How do residencies look at preceptor vs ward-based rotations?

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Couldn't find a recent thread on this, so thought I'd make a new thread to ask about this.

Most of my rotations are preceptor-based, including my current surgery rotation. I am considering using one of my electives for a ward-based surgery rotation because I heard doing well on a preceptor-based surgery rotation doesn't look "as good" and you need to do a ward-based one to show that you can handle it. Is there any truth to this? Or does it really just depend on the grade you get and whether you H/HP/P?

Our school isn't very good at communicating this stuff to us and take forever to respond to inquiries, so I'm hoping someone here is knowledgeable about this and can educate me. Thank you.
 
My learned colleague's comment illustrates precisely why DO school applicants need to do their homework. This information should be available in the school-specific threads.

The only upside is that med schools serve as feeder programs to residencies in the same way that UG schools serve as feeders to med schools, like, say, Brown -> Brown or the Long Island schools to those in the NYC area. Thus, a good DO program will have student crack open doors, and they tend to stay open. But poor programs will continue to tar the profession.

No ones going to go through the trouble of trying to sort out which is which. There's not even a ready way to do so. These type of rotations drag down the reputation of DO applicants as a whole as a result.
 
My learned colleague's comment illustrates precisely why DO school applicants need to do their homework. This information should be available in the school-specific threads.

The only upside is that med schools serve as feeder programs to residencies in the same way that UG schools serve as feeders to med schools, like, say, Brown -> Brown or the Long Island schools to those in the NYC area. Thus, a good DO program will have student crack open doors, and they tend to stay open. But poor programs will continue to tar the profession.

Too bad existing schools for some reason don't pressure the AOA or something...
 
There's no way to tell how rigorous your rotations were. The fact that you've only had preceptor based rotations is one of the main reasons residency programs shy away from taking DOs. Too much variability.


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There's no way to tell how rigorous your rotations were. The fact that you've only had preceptor based rotations is one of the main reasons residency programs shy away from taking DOs. Too much variability.


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What's your opinion on Parrotfish's comments on 3rd and 4th year?
 
Yeah, I do wish that ward-based rotations were more available to students. I value my learning and if that is the best way to learn, of course I will try and get as many as I can.

Anyway, thanks for the insight.
 
My notion is that students who think the clinical years are wasting their time are not making the the effort to make it worth their while.

We have a particular rotation site at a decent sized teaching hospital in a western state. We long no longer send our worst performing students there because while the good students always were doing things, the weakest students found a way to hide in the shadows.

To be fair, however, I also believe that there are some schools that simply have a really lousy preceptor-based system. I remember one poster, who is a practicing DO now, bitterly complaining about his/her school in AZ. This was a school that farmed their students out all over the state. I don't know if it's still the case, but at that time, all they did was basically shadow.


http://forums.studentdoctor.net/threads/things-i-hate-about-third-year.861932/page-15#post-17798846

there's another 2 in 16 and 17.

Basically he outright calls 3rd and 4th year a joke.
 
For what it's worth, I'm not complaining about my preceptor-based surgery rotation. I was simply asking how it looks to residencies, which you guys have made clear is indistinguishable. If anything, I'm learning a good amount on my current rotation. In just my first week, I've been getting a chance to scrub in, watch surgeries, learn suturing, etc. My preceptor is constantly giving me reading and asks me questions about it the next day, filling in knowledge gaps, etc. I have nothing to compare this experience to, but I feel like my preceptor is engaging me rather than just ignoring me outright. Yes, they do have to write notes sometimes and I'm left there just sitting. But that's when I pull out my books and start reading. I figure that's just part of the process, so gotta do what I can do make the most of it. At the end of the day, you need to get your learning one way or another.

I know that these situations are largely based off how much your attending/preceptor trusts you and how your preceptor's personality is in general (some days they might just not feel like teaching), but the general rule that you get back what you put in applies most of the time. If you demonstrate that you are doing your readings and are willing to learn, I believe you'll get a positive experience majority of the time.
 
What it will come down to is how well you do on your audition rotations (i.e. sub-i rotations). From the responses of the residents, some preceptor rotations try to mirror the residency experience as much as possible and this allows for them to adjust well enough to their sub-i's. However, there are also other times when the preceptor experience fails to prepare them as well. All the student can do is get their preceptor experience as close to residency team experience as possible. If you have electives, try to do a ward based rotation with a residency team to have your bases covered. This will serve you well in 4th year.
 
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Mimelin wrote a classic post.
To avoid being a bad student:
1) Show up on time
2) Look professional
3) Be available. You should never disapear and unreachable.
4) If asked to do something, either say, "Yes, I'll do it" or, "I don't feel comfortable with that, do you mind teaching me how to do it so I can do it next time?"
5) Do not ask "Anything that I can do right now?", ask, "How can I help?" or simply offer to do things, I hate scutting stuff to students, but if you offer to drop my notes off for me, or you feel comfortable finishing a dressing change on your own, if you say, "I can handle this" or just "I got this".

To be a good student:
1) Know your patients inside out and backwards. You are carrying less patients than your residents/attendings, you should know the details about your patient, even if they don't. You may not know what it means, but you should have the info available.
2) Always make an assessment, attempt to develop a plan. Start with a wide differential and focus in on the most likely diagnoses.
3) Read. Every night, even if it is for 15 minutes. Read about your patient or the procedure they are about to have or have had.
4) Be helpful. Getting labs, dropping notes in charts etc. Scut sucks, we all have to do it.
5) Tie and suture. I will walk anyone through how to do something, but I expect you to know the basics before showing up in the OR. If I show you how to do something, you should practice it at home and if you don't get it, ask me to show you again when we have down time.

To be a rock star:
1) Know your patients inside and out, but pay attention to what residents and attendings find important. Nobody will fault an MS3 for giving a laundry list of normal physical exam findings/labs, but eventually you have to learn to focus in on the important things so you can effectively communicate with colleagues down the road.
2) Develop skills. You are as useful as the skills that you possess. Things that an MS3 could potentially know how to do solo or with only resident observation:
a) Wet to dry dressings
b) Wound vac exchanges
c) Chest tube placements
d) Chest tube removals
e) Suturing - Simple, horizontal matress, vertical matress, sub Q, deep dermal, running
f) Central line placement
g) Central line removal
h) Fever workup
i) Getting outside hospital records
3) Learn to solve the common problems. Every rotation, go to the charge nurse on your main floor and ask them what the 10 most common intern calls are for. They should sound like this: Pain, fever, nausea, tachycardia, hypertension, electrolyte abnormalities etc. And then the specifics, Vascular: loss of previously dopplerable pulse, Gen Surg: change in abdominal exam findings etc. Then learn how to work up or manage those issues. As an MS4 on sub-I a good student will function like an intern. Those skills don't show up overnight, you have to develop them over time starting as an MS3.
4) Do not stop suturing or knot tieing. If you are interested in surgery, innate ability counts for something, but more important is practice. You should be able to do one handed ties left and right handed with ease. You should be efficient and accurate. When in conference, tie to your scrub bottoms or the chair next to you. If you have down time, have someone check your technique.
5) Think before cutting suture. What kind of suture are you cutting? Where are you cutting it? What is the purpose of this stitch? How many knots were tied? There is a logic behind suture tail length. While you will always have people that do things a particular way "just because", the vast majority will have a method behind their madness.

Preceptor-model is in no way can compare to ward-based rotation. So far, it seems like you're just getting the basic out of your surgery clerkship.
 
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For what it's worth, I'm not complaining about my preceptor-based surgery rotation. I was simply asking how it looks to residencies, which you guys have made clear is indistinguishable. If anything, I'm learning a good amount on my current rotation. In just my first week, I've been getting a chance to scrub in, watch surgeries, learn suturing, etc. My preceptor is constantly giving me reading and asks me questions about it the next day, filling in knowledge gaps, etc. I have nothing to compare this experience to, but I feel like my preceptor is engaging me rather than just ignoring me outright. Yes, they do have to write notes sometimes and I'm left there just sitting. But that's when I pull out my books and start reading. I figure that's just part of the process, so gotta do what I can do make the most of it. At the end of the day, you need to get your learning one way or another.

I know that these situations are largely based off how much your attending/preceptor trusts you and how your preceptor's personality is in general (some days they might just not feel like teaching), but the general rule that you get back what you put in applies most of the time. If you demonstrate that you are doing your readings and are willing to learn, I believe you'll get a positive experience majority of the time.

As far as rotations go, that actually doesn't sound half bad. It's not quite as good as being exposed to a resident-driven care team in a normal teaching hospital, but if the preceptor is engaging you, pimping you, getting you to scrub in and participate in surgeries, getting you to read etc then that's 90% of the experience right there. These rotations go wrong when the preceptor does none of those things.

Occasionally, these preceptor situations can actually result in an exceptionally good rotation if the preceptor is really interested in teaching and you essentially get a one-on-one 'tutoring' experience in the specialty.

It's still not as good as being with residents overall (although there's examples of med students getting lousy experiences under residents as well).
 
My notion is that students who think the clinical years are wasting their time are not making the the effort to make it worth their while.

We have a particular rotation site at a decent sized teaching hospital in a western state. We long no longer send our worst performing students there because while the good students always were doing things, the weakest students found a way to hide in the shadows.

To be fair, however, I also believe that there are some schools that simply have a really lousy preceptor-based system. I remember one poster, who is a practicing DO now, bitterly complaining about his/her school in AZ. This was a school that farmed their students out all over the state. I don't know if it's still the case, but at that time, all they did was basically shadow.


Beyond sad. Just, why?
 
This is an issue for me. One of the reasons for going this route over staying is nursing was the ward-based residency programs over preceptor programs. Sigh. I can't emphasize enough how discouraging this is to read.
 
As many as you can get?

Surgery, medicine, peds, OB/gyn should absolutely be.

The others that are a balance of inpatient and outpatient medicine - ideally the rotation should give you an exposure to both. The inpatient psych population is very different than what you'll get exposed to at a random psychiatrists office.

This is good to know, thank you for sharing.
 
As a DO who made plans early on to go to an ACGME residency, this is one of the key points that (most of) the DO schools will never tell you. Although the mode of rotation is indistinguishable on a transcript and there are great individual preceptors out there, a wards-based experience with resident coverage is of huge benefit when it comes to preparing for the actual job you will be employed to do: be a resident.

The problem with having an individual preceptor, at least in an inpatient setting, is that, depending of course on your preceptor's approach, you may not really have any idea about all of the other stuff residents do for patients when it is not time for rounds, surgeries, etc. Private "volunteer" attendings might have PAs or NPs who do a lot of the pre-op, follow up work, dispo planning. Since they don't have a resident to write the billable note that they can sign, you might not get very many opportunities to practice that skill since they will have to duplicate it anyway. Thats not even to mention med recs, records requests, all the little extras that usually find some way to be done by ancillary staff or midlevels when there isn't a resident to do it. If you don't have exposure to these tasks it can come as a shock when you make it to residency.

The other area it is probably overlooked is for the social dynamics aspect. Learning how to behave in a team with junior and senior residents is important. It sounds silly, but one of the biggest skills I got from specifically scheduling residency-based rotations is how to look competent without making other people look bad or making them want to smack you.

I had to work really hard to schedule rotations at academic programs during my 4th year. From my school's perspective, they didn't really care whether I did them inpatient, outpatient, preceptor or other. I didn't have an advisor within my desired field to help me figure out what I needed to do to help my application or where to apply. I thankfully had a really great local rotations coordinator who listened to me about what my goals were and what I had learned by my own personal research and helped me get those things scheduled, even with her own personal bias toward AOA programs. And here nearing the end of my intern year I can say it paid off, I didn't have an awful time getting started.

That being said, having a few preceptor based rotations sprinkled here and there during medical school can be awesome for the access you get to the attendings, procedures, etc. Just wish that they were the exception rather than the rule and that people like me didn't have to work as hard to hunt down the other kind of experience.

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