctors developing a "God complex" (inflated egos, thinking they know best, etc.) and it seems easy to see how that happens. There is a recent ongoing thread about how it can be offensive when people assume you are a nurse, not a doctor, and why it is wrong for NP's to call themselves doctors. To be clear, I'm not arguing for or against those arguments.

I am wondering how we, as physicians, can walk that line between being the leader of a healthcare team and take ownership of our extensive training, without looking down upon other health-care workers (nurses, NP's, PA's, etc.) for their less complete understanding (even if they think they know better). Basically, after I am done my 7-9 years MD/PhD and 4-7 years residency+fellowship, how to I keep myself from turning into a pretentious jerk?
Click to expand...
Well MD is the best so we should be held to a higher standard
 
Last edited:
VisionaryTics said:
I'm sorry, is that expectation a bad thing? We're not playing tiddlywinks here.
Click to expand...

Not necessarily, but at a minimum don't immediately give the person you're trying to get to go out of their way to help them a reason to not go out of the way. Failing the attitude test is exactly that.
 
Jabbed said:
OP seems legit, don't know why the first few replies were harsh.

It's common sense to acknowledge that the huge disparity in education between doctors and RN/PA/NPP leads to frustrating interactions down the road.

Case in point: I remember an ED nurse refused to discharge a patient because she was too hypertensive. The ED physician was stuck arguing with the RN, her superior RN, the charge nurse, and finally the administrative ARNP before finally getting the patient discharged. The whole affair took 2 hours.
Click to expand...

Easier move for the doc would have been to discuss with the nurse why it was safe to discharge, and if the nurse was still uncomfortable with it, do the discharge without that nurse.
 
TooMuchResearch said:
Easier move for the doc would have been to discuss with the nurse why it was safe to discharge, and if the nurse was still uncomfortable with it, do the discharge without that nurse.
Click to expand...
There was a long conversation explaining the danger of rapidly correcting asymptomatic hypertension, but apparently there is a specific nursing protocol that forbade discharging a patient with "unstable vital signs". From that point on it literally became a matter of the nursing and administrative staff haggling over what bp reading the ED physician was willing to bring her down to.

This might be regional or state policy, but only the nurse is allowed to provide discharge paperwork to the patient.
 
drdrphysicianscientist said:
I am wondering how we, as physicians, can walk that line between being the leader of a healthcare team and take ownership of our extensive training, without looking down upon other health-care workers (nurses, NP's, PA's, etc.) for their less complete understanding (even if they think they know better.
Click to expand...

What makes you think physicians are leaders of the healthcare team?
 
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