I attend a large public university in Fairfax, VA.
(I don't think I'm allowed to tell you the name of the school)
(I don't think I'm allowed to tell you the name of the school)
How do I know if my undergraduate university is an easy school
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It's easy, just look around. Are there a lot of classmates who aren't the sharpest crayons in the box?
Darn...
It's actually more terrible than in high school. At least in high school, I could easily find myself a group of studious people. But at this school, I feel like all the people who didn't study well in HS are concentrated here.
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Generally speaking, the selectivity of your undergrad is a good indicator of it's difficulty level (the lower it's acceptance rate, the more competitive it likely is). Also, if your school is a larger research institution, they aim for the bright kids. The schools that come to mind in Virginia, at least for me, are college of William and Mary, UVA, and to an extent, Virginia tech.
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I've seen time and time again it doesn't matter where you go to undergrad as long as you do well and have a good DAT score to back it up. If you have a 4.0 and 17 Dat that could be an issue, but if you get that 20+ they won't put much emphasis on it
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Just do well wherever you are. That is what matters.
If you feel like you don't learn enough in your classes, yet still receive A's, supplement your learning with textbooks or other resources. If you spend the time to learn your material more in depth, you will be more likely to nail the DAT and excel in DS.
Make the best of where you are, and you will be fine.
If you feel like you don't learn enough in your classes, yet still receive A's, supplement your learning with textbooks or other resources. If you spend the time to learn your material more in depth, you will be more likely to nail the DAT and excel in DS.
Make the best of where you are, and you will be fine.
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Another good indicator is how many classmates cheat during exams in addition to copying other people's lab reports, papers, etc. The lesser schools tend to possess a higher concentration of these types.
Just achieve a high GPA as it doesn't really matter what school you attended as long as it's not a CC. Schools will differentiate between CC and 4-year colleges. Unless you attend Harvard, Stanford, MIT or Cal Tech, you won't get the benefit of doubt for a lower GPA.
Just achieve a high GPA as it doesn't really matter what school you attended as long as it's not a CC. Schools will differentiate between CC and 4-year colleges. Unless you attend Harvard, Stanford, MIT or Cal Tech, you won't get the benefit of doubt for a lower GPA.
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How do you know this?
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I think it matters to some schools. I had an advising appointment with a dental school and the adviser told me they do look at the level of difficulty of the undergrad students went to. How can they not? Some schools just give a higher percentage of A's than others. However, I do agree that a 3.0 at a difficult university is not going to look better than a 3.7 at an "easier" university.
This just isn't true. I attend a school that isn't even ranked nationally (Eastern Michigan University) which is less than 5 miles from a top 30 school (University of Michigan).
I go to school at Eastern but I work in Ann Arbor at a bar with 40 Michigan students. I work and play in Ann Arbor so a majority of the friends I have go to Michigan. I can say without any hesitation that among the groups of friends that I have there are proportionally a much larger number of students at Michigan who do exactly what you said here than there are at Eastern.
As far as the difficulty of your undergrad, my school and U of M use the exact same science textbooks (for General Bio and Gchem as well as Ochem), so I've never exactly determined what exactly separates a "good" school from a "bad" one.
I will say this...as far as EMU and UM are concerned, there doesn't seem to be a large difference between class/test material...the difference between my two schools rests more in terms of the student body and the teaching staff. UM has better profs, and better students. It's harder to stay ahead of the curve when there are literally 1,000 other people just as determined as you are.
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You know your "undergrad university" is easy when putting your name on the paper earns you a C and the vast majority of your colleagues earn A(s) or B(s) with little or no effort.
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=527335
http://forums.studentdoctor.net/showthread.php?t=527335
there are several students at vcu dentistry who attended gmu. i think undergraduate difficulty is taken into account but only in a minor way. i don't think you can say there are any particular feeder schools for vcu dentistry - there are probably more kids in my class who went to hampden-sidney than anywhere else.
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Whoa, buddy. First of all, the cheating thing is absolute nonsense. People cheat everywhere, at EMU and at UMICH. 80% of my friends go to Michigan (I go here) and, as far as I know, most of them (not all) do not mention anything about cheating or even devise any sort of cheating. We work our butts off because cheating on 2 or 3 multiple choice answers (anything more is hard as heck during our exams.. trust me... and for free responses, it's not even possible).. won't change your grade by that much, if at all. Also, most of us know it definitely won't get you anywhere. You actually need to study your BUTT OFF for even a B or a B+ at best, most times. In each exam we have multiple proctors who constantly walk down the aisles monitoring everything we do. Now, can you still cheat here? Yeah, absolutely. It's not worth it, though. I don't know who your friends are but they definitely do not represent the entire campus.
In terms of difficulty, maybe both schools use the same books, but they are MUCH DIFFERENT, difficulty wise. Let me tell you something that upset me when I heard this. Our orgo 1 and orgo 2 exams are 85% fill in the box with a reagent, mechanism, something insane, etc. and 15% multiple choice. The exams are hard as hell and yes, the professors challenge us like none other. A friend of mine goes to Michigan State University (not even EMU) and their orgo exams are 100% multiple choice (from what I heard). It's actually quite unfair but that's fine because I feel more prepared for the DAT and for harder classes to come. Also I have a friend who goes here and has a sister who goes to EMU (both studying the same subjects). Same story.
Try taking a class at UofM and then you'll understand. I took a physics class at EMU as a guest student because it was notoriously insane to get a B+ here at U of M, and I ended up with a 98% at EMU. It was one of the easiest classes I have taken, hands down. There was NO NEED to cheat because the test was easily manageable. I also took Physics 1 at another local university and ended up with a 103% while studying for a total of 10 hours throughout the course. Coming off those two experiences, I realized how difficult our school challenges us and how much "easier" some other schools are. I remember the answers to the questions on my physics exams were extremely obvious or the problems came straight from the homework. At UofM, they try to trick you and you have to be on your toes for every single question to even think about getting an A. In most cases, they'll also throw in a couple impossible questions that only the very brightest will get 🙁 (also, there's no E.C. whatsoever, and teachers will not round up even if you are a few points from the cut-off line).
In terms of applying to dental school, it is very unfair. I work my butt off to maintain a 3.4 science GPA here, whereas I could go to an "easier" college and easily maintain a 3.8-9 with half the work. I talked with the adviser at UofM's dental school and they do take that into account, but not by much. I would rather take the easy way and have a 3.8 gpa because honestly, it is a numbers game (for the most part) when applying to dental school.
You're right, they don't represent the entire campus, which is why I said "my group of friends."
The only fact that I can claim is that in my group of friends, more UM students cheat. This may sound silly, but aside from simply having someone else do your homework...I quite honestly don't even know HOW to cheat in college. Finding some way to cheat on an exam is something that I really never even thought about doing. With that said, I don't know how anyone...from either school...cheats, but whenever a question comes up they all say "I don't know I cheated my way through that class." I remember a Chemistry question that I had, and out of the 7 people at work that night, 3 of them had a science related degree, and they all said that...so that one incident may have made enough of an impact that I now have a misconception about how many people cheat...but those 3 are not the only people I know who have said that. As a matter of fact, I have been paid to write papers for people on more than one occasion.
So the point is that I don't think everyone at Michigan (or any other school) cheats, but I don't think that you can judge a school based on how many people cheat either.
As far as the school vs. school argument, I don't even attempt to figure that out anymore. There is no doubt that Michigan is a better school, and in terms of being harder...I am undecided about what exactly makes it harder. I don't really know just how much of a difference there is in material. I would be extremely interested to compare exams from both schools.
For the record, I still have exams from Gchem and there are zero multiple choice. They are all word problems. I've heard that Orgo is the same way (which I take this semester..so I don't have first-hand knowledge).
I will also say that I am STILL arguing a grade in chemistry II. I have a 92. 45 which is an A-. A 93 is an A. I have an A-in that class and no matter what I've said the professor will not give me the A. No E.C. options or anything. I think Professors can be pains at any school.
I have no doubt that Eastern is easier which is why I stay here...I could have gone to Michigan when I applied last year, but after being advised by more than one person at the D school to stay at Eastern...I did. Like you said they really don't take the school into account all that much....so I will stay at Eastern and keep a 4.0 (or possibly a 3.95ish) without much effort and get into dental school (unfairly, IMHO) much easier than if I went to U of M and got a 3.4.
I would never say that U of M (or any school of it's caliber) isn't harder than EMU (or any school of it's caliber). What I'm not sure of is what exactly it is that makes one harder than the other.
The fact of the matter is that unless you attend several of the same classes at two schools you can't possibly make an accurate comparison. Like I said...there is no doubt that Michigan is a much better school, and more challenging...but taking one class and comparing the two schools just isn't realistic. The physics class you took at EMU may have been easier than the one at UM , but you don't know what made it easier. That physics professor at UM may be notoriously difficult, but that professor at EMU could likewise have been notoriously easy.
I know some people who are much smarter than me and they struggle to keep a 3.5+ while I don't have to work hard at all to do what I do....so it's obvious that it's harder to get good grades at UM, the only question I have is why.
I took Orgo 1 honors and it was all fill in the blank and orgo 2 was multiple choice test. I have seen them both and you can not assume that multiple choice test are always so much easier and that it is unfair that you had fill in the blanks and some other people had multiple choice because you do not know how chanllenging they can be. My Orgo 2 class would have a series of senthesis, then basically I word bank of reagents (probably 20 reagents) then the answer choices would be A-J and would read something along these lines: A. I and II then X and V then IIV with the roman numerals corresponding with reagents provided in the word bank. Yes it was nice to have reagents there and you could narrow down answer choices but there could be something as little as heat being the difference between 2 answer choices. So even though it was multiple choice it should have been free response because if you didn't know exactly what you were doing you would probably get t wring. I think the not reason they were not free response is because the professor couldn't grade 200+ exams. There was no TA that semester
If you ask me they were actually harder than fill in the blank because you would second guess yourself so much more. And "guessing" on a test with A-J answer choices was not in your favor.
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I also had a physics classes with choices A through E. And more than one could be the right answer. You had to bubble in all of them for full credit. (multiple choice)
A,B,C,D,E,AB,AC,AD,AE,BC,BD,BE,CD,CE,DE are all your choices.
I had another class where the final is 100% of your grade. Choose the incorrect answers and what he would do is take all questions from the old exams from the past 10 years and change one word to make them right and wrong. So ultimately if you studied the old exams and you werent 100% perfect on them, it would confuse you.
Class was so curved, 25+ was a D, 38+ was A C, 50+ was a B, and 70+ was an A.
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At my undergrad, most of the science class averages on exams are in the 60's. People have to study A LOT to do well. However, there are curves of course and easy classes. I don't think it is too difficult. But, compared to an "easier" college where I took physics...you def see a difference. Physics at my undergrad= meets 6 times a week/annoying labs/impossible exams with class averages below 50%. I took Calc based physics at a different university (not a cc or anything) and we ended up having no exams and the teacher gave everyone in the class an A O_O. (I lucked out). But, there is the difference between difficult and easy universities.
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I just want add that I have yet to have a multiple choice question in orgo I or II at EMU. I am not going to say that EMU is comparable to U of M but don't judge the difficulty of a school from taking one class there I am sure there are some easy teachers/classes at U of M. There are going to be smart people at any school you go to. Anyway I know it doesn't matter what I say or do some people will think a 3.0 at U of M is the equivalent of 4.2 at EMU (because we get all kinds of ec).
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What everyone is saying is definitely true. A professor can make a test as hard as they want to, multiple choice or not (our genetics class is like that,7-choice multiple choice answers, all of the above, none of the above, AB, BC, the whole deal). As far as the orgo exams at Michigan State, my friends have seen the exam and it appeared easier from what I heard. I don't know for myself, however. It could have been harder... not sure.
In terms of how easy a school is, I would see the overall rank of the school (doesn't really indicate too much, though). Obviously if you go to an Ivy League school, Berkeley, Stanford, or some top 20 school (or 30, 40, or w/e), then it's bound to be a challenging. If you're from a school that isn't ranked, it should be easier. Just see how hard the professors are challenging you. Are they giving you questions that require a lot of thinking and figuring out steps, are they giving you impossible questions, tricky questions, questions straight from the homework. Are they giving you E.C. or answers to exams if you ask them questions (my professor did at the other local college I went to for my class)? Are the averages really high or really low? Also, what are the students around you like (because that could determine the averages in the courses as well)? Is everyone motivated and freaking out, or are people generally apathetic. You might want to look at the overall highschool gpa, SAT scores, and/or ACT scores of the incoming classes. Do you study like crazy or take it easy and still manage really good grades (although some people can pull that off any school, for sure). Or do you study like crazy and barely manage to beat the average (sad face). It is what it is.
There are easy non-science classes here, for sure. I've taken one or two of them. As far as easy science classes here, however, there are close to none. Everyone is so competitive (the professors just make it worse) that you seriously have to work your butt off to get an A or A- for every single one of your science class ( at least the ones that count towards your BCP). If the first exam is easy and everyone gets a 90%, they'll make sure the next exam is a 60-65% average. As far as the 3.0 and 4.2 thing, you're right, that is rather unrealistic. Michigan is definitely easier than that and I'm sure it's extremely difficult to get straight A+ at EMU (let alone any college).
In terms of how easy a school is, I would see the overall rank of the school (doesn't really indicate too much, though). Obviously if you go to an Ivy League school, Berkeley, Stanford, or some top 20 school (or 30, 40, or w/e), then it's bound to be a challenging. If you're from a school that isn't ranked, it should be easier. Just see how hard the professors are challenging you. Are they giving you questions that require a lot of thinking and figuring out steps, are they giving you impossible questions, tricky questions, questions straight from the homework. Are they giving you E.C. or answers to exams if you ask them questions (my professor did at the other local college I went to for my class)? Are the averages really high or really low? Also, what are the students around you like (because that could determine the averages in the courses as well)? Is everyone motivated and freaking out, or are people generally apathetic. You might want to look at the overall highschool gpa, SAT scores, and/or ACT scores of the incoming classes. Do you study like crazy or take it easy and still manage really good grades (although some people can pull that off any school, for sure). Or do you study like crazy and barely manage to beat the average (sad face). It is what it is.
There are easy non-science classes here, for sure. I've taken one or two of them. As far as easy science classes here, however, there are close to none. Everyone is so competitive (the professors just make it worse) that you seriously have to work your butt off to get an A or A- for every single one of your science class ( at least the ones that count towards your BCP). If the first exam is easy and everyone gets a 90%, they'll make sure the next exam is a 60-65% average. As far as the 3.0 and 4.2 thing, you're right, that is rather unrealistic. Michigan is definitely easier than that and I'm sure it's extremely difficult to get straight A+ at EMU (let alone any college).
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This is not true. Some professors may do that but most just have nearly the whole test fill in the blank including filling out mechanisms. If the test is multiple choice the professor just makes the test that much harder. Also multiple choice is not necessarily easier because they try and trick you with the possible answers and you start second guessing yourself. I preferred the fill in blank tests.
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In my opinion it's a hard line to draw. Going to a CC is easier, I can tell you from experience. But you are exposed to the same material a university would teach you. Universities just test harder, because they can't have a class of 200 students all get As.
Yes, you work harder at a university, because you HAVE to. But that isn't to say you can't work hard and learn at a CC; your education is what you make of it and you are truly presented the same material. I took biology, chemistry and organic chemistry at a CC and I got a 26, 23 and 27 on my DAT respectively. I also hadn't taken any upper division sciences.
I've since transferred to the most competitive school in my state which is why I feel comfortable with my opinion. I study the same amount I did at my CC and I'm pulling As still; the difference is that here I HAVE to study this much, while at my CC I just chose to do so because I genuinely enjoyed the courses.
Yes, you work harder at a university, because you HAVE to. But that isn't to say you can't work hard and learn at a CC; your education is what you make of it and you are truly presented the same material. I took biology, chemistry and organic chemistry at a CC and I got a 26, 23 and 27 on my DAT respectively. I also hadn't taken any upper division sciences.
I've since transferred to the most competitive school in my state which is why I feel comfortable with my opinion. I study the same amount I did at my CC and I'm pulling As still; the difference is that here I HAVE to study this much, while at my CC I just chose to do so because I genuinely enjoyed the courses.
I totally agree with above. It is very hard line to draw and compare from school to school. but we all know from experience in applying that DENTAL SCHOOL APPLICATION (or any other health professional school) IS NUMBER GAME. If you have good stats no matter where you go (some school does not take CC credits) and do well in DAT then you will get interview from your choice and get closer to acceptance. I am sure there are exception to this but I am certain 85% of schools are like this.
My suggestion for future student who know that you want to get into dental school: go to easier school (probably much cheaper too) but make sure to get A's and learn it then do better than the people in "better/harder" school for DAT and you will be golden (better stats, higher DAT, saved $)
